How Krishna can be seen – and how he can’t be seen

[Congregation program at Wellington, New Zealand]

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Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
… Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna.
Today, we’ll discuss on the topic of this well-known verse in the Puranas. … … … … … So this is the theme as we can how Krishna is experienced and how Krishna can’t be experienced. … … … … … … … … … … … … … … It means our face turns towards you by service to him and such servings begins with the tongue and then by such service which begins with the tongue svayam eva sphuratyah svayam eva means by his own will sphuratyah means manifests so krishna manifests by his own will when we serve him so in many traditions many religious traditions there is the idea that God is unknown and God is unknowable and that is because we say God is infinite we are finite so when we look at the world around us normally it’s not that suddenly we start thinking about God or we look at the world and we observe okay there’s this plant, there’s this bird, there’s this flower, there’s a star, there’s a sky these are the normal objects that we observe and by this knowledge by trying to know about these things that’s how we normally fulfil our curiosity Prabhupada explains that all knowledge comes from Krishna but knowledge doesn’t begin from Krishna knowledge comes from Krishna means it is Krishna who gives us understanding of things he’s present in our hearts and he gives his understanding sarvasya chaaham krita-sanyam ishto mattahas smrtir kyaanam apohanam ca it is he who gives us understanding but all knowledge comes from Krishna but all knowledge doesn’t begin from Krishna our knowledge begins from the things around us in this world so broadly speaking we could say that there are three ways in which the human consciousness can ascend towards God we could call it the sociological psychological and cosmological that means that if we consider we are situated in the world and we as souls are situated in a body-mind machine then the body-mind machine is situated in society and society is situated in a universe in a cosmos so these are the three coverings of the soul and through any of these coverings the soul may start enquiring so we may look at the people around us and sometimes people behave in strange ways sometimes people frustrate us sometimes people thrill us there’s a philosopher existentialist philosopher European he was asked Albert Camus do you believe in hell he said yes now he was known to be an atheist people are surprised that he said he believed in he said what is your conception of hell he said hell means other people so his idea was mixed with people people cause people lie people cheat people betray us so hell means other people so sometimes in our social circles people may let us down so much they may frustrate us so much and that makes us enquire what is life all about? what is life meant for? I long for relationships why is it that relationships are frustrating us so much? and thus we may enquire about something higher so through the frustrating relationships we may enquire whether life has some higher dimension or it may be that we look at the world around and if we look at the beautiful sky so many stars the starlit night looks so captivating where did all this come from? and from that enquiry we may rise towards some higher there must be some higher intelligence which has fashioned all this so this could be another way in which our enquiry may point us towards God or thirdly we may just look inwards thoughts and mind I have consciousness and where does this consciousness come from? so generally we talk about design argument for the existence of God how things in this world are well designed and therefore there must be a God there is also another argument it’s called argument from consciousness towards God argument from consciousness means that consciousness which all of us have this is different from everything else that we see in the world the whole world is filled with matter but there is something within us that experiences matter this is sweet this is bitter this is enjoyable this is frustrating so how does matter evolve to produce something that experiences matter what is experience? how does experience of matter take place? so the more one studies this the more one will understand that actually this capacity to experience matter and whatever it is that is experiencing matter that is of an entirely different nature as compared to matter itself and that consciousness is having some higher source this consciousness is different from matter and this consciousness must have a source in some supreme consciousness it’s an elaborate argument I’m just giving a threadbare outline of the argument that by seeing the qualitative difference between matter and consciousness we understand that consciousness is a fundamental property of nature and consciousness must come from some source and therefore that source must be supremely conscious it’s like say we are in this house and suddenly we find a gold ring falling on the ground now if there is nothing else that is golden over here and there is only one golden ring where does this golden ring come from? there must be some gold ore somewhere from which this ring came so I have not seen the gold ring golden ore but just by seeing the gold ring I infer there must be some source for this similarly by observing the presence of consciousness we can infer the presence of supreme consciousness now why I talk about these three broad approaches is that for our philosophy the Atma is covered in three layers the Adhyatmik the Bhautik and the Adhidaivik so Adhyatmik refers to the body mind Adhibhautik refers to the society and Adhidaivik refers to the nature so the soul is encased in all these three coverings and through these coverings the soul experiences various things in this world so karakarana kartrutve hetu prakritruchyate purushyaha sukha dukkhana bhukhrutve kathruchyate Bhagavad Gita Krishna says that cause and effect these happen within the arena of material nature cause and effect this leads to this that leads to that that happens in the arena of material nature but happiness and distress are experienced by consciousness by the conscious being because of the desire to enjoy karakarana kartrutve hetu prakritruchyate cause and effect they happen in the material domain but purushyaha sukha dukkhana experience happen in distress because bhukhrutve hetruchyate say a child is playing a video game and there is a grand auto effect or whatever this happens that happens that happens all that is happening in the video game is simply as per the way the video game has been programmed you could say as per the laws of electronics the laws of physics everything that is happening this car move this way this car go this way this is shot down all that happens is based on the laws of physics but the player who is playing the game the player experiences because of the desire to enjoy whatever they want to do want to happen opposite happens so frustrating all those emotions a child is watching a movie a child is watching a horror movie and the mother is watching the child now the child watching the horror movie goes through all sorts of horror trembling, crying, horripilating now the mother is not experiencing any of the emotions cause the mother is not interested in the horror so whatever is happening on the screen is happening by the way the movie has been programmed it’s all as per the laws of physics whatever shooting was done and after that it was all shot it was all stored in a either a reel or a digital format and then it has been played out but what we are experiencing depends on the way our consciousness is invested so presently our consciousness which is in these three coverings the psychophysical, the sociological the cosmological the soul experiences various phenomena in relation to other beings and normally our consciousness stays caught here it doesn’t go to anything higher it is that even when people go to God people at a religious or a pious level not a spiritual level even when they go to God their purpose is to if in these three layers something is going wrong please set it right maybe we have a relationship up and down and people are not behaving properly then we pray to God please set this right or say our health is not good then we pray that please set it right or say some earthquake occurs at that time we start chanting Krishna’s name intensely we pray to Krishna please let nothing go wrong so when some disruptions happen in these three layers that is the time when we go to God at these times we are not interested in God’s mercy we are interested in that things don’t go wrong in these three layers where we are functioning and as long as our consciousness is caught in these three layers we cannot perceive Krishna directly all that we can perceive is that there are changes happening in these three layers and we would we don’t want unfavourable changes to happen and if there is some higher being may he make things right so there is most religions in this world whether it be Christianity or Islam or Hinduism they all operate at this level this is the level of what is called as Karmakand Karmakand means we pray to God so that he keeps things alright in this world Prabhupada would quote the famous Christian prayer O father, thou art in heaven hallowed be thy name give us our daily bread and he would say this prayer is good that people are at least going to God but he says this prayer reveals people’s love for bread not love for God and he said that if people start getting bread by some other means then there is no need for them to go to God in more analytical terms there are these four Purusharthas what are the four Purusharthas? Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha now most people are not interested in Dharma therefore Dharma is sick they are not interested in virtues for being religious most people practise Dharma so that they will get Artha and Kama and if somehow they get Artha and Kama without them then there is no need for them in fact there is some interesting studies sociological studies correlating religious faith and well-being of people they found time and again that people who believe in God and not just believe in abstract sense but they have some religious commitment they go to a temple they go to a church their religion is expressed in their actions so they have overall better physical, mental and social health that means generally they don’t fall prey so much to addictions they are less prone to suicidal allergies less prone to depression that’s mental physical level also if they get a heart attack, stroke they recover faster on an average they live between 7 to 11 years more than non-religious people there is a Oxford Handbook of Religion and Health which compiled 2000 studies done correlating religious faith and health across the world and they could talk together in a meta-study similarly they found that at a social level if people are religious marriages are stabler relationships are better taken care of their parents take more care of children so the generational and cross-generational ties are stronger but curiously there are some studies which indicate that the more religious a place the more violent it is at an individual level religion seems to benefit people but at a collective level higher religious faith doesn’t correlate with greater well-being so now there are various reasons for this one major reason is that where in today’s world large number of people are religious it is often because of two factors one is because it is a state-ordained religion the state is forcing people to believe in you have to practise this and religious faith is something which has to be embraced it cannot be imposed if it is imposed people become simply superficial, hypocritical so when people become hypocritical then they put on a facade of being religious but they do all kinds of non-religious and anti-religious things another reason they say is that quite often people embrace religion at a collective level because they are in a lot of distress so people who are in a economically deprived area so a church or a religious organisation may offer them some relief but if you see when that happens at that level because people are economically deprived the crime in that area seems to be more so there is there is a causal connection and there is a correlational connection so causal and correlational in science are two different things suppose we find that people who service their cars regularly their cars last longer cars function well longer now this could be because the regular servicing maintains the car longer or it could also be that people who have the habit of servicing their cars regularly because they are regulated they also drive their car properly they also overall take care of the car and that’s why the car goes longer so many of you know in our tradition a bird comes and sits on the tree and a fruit falls down so now and the bird flies away so now what caused what did the because the bird sat on the tree that’s why the fruit fell down or the fruit fell down and because of this the bird got alarmed and the bird flew away or there is a completely unrelated event now the bird we can’t speak and find out the fruit is what a conscious being for us again to talk with so we can’t know sometimes things happen in a way that we can’t exactly correlate so this example I gave so as to point out that at a material level at a material level we cannot always perceive the effects of transcendence in a predictable way at a material level some studies may indicate religious faith is good and those who want to believe in God they see all this is true and those which don’t want to believe in God see wherever religious faith becomes more people become more violent now it’s not true that where religious faith becomes more people become more violent it is that wherever religious faith is state administered there violence seems to be more but it’s also been true that wherever atheism is being state administered There also violence has been there.
The biggest violence that happened in the recent world was in the communist bloc. In Soviet Russia and China, actually almost the number of people that were killed by state-sponsored violence where more number of people killed in the First World War and Second World War combined together. So, where am I going by all this analysis? I am making the point that Krishna is transcendental.
And Krishna cannot be perceived directly by what we see in this world. He can be inferred. So, Prabhupada gives the example that if we are sitting in a house and we want to see the sun.
When the sun rises, we can see the sunlight. But if the sun doesn’t rise, then no matter what we do, we cannot see the sun. Bhaktisandhra Thakur would tell the story that there was once a very wealthy landlord.
And he said, I want to see the sun. He said, why? He said, just move on, the sun will rise, you can see. He said, no, I want to see the sun in the night.
No, you can’t see the sun in the night. No, he said, you can see when it is night, it is dark. But if we put on a light, we will be able to see.
We sit even in the dark also. So, he said that, let’s make a very bright light. And we will make such a bright light that we will see the sun at night.
And wherever there are wealthy people, there are usually other people who want to exploit the wealthy people. So, another person came along. Yes, yes, you know, whatever is your desire, we will fulfil.
But we will have to make a very big light. We will have to make a bigger light, bigger light, bigger light. And simply started fleecing money from this landlord.
And eventually, he said that we will make a big light, big light, big light, big light. All that happened was that the light was becoming bigger and bigger. The treasury of that landlord was becoming smaller and smaller.
And eventually, the treasury became empty. The light lit, but there was no sun to be seen at night. So, Bhakti Sankhya Thakur tells a story to illustrate how that just as we cannot demand that the sun be seen at night, similarly, we cannot demand that we see God.
Science and scientific studies can point towards God, but God is above science. We cannot see Him directly. Similarly, whatever we do, we may go to a temple, we may go to a dham, we may do various miserable activities.
By them alone, we can’t see God. The sun is seen when by its own accord it rises. So, similarly, we see the sun by service attitudes.
When we serve Krishna, when we are pleased with our service, by His own free will, He manifests. So, Krishna manifests by His choice, when He is pleased with our service. The sphurtya is associated with the word sphurti.
So, sphurti is different from smriti. Smriti is recollection, and sphurti is, we could say, inspiration. So, recollection means that we consciously strive to remember Krishna.
I’ll think about this pastime, I’ll think about that philosophy, that verse, I’ll think about this, I’ll think about that. So, through sphurti, we consciously try to remember Krishna. That is sphurti.
But sphurti means Krishna Himself manifests His remembrance within us. So, the Vrajavasis who were in Vrindavan, they were constantly remembering Krishna. Krishna was their heart and soul.
But even then, sometimes they would get sphurti. Krishna would reveal within their hearts, and they would get lost. When Uddhava, who was himself a great devotee, when he went from Mathura and later to Dwaraka, he went to meet the Vrajavasis to console them.
Krishna, the 10th canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam, has 90 chapters. The first 40 chapters describe Krishna’s Vrindavan Gita. The next 10 chapters, Krishna is in Dwaraka.
And from the 51st chapter, Krishna is in Mathura. And the last 40 chapters, overall, they describe Krishna in Dwaraka. Krishna doesn’t stay in Dwaraka.
He goes to various places from there. But when Uddhava goes to Vrindavan and he sees the Vrajavasis, when he’s talking about Krishna, and he’s a devotee, and he can understand other devotees at what level they are, he’s stunned to see the level of spontaneous absorption in Krishna that the Vrajavasis have, and that Maharaja Yashoda have, and that the Gopis have. And he tries to tell them, your life is perfected.
You have such a love for Krishna. And the Vrajavasis just can’t appreciate what he’s saying. If we had so much love for Krishna, then why did Krishna leave and go? If Krishna left us, then what is our love for Krishna? What is the use of our loving Krishna? So for them, they were completely absorbed in Krishna.
And that absorption was not by their conscious meditation. It was not by their conscious attempt to focus on Krishna. It was simply by Krishna being pleased and Krishna relieving himself from the pain.
This na bhaved grahenam indriyai. This is a topic that Krishna talks about. This is addressed in the 10th Canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam also, where Parikshit Maharaj asks this question, that if Krishna is transcendental, then how can you perceive with the senses? Krishna is transcendental, so Krishna cannot be seen with the eyes, Krishna cannot be heard with the ears, Krishna cannot be chanted about with the tongue.
Then why are we practising bhakti? If Krishna cannot be experienced by all this? So it’s a complex philosophical answer that is given over there. What is explained is in three parts. First part is that, yes, it is true that Krishna is transcendental and we can’t perceive him with our senses.
But when we direct our senses in a mood of service towards Krishna, then that expresses our heart’s desire to Krishna. Then, when we use our senses, that’s why the idea here is atahasya krishnamodhi na bhaved grahenam indriyai sevonmukhe jeeva So when we chant Krishna’s name, even when we go to the temple and do darshan of Krishna, even when we recite Krishna’s pastimes, at that time, what are we doing? We can’t force Krishna to manifest. We can’t just experience Krishna directly.
What we do is, we serve Krishna with whatever abilities we have, with whatever resources we have. And we serve Krishna with these resources. Then, Krishna becomes pleased.
And when Krishna becomes pleased, then he chooses to manifest. So in that sense, the experience of Krishna is categorically different from the experience of anything else in this world. There is a poet, a poet who has written about Lord Ram and he is composing poetry about Lord Ram.
And he says, Lord Ram’s eyes are as beautiful as… He looks around in the world, thinks, Lord Ram’s eyes are as beautiful as… Lord Ram’s eyes. There is no point to compare. Similarly, the Lakubhagavatam, a book written by Guru Prabhupada Swami, so he describes that there are the various kings who have been imprisoned by Jarasandha.
And these kings who have been imprisoned by Jarasandha, they are released by Krishna. And when they are released by Krishna, at that time, they pray to Krishna. And then they say that, Actually, O Lord, when we were hoping that you would rescue us, we offered many prayers to you and we thought we were glorifying you with great choice poetry.
But now that we have befell you, now that we have seen you, now we understand that actually, our glorification was actually an insult. Why an insult? He said, You, somebody living in a small village, their conception of a wealthy person is the landlord of the village. Oh, we have so much wealth.
Now, again, I think it is Bhakti Swami Raghupuram, one of the Acharyas tells a story that once a king is going through a village and there is an old woman who is carrying some basket on her back. So the king is walking incognito, secretly, and the king says, I will carry that for you. And he carries it for her.
And the old lady, she is very pleased. She says, Oh, you are so kind. May God bless you.
May you become as wealthy as the landlord in this village. Now, in her experience, the landlord is the wealthiest person. Now the king will have millions of times wealthier than the landlord.
But from her scale of reference, what is it? It is actually the landlord who is the wealthiest person. So similarly for us, similarly for us, for us Krishna, we have no experience of Krishna. So we offer some comparisons with this world to give us some indication of Krishna’s beauty.
But those comparisons are inadequate. The Acharyas always say that Krishna is blue. So once, some devotees, they read in Prabhupada’s books that Krishna is blue in colour.
And then, they were making deities in their temple, and they went and made the deities completely blue in colour. Normally we have Krishna depicted in dark complexion or in white complexion. But Krishna completely blue.
And then, devotees say, what is this? No, Krishna is blue. Krishna is blue, but he is not the blue that we experience. Krishna, when we say he is blue, whatever description that we have in scripture of Krishna, actually, they are indicative.
They are not descriptive. They point us in the direction of Krishna. But ultimately when we experience Krishna, it’s an entirely different experience.
When we use words to describe Krishna, it is not that the words can actually describe Krishna. The words give us some indication to direct our thought. Ultimately it is through realisation that we experience Krishna.
So, for us, if we want to experience Krishna, if we want to go closer to Krishna, it is the service attitude, it is the commitment to serving Krishna, that is the most important. So, Krishna Prabhupada, when he was in, when he started the Krishna consciousness movement, at that time, initially the devotees knew nothing about Krishna. In fact, when Prabhupada first time, he had a, he was in that storefront in 22nd Avenue in New York.
At that time he was conducting a programme and the devotees thought, they were not devoting, they were just becoming devotees, let’s do something to please Swamiji. And they got various pictures. What they thought were traditional Indian pictures, they went to the Indian shop and they got various pictures and put them there.
And then, Prabhupada came and looked at all the pictures and then there was a picture of Hanuman lifting mountain, a famous picture of Hanuman going across the sky. And the devotees had no idea, they said, Prabhupada, this is very nice. So, Prabhupada said, Swamiji, what is this? Is it a cat? So, Prabhupada, Hanuman is worshipped by millions of people in India, the disciples had no idea what was what.
They just didn’t have any background. But the way Prabhupada talked about Krishna, the way Prabhupada inspired them by talking about Krishna, they were ready to give up their life for serving Krishna. And they were so dedicated, travelling across the world to share Krishna’s messages in various parts of the world.
But they also expected, I agree with Prabhupada’s early disciples, and he came to know Krishna. Prabhupada one day said, Swamiji, I have been chatting sixteen rounds and following the early disciples now for a full six months. I have still not seen Krishna.
When will I see Krishna? So, Prabhupada just looked at him and he said, Prabhupada gave him the Bhagavad Gita. So he says that he was a little surprised. He was expecting an answer.
Then he read it. It is the eleventh chapter of the Bhagavad Gita where Krishna is being requested to show the universal form. So he says that, Arjuna is saying, My dear lord, if you think it is possible for me to see your magnificent, your universal form, then please reveal this form to me.
So Prabhupada said, read this. Read again. And he revealed it again.
And he says that, So Prabhupada says, If you, O lord, think that it is possible for me to see your form, then please reveal it to me. So Prabhupada said that we cannot demand we cannot demand that Krishna show himself to us. Bhaktiswami said, I had something very provocative or thought-provoking, thought-provoking ways of talking about spiritual truths.
So he said that, No one can gate-crash into the kingdom of God. No one can think, I have done so much bhakti, now I want to gate-crash into the kingdom of God. Whatever devotion we have, no matter what we do, we cannot demand that the sun rise.
The sun will rise of its own accord. So similarly, Krishna will manifest by his own plan. Now, does that mean we just can’t do anything? We just sit and wait? No, not like that.
So here, Prabhupada is describing two levels of devotion. That, if we just hear and chant about Krishna, by that itself, many of the abhadras, many of the inauspicious things in our heart, will get destroyed. So then, the Parpur Prabhupada writes, I have done so much bhakti, that even by the mechanical act of chanting and hearing about Krishna, that itself will keep our conditionings at bay.
They will hold the conditionings back. But the conditionings will get eliminated by Krishna’s mercy. So, I’ll conclude with this analysis.
It may take some time, but there are two aspects. One, if there is some darkness. Now, if the room is dark, one option is that we light a flashlight and then we see our way.
Now, as soon as the flashlight is turned off, the darkness will be there. As long as the flashlight is on, the light is there. But, if the electric power comes back, the light is there.
Or, even bigger, if the sunlight comes along, then there is no need for the flashlight. The light is just there, straight. So, if we are in dark, at that time, darkness is the prominent thing.
And, our attempt to light is constantly trying to push back the darkness. And, as soon as the flashlight goes off, the darkness takes over. But, when the sun rises, at that time, there is no need to fight off the darkness.
The darkness is simply removed. Similarly, these metaphors talk about the seeker stage and the seer stage in bhakti. In the seeker stage, bhakti is like our flashlight.
The practise of bhakti, it is by the practise of bhakti that we fight back our conditions. We feel anger, we feel depression, we feel greed, we feel lust, we feel this, we feel envy, we feel all these different emotions. These are not good for me.
I don’t want them. So, we fight them back by the practise of bhakti. So, at that time, we start feeling angry, we chant Hare Krishna, we pray to Krishna, and we divert.
I’m feeling angry, but I’m not going to vent out my anger. And we control ourselves. And it works.
If we actually practise bhakti, the negativity that is there, it gets fought back. It’s pushed back. But, after some time, it comes back.
Again, we push back. It comes back. We push back.
So, it goes on. That is the tug of war that goes on in the seeker’s heart. But, mechanically, by the practise of bhakti, the conditionings can be pushed back.
However, when we rise to the stage of a seer, when we become purified, then Krishna becomes manifested in our heart. So, I already talked about smriti and sphurti. Smriti is where we are trying to remember Krishna.
We are trying to concentrate our mind. We are trying to chant the name of Krishna attentively. We are trying to study about Krishna.
The smriti is where it’s like with a flashlight, we are pushing back the darkness. But, sphurti is like the sun rising. Once the sun rises, then, by a higher arrangement, the darkness just gets dissipated.
So, when Krishna self-manifests in our heart, at that time, the ignorance, the darkness, all the lower cravings just disappear and they disappear forever. Whereas, in this world, when the sun rises also, the sun will set after some time. But, when the Krishna sun rises in the heart, then he never sets.
yomam pashyati sarvatra sarvam ca main pashyati tasyaham na pranashyami sacham na pranashyati yomam pashyati sarvatra One who sees me everywhere, sarvam ca main pashyati One who sees everything in me, tasyaham na pranashyami That person is never lost to me, nor am I ever lost to that person. sacham na pranashyati And this verse, where one sees Krishna everywhere and sees everything in Krishna, this verse is actually describing a very exalted level of devotion that is often seen, very rarely seen in this world. The Gopis of Vrindavan described this level, they depicted this level of devotion.
When Krishna disappeared, when the Gopis had gone to meet Krishna in Vrindavan, the interaction of the Gopis with Krishna is described in the 10th canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam, the 5th chapter, 29-33, which I call the Rasamacharya. And in that, the first chapter describes the Gopis hear Krishna’s flute and they run to see Krishna. The second chapter describes how the Gopis see Krishna and there is some talk between the Gopis and Krishna and then Krishna disappears.
The 31st chapter describes the Gopis sing a song, the Gopi Gita, in intense separation from Krishna, begging Krishna to appear. And in the 32nd chapter, Krishna appears. And Krishna appears and then again the Gopis and Krishna have a talk with each other.
And then in the 33rd chapter, the rasa dance is performed between the Gopis and Krishna. So now in the 32nd chapter, and this itself is a series of four classes, it’s a very exotic topic, I’ll focus on our theme of when God may see. So, when the Gopis are, Krishna has come back, at one level, the Gopis are angry with Krishna.
How could you have left us like this and gone away? We left everything and came for you, you left us and went away like this. How could you do that? But at the same time, they are afraid. If they express their anger to Krishna, Krishna may go away.
And they don’t want that. Sometimes, you know, say, if a child suddenly runs away from home, the parents are mad with fear and they are mad with anger also. Now when the child is found and the child comes back home, at one point, the parents ask the child, where are you? They are happy the child has come back.
At the same time, they are angry. How could you go away like this? But if they express their anger, the child may go away again. So you don’t know, at that time, you are caught in so many emotions, you don’t know which emotion to express and how to express that emotion.
So at that time, the Gopis speak to Krishna indirectly. They say, Krishna, there are different kinds of lovers in this world. Some lovers, you know, if you love that lover, they love back.
And they love back, there are different questions they ask, there are various specifics, that, you know, you offer love and they love back, in proportion. Sometimes we love and they love us back more than us. But sometimes, we love and they don’t care at all.
So, now they don’t refer to Krishna, but sometimes, you know, sometimes people speak about someone in such a way that they don’t mention the name but everybody understood who they are speaking about. So, similarly, Krishna also understood what the Gopis are talking about. And then Krishna replies that actually, even if, so basically they ask, which kind of, among this, which lover is the best? Now Krishna replies that actually, he says, I love everyone.
Even those who don’t care for me, I love them also. He is present in our hearts, and although we don’t care for him, still he stays in our heart. So, he doesn’t abandon even those who turn away from him.
So, in that sense, Krishna loves everyone. And those who turn towards him, he reciprocates. Now, but, it says, the highest level, when, so it’s like, we turn away from Krishna, Krishna still stays with us.
We turn towards him, and Krishna comes closer to us. We become united in love with Krishna. But at the highest level, the Gopis, they don’t see Krishna, and yet they are seeing Krishna everywhere.
When they are separated from Krishna, there is a talk, they look at the trees, and they say, oh, trees, you must have seen Krishna. Where is Krishna? They look at the bumblebees and say, oh, you are friends of Krishna. Please tell us, where is Krishna? They look at the Tulsi plant and they say, oh, you are a great devotee of Krishna.
Please tell us, where is Krishna? They look at the deer, they look at everything, and they just completely absorb in thoughts of Krishna. Not only absorb in thoughts of Krishna, they are actually enacting the pastimes of Krishna. So, Krishna explains to them that, to see, to see me, when I am present, to have me present before you, that is a great fortune, to have a direct saksha darshan of Krishna.
That is a great fortune. He says, but Gopis, you have exhibited such devotion that even when I am not present, you are seeing me everywhere. There are people like Durvadhana, that Krishna is present in front of them, and they can’t see Krishna.
Krishna, he is just doing some magic. He is not God. So here, actually, the Gopis were seeing Krishna in their heart constantly, even when Krishna had disappeared from them.
And Krishna said, I disappeared from you so that you could see me constantly, so that your love could rise to such a high level that you perceived me constantly. It is that you have attained such devotion, you have done such service to me, I can never repay you. God is saying, I can never repay you.
This is the highest tribute that Krishna can offer to anyone. Your service has pleased me so much. You have such devotion that I cannot do anything to be satisfied with your service.
Hanuman comes back after going to Lanka, finding Sita, burning half of Lanka, and then he comes back and tells Ram about his adventures. Ram is so pleased. And he says, Hanuman, you have done such service to me.
He says that I have nothing to offer you. I am just an exiled prince right now. I have nothing to offer you.
Therefore, I will offer you only one thing. I will offer you my embrace. And he embraces Hanuman.
Now the Acharya has explained, Ramayan commentator has explained that ultimately the Lord’s form is the supreme treasure. He is the object of meditation for the greatest of the yogis. And when the Lord offers Hanuman his embrace, the Lord is offering himself.
And that is the greatest reward. That is the greatest reward. So, the point is that even when we can’t see Krishna directly, even when the gopis could see Krishna, Krishna went away, so that they could constantly see Krishna.
And how were they seeing Krishna? Because they had such a great desire to serve Krishna. When the gopis came to the forest, it was to serve Krishna. The gopis were thinking, Krishna, you have gone away from us and that is causing us great distress.
But even greater distress we are suffering because we are thinking you are alone in the forest and your feet are being scratched by the pebbles and the thorns and the twigs in the forest. And thinking that your feet are scratched, that is causing our heart to rip apart. Please come back, Krishna.
So, when Krishna tells Narada Muni, in the first conversation with Bhagavan, Krishna gives him one darshan. And Narada Muni says, Narada is Narada’s boy. And he disappears.
And then Narada tries to see again and again and again, tries to repeat the process but he can’t see. But then Narada hears an invisible voice and he says, because you are not yet pure at heart, will you not be able to see me? But I gave you this one glimpse so that you could follow the process of purification. I gave you this one glimpse so that you will hanker for me more and more.
And as you hanker for me more and more, all your worldly hankerings will disappear by that. As your worldly hankerings will disappear, then you will see me constantly. So, in that light Narada can’t see the Lord much beyond that one glimpse.
But he becomes intensely devoted. And then eventually the Lord reveals himself and then Narada travels across the universe singing the glories of the Lord. So that happens because the Lord reveals himself.
So bhakti is a process of devotion is a combination of human dedication and divine revelation. Human dedication. With dedication we practise bhakti.
And then in reciprocation there is a divine revelation. So we cannot accelerate the divine revelation by simply any mechanical means. You know, I just go from this place to this place, I’ll go advance.
I’ll go from this person to that person. Oh, I’m reading this book, there’s not much knowledge. I’ll read that book, then I’ll get much more knowledge.
I’m chanting this mantra, there’s not much knowledge. I’ll chant that mantra. Now just changing these externals, they alone will not lead to spiritual advancement.
It is the human dedication that is required in a committed way of Krishna that attracts the divine revelation. So to the extent we become dedicated to Krishna then the connection with Krishna will be established. And we will start experiencing satisfaction even in this life.
And ultimately we’ll experience supreme satisfaction as we become connected with Krishna constantly, both through our recollection and His revelation. So to summarise, I spoke today about how Krishna can be seen and how He can’t be seen. And I started by talking about how all knowledge comes from God, but it doesn’t begin from God.
Our human enquiry, we look at the world around us, we look at the people around us, we look at ourselves. So through the psychological, sociological or the cosmological approaches, then we may think about higher realities. Most people, even when they think about God, they’re not really thinking about God, they’re thinking about what God can do to set things right in these three levels of realities.
So when we ask God for bread, it shows our love for bread, not necessarily love for God. How is God to be approached separately? When people get Artha and Kama, they feel there’s no need for Artha, no need for Dharma. At an individual level, religious faith seems to benefit people, but at a collective level, societies which are religious are not necessarily better societies.
That is because it may be that people are more economically deprived or people are more hypocritical because religion is forced on them. So by, at the material level, we can’t necessarily in a predictable way perceive the effect of transcendence. So Krishna is transcendental, he has to perceive in a transcendental way.
It’s like, we cannot just light a lamp and make it bigger and bigger and bigger, and then we see the sun. The sun rises of its own accord. Similarly, by human reasoning alone, we cannot force God’s presence.
God’s presence will come by his revelation. Then I talk about what is the purpose of the practise of bhakti, which we are doing with our senses. This we do simply to serve the Lord.
Whatever facilities we have, the body, the senses, the mind is a facility that we have, we use them to serve the Lord. And by serving the Lord, we please him. When our service pleases him, then he reciprocates with his revelation.
And so, his revelation is what leads to the perception of the Lord. We talk about Smriti being our human recollection, and Smriti being the divine revelation. And the Rajwasis are constantly, intermittently, but very frequently absorbing Smriti of the Lord.
And the human, we talk about with our sadhana bhakti, is it that if Krishna doesn’t reveal himself, what is the use of sadhana bhakti? Sadhana bhakti is like using the torch to see our way in the darkness. The torch helps in pushing back the darkness. The extreme part of sadhana bhakti, our anarthas do subside.
But then, as soon as sadhana bhakti intensity goes down, the anarthas come back again. But eventually, when attraction to Krishna awakens and Krishna reveals himself, at that time it’s like the sun rising, and there is no torch needed. That doesn’t mean we stop sadhana bhakti.
We still do the bhakti activity, but we do them actually out of love for Krishna. And we don’t do them, or we don’t need them to dissipate the darkness in the heart. The darkness is already dissipated by Krishna’s presence.
And I concluded by talking about how the gopis, they were seeing Krishna in front of them, but Krishna disappeared. They started seeing Krishna deeply, constantly, in their heart. So, seeing Krishna in his absence is the zenith, the pinnacle of Krishna consciousness.
And that is exhibited by the gopis. And for us the sadhakas also, for Narada Muni, he saw Krishna, and then he could no longer see Krishna. But then that created within him a hunger to see Krishna.
And that purified him of everything else. And then he came to live in Krishna’s presence constantly. Similarly, for us, at the sadhaka stage, sometimes we will get some spurti, we will get absorbed in some kirtan, we will hear some class, we will get some deep insight and just transform us.
But for the remaining time, we have to cultivate, consciously strive to remember Krishna. And by this remembrance of Krishna, as we become purified, then slowly and surely we will rise to the stage where we will please Krishna and by Krishna’s self-revelation, the heart will be filled with Krishna. We cannot gate-crash into the kingdom of Krishna.
We cannot simply by relocating from here to there or changing some external, suddenly see Krishna. It is only by the human dedication that we attract the divine revelation. Thank you very much.
Hare Krishna. Are there any questions or comments? You mentioned that through sadhana, even as a torch-light example, you take anarthas and practise it daily. My personal experience is even while doing sadhanas, I think anarthas don’t go down, don’t disappear.
Even while chanting, you might think of very absurd thoughts, which you are not proud of. So, does it mean that my sadhana, Krishna’s name is not working? I am chanting Hare Krishna, and my mind wanders to something I don’t want to wander. How do you explain this? We keep our anarthas back, but sometimes while chanting also, we get many absurd thoughts.
So, why is that? It’s like, suppose there are thieves, and if you have a gun, and you shoot the gun, when you shoot in the air, the thieves will run away. So, sometimes, if there is some riot, and the police just show that we have a gun, and shoot in the air, they run away. But, suppose there are thieves, and those thieves know that this person doesn’t know how to take aim and shoot a gun.
So, if they hear a gunshot, the thieves will themselves come there to catch the gun. So, normally, the shooting of the gun will drive away the thieves. But, in some special situation, the shooting of the gun may attract the thieves.
Why? Because they feel, oh, this person has a gun, and this person doesn’t know how to use the gun. So, we will take the gun and use it for our purposes. So, then at that time, the shooting of the gun, the gunshots, they simply inform the thieves that there is a gun over here, and it attracts them to come.
So, the gunshot is meant to drive away the thieves, but in this case, the gunshot can have the exact opposite effect. So, similarly for us, the chanting of the holy names and the remembrance of Krishna certainly has the capacity to drive away the thieves, but for that, we have to at least strive to absorb our consciousness in Krishna. But if we are not doing that, then we are chanting, but our mind is going free.
At least, if we are driving a car through a crowded road, then the soul is here, the body is here. Now, the soul’s consciousness normally comes through the mind to the body, and then it goes to the outer world. So, when in the outer world there is some unpredictability, some uncertainty, then at that time, we are forced to pay attention.
Like, oh, this car is coming from here, this car is coming from here. So, even if the mind is saying something, we don’t pay much attention over there. Because we need to pay physical attention at the physical level.
But then, especially in America, you drive across country, long distances, clear roads, so, people just lose focus. People just nod off for some time on the road. They nod off, and then the car goes off.
It can be very dangerous. So, when at the physical level our attention is not required, then our attention goes off at the mental level. So, during chanting, because the same mantra has been chanted again and again, we often feel it’s not very interesting.
But then, at that time, we are chanting the mantra at the physical level, but we are not really investing our consciousness there. And then, wherever the mind is going, we are going along with that. So, it is that when we are chanting, quite often, we are not chanting.
It is the tongue that is chanting, the mind is wandering, and the soul is thinking which of the two to do. And most of the time, the soul thinks that the mind’s wandering is going to more interesting places. And thus, even the normal level, the attention that we have, the normal consciousness that we have, that is also not there in chanting.
At the normal level, we have some physical attention, some attention like, OK, I’m here, I’m going there. But during chanting, we may grow even more absent-minded. That’s why it’s vital that chanting be accompanied by hearing.
To the extent that we hear about Krishna, we hear about the importance of remembering Krishna, we hear about the glory of the Holy Name, that will give us some impetus to ensure that we try to invest our consciousness in Krishna. And we can experience that our life has become transformed to some extent. We have become purified.
Maybe at the time of chanting, the mind is wandering, but still overall, our anathas have gone down. We have experienced some things, that’s why we are practising. But over a period of time, when the chanting becomes too mechanical, then there’s no consciousness involved in it.
And that’s why the mind almost, so chanting time means, it’s like the, normally, chanting is like the gunshot, the things will go away. All the material desires, the other things, they’ll go away. But, when now we start chanting, now for the next two hours, this person is not going to do anything practical.
So, we can come and do whatever we want with this person’s mind. Take his thoughts here, take his thoughts there, he’s not going to do anything. So, in this case, the gunshots attract the things to come.
So, we can come and steal his gun, it’s like that. That’s why it’s important for us to focus our, to focus ourselves on the purpose of our chanting. We have to try to remember that purpose and maybe have some thoughts, some quotes about the glories of the holy name, which you keep in front of us when we chant.
Or, maybe hear something about the importance of chanting before we start chanting. Or, in between the chanting also, we try to take a little break and again, read some verse about chanting, recite some thought about chanting and remind ourselves. Then we will experience the propensity to chant.
Any other questions or comments? Yes. Krishna is detached from this material world and we also become transcendental. Okay.
In the Bhagavad Gita it is said that if we understand that Krishna is detached from this world, then we also become transcendental. नमां कर्मान्युन्पन्ति नमे कर्मः फलेस्नुभा इती माम्यो विजानाति कर्मः भी नसबत्ति तेख That is the verse we are talking about. This is in the fourth chapter.
Krishna says that those who understand नमां कर्मान्युन्पन्ति In the third, fourth chapter the same thing comes several times that when people understand that when those who understand that I do not aspire for the results for the fruits of any work for the results of any work. नमां कर्मान्युन्पन्ति नमे कर्मः फलेस्नुभा I am not attached to the fruits of work nor am I attached to any kind of work. इती माम्यो विजानाति Those who understand this about me कर्मः भी नसबत्ति तेख They also will not be attached to the fruits of their work.
They will also not be bound by work. I am not bound by work. I am not attached to the fruits of work.
Those who understand this about me they will also not be bound by their work. So if you look at this verse and its broad context the whole initial part of the Bhagavad Gita is about how we should how we can work without bondage in this way. Work without being bound by karma.
And in that context Krishna says that He is that while materialistic people may work with attachment सप्ता कर्मण्ड विद्वाम् सु यथा कुर्वन्ति भारत कुर्या विद्वाम् स्था असत्यस् चितिर्शी लोको संदर्भाम् They just have the attached work out of with ignorance because they are attached to the fruits of the work. The detached can similarly work in this world for setting an example for others. And he says as a matter of that in that context he says actually even I work although I have no duty यदि हम नवर्तें यातु कर्मण्ड नतिनिता He says although I have no duty I am very diligently engaged in work.
Why? Because otherwise people will follow my example and they will be lost. So it’s we could say that Krishna’s pastimes in this world are although they are in this world they are not at all of this world. It’s Krishna exists at a different level of reality and from that level of reality temporarily he manifests at this level.
And when he manifests at this level his purpose is primarily to attract us to him. So when we understand Krishna is functioning simply as Leela in this world. He is not attached.
When he fights it’s not that he wants something It’s not that he has some enemies whom he wants to kill. He is simply acting out of love for the welfare of everyone even those who are being killed by his hands. So when we understand that Krishna is completely purely, completely selflessly motivated.
He has no selfish motivation of any kind. When we understand that the whole conception that God is so loving and so lovable. When we understand that then we cannot but fall in love with him.
And when we fall in love with him then we just are not attracted to anything of this world. That same thing which is talked in third chapter Krishna elaborates a different focus in the fourth chapter. In the third chapter he says that I act to set an example for others.
And in the fourth chapter he says actually I act to set an example for others and those who understand this truth about me they will not be bound. But then Krishna says in the fourth chapter that I am transcendental. Those who understand that my appearance and activities are transcendental they become attached to me and they attain me.
So in both ways the stress is that Krishna’s activities are not a part of this world. Krishna exists in a divine realm and just appears in this realm for giving us a glimpse of life in another. So I gave a whole class on this movie metaphor for understanding God’s presence.
I was studying about this horror movie. The example is a child is watching the horror movie and the child is getting horrified. The mother is not affected.
But the child is so caught in the horror movie that if the mother just touches the child the child is thinking of the whole monster that is there in the horror movie the shapeshifter and the child thinks the mother is also the shapeshifter and the child gets horrified. But the mother can’t even touch the child at that time. Actually the super soul Krishna is right next to us in our own hearts.
But we can’t perceive his presence because we are so caught in this world pursuing various things which we hope will give us pleasure or avoiding various things which we fear will cause us trouble that we have no mental space left for perceiving Krishna. So when we are so consumed by this how will Krishna manifest to us? So as the mother is seeing this child is watching this TV and absorbed in the TV and next the mother cannot touch the child. So what does the mother do? The child is watching the TV and the mother has another remote.
And with that remote the mother just quietly changes the channel. The channel changes at that time now the mother starts some other recording where she is with her other children and she is playing with the children and the children are so happy with her they are all around her and they are playing and this child this is so nice this is so sweet sometimes there are TVs which are almost like multi channel TVs on one big TV screen you can see multiple channels multiple programmes that you can see so I was at one place and they were having like four channels on the same screen and there is one person with four remotes and simultaneously he is crawling through all four channels trying to find something interesting he is going to a hotel for a programme so there in the hotel lounge this person was sitting anyway so suppose there is one channel one programme is going on in another channel the mother starts this programme with this video footage of you know she with her children has a sweet loving reciprocation this child is watching the horror movie what is this that’s nice let me see this child starts watching that child sees the mother with the children she is so sweet, she is so nice I want to know more about her child starts watching this programme more and more he starts getting more and more attached to her, such a nice person and as he gets more and more attached the child is watching the child feel more comfortable more peaceful and then the mother approaches the child and says oh mother you are here, oh wonderful the child embraces the mother so like that for us although Krishna is present right next to the spiritual level we can’t perceive him right now so what Krishna does is he manifests at the material level and performs pastimes so here we hear so much about this sports star this movie star, this politician this that, about so many people activities we keep hearing in this world when Krishna manifests in this world we have an opportunity to hear about him also and if we can get attracted to Krishna when we hear about him then it’s like we start watching that channel and when Krishna manifests in this world and when we hear about Krishna, still we are hearing with our material senses only but so we are here the TV screen is here and we are watching now the child is watching the mother also in the TV screen but by becoming attached to the child, to the mother on the TV screen, the child becomes more receptive and when the mother touches, the mother manifests over here the child accepts so similarly for us when Krishna manifests in the material realm whether it is when he was there on the planet performing his fast times or now when we hear about his fast times with our material ears by this our consciousness gets slowly attracted to us and the more our consciousness becomes attached to him then we become more receptive more attuned to Krishna’s presence within us and then eventually when we are ready we say Krishna, that same lord whom we have been hearing for so long he is with us right now and that brings us great joy that’s how when we understand it, Krishna is not just Krishna’s fast times or Krishna’s activities are not just another entertainment plot they are about a person who is real, who is eternally real and who really loves me who is right next to me at that time when we understand it we snap out of illusion that’s how when we understand that Krishna is not obligated Krishna is not bound, Krishna is not material desirous Krishna is transcendental then we also become transcendental does that answer your question? thank you if we know that we are part and parcel of Krishna and eventually our aim is to go back to what had Krishna and so why do you have Krishna in the first place? my question is if our ultimate aim is to go back to Krishna when we were already there before we were born what was the purpose of this creation? what is the purpose of creation? the purpose of creation is to give souls an opportunity to experience life according to their freedom the very nature of love is there has to be freedom and if a boy goes to a girl and wants to propose to that girl he falls on the knees and offers her a flower offers her a ring she says no it takes out a gun marry me or I’ll kill you that is not love if there is force there cannot be any love over there so all of us have been given free will and the very existence of free will necessitates the existence of an arena that free will can be exercised you can do whatever you want provided you don’t do anything I don’t want you are absolutely free to express your mind as long as you agree with me that is pseudo freedom that is not freedom so Krishna has given us free will and because he has given us free will that also means we are given the arena to exercise that free will and that arena to exercise the free will is this world in this world, broadly speaking the world serves two purposes one is experimentation and the other is rectification experimentation means I want to use my free will and do a hundred other things or you want to experiment try it out so we have various species of life and various varieties of enjoyment in this world through which we can experiment and after that we realise this really gives me happiness then comes the rectification rectification means at that time we start turning towards Krishna we start redirecting our heart towards Krishna and for that also the world offers this facility that we want to turn so the existence in this world is firstly an arena where we can exercise our free will exercise our free will and in that exercise of free will there is experimentation and rectification both of which are served by this world ok any other questions? stop yeah one second there are many subjects on which science and spirituality are at loggerheads with each other on these subjects can we try to reconcile like which ones? the whole aspect of cosmology several aspects of cosmology are at loggerheads with each other they are diving into the ocean within cosmology itself we are talking about the solar system the belief of what stars are belief of life on within the solar system ok I understand what you are coming here probably coming from so if there are areas where science and spirituality are at loggerheads can we try to reconcile them? see first of all I have a whole series of three seminars on reconciling science and spirituality or understanding them I will talk about some broad principles here first is we have to begin with purpose what is the purpose of scripture and what is the purpose of science when Shukdev Goswami is speaking the Bhagavatam to Parishit Maharaj he is a person about to die he is a person who has renounced the whole world at that time he is not interested in cosmology he is not interested in geography it is very clear if he had been interested in cosmology and geography why would he renounce the kingdom and come and sit on the banks of the Ganga he is interested only in God he is interested in fixing his mind only on God so the purpose of the Bhagavatam is to help the seeker fix the mind on God the Bhagavatam is not primarily a book on cosmology so every book presents things with a particular purpose in mind and if we miss that purpose then we will get diverted in a hundred other directions let me complete my point now the Bhagavatam gives some description of the cosmology in the 5th canto the Bhagavatam gives some description of universal origins in the 3rd canto and other places 6th canto for example but all this is presented in theistic context theistic context means it is all presented for the purpose of fixing the mind on Krishna if you look at basically I was once a part of the cosmology team that was helping in coming up with some plan I am a model for Nayatariyam which we are trying to build in Nayapur so I have studied these sections a bit so if you see the 15 chapters 15-25 chapters of the 5th canto they describe cosmology but if you go into those chapters the number of verses that describe cosmological dimensions they are very few 1 4th of even those chapters even 1 5th you could see most of the time is ok on this planet this particular devata this particular form of the lord is being worshipped and these people worship this form of the lord by chanting these prayers on this particular planet this devata is being worshipped and this is how they are worshipping and if you look at the start of the 15th chapter the end of the 25th chapter and throughout the whole point is by understanding this universal this cosmology we will be able to fix the mind on the lord so the purpose of the Bhagavatam is not to give an exhaustive description of cosmology the purpose of the Bhagavatam’s cosmology is to demonstrate to Parashurteva Swami how dharma and devotion pervade the whole universe and therefore O Parikshit, you also become devoted to the lord that is why that is what illustrious means throughout the world are doing that is what you should do so it is something like we have Prabhupada’s nilamruta imagine 1000 years down the line say somehow some nuclear weapon destroys all the books on the earth and then somehow one copy of nilamruta is left and then in the nilamruta Prabhupada travelled across America now if after reading the nilamruta somebody decides based on the nilamruta to construct a map of America Prabhupada did go across America and I said you know he was in Chicago and from there he flew across and he came to Los Angeles ok that means Chicago and Los Angeles they are not so close that you will drive you have to go by flight so we can get some understanding but the nilamruta is not a geographical book we can get some better understanding but we are not going to get a comprehensive understanding that is not its purpose similarly the bhagavatam is not giving exhaustive cosmology its purpose is to help us fix the mind of Krishna and even within the tradition for empirical purposes so there is the transcendental purpose of fixing the mind of Krishna and there is the empirical purpose of functioning within the world so for empirical purposes also for astrology some amount of astronomy or cosmology is required astrology was a big part of our tradition in the past but even the same acharyas who have commented in the Srimad Bhagavatam if they are to do some astrological predictions or analyse some horoscopes for that they don’t use the bhagavatam’s cosmology they use the cosmology that is called as the Jyotishya cosmology Surya Siddhanta and other books are there which describe cosmology in a very different way and it is that cosmology that they use so in the tradition itself there is the transcendental cosmology of the bhagavatam and there is the empirical cosmology of the Jyotishas and the traditional teachers themselves have not put these two in competition for the purpose of meditating on the lord we use the transcendental cosmology for the purpose of operating in this world we use the empirical cosmology so yeah I have listened to your lectures I completely understand your point the purpose of physical text is spirituality but then why is it so much importance and effort put in to reject Darwinian evolution why are we even bothering about it science being itself okay so why are we putting in so much effort to reject Darwinian evolution it depends on what exactly is being attempted the point is not to combat any particular theory the point is to combat atheism now when we look at the way historically evolution has been used evolution has been used by many atheists to justify their atheism or to give a scientific scientific scientific justification for the atheism in fact you could say evolution has become the bulwark of the the foundation of the atheistic world in today’s world so if you look at his critique carefully his focus is on rejecting atheism his well known conversation is called life comes from life his point is that consciousness cannot evolve from matter consciousness is a fundamentally different entity and whatever be the merits or demerits of Darwinian evolution there are basically three broad theories which are used currently to explain universal origins there is the big bang theory and its variants by which they say the universe came about and then there is some kind of chemical evolution by which the universe, by which consciousness emerged from matter and then there is biological evolution you could say cosmological origin of the universe, origin of life and origin of various species so then Prabhupada is critiquing evolution he is using evolution as a reference point for critiquing the atheistic account of the universe the idea that without God we can explain everything that is his point which he is criticising so and if you look specifically at life comes from life the idea is that chemical evolution how life originates from matter or consciousness emerges from matter that is his thrust consciousness cannot emerge from matter and even today if you look at whatever be the merits of biological evolution theory but chemical evolution or origin of consciousness from chemicals it is stunningly ill-founded there is just no explanation of how it happens and beyond that I have written a book on demystifying reincarnation there I quote about how on the 125th anniversary of the science magazine they published a special issue they talked about 125 questions that science can’t answer that science doesn’t know the answers to that was a few decades ago but even now science doesn’t have answers about a decade and a half ago even now science doesn’t have answers to those questions and the first among those questions was where does the universe come from second is where does consciousness come from of course they phrase the question as implicit what is the biological basis of consciousness they are assuming that consciousness is a biological basis but that itself is questionable so these are questions which even science doesn’t have answers to so have you heard my answers about inductive, deductive and abductive reasoning also ok basically sometimes we think of this probably might be a little technical for you but I’ll try to make it as simple as I can see we think of all science as equally credible sometimes scientists are telling this theory that means it must be scientific but is all science is not equally credible the most credible science you could say is mathematics which is deductive deductive means it is based on principles that have to be true so 3 into 3 will be 9 4 plus 5 will be 9 so this is deductive logic this is universally true it’s basically like axioms another form of reasoning in science is called inductive reasoning inductive reasoning means we do many many many experiments and then when those repeated experiments give a certain pattern of conclusions then we infer this pattern and we say that this pattern is what will apply in future also so for example Newton saw the fruit falling objects fall down so then he postulated the law of gravity and then he saw different objects in different parts of the world fall down and we can also observe this we can also experiment with this so most of the dazzling technological successes that we see in the world around us they are based on scientific findings that have come from inductive reasoning inductive reasoning is where science can observe repeatedly can discern a pattern through the observations and then can further do experiments to see if those patterns are confirmed ok, you could put it that way I’ll just let me complete this but it’s not always physics only but when we go to the third form of reasoning which is called as abductive reasoning and now this abductive doesn’t have anything to do with abduction abduction is kidnapping but what it means is that when science wants to arrive at some understanding of some events that have happened in the past which we cannot replicate now so for example how life came about, how universe came about, how various species came about we can’t replicate that there are no repeated observations that we can do, there are no experiments that we can do what to speak of repeated observations there is not even one observation it’s all how does science arrive at any understanding in these historical sciences it is through a third form of reasoning which is called abductive reasoning or another way to understand it inference to best explanation some of you may have read say investigation novels or seen some investigation movies you know, who done it kind of mysteries now there was this room in which this owner was staying and he was still alive at 6 o’clock in the evening but at night 10 o’clock when his wife went to meet him there was a knife in his belly he was dead now when you want to find out the investigators can’t say oh criminal you come and commit the murder act once again I will catch you and catch you you can’t do that so then what do they do there is a camera at the door between 6 o’clock to 10 o’clock who all went inside see there was this 5 year old grandson who went inside and there is 75 year old mother who went inside now she is also so weak that she cannot put the knife that much forward and then oh there is this 22 year old butler who had gone inside he must have killed and then what we do in this case is that we this is called IBE inference to best explanation we look at various possibilities and we try to arrive at the explanation which we arrive at the inference of which is the most reasonable most probable explanation this is basically guess work now among these three options butler is the most reasonable but somebody may not know that there is a closet in the room and in that closet below there is a trap door and through that trap door a criminal had come in murder and murder so when we are arriving at inference to best explanation it is at best guess work and it depends on all whether we know the original situation and how well we can replicate that situation so especially with respect to sciences, with respect to origins hmm it is very very difficult for science to do any kind of experiment that’s why with respect to sciences of origins it’s very scientific theories also are very speculative that’s why we will keep reading sometimes the news a new fossil has been found and the age of the earth the age of when human beings originated where they originated it keeps radically changing john wheeler is a prominent physicist so he is teaching physics in university and he quotes this in one of his books he says that once a student asked him in class sir there are so many cosmological theories how to keep track of all of them so he said that if you miss a bus, a girl or a cosmological theory don’t run after it another one is soon coming so cosmological theories are very speculative now this is not to criticise science because most of the science that we use today that does not come from deductive research the science that you find so credible I find it this time over here that means this was that time in India and that is the time in India there are many forms of many aspects of science which are very credible but all these aspects of science which are credible, they have come either from deductive reasoning or from inductive reasoning but unfortunately not understanding this difference between which forms of reasoning are used by which forms of science we assume that all scientific theories are of equal credibility and therefore we think that there is a conflict between science and scripture even within the scientific community you will find the number of critics of evolution or big bang theory or whichever theory of cosmological origins that you may have there are far more critics of that than there are critics of say the law of gravity or there are critics of Einstein’s relative physics or whatever why? because that which is understood through inductive reasoning that is much more credible but that which is arrived at through inductive reasoning its credibility is much much lesser so it’s not that there is necessarily a conflict between science and scripture the conflict is between a materialistic vision of life and a spiritual vision of life and we have to see which vision of life explains a life as we live it the materialistic vision of life it is very inadequate it doesn’t explain our emotions it doesn’t explain our the things that are deepest to us today with science and technology so much advanced people when people want to form relationships now say a boy and a girl man and a woman, they want to form a relationship there is so much insecurity does this person really care for me? does this person really love me? will this person lead me through a tricky thing? now if our scientific knowledge has advanced so much why can’t science we have a thermometer, we have a barometer why can’t science make a lavometer before proposing both partners will hit the lavometer on each other’s heart and check the leak we can’t do that because you can use a lie detector sorry? you can have a lie detector but the lie detector can only detect certain patterns of brain function but lie detectors themselves, they cannot be used as irrefutable evidence in the court because there are many cases where people who are professional liars have a sense of conscience so it’s like our brain is wired in a particular way and normally those who have a sense of conscience when they lie they feel uncomfortable but somebody who just keeps lying regularly they don’t feel uncomfortable and then lie detectors can detect a lie when the person at least feels a little bad when I am lying but if the person doesn’t feel bad at all then those chemicals see the lie detectors no no machine can evaluate the true truth value of a statement what the machine can evaluate is the brain state when we are making a particular statement and the brain state is determined not just by the statement that we are making the brain state is determined by also our attitude towards the sentence so it’s when we feel uncomfortable while making that statement that discomfort is what is caught by the mind by the brain states but if you don’t feel that discomfort say you and I if we are vegetarians and if we see an animal being slaughtered then we feel revolted by that and certain brain states will be generated in us but if a person is a professional slaughterer when they kill an animal they don’t feel any sense of revolt so those same brain states will not be generated so the point I am making is that there are certain brain states which are generated associated with certain physical states or physical actions but it’s not just a linear correlation between physical actions and brain states it’s physical actions emotional states and brain states so if those emotional states themselves are rewired then the brain states also get disordered that’s why there are psychopaths and sociopaths and psychopaths they kill heartlessly and internally the normal sense of revulsion the sense of hesitation that we feel when we are about to hurt someone they don’t feel that so the brain gets rewired that’s why we cannot at a mechanical means we cannot really find that out so the point I am making is that there is the material vision of life which can help in the functioning of the world at some level functioning of the world at some level but for things that matter the most the material vision of life is inadequate so therefore we turn towards this material vision of life because that explains to us ourselves and life and its purpose in a more holistic way does that answer your question? thank you does it mean that when humans were not born so there was no sexuality? when humans were not born at that time was there no spirituality? well whether there was a state when humans were not born at all that itself is debated because how do we know exactly whether humans were there or not on the planet we know from faucets so now whenever we try to look for fossils of ancient beings and based on that we try to infer who was existing at that time that itself is abductive it is not inductive there are at least 3 main problems with it first problem is that the fossils they are found on the surface of the earth and traditionally human beings have lived near the coastal areas or near the river areas because that’s where we need water to live and the water bodies are known to be enormously unpredictable so generally the surface near the water lot of sedimentation happens so the top soil is swept away then the fossils if for years and years they say that then they go deep inside but otherwise the fossils are primarily found on the surface of the earth they found on the surface of the earth and if humans were living near the river water bodies then their fossils could be swept and we most of the archaeologists say that if we could go down to the bottom of the oceans and explore over there we might come to know a completely different picture of history of ancient history so archaeology itself is based on a very very fragmented picture of the earth because humans certain human remains could very well be at the bottom of the ocean and whether they will stay there or they will just get dissolved by the water that’s also a question second thing is that if we consider the Vedic civilisation in the Vedic civilisation the tradition was to cremate the bodies not bury the bodies and from the traditional understanding the Vedic civilisation was quite widespread in the past and there is reasonable historical evidence to indicate that at least the Indus valley civilisation was quite advanced so if that civilisation had been there and it’s well known that for thousands of years people were burying the bodies so if bodies were buried then there is no chance of fossils so if we were only looking for archaeological records in terms of fossils then we would not find any fossils in the Indian subcontinent anywhere and then you might come to the conclusion that the Indian subcontinent was uninhabited and they had a huge amount of population actually so that’s why the fossil record is very selective and thirdly in general the problem happens that say archaeological sciences they are considered to be like luxury sciences luxury sciences means that places in the world where people are struggling people are struggling for bread and butter for basic livelihood they don’t have the time they don’t have the resources of the time to do archaeological studies so in general in the third world countries we really don’t we haven’t done exhaustive fossil research the point I’m making is that yes we have found fossils of animals long long in the past and as of now we say that by the fossil record at that time we have not found any human remains although we have a devotee scientist Dr. Michael Cremo he has written a book called Forbidden History of the Human Race so the Forbidden Archaeology and an abbreviated version of the book called The Hidden History of the Human Race in that he talks about remote human antiquity and he’s got quite persuasive evidence for that but even if for argument’s sake we say that that the human fossils have not been found all that that will mean is that the fossils have not remained does that necessarily mean that human beings are not there not necessarily it could be that there were species like dinosaurs that were living on one part of the planet and humans were living on some other part of the planet so they could have been existing coexisting when we say we have Jurassic Park or whatever by that we get a particular idea of the kind of dinosaurs that were there and whether dinosaurs were actually ruling the whole planet now we have not combed every corner of the planet and found it permeated with dinosaur dinosaur remains so it’s a huge amount of inference and if we say assume still that say there was a time when only animals were there not humans they were there that doesn’t mean spirituality was not there it was just that because spirituality means the soul and the soul is there even in animal bodies so basically the physical body is like a dress for the soul say if you go to some country when it is very warm and in summer you try to go and buy some warm clothes some sweater none of the shops were stocking it at that time now when you say I want warm clothes not a single shop has the warm clothes now that doesn’t mean warm clothes are non-existent it’s just that at that place in that particular environment warm clothes are not required and that’s why they are not being supplied over there so if we consider nature to be like a global crop manufacturing company and the human and the various bodies to be like clothes that we manufacture so it could be that at certain times in the history of the universe the atmospheric conditions were such that at that particular time a particular cloth or particular bodily form was not compatible so it could be possible at certain epochs that’s how we explain some species have become extinct that that means at particular phases in the universe’s history that particular clothes are no longer suitable for the atmosphere that is present in the universe at that time so that could be possible so that means that the soul in the human body is not there but that doesn’t mean spirituality itself is not there it just means that the soul in the human body is not there because the same soul, similar soul are there in other bodies and at appropriate time they will get an appropriate bodies and evolve further in that spiritual journey thank you very much