Glimpses into the beauty of the Rasa-lila, The Monk’s Podcast 134 with Garuda Prabhu

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna. Welcome back to the monk’s podcast. Hare Krishna.
So, today we are discussing a topic exactly opposite of what a monk should be discussing. The Rasleela. Yes, excellent.
Not only that, we are going to go a little deeper into the Rasleela. Last time I think we discussed about setting the scene why there are valid concerns and reservations about discussing the Rasleela because it can be so easily misunderstood. And yet at the same time, that is the heart of our tradition.
And so many of our Acharyas have written about it. And you talk about your experiences in academia, how you were in a sense pushed to write about it. And then that’s how you wrote and then not only are you relishing but through your book you are sharing that taste with so many others.
And we as devotees, we all need to grow up in our spirituality so that, that which is such a central part of our legacy, we can learn to intellectually, devotionally relish it and also we need to be able to explain it in a way that is intelligible for others. Otherwise we may just say that, oh, it is all transcendental. But people are not going to accept it as transcendental and then they will give their own interpretations.
So you are being able to, you are authoritative to academic explanation. And in general, as devotees, if we are equipped to do that, then it is both for our own spiritual growth, spiritual nourishment, and also for others’ spiritual protection from misunderstanding that we need to understand this. Cautiously, but we need to understand.
Yes. Yes, Prabhupada. And, you know, Chaitanya Charanji, Prabhupada’s warnings his continuous explanations of how the rasa dance should be understood.
His deep respect for such a such an exalted vision. I just I just love it because I don’t hear this sometimes on the part of other Vaishnavas. Oh, true.
It is easy it is too easy to speak about it too freely. So there is a very careful balance here. I mean, look, just on Dandavats, there was a Prabhupada saying Krishna’s rasa-lila should not be discussed in public meeting.
It is most confidential. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu never discussed He discussed Krishna’s pastimes, lila with gopis, with his very confidential circle. Now, this is so wonderful.
But here is the tension. It would be tantamount to a Christian saying I cannot discuss Jesus’s crucifixion on the cross. Yes, that is a very graphic example you gave last time.
That we talked about last time, right? So, on the one hand, it is the most beautiful, it is the beatific vision that we have to offer the world. And on the other hand, it is so precious. Imagine, if I had a huge emerald this big, how many people am I going to show that emerald to? It is worth millions upon millions upon millions of dollars.
But more than that, dollars you can get anywhere. How many people can find an emerald this big and so beautifully cut? This is our rasa panchadhyayi. This is our emerald.
Our jewel. Sarva lila chudamani. Vishwanatha says the crown jewel of all lilas.
The crown jewel. So, it is so precious Chaitanya Charanjee. So, on the one hand, you don’t show that jewel, literally, you know, a great emerald, to everybody.
Because, you know what? Someone could steal it. The example of someone stealing the rasa lila is to abuse it. Stealing its dignity.
Its spiritual dignity. So, Prabhupada, his great concern, do you know, in the Krishna book, after he describes the rasa lila in the five chapters, chapters 29 through 33, as it is in the Bhagavata, he weaves occasional statements about how this should not be seen in an ordinary fashion and so on. Fine.
But at the end of chapter 5, or, you know, the 33rd chapter in Krishna book, he spends 18 paragraphs. I counted this morning. 18 paragraphs trying to give the reader a chaste vision of the rasa panchadhyayi, of the rasa dance.
18 thick paragraphs. there’s the jewel. I love the words you’re using.
A chaste understanding and stealing its spiritual dignity. Yeah. So, it’s… And Chaitanya Charan, do you take a jewel like that and just, like, put it on the shelf? No.
No. You wrap it in silk. You then put it in a beautiful setting of a box, maybe.
Maybe even a carved box. I mean, do you just throw that jewel around like it’s some kind of, you know, piece of glass? That’s taking it cheaply. So, Prabhupada talked about the Advaitins taking it cheaply.
He talked about the Sahajiyas taking it cheaply. He talked about the mundane, worldly person whose senses are out of control taking it cheaply. He talked about persons who felt like they could reenact the Raslila to take advantage of other women.
I mean, and so on. So, with all the ways that are so degraded, he wanted to guard the Raslila. So, it’s clear, you know, how people with the mundane consciousness or Sahajiyas would take it cheaply.
How would Advaitins take it cheaply? Just consider it to be the Jiva merging with the Lord as symbolic? Well, the Advaitin, the extreme Advaitin takes everything cheaply. You know, nothing has any value except for the Brahman. Brahma Satyam Jagan Mithya.
So, everything is false, except for Brahman, including the Rasapanchayat. Including the Raslila. So, everything is reduced.
The issue here is to be reductive. In fact, if you look at the ten aparads, naam aparads, it’s all about reducing the holy names to something less than what they really are. These are ten forms of reductionism.
That’s the structure of an aparad. Here, I’ll commit an aparad with you, okay? Oh, Chaitanya Charan, you’re nothing but a, you know, a Brahmachari who wears glasses. That’s all you are.
You make fun of me in a way that is fun. Yes, to illustrate. Yes, I use you as an illustration.
But you see, that’s so reductive. You’re so much more than a Brahmachari. You’re a bhakta.
You’re so much more than someone with spectacles. You’re someone who has deeper vision than simply gazing out through a lens into the world. You’re someone to be deeply appreciated and understood.
This is aparad. It literally means against or away from loving worship. To be moved away from loving worship.
In effect, the structure, the internal structure of an aparad is reductionistic sort of a meltdown, a kind of reductionistic meltdown of something. To discount the value of something. Take the jewel, for example.
Oh, that’s just worth, you know, a hundred bucks. I’ll give you a hundred bucks for it. Oh, is that right? An emerald of that size.
That’s the discounting, the devaluing of the holy names. We can do this too easily in ten different ways. Prabhupada in 18 paragraphs in the fifth chapter discussing the Raslila, he wants to have the reader guard against the different reductionistic ways of seeing the Raslila.
It’s powerful. You know, now look, at the end of the Raslila, the last verse says that one who is filled with faith, who hears or describes this play, this Lila, having regained the highest devotion for the beloved Lord, bhaktim param, right? Bhaktim param, has lust, kama, the disease of the heart, kridh rogam, kridh rogam, quickly removed without delay. Such a person is peaceful and wise.
Dhyana. So, Chaitanya Charanjee, I ask you, what is our process if it is not healing from the kridh rogam, the disease of the heart, and attaining the highest, purest love that can be offered to the divine and offered to all living beings? Is there anything else in which we’re engaged here? I think not. That’s true.
So, overall, I am just, so, you are in one sense, you could say just as Prabhupada wrote those purports, or wrote those paragraphs, 18 paragraphs, to help us approach it chastely. So, I think you are also doing that as we, before we today go into this discussion. It’s important that, although we had an entire podcast on this, it’s important to appreciate Prabhupada for what he did.
Living in India, Rasleela is, in one sense, so easily accessible, and ironically, the more easily accessible it is, the less accessible it becomes. Very nicely put. Yeah.
People think they already understand it and then they don’t, they don’t even try to clarify their misunderstandings. Yes. I remember I had a friend who I entered into engineering and he entered into arts and in their arts, in India, humanities is called arts.
So, we have science, arts and commerce. So, in arts, so, in his, in the particular field he was studying, they had a translation of Geet Govinda as an example of Indian literature to study. Now, they just studied it from a literary perspective but there was no explanation of what its moral implications or devotional dimensions were and he came out of that reading with a very very distorted understanding of Krishna.
Yes. So, which is so unfortunate. So, many years later I met him and then I was, I had been introduced to Bhakti, I had read your book.
So, I explained to him. So, he said that yes, I also thought that maybe my understanding was not right but approaching the Geet Govinda only as literature, it is of course a beautiful poem, but to approach it only from literary dimensions is to not only make misunderstanding probable, it’s almost to make misunderstanding inevitable. Yeah, let me counter that slightly.
But only slightly Chaitanya Charanjee because the author himself, Jayadeva Goswami, I believe as early as the second or third verse in his great 12 chapter poem says that even if you read this poem as a beautiful piece of literature or if you read it to enter into the lovely Leela of Radha and Krishna may you be blessed or something to that effect. And I have translated that verse somewhere and I don’t have it right off hand here. So Jayadeva himself says that you can read it as a piece of literature and still there will be benefit he says.
Now from a Bhakta’s point of view, so what I think is interesting about this is that Jayadeva had a sense that people would read it not as a Bhakta but as a piece of literature. That’s interesting. Is that interesting? Now, what does Jayadeva Goswami launch the reader in the very first chapter? The Shatastotra is there in the beginning, isn’t it? Exactly.
These are glorifications of Krishna in all of his incarnations and the avatar you know a plethora of avatars and beautiful Jayadeva Hari and the refrain and so on. So the reader is supposed to bathe one’s consciousness and purify one’s consciousness with the Aishwarya before he or she would then enter into the 11 chapters with the Madhurya. Beautifully put.
So Prabhupada wanted to… I appreciate your clarification. I feel that in Jayadeva Goswami’s literary environment the poem would have been appreciated for its literary expertise without being misunderstood morally. But in today’s world it is required.
Good. Good. Now you have corrected me.
That’s good. Excellent. And I agree with you.
I agree with you. I appreciate when devotees also write especially great Acharyas they are not just writing a book for the sake of writing. They are also artistically expert.
Gopal Champu is filled with beautiful metaphors and it’s not just a work of devotion it’s a work of literature also. So it’s also like that. That’s right.
That’s right. So yes. And what you just said about reading this 12th century work in the 21st century that is extra problematic.
And this is exactly, what you said is exactly what Prabhupada speaks to. That’s right. Whereas, you know, in the past it really wouldn’t have to have been addressed so intensively the way Prabhupada does.
At the same time, we do have the example of Mahaprabhu Gauranga in the 8th chapter of Madhya Lila of the Chittanatharita by Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami where he enters into this catechismal dialogue with Ramananda Raya that is absolutely beautiful where he pushes Ramananda Raya to go deeper and deeper and deeper. You know, Mahaprabhu kept saying Oh, that’s Vaya. Oh, that’s external.
That’s external. Go deeper. Kept pushing him and pushing him and pushing him.
And he was pushed so far at a certain point Mahaprabhu covered his mouth. At a certain point Mahaprabhu said these certain things that are very, very, very precious intimate central things to the Madhya Lilas certain things just don’t get said. Now, a Sahajiya will come along and parade it all around the place.
And this is what Prabhupada was, you know, fearful of. So, Prabhupada, with these caveats, can we enter into the Raas Lila now? Yes. Following Prabhupada, you’ve also given a good caution.
Yes. And, you know, one of the things one of the most exquisitely beautiful theological tropes of our tradition is what stands right in front of us, what stares us all right in our faces. Okay.
It’s Krishna’s call. It starts with, yeah. Everything that he is the only deity and the supreme deity at that who sends out a love call.
And, you know, prior to the start of the Raasapanchadhyay in chapter 29 of the Dasamaskanda is chapter 21 the Venugita. Okay. It’s all about the flute and the sound, the flute call.
Thus, the forest was filled with clear autumn waters and gentle breezes carrying the sweet scent of lotus flowers. Entering that scene together with cows and cowherd friends a chuta appeared. So the scene is being set for the sound of Krishna’s flute.
Among groves of flowering trees and lakes, rivers, and hills resounding with flocks of birds and swarming maddened bees. So these verses are exquisitely beautiful. You know my Sanskrit professor at Harvard who was the most well-known Sanskritist in the Western world who read many languages Middle Eastern and South Asian languages and he read poetry.
He was an expert in poetry and he said that the Bhagavata Raslila and the Bhagavata Dasamaskanda in general but speaking of the Vrajlilas he said this is the most enchanting poem ever written. Really? Yes. Amazing.
And he I used to study with him and he would read some of these poetic passages which is exquisite literature, exquisite poetry. So even on a level of art this these verses have reached the very top of exquisite literary achievement. Maybe sometime if possible you could share even the Sanskrit poetry and explain one or two verses if you would like.
What is so beautifully artistic about them. Yes. We can certainly do that.
Of course you know one thing that we’ll have to do is just even just even talking about the the first verse of the Raslila it’s it’s exquisite poetry. I mean it’s so beautiful and you know so what I’m trying to say here is that even prior to reading the Rasa Panchayati, the five chapters devoted to the Rasa there is several chapters earlier a whole you know exquisite you know chapter on Krishna’s flute and the verses that help one appreciate the power of this love call. So while tending the cows he began to play his flute.
This is your translation isn’t it? Yes. Yes indeed. Those young women of Vraja were aroused by passion after hearing the song of his flute.
Some of them in his absence were moved to describe the qualities of Krishna to their intimate friends. As they began to describe him, they remembered the playful activities of Krishna. Their minds again became disturbed by the force of passion and they could no longer speak.
Now let me describe what’s happening here Chaitanya Charanjee. So the Vraja go because in the afternoon while Krishna’s out somewhere in the pastures with the cows and his boyfriends the gopis are doing their housework and they’re all talking about Krishna and when they talk about Krishna the kata gets so sweet and so intense they freeze. They freeze.
And then in the back in the far distance they hear the sound of Krishna’s flute and that arouses them again and then they start talking about Krishna and then it becomes so intense that they freeze in ecstasy. And then in the far distance they hear the sound of Krishna’s flute and they get caught in this cycle all day long. So their kata gets so intense that they freeze but then they hear the sound of Krishna’s flute in the background and that arouses them to more kata and then they freeze and the cycle just keeps going they’re caught forever in this cycle.
This is talked about in the commentaries. That’s amazing. Yeah.
So what we have in this beautiful passage are you know the sheer power of Krishna’s flute to arouse all non-moving things and cause them to move and all moving things to cause them to freeze. Yes. So these images you know they’re so beautiful.
Just so beautiful. And all of this is preparation for the first verse of the Rasa Panchadhyayi. Now the Rasa Panchadhyayi consists of 173 verses.
173 okay. Okay. And each of the five chapters are divided up you know among those 173 verses.
The first chapter having the most verses, 48 verses. And it’s you know it’s a very eventful very eventful first chapter. And what I found what I discovered is that these five chapters beautifully conform to the conventional structure of classical Sanskrit dramaturgy.
Which usually has the minimal of five chapters or five acts you could say to ten acts I believe it is. Okay. That’s been a while since I reviewed this.
But so this told me that actually this needs to be this passage needs to be appreciated as an extraordinary you know drama. I mean what else is Leela but a dramatic play of the divine. Beautiful.
So in a literal sense it has been written like a you could say a poetic play. Yes. Yeah.
That’s right. Exactly. Precisely.
So what we’ve got here then in the first so that’s why I you know in the book I actually have something called the dramatist persona. And you’ve got in the order of appearance which I say here right. Just quickly just showing that you know first of all we’ve got Shuka the narrator the beloved Lord Krishna in all these names and epithets.
The Gopis we’ve got Pariksit the king to whom Shukadev narrates the story. We’ve got the special Gopi involved. Of course the Gopis are referred to collectively as all of the Gopis as a partial group of devotees and sometimes as individual Gopis often speaking on behalf of other Gopis.
So you see I’ve analysed this very carefully. Okay. Non-speaking participants.
Yogamaya. Coward men. Families of relatives.
Cows. Trees, plants, flowers and vines. Tulasi.
The earth. Wife of the deer. Bees.
Denizens of the heavens and their wives. Gandharva singers and their wives. So it’s quite a it’s quite a piece right.
So then of course the scenes. Okay. So then we get to the very first act and the very first verse.
If I can just do that. There we go. Make it a little bit bigger.
Okay good. Bhagavan So this is such a famous verse. Even the beloved lord seeing those nights in autumn filled with blooming jasmine flowers turned his mind toward love’s delights fully taking refuge in Yogamaya’s elusive powers.
Now let me explain some things about this first verse. First of all the four principle you know entities of this Leela are presented here in. And the divine intention of Krishna is presented here.
Everything is packed in. And as good Sanskrit dramaturgy the first verse is kind of like the Bija verse for the whole drama. So here I found the beloved lord.
Okay let’s count. The beloved lord is one two the scenery of autumn. Right? Three is Yogamaya.
Right? Where are the Vrajikas? Because they’re hidden in metaphor. Yes. Yes.
So so actually they’re hidden in the word ratri. Bhagavan apita ratri those nights. It turns out and believe it or not I discovered this in a dream.
Yes. I’ve been struggling with this first verse for months. I said to my wife I said look the first verse of the Raslila is just like a Bija.
It’s the whole text. Everything’s there. The principal entity, the principal features of the text are right there.
There’s the lord, there’s the scenery and there’s Yogamaya. And she said well where are the Gopis? Hmm. Well they’ve got to be there.
I mean they have to be there. Remember the feminine voice in the Rasapacharya is the dominant voice. More than any other chapter of the whole Bhagavata, the 335 chapters of the Bhagavata the dominant voice of these five chapters is the voice of the Vrajikopikas.
So how in the world could the Bija verse not contain the Vrajikopikas? Hmm. For months I was struggling with this, pondering this, pacing around the house. I couldn’t figure it out.
She turned the chart. So one night I’m dreaming about this verse. I’m actually translating it in my head.
In the dream. And suddenly it came to me. Ratri.
Those nights. Ta ratri. Is a metaphorically a sort of how shall we say this verse has a complex metaphor that delivers both the scenery but also the Gopis at the same time.
Why? How does it do that? The word for night is is ratra. Here the word is feminine, ratri and it is plural. Ratri also happens to be the Vedic goddess of the night.
Okay. And these Vrajikopikas are the goddesses of night who come out at night when they hear Krishna’s love call. So and the forest in autumn filled with blooming jasmine flowers.
The forest also is an imagery of the black night with the bright jasmine flowers decorating the night just as the dark hair of the Vedic goddesses are decorated with the jasmine on the braid of the hair. Oh, okay. That’s why I said it’s a complex or extended metaphor.
That’s right. It is. And of course I can spend several hours explaining what metaphor is, what complex and it’s not just a complex metaphor but it’s a circuitous complex metaphor.
It’s very complex. I could go on and on about this and I actually have charts. I mean I teach this stuff, you know.
So he turned his mind toward love. What is it that inspired Krishna to play his flute that night? It was when he sees these nights. So it’s the beauty of seeing but it also reminded Krishna of the Vrajikopikas whose hair and braids were decorated with the jasmine flowers.
Also what’s happening here is jasmine blooming at night in autumn? Uh-uh. Never happens. Jasmine blooms in the spring and the summer.
So something extraordinary is happening here. And you know what? When the Vrajikopikas leave their homes at night and go to the forest to see Krishna, they’re also night-blooming jasmine in their actions. They’re not supposed to be blooming at night.
In autumn, jasmine’s not supposed to be blooming. See all the metaphor? It’s too rich to… It’s too much for one podcast. It just goes on and this… It’s so deep, Chaitanya Charanjee.
This one verse is so deep. We will never have enough podcasts to fully explain the depth of the Raslila verses. So he turned his mind toward love’s delights, fully taking refuge in Yoga Mahayana’s elusive powers.
Let me explain something to you here. Throughout the whole Bhagavatam, Krishna and Yogamaya, their relationship is, you know, described a little bit, but never in no other Lila ever, ever, ever is it described that Krishna takes full refuge in Yogamaya. He gives himself up to Yogamaya.
He says, look, you take over. I’m too enthralled with the Vrajikopikas. You take over.
Okay. Okay. Yogamaya Upashrita.
Upashrita. Not Ashrita. Upashrita.
In other words, fully taking refuge. He fully submits himself to the energy of divine love. This is our tradition, Chittendranjanji.
We don’t worship God as a he merely. Goddess as a she merely. We worship the divine they and the love between them.
This is our worship. We are a tradition that worships love, divine love, that exists between Ratha and Krishna and in Ratha and in Krishna. Of course, the seventh line of Gayatri Mantra, you know the word for love there, is Ananga, without limbs, without form.
Yes. Love is formless. Formless.
Yes, but it occurs between Ratha and Krishna. When we go to the temple what do you see there? You see Ratha and Krishna standing there, gazing at us while he’s playing the flute. Now, between you and me, Chittendranjanji, Krishna has no need to play the flute when he’s got Ratha by his side.
That’s the ultimate benefit for Krishna when he plays the flute. He plays the flute to attract Ratha. Hmm.
Once Ratha is there, there’s no need for the flute. Okay. The one for whom I’m playing is already with me now.
Yeah, I mean, so what are we worshipping in the mandir all over the movement? What did Prabhupada give us? Ratha, Krishna. But they are both not facing one another, but they are turned to us, gazing out at us, both calling us to their love. Beautiful.
They are both calling us to their love. This is what we are about. And who is Ratha? She is the sum total of the Vrajagopikas and the Rasmandala.
Because each of the Gopis and the Rasmandala are but the embodiments of each one of her emotions. So when we stare at Ratha, Krishna, we’re actually staring at the Rasmandala. It is the Rasa dance.
Beautiful. So in one sense, in Mayapur, we have the Ashtasakhis actually visible for us. But even if they are not visible, they are, you could say, implicitly there in Radharani itself.
Every Radha, Krishna, Archa, Vigraha is a condensation, a distillation of the Rasmandala. And vice versa. Every Rasmandala is a symbolic representation of Radha, Krishna.
Because it’s explained in the Chaitanya Charita Marita that each of the Vrajagopikas are but the embodiments of each of Radha’s emotions. And Krishna attends each one by duplicating himself multiple times to attend each one of Radha’s emotions. Each one of Radha’s expansions? Emotions.
That’s right. Emotions. Okay.
Excuse me. So what we’ve got here is a display of divine love in its ultimate glory. And this is what the Rasalila is all about.
This is what Radha, Krishna worship is all about. So when you said that on the altar they’re not facing each other, they’re calling us. They’re gazing out? You’ve seen for many years now, Chaitanya Charanjee.
I am now seen for 55 years. Or no, 50 years. Okay.
They’re gazing out at us collectively calling us. Radha doesn’t play the flute but she’s so close to Krishna. They’re both calling us.
They’re not looking at each other. They’re calling us to their love. That Ananga then between them, which is so powerful, manifests in Mahaprabhu Garanga.
He is the manifestation of the love between Radha and Krishna. Now it takes form. This is our theology.
It’s beautiful. So, now when Krishna, I really appreciate the point you could go and expound on this verse more and more. But if we can just go ahead.
So when Krishna calls, at that time the setting is quite dramatic. Krishna is calling at night and then the Gopis have to fight literally to, I mean, they have the opposition of the life family members and then in one sense they are helplessly drawn. the way the way the whole narration happens it’s love but there is also, it’s not just sweet love.
There is anxiety, there is agitation, there is conflict and then the love manifests. The opportunity for expressing love comes forth. Yes.
Okay, so you see what happens in this stage of the setting here. Well, I mean, the verse that comes after the first verse is just such exquisite poetry. It’s irresistible.
This poetry is absolutely exquisite. I mean, it’s just there’s just nothing as beautiful as this poetry. Then the moon king among stars rose, spreading soothing reddish rays over the face of the eastern horizon, dispelling the sorrow from those who looked on as a lover caresses his beloved’s blushed face, consoling her after long separation.
So this is so the moon is rising and it’s spreading soothing reddish rays just in the way that when a beloved or when a lover touches his beloved’s face, she blushes. So the horizon is blushing with the reddish rays and dispelling the sorrow looked on. So it’s relief.
You know, it’s a relief from that long hot day that’s the autumn night is gloriously displaying these soothing magnificent colours. And then, of course, seeing lotus flowers bloom and the perfect circle of the moon beaming like the face of Rama, reddish as fresh kumkuma, seeing the forest coloured by the moon’s gentle rays, he began to make sweet music, melting the hearts of fair maidens with beautiful eyes. Chaitanya Charanjee, what is our tradition about if it is not to melt our hearts? Correct me, please.
Is this not our tradition? Are we not supposed to have our hearts melted by the sounds of the holy names of the Mahamantra? Are we not supposed to have our hearts melted with the gazing of Darshan of Radha and Krishna? Hmm. This is what it’s all about. The love call, the holy names, the sounding of the holy names is epiphenomenal.
Epiphenomenal. Epiphenomenal. First comes the sound of Krishna’s call.
Then we answer the call. Ultimately the perfect chanting of the Mahamantra is the response to Krishna’s love call. So now you are giving us a vision by which while this is the most exalted level of love, it’s also something which we can enter into from our level also.
That’s right, Chetan and Charanji. I mean, you know, all the devotees love looking at Radha and Krishna. Who doesn’t love looking at Radha and Krishna? We love it.
We adore it. They’re so beautiful. Right? Oh Radha, Hare.
Oh Radha, you are beautiful. Krishna, you know, Krishna, you are magnificent. You’re beautiful.
And then Hare Krishna again, and then Krishna, Krishna. Oh my God, you’re so beautiful. Krishna, Krishna, you’re so beautiful.
Hare, Hare. Oh Radha, you’re just beautiful. The magnificence of their visage and their beautiful garments and there’s nothing more beautiful to the bhakta than Radha and Krishna.
So, we’re all about worshipping divine beauty which is something that comes from their divine love. They’re supremely beautiful because they’re supremely loving. Now, jumping to the end of my book, I conclude that the Maha Mantra is a sonic replication of the Ras Mandala of Rajagopika’s and Krishna’s.
It’s the only mantra that is circuitous. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, Hare Krishna, Hare. It doesn’t stop.
Neither does the Ras Mandala stop. It’s a circle, it’s the only mantra that is a circle. And that is because it’s a sonic replication of the divine dancers in the Ras Mandala.
When Prabhupada says, when you chant the Mahamantra, Krishna’s dancing on your tongue, right? He’s well known for saying that, right? True. Do you think Krishna’s alone dancing on your tongue? Don’t be ridiculous. Okay, yeah, Hare Krishna and Radha Krishna together.
That’s right. So then, of course, finally in verse four, upon hearing that sweet music, their passion for him swelling, the young women of Vraja, whose minds were captured by Krishna, unaware of one another, ran off toward the place where their beloved was waiting with their earrings swinging wildly. Javalola kundala, Javalola kundala.
You can almost hear it in Sanskrit. So then the next verses are explaining what you were just saying earlier, Chittanacharjee. They were just dropping everything.
They were dropping the milking of the cows, the milking had ceased, the milk was boiling over on the stove, leaving cakes in the hearth. They suddenly stopped feeding their children, dressing themselves. They even left their husbands, Krishna forbid.
And they were just completely… And you know what? There’s a sense in which this is kind of a death narrative, at least symbolically. Why? Look what the narrator says, Shuka. Let me see here.
They relinquished their bodies, composed of physical elements, and any worldly bondage was instantly destroyed. So this is kind of a death. I mean, when you’re… A soul relinquishes the body composed of physical elements, that’s called death.
Now, so in effect, the gopis left their bodies to go and join Krishna in the forest. But they also had another body to replace their physical body. And that was an illusory body that Yogamai arranged.
So many of the families thought that these Vrajagopikas never left. At the same time, as you mentioned, some of the gopis were unable to leave and they had gone inside their homes. With eyes closed, fully absorbed in love, they meditated upon Krishna.
So if they couldn’t go out to the forest, they could go into their hearts and Krishna could be found in either place. Beautiful. So this is the kind of sacrifice.
So what can we learn from the Vrajagopikas? We can be inspired by their absolute sacrifice, whether it be social status, whether it be renunciation of family, whether it be, and again, we’re not to imitate the gopis, but we’re to be inspired by their level of intense love for divinity. So again, Prabhupada warned us against anukara, imitation, but he urged us to follow, anusara. And anusara means to follow what naturally flows from the object of inspiration.
So sara means flow and anu means to follow what flows from the divine lila. We don’t imitate lila because that becomes very, well, that becomes blasphemous. You know, but we follow, we are inspired by what naturally flows from the lila to us.
And you know what Chaitanya Charanjee, that will be different for different devotees. It depends on whether one is more at the Kanishka level or the Madhyava level or the Uttama level. It’s how much that flow we can absorb.
The higher, more advanced we are, the greater receptivity, the more we will embrace the lila. So this is quite marvellous stuff, isn’t it? And this is, I was just wondering that this could completely transport a person. Even despite we being on technology and being separated, there’s so much capacity for this to transport consciousness to a completely higher level.
Absolutely. And that’s what it’s meant to do. So we should not shy away from it and renounce the Ras Lila.
That’s like renouncing our hearts. At the same time- Renouncing our hearts. Oh God, what a way of putting it, yeah.
Yeah, it’s like renouncing our hearts. But at the same time, we must enter into it very, very carefully and respectfully with a proper guide and proper inspiration. But it would be as if I can’t go into the temple, Chaitanya Charanjee, because I can’t gaze at Radha and Krishna.
They’re calling me and I can’t respond to the call. So I’m not gonna have darshan. No, we go into the temple to learn how to respond to their call.
They’re standing there for an eternity. They’re waiting for us to respond. Our response is our return call of the Maha Mantra.
And the Maha Mantra is the sonic replication, ultimately, the sonic replication of the Ras Mandir. A recognition of how we can embrace their love and serve their love. Beautiful.
This is our perfection, Chaitanya Charanjee. This is the whole reason we’re living. If not for this, what? My job? You know, my mundane activities in the world? No.
This pales by comparison, you know. It’s amazing. It’s true, and I’m still stuck with the point that we are, say, locking away our hearts.
What did we say exactly? If we lock away our hearts, then we are not actually accessing the Ras Neela. So this is what we live for. That’s beautiful.
So while you’re sharing the verse, and you’re explaining the verses, I see you have two, three things. At one level, we could go on for many, many podcasts on this. Of course, we’ll give links to your book and people can, our readers, viewers can read the book also.
I thought maybe I can ask three, four major questions, and then you can elaborate as you like. Because although it would be lovely, I don’t think we can go verse by verse into the entire Ras Neela on podcast. It would be wonderful, but I would love to have your discussion, association on many other topics also.
Yes. So you mentioned this one point about that the gopis, they can’t go out, go in. They go in and they meet Krishna over there.
So there is some sense of ambiguity where you said the gopis, they leave one body behind, or the Mayogamaya fashions the body, and then at the same time, they have opposition. So what it means, if already a body is fashioned, then why is there opposition? What exactly, so this, the gopis struggle is to say that, in life, there are gonna be struggles. There’s going to be struggles.
There are gonna be things that come up. Sickness, losses, there will always be struggles. Yes, this is the beautiful way that the Leela teaches us.
Leela does two things, Chaitanya Charanjee. Leela is self-nourishing. That is to say, it nourishes itself.
It nourishes its own internal activity and Leela, the activity of the Leela on the one hand. So this Leela on the one hand is, it’s self-perpetuating the energy within the Leela on the one hand, but on the external, that’s internal. Externally, the Leela is meant to teach us.
It’s meant to teach us. So what does the behaviour of the Vrajagopika teach us? It teaches us that we have to strive no matter what the obstacles. And it also teaches us that the death of a bhakta is something where we can burst out into the forest of Krishna’s love.
Beautiful, death is something similar to what you told earlier in the podcast. When a devotee dies, it is their body is no longer enough to contain their love, to express their love. Exactly.
It’s the same, bursts out. It bursts out. This is what the Vrajagopikas are doing.
They’re bursting out of their physical bodies to go to the forest of divine love. And this is what we’re all meant to do. Death is not a withering away.
Death is a blossoming out of the bulb that we’ve been contained in. It’s a blossoming of the seed of what lies dormant within our hearts. Beautiful.
In a sense, in our podcast on Yoga to Bhakti, you had mentioned that when our vision decreases, and as we grow older, our vision decreases, our body capacity decrease. That’s actually meant to encourage us to develop our spiritual vision and become spiritually active. There we go.
It’s not a withering away, it’s a blossoming of the seed that’s within us. That’s right. As our physical vision fades, our divine vision increases, ideally.
Yes, of course. And that’s like hearing the Bhagavatam and hearing the Rasalila can help that blossoming. Yes, they are the divine optometrists.
Divine? Divine optometrists, the eye doctors. Okay, okay. That’s amazing.
Yeah. So, in one sense, so if I understand right what you’re saying is, initially the gopis do have to struggle. And then, after that struggle, because they persist, they get to Krishna.
Yes. However, their family members think that the gopis stayed back, because there’s an illusory form over there. Yes.
From their perspective, their struggles are real, and they succeed, whereas the associates think, the other family members think, we have succeeded in restraining them. That’s right. Okay.
They get the satisfaction. So, see, the gopis have three bodies. The body, the physical body, that they burst out of into the forest, to a divine body.
And they have the illusory body, which makes people in this world think that they’re still here. Oh, okay. Physical body they burst out of.
That’s right. Okay. So, physical body, divine body, and then an illusory body.
Those are the three bodies spoken of. So, when they burst out of the physical body, what is it? So, they don’t go in the same body to Krishna? Is that what you mean? Or is it for all gopis, or for some gopis who are restrained, and it’s also the ancient sense? Even the gopis that are restrained, remember, these are top yogis, yoginis in previous lives, right? Okay. Top Vedic scholars in their previous lives.
So, these gopis, much of meditation means to go so deep within, effectively, you’re dead to the outer world. Amazingly potent, dead to the outer world. Pretty much.
Like, for example, remember Shringi’s father. In the Bhagavatam, the king came across Shringi’s father, sage in the forest who’s meditating. He was in trance.
He wouldn’t wake up. He was dead. So, appropriately, although inappropriately, Maharaj Pariksit took a dead snake.
Another entity that was also dead, and decorated the dead body of the sage who was in trance, but he wasn’t really dead. That’s a beautiful question. That got him in trouble.
You know, that got him in trouble. But the gopis, but here’s the thing. The gopis wanted to be with Krishna who couldn’t leave their homes.
So, they went inside their hearts. Now, this is also symbolic for us. We’re not able, necessarily, at this point, to go to the forest of Krishna’s divine love.
So, we go within. And Prabhupada said, gazing upon the deity is equivalent to hundreds of lifetimes of practising yoga to go within the heart. Wow.
Okay. So, that is the same. Can we appreciate that? Well, that’s the next question.
Can we really appreciate that? But that’s the point. One day, we will appreciate it. So, in one sense, let’s continue this theme of the struggle.
So, even after they reach Krishna, after through the struggle, so, Krishna doesn’t immediately accept them. He, in one sense, plays with them. Again, mundane relationships, people play hard to get.
So, Krishna is doing something like that, but he’s using morality over there. So, you explain very beautifully in your book that the whole Bhagavatam, it’s while transcending dharma, it’s also upholding dharma. Affirming dharma, right, exactly.
Transcending and affirming dharma at the same time. Dharma and parodharma, that’s right. Okay.
And that’s why Krishna’s, Prabhupada describes Krishna’s words in Krishna book as word jugglery. Word jugglery. More specifically, he’s using double entendre.
Oh, okay. He’s saying one thing, okay, I can give you an example of that. Very beautiful.
So, here, seeing that they had arrived nearby, the beloved Lord then approached the young women of Vraja. He, most eloquent of speakers, began to converse with them, bewildering them with playful words. Welcome, most fortunate ladies.
What can I do to please you? Is all going well in Vraja? Please explain the purpose of your arrival. As if he didn’t know, that his flute love call is the most enticing force in the universe. Of course he knew that.
But he was playing clever here. Okay. Then he says, night has a frightening appearance.
Inhabiting this place are fearsome creatures. Please return to Vraja. Women should not remain here.
Oh, ones with beautiful waists. So here, he’s telling them to go back from where they came to affirming, you know, to uphold dharma. But his double entendre, with the exact same words in Sanskrit, also say this.
Night is without a frightening appearance. Inhabiting this place are creatures that are not fearsome. Please do not return to Vraja.
Women should remain here. Oh, ones with beautiful waists. So how do you like that thing? Oh.
So here, Krishna is saying two things at the same time in Sanskrit. Now, you cannot do this in English. You could do it maybe with intonation.
You know, I can give you a double negative by saying two positives. But the only way I can do that is with a tone. Like, I can go like this, sarcastically saying, yes, right.
I could say, yeah, right. Okay? But that’s the only way you can do it in English. Combining, you know, intonation and linguistic content.
But in Sanskrit, you can do it with the actual words themselves. Read them two ways. It’s very funny.
You know, Krishna says- I never realised. Sorry, I never realised that we couldn’t do it in English. I knew that Sanskrit we can do it, but it’s striking, yeah.
Yes, the actual words themselves can be seen as positive and negative at the same time. Krishna is very, very clever and humorous. He’s playful.
Look, where does playfulness in this world come from? It’s Krishna. He’s playful. He’s humorous.
He’s funny. He’s a riot. Krishna’s a riot.
Look, you know, where does humour come from? It comes from Krishna. The three principal deities, Radha Madan Mohan, the supremely beautiful, Radha Govinda, the supremely playful, and Radha Gopinath, the supremely delightful. So part of his attribute of playfulness is here demonstrated.
He says, your mother’s, father’s, son’s. Yeah, what’s that? How do you correlate beautiful, playful, delightful? Is that a samandavideh prayojan or- Well, those deities, yes. Those deities correspond to those, yes.
So supremely beautiful. So why is he supremely beautiful? So we can attract us to him. Sambandhagyana, right? Okay.
Why is he supremely playful? Because he wants to engage us. So play is the reciprocation. That’s right.
That’s right. Like tennis, back and forth, back and forth. And prayojana, you know, supremely delightful.
He wants us to absolutely be absorbed. True, you love, I mean, I can see your love for Sanskrit in some of the reading that you’ve done, but it’s one thing to have that grasp for the beauty of one language, but it’s also another to render that in, to give some glimpse of that beauty or more than the glimpse in another language. Yeah, very difficult.
Yeah. It’s why it took me 10 years to write this book. That’s true.
Krishna says to the gopis, Chaitanya Charan, your mothers, fathers, sons, brothers, and husbands cannot find you. They are searching for you. Do not create anxiety for your families.
Here’s the alternative. Your mothers, fathers, sons, brothers, and husbands cannot find you, which is good, right? Because you want to stay on the first. Even though they are searching for you, you must not be anxious for your families.
So in other words, don’t worry about anything. But the first rendition was like, hey, whoa, you know, they’re worrying about you and, you know, don’t create anxiety for them. But then the verse can be read, they’re not anxious.
They’re not in anxious. They’re not anxious for you. They’re fine.
So stay here. Then he’s saying, don’t stay here. They’re anxious for you.
Do stay here. They’re not anxious for you. That’s amazing.
So, you know, I had thought of this paradharma and aparadharma as two phases in the Rastila. Like initially Krishna tells them stay, and I go, and then he says, okay, welcome, and we’ll enjoy. But it’s not just two successive phases through these double entendres.
It’s like simultaneously also it’s happening. That’s right. Yeah.
And then Krishna gives the gopis a beautiful, he gives them a sense of how seductive the beautiful Vraja scenery is, right? He says, you have seen the forest filled with flowers glowing with the rays of the full moon, made beautiful by leaves of trees, playfully shimmering from the gentle breeze off the river Yamuna. So he’s enticing them. As he was enticed by the beauty of the forest, now he’s trying to entice the Vrajagopikas with the beauty of the forest.
And then he says, please go to the village without delay. And then of course he says, please do not go back right away, okay? So he does this constantly back and forth, yeah. And this is the playfulness in divine love.
So, you know, Chaitanya Charanjee, you can see playfulness even among squirrels. They’re very, they can be very playful. I’ve seen it with dogs.
I’ve seen it with cats. I’ve seen it between humans and animals, playfulness. It’s there, it’s ubiquitous.
And the ultimate playfulness is between Krishna and the Vrajagopikas. Beautiful. So, it’s not just the dance, which is a play, but even before that, there is a word play also.
Exactly. There’s dancing. There’s dancing with the words back and forth.
That’s right. Dancing with the word, beautiful. That’s right.
The verbal, not exactly sparring. Oh, good. The Gopis also replied to Krishna, isn’t it? So it was said they are sparring afterwards.
Oh, they replied very cleverly themselves. Because they have this background of being Vedic sages, they reply very strongly, very powerfully, so much so, of course, that Krishna allows them to spar. He acquiesces.
You see, Chaitanya Charanjee, we have an extraordinarily rich and beautiful tradition. It would be a shame to not be able to revel in these great riches of our tradition. We just have to do it the right way.
I have to do it the right way and very carefully. And of course, not jump into these topics, but to be careful and to learn. And this is why it requires a teacher how to learn from the divine leelas.
What lessons are we to glean? Like the lesson on pride that Krishna clearly teaches the Vrajagopikas in the first, at the end of the first act or the 29th chapter of the Rasa Panchadhyayi. The lesson on pride is extremely important. That’s beautiful, yeah.
He says, you know, in the Bhakti Sutra, it’s stated that the Ishwara does not like persons who are abhimana, overly mindful, filled with pride. He likes the bhakta of dainya, who feels so like, you know, humble in relation to this overwhelming love of the divine. Humility is not meekness and worthlessness.
Humility is about receptivity, absolute receptivity and vulnerability. This is what humility is about. Devotees sometimes think that humility is about like, yes, Prabhu, I’ll surrender, whatever you say.
No, no, no, that’s not, that might be some level of cooperation or whatever, humility means utter honesty, total transparency, complete vulnerability, pure receptivity. It’s the ability to embrace Krishna’s gifts more and more and more. At the same time, there must be passion.
Just like the gopis demonstrate, there must be a passion for desiring Krishna, for struggling, overcoming obstacles for Krishna. There must be that kind of assertion of oneself. Now, when the gopis asserted themselves to be out in the forest with Krishna, they were interacting around the forest, in the river edge, the riverbanks, and some of them got together and said, wow, we are the most fortunate women in the whole world.
What were they doing? Ostensibly, they seem to be very grateful now, didn’t they? But what were they doing? They were comparing themselves to other women. We are better, that’s pride. Beautiful.
So Garuda wonders, how many shlokas does Chaitanya Charan know? Could I beat out Chaitanya Charan if we had a contest? Easily. But you see, that’s wrong. That’s not the right, or what if I said, I know so much more than Chaitanya Charan? Well, that’s pride.
First of all, how much do I really know? Okay? Okay, how much do I really know? And how much do I really know about what Chaitanya Charan knows? The fact is I can’t know that. I’m comparing myself in order to be better. That’s pride.
The gopis were comparing themselves to other women. See, and as soon as I start comparing myself to you, I’m removing myself from vibrant dialogue with you. As soon as the Vrajagopikas compare themselves to other women, they’ve lost the rasa with Krishna.
And so what does Krishna do? Disappears. Just like that. Amazing.
So it’s, I’m noticing this thread that while the Rasalila is a very exalted pastime, there are ways in which we can relate with it at our level also. Right now, exactly. This is exactly what I’m trying to say, Chaitanya Charanji.
Thank you. That these are meaningful lessons for us now. It’s amazing, isn’t it? You know, I remember when I read the book for the first time, maybe you could elaborate on this as a concluding point, that one of the most striking things I found is you compared all the gopis dancing with Krishna to the various religions of the world uniting in the glorification of God.
Yes. That was amazing. Could you elaborate that a little bit? Yes.
If you want to make some other points, it’s a wonderful way, I thought. No, we can end on that. We can end on that because after all the book, it kind of ends on that along with the Mahamantra, right? Which we already talked about.
Yes. See, when you look at the Rasamandala, and when you look at the Rasamandala, and you see that all the Krishnas are of course duplicates of himself. And they all look the same.
But each of the Vrajagopikas are variegated. All the Vrajagopikas together are variegated, in different dress, different colours, different clothing, you know, that kind of thing. And this represents the variety of the variegatedness of all of reality that Krishna invites into his fold, into his loving divine fold.
And what I have suggested is that this, the world needs more symbols of inclusivity. And one of the great aspects of the subtler aspects of this symbol is Krishna comes to us exclusively only after we embrace one another inclusively as humans. Krishna comes to us exclusively when we embrace that inclusively, beautiful.
First, yes, we have to do that first. See, religions typically do it the opposite way. God loves me, you know what? You’re going to hell.
Notice that the Vrajagopikas were the ones who formed the circle around Krishna. They linked their arms together. And then Krishna duplicated himself multiple times to be with each and every Gopi.
And this is what Krishna does. This is what God does with religion. If religion can truly demonstrate to divinity and to the world that there is room for embracing all hearts, all hearts, then God will come to us, but not until then.
That’s amazing. So I think there are many verses in our tradition also, Trunada Pisaricharya, something similar to that itself, that when can we constantly glorify the Lord? Even in the Bible, it is said that if you are worshipping on the altar and if you have quarrelled with someone, first go and clarify that quarrel and then come back and worship me. So I didn’t know that in the Rashtila, the Gopis held their hands first.
Yes, they linked arms first. They linked arms. It’s not hands, but they linked arms like a chain.
And then, only then did Krishna come to them individually. But also you mentioned, so ye yataamam prapadyantei, tam sthitaiva bhajamyaham, right? So in the way they offer themselves to me, in just that way, I offer my love to them reciprocally. So there it is.
There’s the Rashtila right in Bhagavad Gita. Okay, beautiful. In effect, yeah, 411, right? True.
So, because the Gopis are so, so you could say both receptive to Krishna at the same time, cooperative, appreciative of each other. So Krishna is revealing himself in that because of that. Yes.
Okay. And when we talk about this, the, you know, there is this symbolism. Sometimes we don’t, we hesitate to use the word symbolism because people may think that’s all that there is to it.
But, and there’s nothing more. But I think last time you used the word, what is it? Metaphor, what is the other word? Metonym. Metonym, metonym.
Yeah, so metonym. So the reality is, that reality is more than what is described. What is described is also reality, but there is more also over there.
Yes. You know, Prabhupada says the deity is the symbolic representation of the Lord. Prabhupada uses that word, symbolically.
Yes, yes. Now let me explain what symbol is because most people don’t really appreciate it. They conflate it with allegory or allegorical or a kind of, you know, ephemeral sort of understanding of something that then is superficial.
No, symbol is powerful. We, human beings are born with symbols. We, human beings are symbol-receiving, symbol-transforming, and symbol-transmitting creatures.
Really, okay. And what a symbol is, is it takes something literal and sees it also in light of something meaningful and suggestive at the same time. So it doesn’t deny, like what would like, I mean, it can be used, for example, the fight at Kurukshetra didn’t really happen.
It’s just a symbol of my evil side in conflict with my good side, good and evil inside of me. The war didn’t really happen. Well, no, that’s allegory.
Symbol means I can accept the battle in Kurukshetra as the struggle of good and evil in myself, but it doesn’t deny that battle on the actual Kurukshetra. Oh, okay. It doesn’t deny that.
It takes the literal and the suggestive at the same time. Oh, okay. So allegory is like Puranjan’s allegory.
That is clearly, the story is not there. What it represents is what is actually the reality. That’s right.
Okay. Yeah, if you see in ordinary sense also, when we use the word symbols, yeah, this is a symbol of danger or this is a symbol of this. There’s actually something dangerous behind over there.
It’s not just a symbol. That’s right. So yeah, that’s true.
So there is no need to be, in a sense, paranoid about the word symbol and symbolism. That’s right. Exactly.
Please don’t. I hope none of your viewers are. Yeah.
It’s an okay word, but again, it will oftentimes take explanation and that’s okay. Yeah. So that’s good.
Now you can summarise. That’s true. This is an amazing journey.
And I would say this is, it has left me both enriched and greedy. That’s true. See, they’re enriched.
That’s the humility. Greedy, that’s the passion. See, they both have to be there for love to be complete in bhakti.
Amazing. Superb. Yeah.
So today we started with the Prabhupada quote about being cautious. Don’t discuss this publicly. And he said, you appreciate this about Prabhupada because others, you don’t see this so much in other Vaishnav teachers.
It’s easy to speak about this too freely. And if it’s like a very special, large emerald, then we won’t just keep it on the, keep it on a table or something like that. We’ll keep it in a, very carefully in a silk cloth, in a chest or something like that.
So similarly, the appropriate reverential, reverence is essential. And that we see in Prabhupada. He has 18 paragraphs there to give a chaste understanding.
And then, so I also mentioned the danger. So, Gita Govinda is written in such a way that it’s both devotionally uplifting and it’s also poetically, from a literary perspective also, it’s beautiful. And we, it is because of, is it 12th century or 21st century? As it is, just the opposite letters.
12th, so reading a 12th century work in the 21st century, it’s prone to misunderstanding and we have to be careful. And then, we went into the Rasleela. So that is amazing.
The four elements of the Rasleela are there. Krishna, Krishna’s desire, the setting and the gopis are hidden. And that is amazing how you found it in a dream, isn’t it? Yeah, so.
That’s right, after three months. Bhagwan Apitaratri. So this is the goddess of the night.
Yeah, and it’s also that the Mallikas, they don’t come in autumn. So when they’re coming, it’s extraordinary. They’re coming at night.
So similarly, the gopis going out at night, that doesn’t normally happen in that kind of society, but it’s happening. That’s right. And then the subsequent verses also, it’s so beautiful.
So you mentioned your Sanskrit teacher who said that this is the most beautiful poetry he has seen anywhere in world literature. Yeah. Yeah, it’s amazing.
And that how that the metaphor of the moon rising is like the lover touching the face of a lover and the face is blushing. Yes. Vivid metaphors there.
Of course, before that, it started with the Vedu Gita that the Bhagavatam is preparing us for that. In the Vedu Gita itself, the gopis are there. They freeze in one sense.
If they hear Krishna’s flute, they freeze and then they again freeze. So it just goes on and on. It’s just cycle.
Cycle, yeah. Then, and then Yogamaya Upashrita, Jesus says Krishna is inviting the gopis and they’re all entering into the Ras Tila. So this is the only place where Krishna actually says that, I am so busy that you take care of things.
Yeah, and then, so Krishna plays the flute to attract Radharani, but Radharani is with him on the altar and he’s playing the flute for all of us. So in that sense, the start of the Ras Tila is also called for us to enter and the holy name is Epiphenomena or it should be. That when we, it’s Epiphenomena is something that happens in response to something else.
So we hear Krishna’s flute call, Krishna’s love call and our chanting of the holy name is a response to that. So this is, this two level, there’s the narrative of the Leela and there is the, there is the relevance of the Leela to us. That is a beautiful thread of thought.
And as I discussed how the gopis, when they’re coming and they face opposition, then that is the nature of the world that we will also face opposition and how the gopis persist in spite of that. And then when they’re restrained, there is their physical body out of which they burst and in the divine body, they go to be with Krishna and then left behind is the illusory body which makes them feel that, which means the family members feel that they’re still with us. Yes.
And then I had not so clearly heard about, I’d never read, I don’t remember at least about the dublin tandars which Krishna is using. So he is in one sense telling them to go, but telling them to stay also. So both Paradharma and Aparadharma both are there over there.
Right. And then of course, as the gopis, so gopis also reply very clearly, the gopis are yoginis, as you said. They’re also very, very wise and elevated souls.
And there is verbal sparring, just like the dance before the dance, the play before. That’s right. And then there’s also this mention of Radha, Madan, Mohan, Govinda and Gopinath as beautiful, joyful, playful and delightful.
Yes. So that’s the journey in the Raslila also. And then towards the end, of course, you talked about how the gopis link hands and then Krishna reciprocates with them individually.
So to the extent- Link arms. Link arms, not hands, link arms. So to the extent we link inclusively with each other, the extent Krishna will reveal exclusively to us.
Yeah, there it is. That’s amazing. And symbolism, we don’t have to be afraid of that because symbol means that, because symbols are integral to human communication and symbols mean that, it doesn’t mean that what is symbolised is not there.
That is allegory. So we can use symbols and we can look for symbolic meanings while acknowledging that there is a reality also. Yeah.
It’s amazing. So any concluding words for you? Just that I’m so grateful to have this discussion with you, Chetan and Charan. You immediately get everything.
I love that. Active intelligence of you. I love it.
Maybe I can, my memory got it, but I hope my heart also gets it. That’s what we’re all here to do. And that takes place in Qatar, just like what you are making room for in these podcasts.
Yes. I love that sentiment. This is what you are living for also.
This is what we should be living for. If we don’t neglect that, then it’s like we’re neglecting our heart. So everything else is so enriching.
Exactly. The Hridh Rogam, we must get rid of the disease of the heart and attain Bhakti Param as the last verse of the Ras Leela states. Yes.
Beautiful. So thank you very much, Roo, for sharing this. I thank you.
So grateful to you. For giving- I am grateful to you, Chetan and Charan. This is of the highest domain of the spiritual world.
Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna.