Is it necessary that we take initiation from a siddha guru and not a sadhaka-guru?

From Anand Zope.

I came in contact with one Gaudiya Sanyasi in Puri.In a discussion he said U should Take Initiation from Siddha Guru & not Sadhya Guru.I couldn’t understand explanation given by him.If it is possible can u please help me in this regard ?

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
for choosing our actions and being responsible for the consequences of our actions. Thank you. What he probably meant was, you should take initiation from a Siddha Guru and not a Sadhaka Guru.
Because Sadhya is not a Guru. Sadhya is Krishna, who is the ultimate goal. Now, this is an idea that is often used by some Gauriyamat devotees to try to minimize the devotees within ISKCON and to encourage ISKCON devotees to take initiation from them.
Actually, if the Gauriyamat devotees are also practicing the teachings given by Shri Bhakti Sahaj Dhakur and the Gauriya Parampara properly, there are also ways in which we can make spiritual advancement and we can go back home, back to Godhead. At the same time, Shri Prabhupada gave us specific instructions to continue practicing Krishna Consciousness within ISKCON. Shri Prabhupada said to Bhakti Charu Maharaj, don’t leave ISKCON.
Whatever happens, even if there are problems within ISKCON, you should continue staying within ISKCON. So, the subtle understatement of this part kind of statement is that, actually all the ISKCON leaders are Sadhaka Gurus and we are Siddha Gurus. Right.
That means the ISKCON leaders are still seekers, whereas we are seers. And therefore, if you want to make spiritual advancement, come and take initiation from us. So, now Shri Prabhupada, he was very practical when he presented Krishna Consciousness to us.
Ultimately, how can we know who is how advanced? Who is Siddha and who is Sadhaka? It is very difficult for us to know. And this whole business of comparison based on subjective criteria, somebody claims I was born in a particular family or I have been in India throughout my life, I am doing this, this, because of which I am more advanced. These are all very subjective and they can even lead us to an offensive zone where we compare different people and we get into offenses by that.
So, how can we know who is Sadhaka and who is Siddha? We cannot know. It takes one to know one. How can we know who is Sadhaka Guru and who is Siddha Guru? We cannot know that and we don’t have to jump to any conclusions.
And Shri Prabhupada himself gives very objective criteria. How should we select a Guru? One is situated in the transcendental world and he is an expert in conveying the transcendental world to others. So, when one is situated in this way, then one can make steady spiritual advancement and not only has one made steady spiritual advancement himself, but such a person is Guru who can direct others also towards Krishna.
So, in this way, this is a very objective criteria. We can look at who are the people who have dedicated their lives to Krishna. And we will see many of Shri Prabhupada’s disciples, they are selflessly laying down their lives, traveling all over the world and taking the anxiety of managing institution and solving the problems of neophyte disciples and working extremely hard overall to continue on the mission.
So, therefore, by looking at their sacrifice and their extreme dedication and hard work, we can be sure that they are devoted to Krishna and they can help us to make spiritual advancement. Shri Prabhupada himself was asked this question at Tamal Krishna Maharaj at that time in the early 1970s, when the devotees started interacting with Gaudiya Mata devotees. So, some of the people from within Gaudiya Mata started creating some aspersions against Shri Prabhupada.
And so, Tamal Krishna Maharaj wrote a letter to Shri Prabhupada and he said that, Prabhupada does the spiritual master know who he was in his previous life? Now, in his intimate dealings, if Prabhupada told Bhavananda Maharaj that I was with Krishna in the spiritual world and Krishna told me go to the material world and write some books and share my message. So, in one or two conversations like that, Shri Prabhupada said that he has come from the spiritual world. But that was not what Shri Prabhupada spoke publicly.
Shri Prabhupada did not consider that his mandate for spreading Krishna consciousness came from some esoteric vision or esoteric claim, unverifiable subjective claim that he was in the spiritual world with Krishna and he came from there. Prabhupada said my spiritual master has given me the instruction and because of that I am trying to share Krishna consciousness all over the world. So, Shri Prabhupada maintained that non-subjective, non-esoteric explanation even while answering Tamal Krishna Maharaj’s question.
He said that, you know, how does it matter who I was in my previous life? He says an astrologer told that I was a virtuous king or whatever, I was a very wealthy person. But Shri Prabhupada did not say that that astrologer was conclusive in his saying, in whatever he said. The point Shri Prabhupada said is that if a person is a millionaire and if a beggar approaches him or a needy person approaches him and the millionaire is ready to give charity, then how does it matter to the needy person whether the millionaire was born rich or he worked and became rich? It doesn’t matter because either way he can get the charity from him.
Similarly, how does it matter if somebody has was eternal associate in the spiritual world and is descended from the spiritual world or whether that person is sadhaka who became advanced now by the practice of Krishna consciousness and has become enriched in devotion? Either way, if we associate with the senior Sikon leaders, those who are serving as spiritual masters, we will see that they surely have far more devotion to Krishna than what we have. They have the wealth of bhakti. How have they got it? And how much have they got it? So, one thing which we can certainly say is that they have got it much more than us.
And when we know that, we can associate with them and we can get bhakti from them. Now, even if they are not siddha now, they are also practicing devotional service sincerely, dedicatedly, in fact far more dedicatedly than us. So, they are also increasing their wealth of devotion.
So, as we by following them can make advancement, they will make further advancement and that way they will always be in a position where they can give bhakti to us. So, rather than going into this sort of subjective and possibly offensive evaluation of who is sadhaka and who is siddha, we focus on just observing objectively, is a person dedicated to serving Krishna? And if he is, then and especially if his way of serving Krishna and glorifying Krishna inspires us to similarly serve Krishna, then that person can be our guru. So, in the Bhakti Samyukta Sindhu, the science of spiritual advancement are talked about in various ways.
At one level, it is talked about ashtavikar, that when one is having love for Krishna, one will see tears of ecstasy coming from the eyes, the hair will stand up and a person will tremble. Now, these are certainly exalted symptoms of advancement, but they are all imitable symptoms. Somebody can artificially bring tears by certain chemicals or whatever, the fingers can be raised, trembling is also possible.
So, Rupa Goswami in the Bhakti Samyukta Sindhu, based on the Vedic scriptures, also gives inimitable symptoms. So, these objective symptoms of bhakti are talked about both in the Chaitanya Charita Amrit, in Madhya Leela 23, 18, 19, which is actually Chaitanya Mahaprabhu telling Rupa Goswami, and then Rupa Goswami writes them in Bhakti Samyukta Sindhu in 1.3.25.26. So, the Chaitanya Charita is as follows, So, when the seed of ecstatic emotion for Krishna fructifies, the following nine symptoms manifest in one’s behavior. Forgiveness, concern that time should not be wasted, detachment, absence of false prestige, hope, eagerness, a taste for chanting the holy name of the Lord, attachment to descriptions of the transcendental qualities of the Lord, and affection for those places where the Lord resides, i.e. a temple or a holy place like Vrindavan.
These are all called anubhav, subordinate signs of the ecstatic emotions. Here, visible in a person in whose heart, the seed of love of God has begun to fructify. So, the point being made over here is, if you look at these, avyarthakaalatva, not wasting time, detachment, eagerness to glorify Krishna, eagerness to live in the holy places or to build temples and create holy places elsewhere, these are objective, non-imitable qualities.
Not wasting time, we can see how ISKCON leaders are working tirelessly, late nights and waking up early in the mornings, and continuing on the sadhana day after day, month after month, year after year, and not only sadhana, there is huge responsibility of seva, and going around and preaching everywhere. So, these are objective characteristics, and if we see the objective characteristics in a person, the eagerness to glorify Krishna, eagerness to chant Krishna’s names, attachment to going to the holy places and taking others to the holy places, and valuing time and ensuring that every moment of time is utilized for Krishna’s service. So, if we are seeing these qualities, then we can rest assured that the person is having the seed of bhakti fructifying wonderfully in his heart.
So, therefore, we can rest assured that such a person can be our spiritual master. And as long as we are seeing such objective criteria in our spiritual master, objective qualities, we can rest assured that by following the spiritual master, we will make spiritual advancement. And we don’t have to bother whether the spiritual advanced master is siddha or not siddha.
We know that he is far more advanced than us, and by following him, we will make spiritual advancement. And if the spiritual master of certain organizations, who are followers of the Gaudiya Mata, Bhakti Sankhya Thakur started, if they are manifesting such symptoms, they are also acharyas, devotees who can take us back to Godhead. We have been connected to Krishna Consciousness by Srila Prabhupada’s mercy, and we would like to stay faithful to Srila Prabhupada.
So, we can respect these Gaudiya Mata sannyasis. They can also be great souls, but we don’t have to get deluded by such conceptions, which bring us in a zone of subjective and possibly offensive judgment and comparison among different devotees. And it also causes us to contravene Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to stay within his throne.
So, let’s look at objective criteria of who all is dedicated to Krishna’s mission, to Lord Chaitanya’s mission. And if they are doing that, and if they inspire us also to become similarly dedicated to Krishna and to his mission, then we can accept them as our spiritual masters.