Is applying material science to spiritual things wrong?

I am really surprised how as devotees we are applying material science concepts in the spiritual world. We all know about the trees in Nidhuvan (Vrndavan) grow downwards after a particular height. We know the wonders of Jagannath Puri how things happens against material laws. If we see the vigraha as metal, then we are no less than atheists who are envious of the Lord. High time we evaluate our Krsna Consciousness.

Answer Podcast:

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Thank you. Hare Krishna. Question from Sudhameet Chitramataji.
Can concepts from material science be applied to the spiritual world? It’s said that in Vrindavan, in Nidhuvan, the trees after reaching a particular height grow downwards, or that in Jagannath Puri, the laws of nature don’t apply. So if we see the deities as metal, or we see their tears as condensation, then aren’t we being like atheists? Answer, we shouldn’t restrict the realm of spiritual and divorce it from science. You know, when the first Vatyatra was held, and in London, and the devotees took the model, the measures from San Francisco, but they build a bigger Vatyatra.
And as they were going along, the Vatyatra crumbled, the wheels fell off because it was too much weight, and it was a PR disaster. So at that time, one of the leaders from their Gurudas Purusha Prabhupada asking him, Prabhupada, did this Vatyatra fail because of our poor devotion? Prabhupada replied, no, it was because of poor engineering. So now, what exactly was the answer that Prabhupada was giving? So Prabhupada was saying that, there is a material explanation that it was too, the superstructure of the Vatyatra, of the Rathkara was too heavy, and the base could not sustain it.
Now Vatyatra is a spiritual event, no doubt. And because it’s a spiritual event, the Deities there are spiritual, and we can experience spiritual emotions over there. But the spiritual is in addition to the material.
It is not in substitution of the material. Some other examples, if we go directly to Jagannath Puri itself, when the Nava Kalaivar festival happens, when the Deities are given a new body, Kalaivar new body. So at that time, the Pujaris actually go and search for a specific, very specific tree with very specific markings, which indicate the appropriateness of that tree to become the medium where Jagannath manifests his form.
So now, if the Deity is not material, then why bother about having a specific material? Because that is the material that is mentioned in scripture through which Jagannath manifests. So now, if you look in Vrindavan itself, after Krishna lifted the Govardhan hill, the Vrajvasis came to Nanda Maharaj and asked him, now how is it that such a small boy lifted a Govardhan mountain, big mountain, and for seven days too? So now what does this question imply? This question itself implies that mountains are very heavy and they cannot be lifted by a small boy, even for a little time, what to speak of seven days. So they may not specifically exhibit knowledge of what we call as the law of gravity, but the principle that heavy objects cannot be lifted, that is a law of material nature.
And that knowledge they exhibited. And when this law was contradicted, they wondered about it. So the point is that if we go to Vrindavan and say we slip and fall in the temple hall, if we slip and fall heavily, we may break our leg.
So now, does the breaking of the leg have a material cause or a spiritual cause? There can be a spiritual cause. Anything that happens in the dharms of the Lord is purified. There is a special plan of the Lord underlying it all.
At the same time, there is a material cause. So yes, I slipped, maybe there’s water over there, because of the water, I slipped and I fell. So now, the anti-devotional or atheistic vision is to see only the material and to not see the spiritual at all.
So if we see the deity only as matter and they think just this is a stone statue. Now that is wrong. That is completely wrong, because the deity is not stone.
Deity is maybe made of stone, maybe made of metal, but it is actually when the Pranapratishtha is done and once Krishna’s presence is invoked, then the deity becomes Krishna. Now even after the deity becomes Krishna, still as far as the material manifestation of the deity is concerned, material laws apply. How do material laws apply? That’s why if a deity is exposed to the elements and the deity is exposed to the rain, then the deity is made of say some earthen element, then the deity may erode away.
So similarly, if the deity, because of the Pujari’s carelessness, falls, some deity parts may break. So now for the omnipotent Krishna, nothing can happen. That is how we see the manifestation of the divine in matter obeys material laws.
Why? Krishna doesn’t have to obey material laws. Krishna is independent and Krishna can transcend material laws whenever he wants, but the manifestation of the deity is not to demonstrate Krishna’s omnipotence. The manifestation of Krishna as the deity is to give us an opportunity to render devotional service.
So that’s why we see sometimes Mlecchas would desecrate the deities. Now Krishna is omnipotent, how does he allow, how come Mlecchas desecrate the omnipotent lord? Because Krishna, when he manifests as the deity, he allows the atheists to continue their atheism by making them imagine this is a story. Every manifestation of the lord has a particular purpose.
So the deity’s manifestation is to demonstrate Krishna’s, not to demonstrate Krishna’s omnipotence, but to give us an opportunity to serve. So it is the devotee’s responsibility to take care of the deity and to carefully handle so that the deity is not exposed to the elements, the deity doesn’t slip or fall or nobody comes and desecrates the deity. These are ways in which Krishna allows us the opportunity to serve him.
So now the devotees are conscious of the of the material manifestation of the deity and they act accordingly. So now when we talk about the material manifestation, that does not mean that the deity is material, but the deity has manifested through a particular matter, through a particular form of matter and in that particular form of matter is going to deteriorate or is going to be affected by something, then appropriate precautions have to be taken. So the atheistic idea is to think that there is nothing more than matter over there, but to think that there is no matter over there is not just naive, but it can be devotionally deleterious.
If a devotee thinks that the deity is not material, so whatever happens, nothing will happen to the deity. In the early days when they first they had made Jagannath, in San Francisco the devotees had brought Jagannath, had installed Jagannath and one day they just suddenly, Prabhupada was doing kirtan outside in one of the gardens and suddenly he saw that Jagannath had been brought there and Jagannath was exposed to the elements in the garden and Prabhupada said, why did you bring Jagannath? Jagannath likes kirtan, so we thought we will also enjoy the kirtan. Prabhupada told them that it is only during special festivals by special processions that the lord can be brought over the temple.
So Prabhupada offered obeisances and sought forgiveness from Jagannath and of course when the kirtan was over, Prabhupada let the kirtan go on. So the point is that we have to understand that whenever there is any manifestation of the divine in this world, that manifestation is transcendental but when that manifestation happens in this world then we have to be conscious of the material side of the manifestation if that is what is required for our service. So that is what is required for our service, we have to be conscious of that.
It’s not that we are oblivious of that but the mistake is to be conscious only of that. Now in the spiritual world when Krishna wants, all material laws can be violated because Krishna is the lord of all material laws. He can suspend the laws whenever he wants but the point is that when it comes to our rendering service to the lord, we have to see what is the best way we can serve him.
We don’t demand from him that you violate the laws of nature so that you take care of yourself. Now we know that deity, when lechas would sometimes attack the deities, the pujaris sometimes lay down their life to protect the deities. Now you may think God is there, why does God need protection? God should give me protection but that is the non-devotional view.
The devotional view is that lord is my master and I am his servant and it is my duty to serve my master so I’ll do whatever it takes to serve the lord. So now if serving the lord requires being conscious of the material side, the devotee will be conscious of the material side. When I say the material side, it has to be careful to understand what I am saying.
I am not saying that the deity is material. I am clearly saying that the deity is spiritual but the spiritual has manifested through a particular manifestation and that manifestation obeys the laws of nature. Now if we say that none of the divine manifestations are under the laws of nature at all, they are not under in the sense that we are under but they choose to be under.
We don’t choose to be under but they choose to be under. Prabhupada gives the example that when Krishna comes to the material world, it’s like the king coming to the prison. The king is not under the laws of the prison but the king is in the prison.
So like that Krishna is in this world. So for example, prasad is transcendental but if prasad is cooked and it’s kept for say 24 hours then as per the laws of material nature that prasad will get at the material level’s point and if we eat it, we may say I don’t believe the laws of material nature apply to spiritual things. Well if I eat that food, the laws of nature will apply to my stomach and my stomach will get upset.
So we may say that oh it is prasad and it will purify me. Yes but there are other ways to other more continuous ways to purify ourselves. We don’t have to take prasad which is spoiled at the material level.
We can offer our obeisance to that prasad and then respectfully take some other prasad to eat if it has been spoiled. So the point is that neglect of the material laws entirely can be hazardous. So it can be.
So that means there are two extremes. One is to skeptically reduce everything spiritual to the material and the other is to deny that there is anything material within the spiritual. So now here we have to look at, this is again a complex issue and we have to understand what do we mean by the material and the spiritual.
So we can say that the spiritual master is spiritual. That is definitely the spiritual master is spiritual. At the same time the spiritual master’s body needs medicines sometimes.
When it is sick, the spiritual master’s body can also become sick. So there is spiritual in constitution and there is spiritual in application. Spiritual in constitution means that which is made of spirit, that which is made of satchitananda and spiritual in application means that which is used for spiritual purposes.
So that which is spiritual in constitution is eternally spiritual. It is satchitananda. So atma is satchitananda.
Krishna’s vigraha is satchitananda. So that is spiritual in constitution. Now when we consider the divine, when divine manifests within this world, whatever manifestation, whatever it may be, so that is spiritual in application.
So spiritual in application means that it’s like we can say that when say we are, I’m speaking in front of a particular camera. This camera is being used for spiritual purposes. So we could say the camera is spiritual.
But the camera is not made of satchitananda. Camera is made of material substances. So it is being used for spiritual purposes.
So if something is spiritual in constitution, then the laws of material science and material nature don’t apply at all. So in the spiritual world, Krishna is completely free to do whatever he wants and then everything is indestructible. So that’s the spiritual world which is satchitananda.
Now when we come to the material world, then here the laws of material nature apply. Now when the spiritual manifests in the material, then what happens at that time? At that time we have to be very careful, very respectful. At the same time, we have to use our intelligence.
Prabhupada would often say that Krishna consciousness also means intelligence. We have to use our intelligence. Not that we become over intelligent and contradict scripture, but rather we use our intelligence properly so that we can serve in the best possible way.
So now when we go to Vrindavan or Mayapur, at that time we can say, oh, this is a spiritual place and everybody here is spiritual. But then there may be local businessmen, local rickshaw-vallas or local shop vendors, they may fleece us if we are not careful. They say, you are spiritual, whatever you are speaking are Krishna’s words.
No, we won’t say that. Why? They need physically there as Bhaktivinoda Thakur says in Navdvidhaam Atma and elsewhere, that actually the dham is covered by Yogamaya. So we can’t see the spiritual nature of the dham right now.
That means that the spiritual dimension is there and with the eyes of faith and with the eyes of devotion, we see the spiritual dimension and we appreciate the spiritual dimension and as we become purified, we relish the spiritual dimension. At the same time, we see the material dimension not as material, but as an opportunity for us to render appropriate service. So it is said that in the spiritual world, there are no dust particles at all and still the goddess of fortune cleans the houses because they want to attract the lord through service.
But in the material world, there is dust. So even if it is temple, even if the temple is a dham, you could say my temples are Vaikuntha and Mayapur or Govindavan are spiritual world, but still in the temple also there is dirt. And if a room is getting dirty, then we will see, you know, from where is the dirt coming? Oh, there is a window over there and the wind comes from that side.
So maybe we have to put the window on this side that even if we keep the window open, so much dirt will not come. So now what does this mean? This means we are understanding the laws of nature apply. So now most important thing or not most important, one of the important things is that actually we shouldn’t divorce the laws of nature from Krishna and his spiritual realm.
Krishna can act by transcending the laws of material nature and Krishna can act even through the laws of material nature. So the laws cannot exert the law or lawmaker and to see that if we are seeing the laws of nature acting, that means we are not seeing Krishna acting is to reduce only to the spiritual. But Krishna acts by transcending the laws of nature and it is Krishna who acts by through the laws of nature also.
That is, they are his laws. So to see, so in this vision, even to see the laws of science as something as separate to Krishna, something is opposed to Krishna, that is a fragmented vision which reduces the jurisdiction of Krishna. So a devotee sees the glory of Krishna in phenomena wherein the laws of nature are suspended and a devotee sees the glory of Krishna in phenomena where even the laws of nature are acting.
Because even they, where are the laws acting? That itself is a miracle. As the famous Indian mathematician Srinivas Ramayana says, an equation has for me no meaning unless it represents a thought of God. So the laws of nature are nothing but thoughts of God which are in action in the universe.
So to reduce God only to the spiritual, so we might say that by applying a scientific concept to the spiritual realm, we are being atheistic. But the truth is by seeing the scientific as separate from Krishna, that is how we are minimizing Krishna. Because the scientific is also ultimately coming from Krishna.
It was Galileo who said that I do not believe that God has given me the eyes and brain to throw it away. I have given it, he has given it to me to use in his service, to understand the world. So we see in the Bhagavad Gita where Krishna says I gave this knowledge to son God.
Arjuna does not simplistically, okay you did not say yes, how is it possible? According to the laws of nature, you are born, you are born no recently, he is born long long ago. So how could you have given the knowledge to him? Now the difference is this is not atheism, this is not skepticism. Why? Because when Krishna gives a spiritual explanation, there is a spiritual logic to it.
We have gone through many births and in the previous birth I gave this knowledge. Krishna accepts this. So the point is we shouldn’t simplistically divorce the laws of science from God’s actions.
God can act by transcending the laws of science and God can act through the laws of science. Prabhupada writes in the 7th canto, in that 7th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, the purport from rasoham apsu kaunteya to ye chenyo sattvika bhava, there he says the jurisdiction of Krishna consciousness extends everywhere and one who has knowledge of Krishna and knowledge of Krishna is liberation, ignorance of Krishna is bondage. So therefore one who has knowledge of Krishna is fortunate.
So we should see the actions of Krishna everywhere, not just in the spiritual realm but also in the material realm, also in the so-called laws of science, which are not laws of science, they are also laws of Krishna. Thank you. Hare Krishna.