God as the supreme therapist 4 – How association works and how to make it work
[Narasimha Chaturdashi series on Prahlada’s prayers to Narasimhadeva 5.8.8-14]
[Bhagavatam class on 5.8.11 at ISKCON, Denver]
Video:
Transcript
Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.
Today morning we are discussing from the Shri Mahabhagavatam, the 7th canto. We are discussing about the prayers of Shri Prahlad Maharaj. And the prayers are flowing in a particular direction.
So initially Prahlad Maharaj says that, O my dear Lord, I offer obeisances to you. Please destroy the evasions in my heart. And then he says, let all the demons be pacified by the removal of the envy in their hearts.
Then he says that, actually let my consciousness not be directed towards anyone except you. And if at all it is directed anywhere else, let it be directed towards the association, towards devotees. And this verse focuses on how devotee association purifies us.
It is a common theme in the Bhagavatam that actually hearing purifies us more than bathing in the holy places. And this is repeated over here. And Shri Prabhupada in the Paripuram focuses on the substance of association is hearing.
It is the spiritual sound vibration that is transmitted and received in association. That is the engine of the spiritual transformation that association brings about. So we have been discussing about how God is a supreme therapist and he helps us heal us emotionally.
So that our emotions, be healthy and pure, are directed towards Krishna. In a reciprocation of immortal love. And we discussed how, first, in the first session I discussed how we have to recognize that emotional distress is a big distress in today's world.
And in the second session I talked about how emotional distress, people become very hypersensitive. Unless we are sensitive to people's sensibilities, we may alienate people. And yesterday I talked about how one alienating emotion can be a misunderstanding about detachment.
If it comes off as aversion, then that can alienate people. So bhakti has to be inclusive where we connect things of this world towards Krishna. So that in a healthy way our emotions move towards Krishna.
So today I will focus on that when we connect with Krishna through association, specifically through hearing, how does the transformation happen? Bhakti yoga is basically the re-channeling of our emotional energy. The mind lies in between the soul and the body. And our emotions primarily flow through the mind.
They are triggered by the impressions in the mind and they flow thereby. So currently our emotions flow to many things in this world. And we want the emotions to flow towards Krishna.
And how does this happen? This happens primarily by the potency of spiritual sound vibration in association. How does association actually work? Yesterday I mentioned the essence of association is the transfer of desires. Now there is a question that comes up.
Is the potency of bhakti automatic or is it to conscientiously to be tapped? That means, is it that just by coming in the association of devotees I will become purified? Or is it that in the association of devotees I have to strive to become purified? So actually the ultimate requirement for us to love Krishna and to attain Krishna is that we use our free will properly. And using our free will properly is a conscientious process. It is not an automatic process.
So I could say that if I am coming in the association of devotees, I am already using my free will well. I could be in the association of non-devotees. But the fact that I am coming in the association of Krishna's devotees, those who are spiritually minded, those who are using their free will properly, that means I am already using my free will properly.
Yes, it is, but it is just the first installment of the proper use of free will. Because we act, people say, with our hands, with our head and with our heart. When we do something with our hands, that means it is physically involved.
With our head means we are intellectually involved. And with our heart means that our emotions are emulsified. We are deeply concerned about it.
So for example, a surgeon, a doctor, a surgeon may have an assistant. And the surgeon would say, okay, pick this up, put this there, get back, get back. This is getting their hands, using their hands over there.
The surgeon's assistant may not know much about what the surgery is being done. The surgeon has the head involved and also the hands. Sorry, the hands involved and also the head.
Okay, this is the part of the body that I have, the infection that I have to remove. I am going to cut like this. So if I cut like this, this is going to get cut, the blood is going to come.
You have to take care of that. So the head has to be involved, it is not just the hands. But the surgeon is not operating, he is not a machine operating on another machine.
The person who is being operated, whose life and death, whose pain and relief from pain are at stake. And the doctor should also have some amount of concern for the patient. So the heart also has to be involved.
One of the major complaints where medicine has become more and more technology centred is that people feel that the doctors have become just too impersonal. That the doctor just do some diagnosis and the diagnosis is also not done so that we are talking to the patient. But just have some standardised tests done.
And they should let the patient feel. So the doctor does not involve the heart and the patient does not feel much connected. And of course doctors work in professional settings.
And that is why they may not have the time or the inclination to express themselves emotionally. But the point which I am making over here is that Bhakti is meant to channel both our hands, head and heart. That means our physically we act for Krishna's sake.
Intellectually I understand what is happening in this way. And at the level of the heart, we invest our emotion in this direction. And all these three are ways in which we are using our freedom.
So coming to the temple is the first instalment of the use of freedom. The second instalment is actually becoming attentive. Actually becoming, trying to use our intelligence to understand what we are doing.
What is the philosophy? How does it apply to my life? What am I meant to do? We use our intelligence. The Bhagavad Gita is so strong in recommending the use of intelligence that it says Adhishate chalema dhanyam samvatam amayo jnana yajnate namah Ishtashyam iti me madhi In 18.17 it says that those who are studying the sacred conversation of ours, Krishna and Siddharjuna, that those who are studying the sacred conversation are actually worshipping me with their intelligence. So studying is not just some intellectual activity.
Studying scripture or hearing scripture is not just some intellectual activity. It is actually a devotional activity. It is like when we do aarti with a lamp.
We can do aarti and want to worship with the intelligence. So we want to use our intelligence properly. We direct our attention.
So if we don't do that, then we may be physically in association but we are not really using the free will properly. Or at least we are not using the free will fully. And beyond that there has to be also the heart invested.
Heart invested means there has to be right attitude. I am just hearing this. There might be a dry academic scholar also who may hear, who may learn about, who may learn, study the scriptures and learn about Krishna.
But then they will, if we don't invest the heart, then we will know about God. If we don't know God, we won't know God. Knowing about God means we just get information about it.
Let's say the doctor may know a lot about a child in fertility. WBC count is this, RBC count is this, platelet count is this. The urine has this thing.
So you can have much more information about the child than the mother may have. But the doctor knows about the child whereas the mother knows the child. So why? Because the mother's heart is invested.
Similarly the process of bhakti, we have to invest not just our hands, not just our head but also our heart. So the process of bhakti, the question, I talked about hand and heart, hands, head and heart is that. I was discussing the question that does the result of bhakti come automatically? Scriptures talk so much about the importance of association, about the potency of hearing, about how hearing and association can be so dramatically transforming.
So will this happen automatically or does this have to be done conscientiously? That's the question which I was discussing. So actually nothing is automatic. We are conscious beings.
It is not just by putting myself in association automatically I will grow. Yes some amount of growth will happen because the spiritual vibrations, I am placing myself in spiritual vibrations. But rapid growth will happen when I conscientiously strive to do it.
It's like a car. If I get a car to go to a particular station, I can get there easily. But just because it's easy doesn't mean that it's automatic.
Still I have to navigate the traffic, I have to drive the car properly. Similarly in association also, we have to associate properly and we have to make sure that the desired result is happening. It's like if you are driving a car, we are constantly looking, I am going to get there, that was 35 km, miles away.
Now it's 20 miles, I am going in the right direction. If I find earlier it was 35 miles away, I have been driving for half an hour and still it's 35 miles away. Then something is wrong.
So similarly when we are in our spiritual journey towards Krishna, we could say association is like the vehicle. Association helps us, it facilitates our journey towards Krishna. But it is for us to make sure that we go towards Krishna in association.
So here again the point comes that, why would it happen if I am in association and I am not going towards Krishna? That may happen if within association our emotional energy gets choked or it gets blocked or impeded in some way. As I said, our consciousness is meant to be offered to Krishna. Our pure emotion of devotion is meant to be offered to Krishna.
But if I come in the association of devotees and there is so much negativity in that association, that my emotional energy gets caught in that negativity, oh this devotee is like this, this devotee is like that, this person did this to me, that person did that to me. Then my emotions are caught and consumed in those dealings of the devotees alone. And if those dealings are not very pleasant, then my emotions stay caught in the negativity.
And then although in the association I have the opportunity to offer my consciousness towards Krishna, and my emotions towards Krishna, it may not happen. So if our emotions get blocked in the association, then even in association we will not grow. In fact the opposite may happen.
In the association we may start becoming averse to the association of devotees. And we may start becoming offensive, which will actually not only slow down the process of progress of our emotions towards Krishna, it may actually block it and even reverse it. When we become offensive in association, the result is that Krishna becomes displeased with us and Krishna removes or withdraws the higher taste that we were getting in the past.
And once we stop getting that higher taste, then again our lower taste that were in the past, they start surfacing again. And if we drag towards the worldly enjoyments that we were indulging in in the past, of course Krishna is merciful and even if we indulge in those worldly pleasures, we won't get any significant pleasure because we have got a higher taste. But still the channel towards Krishna for our emotions, the channel towards sense objects for our emotions, we want the surface to be like this so that it naturally flows towards Krishna and doesn't flow towards the sense objects.
But if we become offensive then the surface becomes like this, so that our emotions naturally flow towards the sense objects and our emotions flowing towards Krishna becomes more and more difficult. So in association we have to keep the purpose in mind. The purpose is I have come in association to develop my love for Krishna.
To channel my emotional energy towards Krishna. And if that is not happening, then making it happen is my responsibility. So association can provide magical results, but getting those results is my responsibility.
That means even in association, whose association, which kind of association, it helps me channel my emotions towards Krishna, which accelerates this flow, which decelerates the flow, and what exactly is happening with respect to my consciousness at large, it is for me to observe that. And if in certain association, if we just feel so inhibited, so agitated, so choked, that if we can't practice bhakti, then we may have to create some safe distance and associate with those who inspire us in the practice of bhakti. If we consider that, why is it that the comparisons in the Bhagavatam, that the Kanada purifies, but association purifies faster.
So what is it that makes association special? Ganga is also a great devotee of the Lord. And we are also coming in contact with the Ganges when we bathe in her sacred waters. And there are devotees.
We consider the devotees around us may not be that great also. So if we see, the point is, that the bathing in the Ganges is pure. Ganges is pure and it purifies.
It may cleanse us of certain sinful reactions. But at the same time, it is the sinful desires that is the problem. And our desires change by associating with those whose desires have changed.
Our desires change by associating with those who have changed desires. For instance, if somebody is an alcoholic, and they want to give up alcohol, if they keep associating with alcoholics, even if they get some inspiration, they will not be able to give up their alcohol. Now suppose, they decide to give up their alcohol.
And then, if they associate with people who have always been sober, then I feel, okay, I want to become like them. But the distance between them may appear too much. No, these people don't understand any of the struggles that I am going through.
Yes, I want to become like them, but how do I become like them? So that's why, there is often the association of recovering alcoholics. Something like Alcoholics Anonymous. And this Alcoholics Anonymous, in such an association, they don't have simply sober people.
They also have people who are at different levels of recovery. And meeting people and interacting with them, okay, how did you overcome this temptation? Even now, how do you deal with it? How do you, more important, how do you create a purposeful, meaningful life, which will help us when we get rid of the urge for alcohol? They discuss all this. And that's how, for them, the process of becoming free from the addiction becomes real.
So, I have given the example of Alcoholics Anonymous to illustrate the point that sometimes, we may become too judgmental about our association. I said earlier that even in association, we have to discern, is this association taking my emotions towards Krishna? But then you may say, oh, that devotee is around me, they are all neophytes. If only I had the association of pure devotees, that would be so inspiring.
Yes, association of exalted devotees is inspiring. But sometimes, the distance between them and us is so great that the inspiration primarily stays at the level of admiration. It doesn't create the urge for transformation.
Yes, you are so great and I want to serve you. What can I do for you? But, as far as becoming like you, that's a project for the next five years. So, just the association of very exalted devotees, it can be inspiring.
But whether it alone will inspire us to transform ourselves, that may give us the conviction, yes, spiritually advanced states are for real, and we can get to those states. Yes, there are people at that state. But whether I can get to that state or not, that conviction may not come simply by association of exalted devotees.
That's why we need association of equals also. People who are struggling with their traditions like we are. And, in this struggle, when we are dealing with others also who have anathamas like us, we have to associate with the positive side of others, not the negative side.
Just like, as a recovering alcoholic, I have sometimes the urge to relax, and sometimes the will to stay strong and become free. So do others. Now, if I associate with someone during their weak moments, and they are thinking of relapsing, and I go with them and relapse, then I am not fulfilling the purpose of their association.
In their weak moments, I should be happy with them. And in my weak moments, somebody should be happy with me. So that means that even in an association of people who are trying to become sober, not all association will be equally beneficial at all times.
So if somebody is having a weak moment, they need to go and talk with someone who is strong at that time. Of course, that person who is strong at that time may also later have a weak moment. It's like a war going on.
In this war, we are all fighting. And sometimes the enemy bullet may hit one person. And sometimes the enemy bullet may hit another person.
So who is wounded, the comrades have to lift that person and help them. But two wounded people may not be of much help to each other. They may commiserate with their pain, but beyond that, what else? They will not be able to move towards safety or move towards any constructive action.
So with respect to alcohol, it is easy to understand. I came here to give up alcohol. And somehow, this person is drinking.
Okay, I cannot associate. So I am getting the urge to drink. And I am also getting that urge.
So let me go and associate with someone who is free from that urge and who will help me to become free. But because drinking alcohol is such a physical activity, physically visible activity, so it is easy to understand that my purpose is not being served. But in the association of devotees, also devotees have their weak moments.
And not just their weak moments. Devotees also have their lower side, which they are prone to work. So somebody may have weakness and lust.
Somebody may have weakness and pride. Somebody may have weakness and anger. And these moments, these lower tendencies are there.
And they sometimes become very strong. So when somebody becomes angry at us and starts shouting at us, if at that time I start thinking, devotees are like this, what is the point of being devotees? Devotees, idealistically, we should not get angry at ourselves, we should not shout at others, yell at others, speak hurtful words. But everyone has their conditionings.
So if because of someone's conditionings, they start, they at that time, have become puppets of anger. And they are shouting at us. Are devotees like this? Should I be associating with devotees? Well, yes, we should be associating with devotees.
And are devotees like this? Well, no, not all devotees are like this all the time. But some devotees may be like this sometime. And at that time it is for me to recognize that I need some other association.
So if we equate the whole association of devotees with the improper conduct of one or two or a few devotees, then we miss out on the potency of the association of devotees. But at the same time, if we don't distance ourselves at that time, some devotees are very pessimistic, very critical. In any group they come, they start finding faults, this is not right, this is not right, this is not right.
And if we associate with them, this will become filled with so much negativity. This person is not doing this right, this person is not doing this right, this person is not doing this right. And among the devotees, this critical mentality is actually, in one way, the most dangerous.
Because when we start getting lost or greed, or angry, at that time we understand that actually this is a weakness within me which is infecting me right now. This is a lower ruling that has come on me. So normally, if such a lower desire starts pulling us, it creates humility.
Krishna, you are so powerful. But the critical mentality, it doesn't create humility, it creates superiority, a sense of superiority. They are not doing it right, they are not doing it right, they are not doing it right, I know what is right.
So now, some devotees who are authoritative positions may have to set some standards and for that, they may sometimes have to find out the faults. But even they need to look for the good in others. If your purpose, focus, if you are finding faults, then the hippies, they are an ocean of faults.
But Prabhupada did not look at the ocean of faults. Prabhupada looked at the island of good. What is the small island of good in this vast ocean of faults? That small island is, they want to do about Krishna.
They have a spiritual path. And Prabhupada focused on that. So, sometimes, finding out faults may be a service.
But it has to be done. It has to be done conscientiously and cautiously, so that we don't discourage others from the whole fight. But if some devotees are like that, always critical, then we have to see that this association is going to impact.
Although it is devoting, maybe we are speaking about devotion, but they are not exactly speaking in a way that will increase my devotional desire, that will not help me channel my emotions towards Krishna. So, sometimes the devotees speak strongly at us that simply their conditioning comes in. And sometimes they speak strongly to us because we are doing something wrong and we need to be corrected.
If it is the first case, just there, it is very difficult to judge whether it is their conditioning which is making them angry or it is our conditioning which is making us faulty which is making them angry. Whether their anger is valid or invalid, it is very difficult to decide at least at that moment. So, it is good to just stay humble and move out of that situation.
It is very difficult to, if somebody is angry, it is very, very difficult to rationally respond at that time. And whether they can also take a rational response, that also is difficult. So then, we create a distance and then we try to pray and then we come to the word of goodness and then analyze completely.
And then decide what to do. The important thing is we have to make sure that our consciousness keeps moving towards Krishna. And I conclude with one point that in the association of devotees, different devotees can inspire our consciousness to move towards Krishna in different ways.
Some devotees may lead us towards Krishna and some devotees may give some devotees their sweetness, kindness, helpfulness. It is like a parent taking a child by the hand towards Krishna. They just say, oh, devotees are so nice, I want to move to Krishna.
But some devotees limit their conditioning, our conditioning, a combination of both. They deal with us so harshly, what is going on? They are making me, by dealing with me like this, what is happening? They are reminding me that my ultimate shelter has to be Krishna. So let me take shelter of Krishna more and more.
And we have this attitude that it is making sure that my consciousness flowing towards Krishna is my responsibility. Then we will be able to act wisely, act judiciously and whatever be the particular association, we will find the way to take our consciousness towards Krishna. When somebody is leading us by the hand, we will happily accept that association and move forward.
And somebody kicks us by their harsh feelings. But I will not let this devotee's actions come between me and Krishna. Some devotees, unwittingly by their actions tend to push away from Krishna.
But rather than letting them push us away from Krishna, we see that this action is not because of their Krishna consciousness. That this action is because of their lack of Krishna consciousness. And we don't want to become judgmental towards them.
We also, we don't equate their behavior with the behavior of devotees in general. Or we don't equate that with Krishna bhakti at large. We see this is because of their lack of Krishna consciousness.
Even if I have some mistake, maybe this was not the way the mistake should have been pointed out. But if they have done it like that, I don't let that devotee's behavior be like that, then let me become more Krishna conscious. So, if we have that attitude, then both the positive, so sometimes in the alcoholic society somebody is relapsing.
Somebody is relapsing, I don't want the bonding part. Let me be very cautious. Let me focus on the positivity and become more determined.
And somebody who is determined to move forward in recovery, we get inspiration even from them. Then even if the devotee sometimes works favorably and sometimes unfavorably, both will be able to take better inputs for increasing our connection with Krishna, for intensifying the flow of our consciousness towards Krishna. So, I'll summarize.
I spoke today about how the association of devotees works magically in transforming us, but making it work is our responsibility. So, this verse talks about how association and hearing in association transforms. And I was talking about how we have to be, we have to ensure that we channel our emotional energy properly in association.
And I started by talking about what essentially is association? It is a transfer of desires. Is this transformation in association, the change of desires, is this automatic or does it have to be conscientiously done? The answer is it has to be conscientiously done. Because the essence of bhakti is the proper use of freedom.
And proper use of freedom is something every one of us has to do on our own. So, it's like if I have a car, I have to drive the car properly to get to the destination. So, the association becomes like a facility which makes it easier for me to go towards Krishna.
But still, I have the responsibility. So, using our freedom properly is aligning our hands, our head and our heart with our bodies. So, like a surgeon's assistant, a surgeon who is just business-like, because we want to engage physically.
So, just coming to the association of devotees, that is the first installment of the right use of freedom. Wherein, physically, I engage myself right. Secondly is, I have to use my intelligence to understand what bhakti is doing.
That's the second installment of the right use of freedom. The third is, I have to actually put my heart in the process of bhakti, in the association of devotees. Because of differences, our emotions get choked in the animosity in that association.
Then association may not be taking us towards Krishna. So, keeping in mind the purpose that my emotional energy is meant to go towards Krishna, we have to choose the association that will help us to go towards Krishna. So, very advanced devotees, by their purity, by their maturity, by their spiritual potency trigger the spiritual desires within us and make us want to grow towards Krishna.
But that doesn't mean that devotees are equal, they are of no importance. Like a person recovering from alcohol, a sober person may be a model of how I want to become, but it may seem too far. So, recovering alcoholics can be better aides on the journey.
Similarly, sadhakas who are conditioned like us can help us in our journey by understanding where we are and by helping us move along. So, all of us, because we are sadhakas, we have strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes we have alcoholic movements.
So, if an alcoholic is recovering, I will associate with another alcoholic while they are awake and then relax. So, when people have weak movements, we keep a distance from them. And by keeping the purpose in mind, we associate with those devotees in a way, with devotees in a way that ensures that our emotional energy is moving towards Krishna.
If some devotee behaves very harshly with us, we don't equate that with this is how devotees are, but rather, this is how I don't want to be. And they are acting like this so let me try to become more Krishna conscious. Some devotees may lead us towards Krishna by their loving nature and some may kick us towards Krishna by their harsh acting.
Now, when somebody becomes angry at us, whether it is because of their conditioning or our conditioning or the friction of both conditionings, it is difficult to know. And we need to retreat from there and come to the mode of goodness by which we can evaluate, how our enthusiasm for moving towards Krishna continues. So, if everybody has their conditioning, then we don't want to affect them by associating with them.
So, among various conditions, the last anger is relatively easy to protect. But a critical mentality, it makes us feel proud, not humble. And that's why it can be a very dangerous way in which we stay in association because we are just looking at thoughts.
So, if we make sure that we associate with those devotees who inspire us to direct our emotional energy towards Krishna, we take that responsibility for ensuring that our emotional, our consciousness moves towards Krishna, then in the association of devotees, Krishna will guide us to the right association in the right way by which we will experience magical transformation of the heart towards Krishna. Thank you very much. Are there any comments or questions? So, if you make offences, then increases our material desires and the material desires make us become more offensive.
So, then this becomes a vicious cycle. How do we break free from it? Yes, generally its like a circle. Once it has begun, you have drawn a circle.
Once a circle is drawn, So, where something starts is very difficult to know, but what we can do is, we can break it wherever we can. That means, if I find myself becoming very offensive in association with some devotees, then let me associate with somebody else, and I don't become so offensive. Let me associate with those who can help me to see the positive in those devotees, by which I can stay positive and purposeful.
If I find a particular Artha is just growing too much, then what do I need to do? Control myself in this situation. Maybe I have to change it, I have to create some obstacles between me, some protective guards, guarding things between me, and that kind of indulgence, so that I can be protected. Whatever it is, it is.
So, just like where a circle begins, we can't go. If I had to go round and round and make a circle, where should I stop it? Wherever I can. So, in a vicious cycle, where do we break it? Break it wherever we can.
So, sometimes, some devotees, they may just have so much negativity because of whatever they have done. Stopping that can be very difficult. Then just move to some other association, or get somebody else's association.
Somehow or the other, fix the mind of Krishna. What works when, is something which is very difficult to say. But if in our more sober, saner moments, we recognize that we may have committed some offenses, then it is good to seek forgiveness, and try to make some amends.
That also Krishna appreciates very much. And more importantly, it's not that we have to leave. Most importantly is that we don't have to live paranoid.
Oh, I may commit offense, I may commit offense. We don't have to be offense conscious. We have to be Krishna conscious.
If we are Krishna conscious, naturally, we will be able to avoid offenses. There is one devotee who was telling me that, actually I have committed many offenses. That's why I decided never to go on associative devotees.
And I have not committed any offenses. This is like saying that, when I take this medicine in this hospital, it causes some side effects. Therefore, I will not go to the hospital.
Well, then you are going to stay sick. Or it's like saying, when I ate a particular food, it caused disturbance of, I have fractured my stomach. Therefore, I will stop eating food.
Stopping eating food means we can die. So, we need association for nourishing ourselves. So, it's not an association problem.
Particular interaction or a particular devotee, associated with a particular frame may be a problem. So, then we have to associate with others in a different frame and move on towards Krishna. Okay.
Thank you. Yes. Krishna.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Bhagavad Gita, in 4.34, the verse which we quote most often, Tattva-dipan-pate, Pariprasheen is in there, Upadeeksha-tate jnanam jnana-sattva-darsinah. Actually, if you see, tattva-darsinah, it's not tattva-darsin.
It's not singular, it's plural. Krishna is telling Arjuna, go to the self-realized souls and hear from them. Those who go to the seers of truth.
That means that, actually, we hear from different people. If you look at the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, Lord Rama when in the forest, he's not saying, Oh, I don't want to hear from Vasishtha. Vasishtha is in Ayodhya.
When he's in the forest, he's hearing from different seers over there. Pandavas also in the forest hear from so many different seers. So it is that the spiritual master is vital.
So if you consider another example, I'll come back to the hospital example later, but if you consider a university, the spiritual master is like the dean of the university or the head of the department whose signature ensures that we get admitted into the university. And they might be the best professor and the best faculty over there. But if our particular specialization is somewhat different, if I say I'm getting a college-school PhD, I need the dean's approval.
But then my PhD type is somewhat different. And nowadays most PhDs are very interdisciplinary. So I have this person, this person, this person.
And then the whole education of PhDs is under the supervision of the PhD guy, under the dean. But there may be various different guides who may help that person in different subjects. So the purpose of education is common, but that purpose is not fulfilled only through one person.
It is through many different people. Similarly, in a hospital where a patient has a complicated case with many different diseases, sometimes there may be different specialists, doctors also, who may work together. So Krishna is infinite.
And all of us, even pure devotees, nobody can perceive Krishna fully. So, say, I'm looking at Krishna. You're looking at Krishna.
Somebody's looking at Krishna. So now, not only is our perception of Krishna finite, but even that finite perception is distorted. We will always perceive Krishna finite.
But as long as that impurity is there, even that finite perception will be distorted. A pure devotee's perception of Krishna is clear. It's undistorted.
But that doesn't mean a pure devotee's perception of Krishna is infinite. Pure devotees also are finite. Their speciality is their purity.
It's not that they become God. So that's why sometimes even exalted devotees, they may perceive Krishna from a particular way. And that may connect with us sometimes.
And somebody else perceives Krishna from a different direction. They may connect more with us. Because the connection with Krishna ultimately is spiritual.
But the means to that connection is actually through our consciousness currently, is filtered through our intellect, through our mind, through our culture, through the society that we live in. There are so many means that cause the distortion. Cause the filtering of it, not necessarily distortion.
So Srila Prabhupada wanted everyone to read his books. At the same time, even in the early stages of the movement, he wanted devotees to give classes. He did not want just his recordings to be given.
One way is, of course, just by speaking, they realize it more. But also, by speaking, it's almost everywhere. If somebody is from a particular culture, and then some spiritual practitioner from their culture starts explaining it, everything becomes more intelligible.
If somebody from another culture comes, it's more of a curiosity. Hey, what is all this? I want to know about it. But how does it apply in my life? Somebody who understands the way I live, the way I think, that's what will help me to understand.
So for us, we, different devotees, may be perceiving Krishna in different ways. And the more purer they are, the more accurate their perceptions. But accuracy doesn't mean Krishna is exhausted.
Nobody has a complete perception of Krishna. Prabhupada also says, study scripture scrutinizing. Study from different angles, different perspectives.
So different devotees may give the understanding from different directions, different perspectives. And that can help us to grow. So even if a student, sometimes the professor speaks something, and one student doesn't get it, the other student gets it.
And going to the professor may not give the clarification. But asking another student, both speak the same language, both at the same level, he's like, oh, I got it. So it's a process of learning.
It's a hospital metaphor. Somebody who has gone through the treatment, and they say, yes, when you take this injection, you get a lot of queasy sensation, you feel like becoming sick, throwing up or whatever. But it doesn't stay for long, it's tolerated.
So somebody who has gone through that tells us, OK, it becomes easier. So learning or healing is a cumulative process. And we get inputs from various directions.
So as long as there are different directions, there are different inputs, don't confuse us about which direction I'm supposed to go. As long as our direction is clear, or the purpose is clear, we are meant to learn from different people. The spiritual world is also society.
It's not that we will be there with our spiritual master alone. It's a community. We are meant to live in a community, and we learn and we share.
That's why we have Diksha Guru and we have Shiksha Gurus. So we have to check whether the purpose is being served or not. Now as far as scripture, not talking so much about horizontal interactions, my understanding about that is that Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita are spoken at a particular time in history.
And that is a time when a person urgently needed spiritual knowledge. So Krishna was about to die and Arjuna had to decide whether he would fight or not. So at that time, by circumstantial necessity, the transcendental knowledge was vertical.
It was drawn up. But then we have the six Goswamis. It's described that they would just sit together and discuss.
It's not that Rupa and Sanatana were seen here. But ultimately, they all interacted with each other. And Rupa and Sanatana were discussing with each other.
So there are examples of devotees discussing Krishna Katha among each other also. And that is nourishing in its own way. In fact, if you see, 4.34 is one verse.
Where transmission is described as vertical. But the real rasa bhakti, how do devotees realize bhakti is described in 10.9. That is not vertical. The devotees, their hearts are fixed on me.
Their lives are devoted to me. And they delight in enlightening each other about me. So Prabhupada writes, in one lecture he says, that here Krishna is already talking about enlightening people.
Isn't it? Previous verse, this is 10.9, 10.8, says that, aham sarvasya prabhavantah sarvam pravartate iti matva bhajante mam buddha bhava samantah That they are already enlightened. They are already buddhan. If they are buddha, then how are they doing bodhayantam? If they are already enlightened, then how are they enlightening each other? That is because Prabhupada says Krishna is unlimited.
And different devotees perceive Krishna from different directions and they enlighten, oh Krishna is like this, this is like this. That is how they are enlightened. Enlightenment in bhakti is not a state to be attained.
It is an emotion to be savored eternally. Because it is not just a destination that we get. It is more of an emotion we relish continuously.
So in that sense, equal association is also talked about and that is considered to be extremely tasteful, extremely relishable. So thank you very much. Do we have time? One last question.
Can you speak? I will repeat the question. Oh, no. The element of Krishna or the sentient being, they are not equal.
I think it is. I am not sure whether it is true or not true. So somehow, I don't know if there is anything that you can have a very dry and cynical, not to put it like a cynical image, but cynical.
So can you say something about how such people are spread out? Sometimes some devotees may become resentful within an institution because they feel that we have to put up a particular image and conform to certain doctrines or practices which prevent them from expressing their individuality or being who they are. There is always a tension between the individual needs and the institutional needs. Institution, by default, requires some sort of standardization.
There is some commonality which defines the institution. But individuals are unique in their own ways. So broadly speaking, the principle is that the individuals have to be ready to conform in some aspects.
And the institution needs to be ready to give room for individuality in some aspects. Specifically, which aspects require conformity and which aspects will allow for individuality, that will vary from situation to situation, in both the individual and the institution. Now, Bhayeshwar Prabhupada's vision, he did not make ISKCON into a monolithic organization.
Monolithic means that it is not that there is one central bureaucracy which administers everything. So, each temple is like a nuclear family. And each temple has its leader and they have their vision.
And that's why each temple, if we go to, they have their own moods. And we can always find out, if we feel that a particular place doesn't match with us, we can always go somewhere else. Of course, we can't just keep going from one place to another.
Because, as we say, the mind will never be satisfied with it. The mind will always find faults. Even if we go to paradise, the mind will say, yes, but… And the mind will continue its round of complaints.
So, the point is, there are different places where individual needs will be catered to in different ways. So, the problem comes because we don't clarify expectations. Generally, in an institution, we won't get two things together.
Freedom and facility. If there is a particular facility, okay, this facility is there, then if those who are the leaders of that particular institution or that particular place, they will have a vision of how that facility is meant to be used. And they have done some service.
They have been responsible enough. And that's how they have got the place where they have been entrusted with the responsibility to take care of that facility. So, if I want to use that facility, then I have to more or less harmonize with their vision.
But, if I have some strong motivation to do something in a particular way, it's not that we'll stop from that. We'll have the freedom to do it. But then, the problem comes when we want freedom and we want facility.
That is not going to work. So, if we want facility, then we have to some extent conform. If we want freedom, then we should accept the facility.
Then we have to take the initiative ourselves. And if we have a strong zeal to serve Krishna, then Krishna will reciprocate. And eventually, the facility will also come.
But, instead of… We want the freedom and we want the facility. And we don't get that. We just become resentful.
So, facilities in this world are limited. Everybody has their freedom. Everybody has their inspiration, their vision.
So, those who are leaders can use the facility that they have accordingly. In general, if we are trying to serve Krishna, nobody is going to bind our hands and legs and the loins of Krishna. Even if it's in a new way.
Or they may say that, yes, we don't have the resources right now to help them in this. If you want to do it, you do it. So, generally, if the individual needs are particularly strong and the institutional situation is not fulfilling that need, then the individual is better not to become resentful but to find out, okay, how can my need be fulfilled.
Either I generate the facility or I connect with somebody who can provide me the facility. And then I move on towards it. Did I answer the question? Thank you very much.