How the infinite manifests in the finite – Various religious conceptions
[Bhagavatam class on 4.19.37 at ISKCON, San Diego, USA]
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Transcript
Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.
Hare Krishna So today morning in Bhagavatam we are discussing about the position of King Pruthu. And I will talk today about how the transcendental manifests through the material. Basically we will talk about the bonds and the boundaries between the finite and the infinite.
We are all finite souls. God is infinite. So what are the bonds between them? What are the boundaries between them? So here is a very interesting word used to describe Pruthu.
It's Vainya. Vainya, Vena was his father. And he was a demonic person.
And Pruthu is referred to as his son Vainya. And normally it's a common tradition, common convention in the dharmic traditions to refer to people by their father's name. Can you give some examples of this? Pandava is Pandava.
Pandava is Pandava, yes. Ram is called Dashrathaya. Like that we have so many places where even Krishna is called as Vasudeva.
Or Nanda Nandana. Nanda Nandana is still there. But the names vary slightly.
Now in some cases this is wonderful because the parents are also wonderful. Now in this case his father is a demon. Now to be associated with somebody demoniac is not something very pleasant.
It will be associated by birth. So here we see this extraordinary thing. And this is being spoken as a matter of praise.
Normally if you tell someone, you are the son of underworld don. Maybe if we are among criminals that might be a praise. But for ordinary citizens you would say, law abiding citizens, why are you mentioning that? Are you trying to be spiteful towards me? Trying to mock me? So normally we all are defined not just by who we are but by whose we are.
We are defined not just by our identity but also by our connections. And that's how people perceive us. People may look at us.
Somebody looks at me and says okay you are an Indian. Somebody looks at somebody else and says brown skin means Indian. Black skin means maybe African.
Or particular accent means from Japan or from China. Or from the Arabic countries, wherever. So reality is so complex that for us to process reality we need to categorize it.
At a basic level we meet someone. It is a small baby, a small child. We will talk with them in a different way.
Maybe a PhD professor will talk in a different way. So we need to categorize to function. And one way we categorize is because we can't unless we get to know the person at a personal level.
At an introductory level we have to categorize. Where is this person coming from? When we are trying to share Krishna Bhakti, the first thing we need to know is is this person already knowing some devotional terminology. Or there is no devotional terminology.
And accordingly we have to speak. So we constantly classify in this way. So this particular classification of Pruthu as Vainya, as the son of Vainya.
This is biological. It is being signified over here. Normally it is said that the children carry on the legacy of their parents.
Here Pruthu is being glorified for something else. That the Dharma Avaluptam, that the principles of Dharma had been destroyed by Vainya. But you have restored them.
You have appeared and you have restored them. So sometimes the legacy of the parents has to be carried on. And sometimes it has to be stopped.
And here the glorification is, sometimes we glorify someone in a way that you came from an illustrious background and you are also an illustrious person. But another way to glorify would be, somebody came from a very poor or deprived background and still they have become very glorious. People talk about, I am a self-made man or I am a self-made woman.
That means, I didn't have anyone helping me. I didn't have any godfather, I didn't have any contacts. So that is also another way of glorifying.
So sometimes we are glorified for having come from illustrious antecedents. And sometimes we are glorified for having come from opposite kind of antecedents and still having risen over our circumstances, risen above our circumstances. So Vainya is not used to label and deride.
You are the son of Vaina. Although you are the son of Vaina, just see how different you are. Which other example is there in the Bhagavatam of the son and the father being utterly different in character? Prahlad and Hiranyakashipu.
And there are examples of son and father being similar in character also. We have Dhritarashtra and Duryodhana. Duryodhana is not just similar, Duryodhana is one step worse.
If we consider a movie with villains, Dhritarashtra is like the passive villain and Duryodhana is the active villain. So now here, if we consider, the topic I said is because of what initially, how the transcendental manifests through the biological. That each, say, we all acquire certain characteristics from our parents.
Sometimes it is said as a saying that the apple never falls far away from the tree. What that means is that if somebody is born from a particular parent, they will be like that. But is that always true? How much is it true and how much is it not true? What all, at a basic biological level, we get our genes from our parents.
And that's how we inherit certain characteristics. The Varanashram system, which is now degenerated into the caste system, that had this understanding that birth is not just an accident. That means from which family we are born, that is not just accidental.
What it means is that, say, if a Brahmana couple unite, they are already living a life of spiritual principles. And when they unite, there is a, you could say, a subtle gravity pull that attracts souls of similar disposition. And that's how, when a Brahmana couple unite, the soul that is born through them is likely to have Brahminical qualities.
This is not always true. But traditionally, it was when the Varanashram was there, it was expected that the children of Kshatriyas would be Kshatriyas. The children of Aishyas would be Vaishyas.
Why? Because if everybody was living in a Dharmic way, then they would have the kind of disposition expected of their socio-cultural classification or designation. And accordingly, they would attract souls of that way. So, in a sense, it is not just that we get the genes from our parents, it's also that it's quite likely that because we have a disposition similar to our parents, that's from our previous life, that's why we are born in that family.
However, this is not universal. There are multiple factors which determine the birth of who is born where. So, he described that Hiranyakashyapu, for example, had gone to meditate on Vishnu, gone to meditate on how to kill Vishnu, to get powers on how to kill Vishnu.
But at that time, he heard some birds. When he was meditating, he heard the birds chanting Vishnu, Vishnu, Vishnu. These birds were actually sages who were there as a part of the plan.
And then he said, what is this Vishnu? I don't want to remember him. I want to remember how to destroy him. So, he said, my austerity is not working.
Just like suppose we are trying to chant and there's too much disturbance. I'll chant later. So, he said, okay, I stopped my austerity.
And then he came back to his home. And that's the time when he united with his wife. And the thought of Vishnu, Vishnu, Vishnu.
Those sounds which the sages had spoken, they were going in his mind. So, although his habitual consciousness was demoniac, at that time, the thoughts of the Lord were going on in his mind. Incidentally.
And that's how he got a son as saintly as Prahlad. So, it's not entirely predictable. It's a reasonable inference that the soul born of particular parents will have particular qualities.
But it's not always essential. Because many factors come into the picture. Now, in this case, of course, with respect to Pruthu, he was not born by ordinary means.
Vena was killed by the utterance of disapproval by the sages. And after he was killed, his body was churned. And from the churning, Pruthu came up.
So, in a sense, Vena had nothing to do with the birth of Pruthu. It's just that his body happened to be the soul, happened to be, not even the source, the channel through which Pruthu came about. And yet, so, it was what to speak of whether Vena had appropriate consciousness when Pruthu was conceived.
Vena had no consciousness. He was already dead. But then why did the Lord, why did Pruthu have to choose to come to this particular body? Actually, the point here is that sometimes the Lord demonstrates how just as a lotus can blossom in the dirtiest of places, similarly, the divine can manifest in the unlikeliest of places.
Now, certain animals are considered conventional. In different cultures, it might be different. But certain animals are considered unclean.
So, a hog or a boar is not considered particularly clean. But what happens? The Lord manifests as Varahadev. And when he manifests in this way, he actually demonstrates that he is not affected at all by his setting, in which body he has appeared or even from which body he has appeared.
So, the Bhagavatam in many ways demonstrates the transcendence of the Lord. And of course, the transcendence of those who are devoted to the Lord also. So, the transcendental can manifest to the biological through any level.
Sometimes, like Lord Chaitanya was born to parents who were already Brahmanical and very devoted. Krishna was born to parents who were Kshatriyas. But here we see, Vena appeared through, he was not so much a Kshatriya as a Kshatramandhu, as a person who was a disgrace to the name of Kshatriyas.
Kshatriya is one who protects others from harm. But here, he was the one causing harm to others. So, he is a disgrace to Kshatriyas, but the Lord appeared through that.
And that is his transcendence. So, the Lord can manifest anywhere, in any place, even in the unlikeliest of places. Actually, Prabhupada, when he was sharing Krishna consciousness, often he would take whatever place was available and suitable for a temple.
And sometimes, those places might have been places where all kinds of unholy activities might have happened. Of course, when there was facility, Prabhupada built magnificent temples. But he understood that the Lord can manifest anywhere.
And if we have the facility, we build a temple at a place which is already auspicious. But if that is not possible, then even if we get up, the important thing is to get the Lord to manifest, to glorify the Lord. So, even if the place is auspicious, it doesn't matter.
The transcendental can manifest anywhere through the material. Transcendental does not depend on any particular material condition for manifestation. And that is highlighted through the point of Vainyam.
So, with respect to us, how much of what we are is determined by our lineage or parents. We all acquire certain things from our parents, but we always have free will. And some things which we learn from our parents, we take it and build on it.
And some things we learn and we realize this is not in my best interest. Then we keep a distance from it. So, we are products of our past, but we are not prisoners of our past.
We are products. We can't deny that. We are products of our past.
So, the family and the dynasty where we have come from, it matters. But that doesn't imprison us. We can be our own persons and we can grow to be who we are meant to be.
All the more so, if we connect with Krishna. So, we are not at all. Supreme Lord is of course not limited by where he comes from.
And we too are not limited if we connect with the Supreme especially. Then whatever past influences are there, they can be countered by the omnipotence of the Lord. So, that was the first point.
Now, interestingly about the avatar which is talked about over here. Prabhupada says that he is a Shaktyavesha avatar. So, the word avatar is a very interesting word.
Ava tariti iti avatar. That one who descends is called an avatar. That's the Sanskrit meaning.
So, basically there are two levels of reality. There is material reality and there is spiritual reality. And people often say, nowadays there is an idea of philosophical relativism.
They say, oh you have your philosophy, I have my philosophy. Everybody has their own philosophy. And the Bhagavad Gita also offers one such world view.
Actually what the Bhagavad Gita offers is not just another world view. It offers another world to view. What does it mean? Another world view means another way of looking at this world.
That could be there. But the most important thing the Bhagavad Gita offers is not just another way to view this world. But another world to view.
It reveals that there is a spiritual reality. And this is the process by which we can raise our consciousness upward till we perceive that spiritual reality. It happens gradually through purification.
So, if we understand this point that there is the spiritual and the material, then when the Lord who exists in the supreme spiritual reality descends to the material level, that is avatar. Avatar is that the Lord descends. It is not that he takes birth.
He is already existing in his self-same glory. And he descends to this world. Some religious traditions say that avatars are not possible.
Because they say that this world is finite and God is infinite. And the infinite can never manifest in the finite. Because the finite would be destroyed.
The finite cannot hold him. So, their idea is that, say, now imagine if a blue whale were to come into this hall. If the blue whale is bigger than this hall, it just can't come in.
If it came in, the whole hall would break apart. So, they have that kind of idea that the infinite cannot manifest in the finite. And they say that the idea that an infinite can manifest in the finite itself is sacrilege.
It is something which is a minimization of the infinite. However, this idea, while seeming to venerate the infinite, it actually denigrates the infinite. Because if the infinite is truly infinite, then the infinite can do anything.
And that means the infinite can manifest even in the finite. If God is omnipotent, if God can do anything, then you say he can't manifest in the finite. That means there is something which he can't do.
So, God is unlimited, but he is not stuck with his unlimitedness. Like some people are super tall. Now, sometimes being tall is an advantage.
You can see when everything is blocked. But sometimes if it is a low door through which you have to enter or the ceiling is low, then you have to stoop down continuously. Somebody is very tall, they are stuck with their height.
They are tall and they can't become short. So, God is not stuck with his unlimitedness. He is unlimited, but his unlimitedness is such that he can manifest in a limited seeming form and still stay unlimited.
He is not stuck with his unlimitedness. So, that's how the infinite can manifest in the arena of the finite. Why? Because that is the infinite's infinite potency.
God's unlimitedness is that, not that he is stuck with his unlimitedness, but his unlimitedness is such that he can manifest in a limited seeming form and still retain his unlimited potency. And that applies when the Lord descends to the material world. Now, Prabhupada is very emphatic in saying that when the Lord descends, he doesn't come in a material form.
His form is still transcendental. Prabhupada would quote 9th and 11th Bhagavad Gita. So, he says that there are three ways.
Here the word is jananaam. So, people in general. So, people in general, their state can be jananti, ajananti and avajananti.
Jananti means to know correctly. Ajananti means to not know at all. Avajananti means to know the opposite of the actual.
So, in a sense, there is a difference between ignorance and illusion. Although we may group the two words together. Ignorance means to not know.
Illusion means to know falsely. So, if it's dark, it's ignorant. I mean, I can't see anything.
That's ignorance. That's like ignorance. But if I see a mirage, that's not ignorance.
It's more than ignorance. In some ways, it's worse than ignorance because we don't know and we think we know. So, so what happens is there may be some people who are ignorant about God, but there are some people who are illusioned about God.
And when Krishna descends to this world, they mistake him to be an ordinary human being. And that is very dangerous, Krishna says. So, although he manifests in a limited form, he is not limited.
So, 9-11 says they are a mudha, they are foolish people. Because he retains, he retains his infinite potency even while manifesting in a finite form. Now, having said this, we talk about the boundary between the finite and the infinite is that that boundary is not such that the infinite cannot come to the finite.
The infinite can definitely come to the realm of the finite. And what makes the infinite come? That is the infinite's love for the finite. So, there is the infinite's love for the finite.
And how much is that love? It's infinite. The infinite's love for the finite is also infinite. There is some religious tradition which says there cannot be any such thing as avatar, as a descent.
Some other religious traditions say that there is only one incarnation. And they say that it's a singular one-time event in the history of the universe. And all of deliverance itself is deliverance of all of humanity centered around accepting that one-time descent of the divine.
So, now this idea is in some ways you might say it's better than the complete otherness of God. That God is completely inaccessible to us. As some traditions say.
But still to reduce God's descent to only one event or one occurrence, what it means is that we are basically limiting God's love. Even if somebody doesn't come to know about that avatar, that particular incarnation, that particular manifestation of the divine, then what is the hope for their deliverance? So, because the infinite's love for the finite is infinite, therefore, the Bhagavatam says that the Lord appears again and again and again, in every millennia. And how many manifestations of the Lord are there? It is said that how many descents, how many avatars? As many as there are waves in the ocean.
That means it's countless. Countless. As many waves in the ocean, that many avatars are there.
Because the love of the infinite with the finite is infinite. So, now having said this, so we are looking at, the topic is how does the infinite manifest in the finite? So, the first idea that infinite can never manifest in the finite is the conception of the Islamic tradition. The idea that the infinite descent to the finite is a one-time event.
That is the Christian idea. That Jesus, the divinity of Christ manifested in the humanity of Jesus. That's what the Nicene Creed says.
Now, beyond that, in Hinduism, there has been another idea. This idea that the infinite can manifest in, the infinite's love is infinite, and the idea that there are as many incarnations as there are views in the ocean. That has led to the idea that everyone is God.
I was at a college program and I saw a poster, there was a yoga student here wearing this t-shirt, that is the slogan. I was an atheist till I discovered I was God. Now, God doesn't need to discover that they are God.
God is infinite. If God had come and God needed to discover something, God didn't know it. There is some force which made God exert.
And there are some teachers who come to say, one particular teacher, he said, there are many teachers in the past who have come and said, I am God. He said, I have not come to give such a self-centered message. I have come to give a selfless message.
My message is not I am God. My message is you are God. And it appears such a titillating thing for people.
For the ego, it is such an ego trip to think I am God. But, we are so controlled. Prabhupada talked about one spiritual teacher who had this idea that, who was teaching this idea that we are all God.
And he said, that he was going to give a talk on the secret of immortality. And as he was going for that talk, he met with a car accident and died. So, he was going to talk about immortality, but he met with his own mortality.
So, we are finite. We are not God. So, there is, in our tradition, at one level, a very clear, I talked about how there is, conceivably the finite, the infinite can manifest in the finite.
But still there is a boundary between the finite and the infinite. There is the Anuatma and the Vighuatma. The Anuatma, Anu is small, finite.
There is a finite soul. And Vighuatma is the infinite soul. And Chaitanya Chaitanya Damodara describes the difference between the two as that, the Supreme Lord is Mayadheesh.
And we are Mayadheem. Mayadheesh means he is the Lord of Maya. He is the controller of Maya, controller of the illusory energy.
And we are controlled by the illusory energy. So, if we consider this differentiation, that there is a finite soul and there is an infinite soul. And the finite soul never becomes infinite.
Bamaivamsho Jeevaloke Jeevabhootaha Sanatana Krishna says. That we are all parts of Krishna. And that's how we will be eternally.
But we can be parts who are harmonized with him or we can be parts who are disconnected from him. If we are disconnected, we stay dissatisfied. If we become connected, we become contented.
So, we become satisfied. We become fulfilled. So, the whole process of Bhakti is of spiritual connection.
So, the finite can go to the world of the infinite. But that doesn't mean the finite becomes infinite. So, the divine descent is meant to inspire the human ascent.
From the spiritual level of reality, the divine descent to the material level. So that those of us who are at the material level can rise, can feel inspired to rise to the spiritual level. And how do we feel inspired? It is by gaining the knowledge.
Knowledge of the totality of reality and knowledge about the beauty of the spiritual reality. And that's what is told to us through Krishna Tattva and Krishna Leela. By which each one of us can rise.
So, those of us who are who become devoted to the Lord, we rise and attain Him eventually. At the same time, the boundary between the finite and the infinite remains. So, this boundary seems to become a little fuzzy with the category of Shaktya Avesh Avatar.
So, what is this Shaktya Avesh Avatar? Shakti means strength or power. Shakti is sometimes used specifically to refer to the Goddess. She is called as Shakti.
And then the God is called as Shaktimaan, the possessor of power. So, now Shaktya Avesh. Shaktya Avesh.
Avesh is manifestation, appearance. So, Shaktya Avesh Avatar is Avatar means the divine descends to the material. From the spiritual to the material.
So, Shaktya Avesh means it's not literally that God descends, but God's power descends. God's power descends and it manifests in a particular person. And such people, they are considered as Shaktya Avesh Avatars.
So, when somebody is extraordinarily empowered by the divine, that, those personalities are called as Shaktya Avesh Avatar. Now, Jeeva Goswami and our Acharya has written many books about this. So, Brihad Bhagwatamrit is a book which describes about the spiritual world.
And Laghu Bhagwatamrit is another book. Laghu Bhagwatamrit describes elaborately the various kinds of Avatars. What are the different ways in which this crossing over from the spiritual to the material level happens.
And there, this category of Shaktya Avesh Avatar is also described. Now, in our tradition, there are two schools of opinion. Is the list of Shaktya Avesh Avatar, is it exhaustive when Jeeva Goswami gives or is it indicative? Exhaustive means a list is given that these, these personalities are Shaktya Avesh Avatar.
Is that all that is Shaktya Avesh Avatar or can there be more Shaktya Avesh Avatars also? So, for example, Prabhupada says over here in this parakola, Pruthu is considered to be a Shaktya Avesh Avatar. So, he is, he got a special potency by the grace of the Lord by which he could establish Dharma. He could establish the rule of virtue in the world.
So, now, one of Srila Prabhupada's God brothers, he said that Srila Prabhupada was also a Shaktya Avesh Avatar. Now, what he did was unparalleled, extraordinary. The way he shared Krishna consciousness across the world, it has no parallels.
Not just in terms of sharing Krishna consciousness but in terms of God consciousness anyway. Srila Sanjuda was a prominent professor of religious studies and he wrote in a book about the Krishna consciousness movement that if some author writes a book, a fiction story about an old man in the age of 70 going alone in a ship, in a cargo ship and then starting a global movement. He says, most publishers would reject the plot as unrealistic.
Fiction also has to be believable. Isn't it? But he says, in the case of Srila Prabhupada's life story, the story is stranger than fiction. It's more amazing.
Where in the history of the world do we have one person just inspiring people who we did not know at all to take up a way of life that they did not know at all. He said, maybe we have some parallels in Jesus. Jesus just called upon people and he said, called a fisherman and he said, you are fishing.
Stop being a fisherman of fish and become a fisherman of men. Follow me. I trapped everyone in the net of God's grace and people left everything and came to him.
But still, there's a difference. Jesus was preaching to people of his own age, people of his own culture, people who knew him and could connect with him. But with the spiritual of Prabhupada, there was linguistic difference, cultural difference, generational difference, religious difference, educational difference.
It's very difficult to actually find out what was common between Prabhupada and his disciples. There are so many differences. The commonality of course was that Prabhupada had a sincere desire to share spirituality and they had among all their misled ways, they had a strong desire to know about spirituality and that was what the connection was.
So at a material level, there's practically no connection. Now Prabhupada had never broken any regularity principles in his life. For many of the people who came to Prabhupada, breaking the regularity principles was a regularity principle.
So at a material level, there was nothing common. So just as we said, the transcendental can manifest anywhere. The transcendental does not necessarily need a particular material setting to manifest.
So the way that Prabhupada got Krishna consciousness to manifest in the world, that is just as extraordinary as Pruthu manifesting through Veda. That in the unlikeliest of settings where people were utterly godless, the hippies were a very unusual phase in western history. From the perspective of India, the western world is often considered to be degraded.
But the hippies were considered degraded even from the western standards. And Prabhupada took them and elevated them. So, that is the extraordinary potency of Srila Prabhupada.
And for someone who was able to do like this, and not just for one or two or three people, but for thousands and thousands of people, it is undeniable that there was some extraordinary potency over there. And thus, it can be rightly said that Prabhupada is a Shaktyavisha avatar. He had some special shakti which Krishna had given him.
And if we consider Prabhupada as a Shaktyavisha avatar, then we understand also that the Shaktyavisha avatar list given by the Goswamis is not exhaustive. It is indicative. It is indicative.
Now, there can be some special beings who are Shaktyavisha avatars. But the wonderful thing about the Lord is that He can give His shakti to anyone and everyone. He can empower anyone and everyone and that is His mercy.
So, He can use the unlikeliest of souls for doing the most extraordinary of things. And nimittamatram bhavasau visachi Krishna tells Arjuna, become an instrument in my hands. Become an instrument for me.
So, we all, that is the call not just to Arjuna but for all of us. We all can become the vehicles by which the infinite can manifest infinite grace to us. We all have certain capacities and we can do certain things according to those capacities.
But if we become devoted to Krishna, Krishna can empower us to do things far beyond our capacities also. That is Krishna's mercy. And throughout history, in our tradition, great souls have been empowered in this way.
Of course, we are far away from such exalted souls. But the fact is that just as Krishna used those great souls in their generation, every generation, Krishna needs souls from that generation. Krishna cannot use the great souls from the 15th, 16th, 17th centuries to share Krishna consciousness in the 21st century.
Krishna needs souls from the 21st century. And each one of us, if we try to become devoted, if we try to become purified, if we strive to become connected, then Krishna can use us in extraordinary ways. And the responsibility for sharing our tradition in our generation is ours.
It is not the predecessors. They are much more glorious than what we are, but they were glorious by Krishna's instruments to carry on his tradition in our generation also. So, before this one incident, Prabhupada was in Mayapur and he heard how one of his most prominent devotees, disciples, had somehow had a fall and he had decided to quit Krishna consciousness.
And Prabhupada wrote a very moving letter. Prabhupada said that, you know, I had such great hopes for you and now you have left me. I am feeling forlorn.
Now, forlorn is actually a very poetic word. I am feeling very lonely, abandoned. I am feeling forlorn.
Now, Prabhupada had become all alone on a ship at the age of 17. He was always with Krishna. But Prabhupada was expressing how strong was the emotional connect that he had developed with those who he was caring for spiritually.
He said, I am feeling forlorn. But then Prabhupada goes on speaking and then he concludes the letter by saying that, I am confident that Lord Chaitanya will send the right souls to assist me in spreading his movement all over the world. And then Prabhupada concludes, if not you, then someone else.
So, if not you, then someone else. That doesn't mean that Prabhupada treated souls like dispensable. He had a personal relationship with everyone.
But ultimately, if we don't take the responsibility, Krishna will empower somebody else who takes that responsibility. So, we understand that at one level, the finite and the infinite, the boundaries are rigid. The finite can never become infinite.
But the finite can become a channel for the infinite. And each one of us can become a channel like that. In our small or large ways, however, the Lord wants to use us.
But if the Lord chooses to use us, we can do wonderful things for the world. And even if the Lord doesn't choose to use us like that, still connecting with him will ensure that we will become, we will become purer, we will become better. Ultimately, we will attain him.
So, always connecting with the infinite is always auspicious for the finite. To summarize, I spoke today on the topic of how the finite and the infinite link with each other. That is a broad topic.
I started by how the transcendental manifests through the biological. So, we are identified not just by who we are but by whose we are, what group we belong to. And one group is our lineage, our parentage.
So here, Pruthu is referred to by Vainya, the son of Vainya. This is not a denigration but a glorification that sometimes some people are from illustrious past and they become illustrious themselves. Some people come from a very regrettable past and still they become glorious.
That is also a glorification of them. So here, the Lord is manifesting through somebody who was evil. And that is just to demonstrate his transcendence.
And for all of us, we do get not just our genetic characteristics from our parents, but also it's likely that the consciousness of our parents and our consciousness must have been similar. That's how we are born from there. Though we are products of our past, we are not prisoners of our past.
And the door out of the past for us is through our purification, through our devotion to the Lord. So when Bhrutu is descending over here, I talked about the principle of avatar. So the Bhagavad Gita offers not just another worldview, but another worldview.
There's material reality and spiritual reality. And some religious traditions say that the finite can never house the infinite. But that is based on a material conception of the infinite.
God is infinite but he's not stuck with his infinity. His infinity that he can manifest in the finite and still remain infinite. Some people say that God manifests only one time and that actually limits God's grace.
So the Bhakti tradition says that God is God's love. The infinite's love for the finite is infinite and therefore there are infinite manifestations as many as the waves in the ocean. In Hindu tradition some people say that everybody is God.
That is patently false because we are all conditioned and limited. So there are many times when the Lord descends and one special category which we discussed in the last part was where the finite soul can never become infinite but the finite soul can become a channel for the infinite and at that time the infinite can do extraordinary things. So Pruthu Maharaj is considered infinite.
He's a soul like that and we discussed this in the last He's Krishna consciousness to people who he didn't know and gave them something which they didn't know. It's historically unprecedented and it's reasonable to infer that he was extraordinarily empowered by the Lord and if you consider him as Shaktyavasa then we understand Shaktyavasa is not an exhaustive category, but an indicative category. And for all of us, we can also, if we become devoted and purified, we can also be empowered by the Lord.
And the same Lord will engage great souls in previous generations to carry on the tradition of compassion. He can also engage us. And if we choose not to become pure, then the Lord will carry on His mission, if not through us, then through someone else.
Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. Any questions or comments? Yes.
What's the difference between vibhuti and shakti avasya avatar? Generally, vibhuti is basically something which is already present in the world, which is extraordinary. Like among mountains, I am the Himalayas. I am the Meru.
Among the rivers, I am Ganga. So they're already present in the world. And these are manifestations which are extraordinary in some way.
And that extraordinariness is appointed to the divine. So whereas shakti avasya avatars are specific, time-bound descents of the Lord, with specific personalities. I mean, the personalities can also be vibhutis.
But if we consider among animals, I am the Muruganam, Murugendro. Among animals, I am the lion or the tiger. Different place, different thing might be said.
But whatever it is. Then, now there are always lions in the forest. They are not shakti avasya avatars.
They are lions. They are basically what? They are vibhutis. That means the special power that they have, that power is coming from God and can point us to God.
The concept of vibhuti is explained by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita in response to Arjuna's question, keshu keshu cha bhaveshu chintyo si bhagwanmaya. Katham vidyam aham yogim stham satha sudha parichinte. It says, while I am functioning in the world, how can I remember you? The idea is, say, if we are studying in a university.
And then we find some professor who's just brilliant. We may actually be attracted to the professor's brilliance. But instead of just being attracted to that professor's brilliance, we see that this brilliance of this person is coming from Krishna.
So what Krishna is telling is, whatever attracts our attention and attraction in the material world, see its attractiveness as my spark. So vibhuti is any extraordinary display of power. Shaktyabhishap has specific personalities who display extraordinary power for furthering the Lord's mission.
Now, the vibhutis may not be doing that. When a lion, say, pounces on a deer, that has nothing to do with raising God consciousness. Sometimes some vibhutis can also be asuri.
Some people might be stunningly beautiful, but then they may use their beauty to exploit others. Some people might be very smooth talkers, and they may use that to cheat others. So that capacity to talk, that is a vibhuti, but it is being used for demonic purposes.
So both in terms of the manifestation and the purpose for which they are used, both in terms of the longevity of the manifestation and the purpose for which that manifestation is used, vibhutis and Shaktyabhishap are different. Thank you. Any other questions? Yes.
I'm mentioning the creation of the Lord through the five elements. So, can the Lord be manifested through the five elements? Can manifest through? Yes, that is the question. Okay.
So if Krishna's love for us is infinite, then the love that we experience in the world, the material love, can it reach the infinite? Can it be directed toward the infinite? So basically, we have two kinds of relationships. We have a vertical relationship with Krishna, and we have a horizontal relationship with others. And in our relationship in this world, there are times when we do experience love.
When a mother has a newborn baby, mother does have love for the baby. And Prabhupada says that's the closest we get to selfless love in this world, the mother's love for a child. And in the Dhruva Maharaj's pastime, Dhruva Maharaj's mother, Suniti, says to him that whatever love I can offer you, millions of mothers like me can't offer you as much love as Vishnu can offer.
Now what this means is Vishnu's love is so great. But another point of this is that she is not considering her love as false. If this love were false, if it were zero, then millions of times of zero will also be zero.
Isn't it? So the love we experience in the world is also real. But it is like a drop. It is like a drop in the sense that what happens, the same person who loves us, sometimes two people, they fight against the world.
I can't live without you. They fight against the whole world. And then after a few months, they say, I can't live with you.
So the love just disappears at times. And even if it doesn't disappear because of this, our life spans are finite. Love will end at that time at least.
So we do experience enrichment even through our horizontal connections. We don't deny that. But we don't get captivated by that.
And we don't limit our love to only that. Some people spend their whole life searching for horizontal love. We definitely need loving relationship in this world.
But even if we get wonderful relationships, even if we don't get wonderful relationships, the horizontal relationships are never going to last. So we need to focus on developing the vertical relationship. So you can consider it, say, we are in the ocean.
We are in the desert. And suppose in the desert, there are some drops of water which are here, which take us to the ocean. Some drops of water just keep us in the same distance from the ocean.
Some drops of water take us away from the ocean. Now we are here. Which drop should I pursue? So we might experience love in the association of devotees.
Those are like drops which take us towards the ocean. The more we bond with devotees, the more that will make us closer to the ocean. Now there might be some people who are not just non-devotees.
They are non-devotional, they are anti-devotional. They are completely against all devotional principles. And they may also be loving.
But that love is like drops which take us away from the ocean. So we need to be careful about those kind of relationships. Not that we necessarily reject them.
If we want them, better avoid them. But if we are already in that kind of relationship, then we don't get completely controlled by that. So our capacity for love is finite.
But Krishna can accept even our finite love. And he can reciprocate with that. So when we try to…Krishna says… In 9.26 he says, even if you offer me a fruit, a flower, a leaf or even a little water, I accept it.
If it's offered with love. So Krishna wants ultimately our heart. And he doesn't necessarily want the infinite love.
He just wants our love. So we try to practice bhakti with whatever capacity we have. And we try to offer our love to Krishna.
And till we experience Krishna's love, we need horizontal relationships also. And we try to get that need for love fulfilled in a way that is devotionally harmonious. That doesn't take us away from Krishna.
Does that answer your question? Thank you. I have a question. You said infinite can become finite.
Infinite can manifest infinity. But finite cannot… Become infinite. We cannot become God, yeah.
So it sounds… Okay. Okay. So if you say that finite cannot become infinite, then when they talk about moksha or nirvana, what exactly is that? Okay.
See, God has multiple levels of manifestation. Just like if you consider this light, there is one localized source of light. But from there, from that bulb, light is radiating outward.
So similarly, God has multiple manifestations. There is a personal manifestation who is called as Bhagawan. And then from him, there is an effulgence coming.
That is called the Brahman or the Brahmajyoti. So now both of them are at one level, non-different. So there is one God who is manifesting both ways.
So those who are in the spiritual traditions across the world, broadly speaking, there are personalists and impersonalists. So those who are personalists are attracted to the personal manifestation, to the Bhagawan, to the light source. The impersonalists are attracted to the light.
Now quite often they are attracted to the light because they don't know anything about the source of light. In the Isha Upanishad, there is a prayer. My dear Lord, your true face is covered by a blinding brightness.
So normally we think of darkness as blinding. But sometimes brightness can also be blinding. Like if you are travelling in a car on a road and the opposite driver, suddenly there is a glare.
You can't see anything. So we come out of the darkness of the material arena. But then in the material world, we are blinded by darkness.
When we come out of the darkness, we can be blinded by brightness. So in one sense, the idea that there is a light and I want to merge into that light. I want to become one with that light.
That is a natural, universal, first step in spiritual realization. And at that time, the focus primarily is not so much in what is the nature of the ultimate reality. It is such that this reality is full of misery and I want to get out of it.
That's the whole idea of moksha, liberation. Means what? Okay, I am bound here and to be bound is miserable, I want to get out of it. So what to do after that, that is not very well thought out so deeply.
It's like suppose somebody is having arthritis. They are sick and they are in pain. And every moment of the body causes pain.
I just move my head, I just call out. It's like constant pain. At that time, the first desire would be, I just want to stop moving.
If I can stop moving, I will be free from pain. Now that's true. But if you can somehow stop moving and you can become free from pain.
And then after that, you want to start moving again. Because you don't want to just stay motionless all the time. So here there is a misdiagnosis.
It's an understandable misdiagnosis. The cause of the pain is not the motion. The cause of the pain is the disease.
So it appears to us that the motion is causing the pain. But it's not motion. It's the disease causing the pain.
Similarly, some people have this idea that the form and personality, all these are the cause of pain. That when we get attracted to forms, we get deluded. And afterwards, that form loses its attractiveness.
And then we are entangled. There are different kinds of people. Each of them have their attractiveness.
But each of them have their limitations also. And then we get bound. So we feel, I just don't want any relationship.
I don't want any form. I don't want any personality. I just want to be peaceful.
And those who are, in a sense, their conception of spirituality is more recoiling from the material reality. Not so much propelling towards the spiritual reality. From basic positive attraction of the spiritual reality.
So their idea is, they just want to be liberated from this world. Now that is also possible. But the soul by nature is relational.
We want relationships. And that's why going into that impersonal effulgence to become another particle of light, that is not a very palatable or sustainable prospect for the soul. Now liberation is definitely possible.
And in bhakti also there is liberation. There are two kinds of liberation, you could say. This is often when I give seminars on de-addiction, I talk about this.
There is freedom from and there is freedom for. What you are free from and what you are free for. So many times when somebody becomes an addict, say they become alcoholic or they become drug addicts, their whole focus goes on, I want to give this up, I want to give this up, I want to give this up, I want to be free from this.
But that is a very negative focus. More important than giving up that habit is creating a life worth living. If you were free from this, what will you do? And you start doing that as much as you can.
So the focus is not on what we are free from, but what we are free for. So in bhakti we focus on being free for loving Krishna, for serving Krishna, for delighting in our relationship with Krishna. And then we understand lust, anger, greed, all these, they drag us away from Krishna.
And that's why we don't want it. So a devotee is not so much interested in liberation for liberation's sake. A devotee is interested in liberation for love's sake.
Because we will be liberated so that we can love Krishna more. So that is considered to be the highest level of liberation. Because there our focus is not just on our own peace, but it is on our Lord's pleasure.
It is a more selfless understanding of spiritual perfection. Thank you very much. Thank you.