How philosophy and experience harmonize in bhakti

[Bhagavatam class at ISKCON, Lost Angles, USA]

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
You were talking about a dress, sir. So, the question is, Shreemad-Bhaktivedanta Swami Itinamane Namaste Saraswati Devi Gauravani Pracharane Nirvishesha Shunyavadi Pashyatya Desha Tharane Vancha Kalpataru Bhyascha Krupa Sindhupya Evacha Patitanaam Pavanebhyo Vaishnavibhyo Namo Namaha Jai Shri Krishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nithyananda Shri Advaita Gadadhara Shri Vasanthi Gauravata Vrinda Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Hare Krishna So, today morning, in the Shreemad Bhagwat, we are discussing about the conclusion of Narada Muni’s autobiographical narrative about how he became elevated to spiritual consciousness. So, I will speak today on the topic of how philosophy and experience harmonise in bhakti.
Narada Muni first initially told the philosophy, how the process of bhakti elevates and liberates. And then, as an illustration, he told his own story. And then thereafter, again, he will recapitulate, summarise the philosophy, so that the experience is seen once again in the light of the philosophy.
Here, the word is Janma Karma Rahasyam Vee, that the appearance and activities are mysterious. So, this is the way of the world, that people who choose a spiritual path, who choose to seek something beyond this world, their life appears to be mysterious to the common people. Krishna also talks about this in the Bhagavad Gita, in Yadisha Sarva Bhootaana, Yasyam Jagati Bhootaani, Sanshra Parshya Dhoomne Hain.
That which is night for all living beings is day for the self-realised. And that which is day for the self-realised is night for all living beings. What that means is night and day are spheres of illumination, clarity, activity.
So, spiritual life is where spiritually minded people are active. But materialistic people just can’t understand, what are you doing? And similarly, materialistic people spend so much time in mundane activities. Spiritually minded people, what are you doing? Why are you wasting your life like this, in such trivial things? So, this mystery is like a wall, which prevents materialistic people from understanding spiritualness.
And if there is a wall, how do we go across it? Say, if there is a mountain between two areas, the way to go across it, we need some tunnel. Or we have to climb up all the way and go across. So, there has to be some pathway to cross over or at least to make sense of what the spiritual business is all about.
And in general, how do we make sense of things? Broadly, we use our rationality and we use our emotionality. Whenever we want to buy some product, what do we do? We evaluate it. How much is the cost? What are the features? So, we use our rationality to evaluate whether it is a good deal.
But it is not just rationality. We also use our emotionality. How does it feel? Does it look good? Will it make me feel good? So, we use both of these things.
The rational part and the emotional part. Krishna talks about this in the Bhagavad Gita when repeatedly he says, When you offer your mind and intelligence to me, then living in this way, you will attain me. That means, the mind, we can say broadly correlates with the emotional part of me.
The intelligence correlates with the rational part of me. So, Krishna is saying, we are meant to use both our emotionality and our rationality in His service, in exploring life’s spiritual aspect. Now, the age we live in is known as the post-modern times.
In the pre-modern times, people had faith in scripture. Whether it was the Bible in the West or the Quran in the Middle East or Vedas in India, people got their authoritative source of knowledge from scripture. When science, when the modern age came, science replaced scripture as the authoritative source of knowledge.
And many people thought that this would lead to religion being replaced by atheism. However, that did not happen. Although science spread very rapidly and now, our whole society is transformed by the effects of science in the form of technology.
But still, there is a significant amount of scepticism and reservation about science as the ultimate arbiter of knowledge. So, various reasons, the weapons of mass destruction being developed, created. The awareness that science is not always the source of good.
So, various reasons for that. But the point is, in the post-modern times, people have neither faith in scripture nor in science. Then what is the faith in? We all need some faith in something.
So, that faith is largely an experience. Whatever feels good to me, if it feels good, that’s what I do. In fact, if we look at the history of advertising, in the past, say, 70, 80, 100 years ago, the advertisements focused primarily on how good the product is.
But now, it is, when the advertisements are there, they don’t just focus on how good the product is, but how good the product will make you feel. How good the product will make you feel. So, the idea is that for something to be appealing, the emotional side is very important.
So, if we consider the presentation of bhakti as a spiritual path, there are these two aspects to it. We can say there is philosophy and there is experience. In the 9th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, in the second verse, Krishna says that, that he gives this knowledge, which is, राजलित्याराज़िगुयं पवित्रमृतमृत्तमं प्रत्यक्षावदमं धर्म्यं सुसुकं कर्तुम अव्ययं This is the king of all knowledge.
And this can be practically realised by experience. प्रत्यक्षावदमं So, the process of bhakti has a philosophical aspect to it, which means meant to appeal to our rational side. And then there is an experiential aspect to it, which appeals to our emotional side.
So, experience means that which feels good, as we say. Now, bhakti also helps us to feel good. The problem, however, is when we are driven only by our feelings, which are divorced from our philosophical thinking, then our feelings can mislead us.
That’s why nowadays, spirituality is broadly equated with anything that makes me feel good. So, anything, if I go to a place close to nature, I feel this is such a spiritual place. Some people may even say that I saw an advertisement of a bar and they have soothing music playing there, and they say this is a spiritual bar.
Now, an activity where people get intoxicated is when people are going deeper and deeper into illusion, which is actually the opposite of going to spiritual consciousness. But the idea is that anything that makes us feel good, that is what people consider to be spiritual. But many things, they make us feel good temporarily.
But after that, they make us feel really bad. So, when Srila Prabhupada came to America, at that time, people had the idea that by taking drugs, we will become spiritual. And if you take drugs, it would make them feel good for some time.
It makes them go high. But then after that, they come crashing down. So, Srila Prabhupada said bhakti is a spirituality which will help you stay high forever.
It will take us high up and it will keep us there. So, this means that in bhakti, we have the process of philosophy which tells us that there is a higher reality beyond this world. And there is a profound philosophical analysis explained how this higher reality is actually for me, that it exists.
It’s not just a conception. In fact, even if we look at science, science is a body of knowledge which rests on certain assumptions that cannot be explained by science itself. So, for example, if we consider the incident which is said to have started modern science, that is, say, Newton observing the fruit falling.
When last year I had gone to Cambridge University to give a talk on science and spirituality, we passed by that same tree. Which is the place where Newton said to have seen the fruit fall. So, that is like a pilgrimage place for scientists.
So, people go there and they try to get inspiration. Now, yes, it was Newton’s brilliance that when he saw that fruit falling, he came up with the theory of gravity based on that. But his question, what made this fruit fall? That question itself has a presumption to it.
The presumption is that things don’t happen by itself. That things don’t just happen automatically, chaotically, unpredictably. There is some cause-effect system in nature.
There is some order in nature. And that order is what we are trying to uncover. So, when he proposed, he came up with the theory of gravity, it is his brilliance in coming up with that theory.
But the very fact that he considered that there may be some pattern in nature why should there be a pattern in nature at all? That is because the pattern in nature has to come for some source which science assumes is there. Science is there to create the laws of nature. Albert Einstein said that the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible.
The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible. What that means is that, say, science primarily uses mathematics. So, Newton postulated f is equal to g n 1 n 2 upon r square, log n. Now, division, square root, imaginary numbers, all these things which are in advanced mathematics, which are used to study nature, they are concepts which are thought by the human mind.
There is no such thing like an imaginary number existing in nature. But it is a concept which we have thought. Now, why is it that the concepts we have thought with our intelligence, they should correlate with the way nature functions out there? I find myself, suddenly, I go to sleep and I wake up in some strange place, lying somewhere.
I look around and I see a sheet of paper over there. And I look at the sheet of paper and I find something is written in some script over there. And as I look at the script, I find I understand the script.
And not only do I understand the script, but I can also understand the message that is written over there. And that message is there to guide me to safety. From where I am lost, it guides me to safety.
So, now, if such a thing happens to us, then there are three remarkable correlations over here. First is that there is a message written out there in a language that I can understand. Second, there is, first of all, there is a paper with a message written out there.
Second is, it is a language I can understand. And third is that, that is not just written in a language I understand, but it is a message that is relevant to me. That message that is meaningful to me and valuable to me.
So, similarly, if we consider that all of existence was a result of unguided natural processes, then why should at all there be an order in nature? Why should there be a mind which is capable of rational thinking? And why should the way the human mind thinks be correlating with the way the world functions out there? The same three things, there is a message, there is a person who can understand the message, and the message is meaningful to the person. So, these three correlations are something which are foundationally required for the world to make sense. And where do these correlations come from? There is an order in nature, our mind is capable of perceiving the rational order.
And the rational order in nature is something which our mind perceives. So, that is why the most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible. And it is most incomprehensible only as long as we do not consider that there is a higher intelligence.
So, the higher intelligence has arranged the natural order in nature. The higher intelligence has arranged our human intelligence in a particular way. And then that higher intelligence allows us to perceive the correlation.
And in this way, we can not only appreciate the order in nature which is revealed by science, but actually we can go somewhere deeper. Science explains nature, but the very explainability of nature requires an explanation. Science can explain nature, but the explainability of nature requires an explanation.
And that explanation points to a Supreme Being. So, this is the rational aspect of spirituality, this one aspect of it, which points to some higher reality, which is the organising principle beyond and underlying the reality that we perceive in this world. In the Bhagavad Gita, in the 7th chapter, Krishna talks about how he says there is no reality beyond me and underlying thread of truth, which forms the necklace of the world that we observe.
So, this same point that there is an underlying thread of truth. So, various scientific theories that we discover, various insights that we get in the working of nature, they are like the jewels on the necklace that we are finding. But those jewels on the necklace would not be existing unless there would be a thread that is unifying it.
So, through the philosophical aspect, we understand that there is some higher order in nature. Now, often it is said that when we explore something beyond the world, we require faith. However, it is not just to explore something beyond this world.
It is to actually live and function in the world that we need faith. Right now, we are sitting here, if the roof collapses, we could all die, but we have faith that the roof is not going to collapse. And that’s how we sit here.
So, for doing anything in life, we could explain faith in different ways. Faith means that at a basic level, the way it is used is that we presume something will work in that way, but we are not sure whether it will work in that way. When I go to a doctor and take medicines, now, I hope, I expect that the medicine will cure me, but there is no guarantee.
So, at that time, when I am taking a pill, I am basically taking a gulp of faith. So, I am putting faith. Now, when we talk about spiritual life, if we consider in science, there is philosophy and there is experiment.
So, philosophy, sorry, not philosophy, there is theory and experiment. The theory is what proposes, Newton proposed that, oh, there is a force of gravity. And the experiment is, okay, if there is something, not just an apple, a stone would fall, a metallic object would fall.
And not just in Cambridge, any part of the world would fall. So, if we repeat the experiment, then we can ourselves verify or disprove the theory. Similarly, bhakti of spirituality has two aspects to it.
There is a philosophy and there is a practise. The philosophy gives us rational understanding of why there is a higher world beyond this world. And the practise gives us opportunity to experience it for ourselves.
So, Narad Muni has given the philosophy. And then he has given his own experience of how this happened. So, when we go to a doctor, we just do not look at the doctor’s credentials.
Nowadays, with everything being there on Google, we may look for reviews of that doctor by others. Now, if somebody says, oh, I had this disease and I was cured. And on the internet, any anonymous, anybody can also put their reviews.
But if we know someone, and we trust someone, I know this person is an intelligent person. And they say, I went to this doctor and I was cured. Then what happens is, we become more willing to put faith in the doctor.
So, when somebody tells that this is what I did, and this is how it worked for me. Okay, let me try it out also. So, Narad Muni similarly is giving his experience over here.
So, earlier I said how, nowadays, anything that makes people feel good, they consider it as spiritual. But in that case, if I am sick, and I take a painkiller, the painkiller also will make me feel good. But for how long? I will feel good for some time.
And after that, my disease will surface, the pain will come back. Not only come back, it will come back stronger, more intense, because the disease is worsening internally. So, therefore, when we consider something about spiritual growth, it is not just about feeling good.
Feeling good is important. But it is being good. That means coming back to harmony with our nature.
When we do that, just as when health is restored, then naturally one will feel good. By taking painkillers also one may feel good. But when we actually become healthy, then we will feel good.
So, with respect to what people consider as spiritual, it’s differentiated in two concepts. There is pacification and there is purification. Pacification means the mind is agitated, restless, it feels peaceful.
And it’s good for the mind to become peaceful. So, if we are in a stress-filled urban environment, and then we go to some hill station, beautiful natural scenery is there. And then we look at the sky, look at the breeze, feel the breeze, we see the lake, we feel peaceful.
So, this is pacification of the mind. And pacification gives us immediate relief. The mind is agitated and I get relief.
Before I was introduced to Krishna Bhakti, I went to many spiritual teachers. So, one teacher I had gone to, he told us, if you want to experience peace, you should learn the art of projection. He said, what is the art of projection? He said, I’ll lead all of you in a thought experiment.
Close your eyes. Imagine that you are sitting at the foot of a mountain. You can see the mountain, feel the mountain breeze coming on your ears.
You can hear the birds chirping around you. The mountain, lofty and reaching the sky is right in front of your eyes. You’re drinking it with your eyes.
There’s a water body flowing below it. You hear the sound of the water. You’re feeling peaceful.
You’re feeling peaceful. At that moment, outside that workshop centre, there was a car crash. And there, all of us got agitated.
So, at one level, projecting our consciousness to some peaceful scene, that will make us feel peaceful. However, we have to understand, what is it that actually makes us agitated? It is not just being in stressful or agitating circumstances. It is the disharmonious desires within us.
These disharmonious desires, in the Vedic tradition, are classified into six. Lust, anger, greed, envy, pride and envy. When these desires are there, we will feel agitated.
Even if we go to a peaceful situation, still, we will not stay peaceful for very long. Because, I may go to a peaceful setting, but if I’m angry with someone, think of that person, and everyone is peaceful, but I’m burning with it, seething with fury at that person. So, the way to peace, the way to feeling good on a steady way, is not just pacification.
It is purification. When we become purified, then the lust, anger, greed, envy, arrogance, all these decrease within us. And when they decrease, that is when we can experience enduring peace.
Shanta Rajasam Brahma Guptam Kalmasham. Krishna says in 6.27 in the Bhagavad Gita, that when we steadily practise bhakti, then the mind becomes peaceful. Why? Prashanta Manasam.
Because Shanta Rajasam, the Rajopana, the mode of passion within us, the force of nature which triggers materialistic desires within us, that becomes pacified. When that becomes pacified, that subsides, that becomes removed, purged from our consciousness, that is when we can have enduring peace. So, in the process of bhakti, the primary focus is on purification.
There is pacification and purification both. So, Narad Muni is telling over here how he became purified, how he became freed from his worldly attachments. And when we talk about this process of pacification and purification, as I said, in today’s conception of spirituality, it is anything that makes me feel good, which means feel peaceful, feel nice about myself.
That is spiritual. However, much of what goes on in the name of spirituality, there can be new age spirituality, there can be feel good religion, all this is basically like a painkiller. There can be painkillers for the body and there can be painkillers for the mind.
So, painkiller for the mind means my mind is agitated, I feel peaceful, I do something, I feel peaceful. I do some breathing exercises, I project my consciousness from some natural setting and all this can make me feel peaceful. And if we are agitated, doing this to feel peaceful, there is nothing wrong with it.
But to think that this itself is spiritual, that by this I have become spiritual, that is a mistake. Spiritual is a level of reality and there has to be a process by which we can get to that level. So, if you consider there is a two story building, I will conclude with the incident.
Last year when I had come to America, I had been in Florida when the hurricane Irma hit there. So, I went to New York that day after giving some classes, but one of my friends was caught over there. And as he was there, somehow he did not get the notification the hurricane is coming.
He was at a retreat centre, he is living in his own world. And then when he got the news, it was too late. He was in a room and he saw the water level rising, rising, rising.
And he tried to phone someone, the phones were dead. He tried to surf on the net and contact someone, the net was not there. He was just in this house, water level was rising, rising.
He was just worried what to do. And then he is looking around frantically, becoming panicky. He suddenly noticed there is a closet.
And he saw something like a door on the end of the closet. He pulled the closet, saw there was a door. He opened the door and there is an attic, there is a stairway to an attic.
There is a small structure, but it was at a higher level. He went to that attic and stayed there. And he saw from the attic window the water level was rising, rising, rising.
But it covered the first level. But it stayed there, that level. And gradually the water went down and then he was rescued eventually.
So similarly, we could say that our existence is like a two-level building. There is a ground level, which is the material level of reality. And there is a higher level, the first level, which you say is the spiritual level of reality.
Most of the times when we live, we don’t think about the spiritual level of reality at all. We just live at the material level. And it is when some trouble comes, some danger comes, some threat comes.
At that time, we start exploring what to do. We try to find some solution at that level itself. But when no solution seems to be forthcoming at that level, then we start exploring.
And if we are fortunate enough, we find a door. If we have met someone spiritual, if we have had some contact with some spiritual people, we have some vague understanding. There might be something there.
And then we explore. Then the staircase which takes us up, it is the path of bhakti yoga. So, spiritual is not just a feeling.
Being spiritual is not just a state of mind. It is a state of being. It is a state of mind also.
Because when we are spiritual, our mind does become peaceful. But it is not just a state of mind. It is a state of being.
Just like there is a ground level and there is a first level. So, I may sometimes feel peaceful even when I am at the ground level. But that doesn’t mean I have become spiritual.
It is only when I rise to the first level, that is the spiritual level of reality, that is when we actually become spiritual. So, much of what we consider as spiritual, there are two extreme approaches. One is that anything that makes me feel good, that is spiritual.
So, I may be at the ground level and it is just a state of the mind. I think I am peaceful. But actually, I am still vulnerable to all the forces that will make me agitated.
So, that is not spirituality. Much of what goes on in the name of spirituality is pseudo-spirituality. The other extreme could be, say, imagine from this ground level to the first level, to go there are multiple stairs.
There are multiple stairs. But somebody says that this is the stair I am taking and this is the only way. Anybody who says there is any other way, that person is false.
We have to look at the result. If somebody is actually becoming spiritual, becoming spiritual means they are becoming peaceful, joyful, they are becoming less materialistic, they are learning to love the ultimate reality of God, by whichever name we call our tradition, in one’s tradition. If that is happening, then actually one is becoming spiritual.
So, yes, in the different traditions, there are different stairways given to go up. So, there was one devotee who came from a background in the Abrahamic ages, many people came, but he was aggressively against deity worship. Because the whole idea is you should not worship idols.
That’s there quite prominently in the Abrahamic traditions. And that is because in the Abrahamic traditions, there is no positive, clear description of God. So, when he first came to a temple, he said, what is this? This is idolatry.
He just couldn’t digest it. But there, he thought this is all wrong, this is satanic worship, this is this, this is that. But then, as he stayed in the temple, he started associating with devotees, and he started observing, these devotees are really spiritual, they are serious about their spiritual path, they are giving up their worldly pleasures, and they are focussing on God.
So, he finally realised that this is something which I don’t understand. There is something else going on which is different from what I have experienced. It’s like, say, one doctor says, if a patient comes to a doctor, and the patient says, I have got this disease, and the doctor says, okay, take this medicine.
But the patient says, no, I went to this doctor, and the doctor said this, and I went to that doctor, and that doctor said that, and I went to that doctor, and that doctor said that. So, now the doctor will say, just forget what all other doctors have said, take the medicine I am giving, you will get cured. And when the doctor is saying, forget what all other doctors have said, that doesn’t necessarily mean that all other doctors are false.
It just means, if you are going to take a particular treatment, be focused on that treatment. If you want to take some other treatment, that may also work, but focus on that treatment again. If we are going to go to a doctor, we have to focus on the treatment the doctor is giving.
Similarly, whenever in any religious tradition there are exclusive statements, this is the only way. The purpose is not so much to condemn other paths, as it is to get people to focus on their own path. This is like a doctor telling his patient, just take this treatment, don’t bother about anything else.
So, if a patient is thinking, you know, this treatment is the only treatment, and the patient is taking treatment, and then you see somebody else who is taking some other treatment, but they got cured, and they got cured. Then, no, but this treatment is wrong. No, but you got cured.
It’s like somebody saying, one patient is taking another patient, your prescription is wrong. Second patient is saying, but I am cured. So, prescription wrong, patient cured.
There’s something wrong over there. So, that means, there can be a prescription that we are following, and we can follow it faithfully. But, for somebody else, some other prescription may also work.
So, important thing is, not just the prescription we are following, it is the state of health being restored. So, similarly, the process of becoming spiritual, of becoming devoted to the ultimate reality, that is the process of rising from the material level to the spiritual level. And, for this process, there can be different paths.
And, the important thing is, not that we accept any and every path, or that we reject every path. We look at objective parameters. So, Prabhupada, the founder, Acharya of ISKCON, and when some Christians came to meet him, and they asked him, what do you think about Jesus? And Prabhupada said, Jesus is our Guru.
He surprised Hindus, monks, saying that Jesus is our Guru. Prabhupada said, he had so much love for God, that he was ready to lay down his life for the service of God. A person who has so much love for God, that person is our Guru, because we are all aspiring to develop love for God.
So, if we have this objective criteria, how do we know somebody has come to that higher level? They have love for God. And, their love for God is seen in their devotion to God, and their eagerness to use everything of this world for the service of God, not to use the things of this world for one’s own enjoyment. And that is an objective parameter we can use.
And then, we can be broad-minded, while at the same time, not becoming uncritical. We can harmonise our rationality and our emotionality through bhakti spiritualities. It gives us the philosophical understanding of the higher level of reality, and also gives us a pathway to rise to that higher level of reality.
So, I’ll summarise. I spoke today about how philosophy and experience harmonise within bhakti. So, Narada Muni has told the philosophy of bhakti, then he has told the experience, his own narrating of how we became spiritual.
So, we discussed how nowadays, in today’s post-modern world, in pre-modern times, people had faith in scripture. In modern, people had faith in science. Now, it is all about experience.
So, even advertisements are not so much about how good the product is, they are much more about how the product will make you feel. And this emphasis on feeling good has come to the spiritual realm also, where anything that makes people feel good, they think it is spiritual. But, whatever makes me feel good, it may be like a pain killer.
When drugs can make me feel good, it may be harmful for me also. So, we differentiate between pacification and purification. Pacification of the mind can happen through some external stimuli, but that can be temporary.
It is like a pain killer for the mind. Purification means that the forces within the mind, like lust and anger, greed, which cause the mind to get agitated, they get curbed, they get purged from our consciousness. So, the philosophy aspect tells us that there is a higher reality to which if we ascend, then we will become spiritual and be free from materialistic drives.
So, the spiritual lives of spiritual people are often a mystery. And to penetrate this mystery, if the rationality and the emotionality, if both the philosophy and the experience are shared, then people can get a tunnel or a pathway across this mountain of incomprehensibility. So, how do we know that there is some higher reality? We discuss science explains the reality that we observe in this world to some extent.
But, the explainability of science requires an explanation. Science requires the presence of a natural order. Science requires the presence of a mind which can pursue that natural order.
And science requires that the natural order be intelligible to the human mind. So, the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensive, Einstein said. So, rationally, we can at least postulate that there may be some higher order to nature.
There may be some higher intelligence who has brought about the order in nature. And bhakti offers us a process by which we can raise our consciousness to that higher level. So, if I am in a one level building, ground level building, I rise to the higher level through a staircase.
And then whatever is threatening me at the ground level, like a flood, I get rid of it. So, when we, through the process of bhakti, raise ourselves to the spiritual level, then we will experience pacification, but also purification. So, being spiritual is not just a state of mind, it is a state of being.
And to rise to that state of being, there can be different stairways. When any religious tradition says that this is the only way, the point is to create focus among the followers, not to condemn other paths. Just like a doctor says, just do not bother about other doctors, take the treatment and leave.
And if we look at the objective criteria of how somebody is spiritual, somebody has developed love for God, that is there, then we can have a reasonable level of rational criticality, not accept anything and everything as spiritual. But at the same time, be open-minded, that to rise from this level to a higher level, there can be different paths. So, thank you very much.
Hare Krishna. Do we have time? We have one or two, or what we do sometimes is that after the class, the students can sneak in and go and ask questions, and ask questions to you. Yes, so I think we will finish the class, then you have to be back post then.
Thank you very much. Pranth Raj Srimad Bhagavatam ki, Shrila Prabhupada ki, Gaur Bhakta Vindhya ki. Gaur.
Gaur came on.