Is Srimad Bhagavatam anti-householder? Why does it criticize householders so much?

Podcast:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

Summary

Does the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam unfairly criticize householders, or is there a deeper spiritual principle behind its contrasting teachings? This discussion untangles common misconceptions about the paths of renunciation, karma, and pure devotion.

• Beyond Ashrams: The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam contrasts pathways based on underlying intent rather than lifestyle—specifically pitting Karma-kāṇḍa (fruitive activity) and Jñāna-kāṇḍa (mental speculation) against Bhakti-yoga (pure devotion).

• The Danger of Categorical Mistakes: Equating householder devotees with fruitive workers is incorrect. Both householders and renunciates can practice pure devotion; the ultimate focus is taking shelter of Krishna regardless of one’s social order.

• The Ambarīṣa Mahārāja & Durvāsā Muni Paradigm: The Bhāgavatam features narratives where householder devotees (like Mahārāja Ambarīṣa) are elevated far above renounced yogis (like Durvāsā Muni), proving that external lifestyle does not dictate spiritual advancement.

• Avoiding Resentment in Practice: True spiritual progress requires accepting one’s current situation with surrender and actively aspiring to serve Krishna, avoiding the pitfall of emotional resentment toward one’s station in life.

• Maturity vs. Frustration: Real renunciation stems from a higher taste and attraction to Krishna, not merely from frustration with or aversion to material life.

• The Universal Goal: Whether practicing from a brahmachari, grhastha, or sannyasa ashram, the key principle is aligning one’s natural disposition (svabhāva) in Krishna’s service through proper guidance, enthusiasm, and faith.

Full Transcription

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Let’s start. This meeting is being recorded. nirviśeṣaḥ śuṇyavādī pāśyākya-deśa-tāriṇe vāñchā kalpata-rūḍhyas ca gṛhpāsindhūbhaya-vajraṁ atitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namah jaya śrī kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vinda Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare Hare Kṛṣṇa.
So, let me just link my tablet. Can you make me a host on the tablet also, from where I’ve joined? So, this is a theme that comes repeatedly in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and sometimes the repetition of a particular theme brings about a certain level of clarity and sometimes Can you please make that a host also? Hare Kṛṣṇa? Yes, Papaji, it’s done. Done? Okay.
So, when a similar theme comes repeatedly in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam we can consider multiple things that the repetition conveys some emphasis and the repetition is important So, here we’ll try to look at the repetition from the broader point of view of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam’s emphasis So, in one sense Dakṣa here is actually speaking something which is in one sense contrary to the message of the Bhāgavatam He says अहो असाधो साधुना साधु लिङ्गेन नस्त्वया असाधो कार्य अर्भ काना विक्षोर मार्गः प्रदर्शितः So, अहो असाधो साधुना असाधो साधुना that although you are among the society of you are supposed to be a member of the saintly you have acted in an unsaintly way साधु लिङ्गेन नस्त्वया linga means externals linga basically means generally the literal translation of the common translation of the word linga is gender स्री लिङ्गा, पुल लिङ्गा, नपुलसक लिङ्गा, like that but linga also means the external marks when a baby is newborn then the bodily marks help us understand which gender it is so linga refers to the externals साधु लिङ्गेन नस्त्वया so you have the externals of saadhu but you are not a saadhu असाधो कार्य अर्भ काना so असाधो कार्य so you have dishonestly in an unsayingly way अर्भ काना अर्भ is the children विक्षोर मार्गः प्रदर्शितः that विक्षोर मार्गः you have put them on the path of renunciation so the Shrimad Bhagavatam instructs in various ways one of the consistent ways in which the Bhagavatam instructs is by what we can call as Contrast so Contrast means that the Bhagavatam highlights the importance of a particular path by contrasting with the other paths so right here in the 6th Canto itself you will see that there is a contrast between both Karma Kanda or Karma Yoga and Gyan Kanda versus Bhakti Yoga and that was through the Ajamil pastime where the point was that Ajamil that sins the sinful reactions can be countered by atonement but sinful mentality still remains and the sinful activities also relapse by Gyan Kanda one can temporarily stop sinful actions also but the tendency remains and one will relapse but it is only by Bhakti Yoga that the sinful tendency itself will be removed so here another contrast is being highlighted that is the contrast between the path of Karma that is one path and the other is the path of Bhakti so now among these two paths each person the exponent of each path is embodied in a particular person so the embodiment of the path of Karma is Daksha and the path of the and the embodiment of the path of Bhakti is Narada now when this contrast is being drawn out at one level it may seem like it’s a contrast between the householder life and the renounced life and it is true but it is not that simple the Bhagavatam’s focus by the way is my audio clear or it is not very clear it is clear ok thank you ok good so sometimes the contrast now I will explain why the contrast can seem between the householder life and the renounced life but let’s focus on the principle over here the Bhagavatam is focused on drawing the contrast between various paths that were available for people so in the traditional Vedic context now there is the path of gradual piety this is you could say moderate piety piety is punya if there is moderate piety then this takes one to to Pitraloka it is not when we say Pitraloka it does not mean that all of one’s ancestors independent of their karma just go to one abode rather what it means is that in general in the past people were pious and those with average piety would go to Pitraloka now those with extraordinary piety would go to so you could say high piety very high piety those would go to Swarga so Swarga is not an ordinary attainment it requires extraordinary piety and then in contrast to this is the path that was feared and this is the path to Narak so this is the path of Narakloka and who goes there is the sinful those who do path they go to Narakloka so now in general it was understood that the most householders most householders would be on one of these two paths is the path of householders and this is the path of householders of course it is not just householders now the Bhagavatam has a particular framework in which it is spoken that means that whether it is India or the West in the past even a few hundred years before even people who are very attached people who are very materially minded even they would understand that they have to take some responsibility that’s why even for somebody who is attached Grahamedhi was there now if you consider today’s world you could say there is a path to a greater hell which would be completely irresponsible form of enjoyment where a person does not even take material responsibility where people just have say premarital sex, extramarital sex and all kinds of sexually deviant behaviours so but the Bhagavatam is speaking a particular reference points the Grahamedhis are those who are so attached to worldly life that they pay no attention to Dharma now in contrast to all these is the path of Bhakti the path of Bhakti exists in another category itself and this will take us to Swarga will it take us to Swarga? no it will take us to the spiritual world Vaikuntha and Goloka it’s a completely different category so Krishna says all these three paths if you put they are all in the Samsara Chakra they are all in the Samsara Chakra all these paths but only the path of Bhakti can take one outside the Samsara Chakra Samsara Chakra is A-Brahma-Bho-Na-Loka-Puna-Ra-Avartino-Arjuna that one goes across this world in the cycle of birth and death so the Bhagavatam’s primary now with this broad categorisation so while the contrast can be between can be between so the contrast that is being drawn over here is sorry this will have to move from here this Daksha is actually over here so in this particular trajectory actually Narada is over here Naraduni is over here and he is inspiring the sons of Daksha to go over here and Daksha is somewhere over here he is also a pious person so now with this broad understanding so Bhakti exists outside this gamut entirely it’s interesting there is some lag over here after I depicted it, it took some time to come on the screen but it’s ok so now with this particular diagram in mind now actually let’s make it slightly different now in the path of Bhakti itself we could say there are two lanes and both of these are the paths of Bhakti and Bhakti practised in the renounced order and Bhakti practised in the householder order so Bhakti does not fall in the category of when somebody is practising Bhakti they cannot be compared with those who are following the Karma Marga the Karma Marga is the Marga by which one tries to gain a better position in the world so if a devotee is practising Bhakti seriously whether the devotee is a grahastha or a sanyasi or a brahmachari or whatever so both such devotees are focused on attaining Krishna. Krishna is their goal now relatively speaking if we compare with these other paths now the other paths are like this just to put it in scale now as compared with the from the absolute perspective the difference between Pithal Loka and Svarga Loka is not much so actually this is the entire Samsara Chakra and here there is Naraka Loka so as compared to this the contrast between these two is not too much between the renounced order and the householder order because both of them are following Bhakti now sometimes within the Bhagavatam if we do not understand the Bhagavatam very carefully we might equate the renounced order with the Bhakti Marga and the householder order with the Karma Marga and if we do that, that is a categorical mistake it is a categorical mistake means it is a mistake in categorisation we are placing one thing in an uncategorized which does not belong to it, it is a categorisation mistake that is what are we doing if we equate if we equate householder devotees if we equate householder devotees with Karmakandis in the Karmakanda Marga only householders are there they are not equal at all now Karmakandis now Karmakandis may also practise the Brahmacharya Vratam initially but that is so that they can get some Punya and by which they can have good progeny so for them Brahmacharya is not meant to attain Brahman it is meant primarily to gain Punya so that they can get good progeny, Putra and other things like that so this is not the same category at all householder devotees and Karmakandis are very different categories so what is the difference why the difference the internal motivation is different is we could say totally different why is it different because householder devotees are aiming for Krishna and Karmakandis are aiming for Punya and a better life in this world or the next world so these two are very very different now with this broad categorisation understood now let’s move forward and look at a couple of points why sometimes these two are made similar Shishla Prabhupada when he categorises say the renounced order and the householder order his focus is primarily on on emphasising that if we are attached to the world attachment will lead to entanglement that is his primary focus and with that focus in mind what happens is attachment will lead to entanglement and that is what is to be avoided so Prabhupada’s primary concern is not to trash any particular order his primary concern is to protect us from attachment and if you keep this principle in mind there can be attachment in the householder life there can be attachment in the renounced order life in this particular context see what happens is in general whichever path a person follows that person often gets convinced that my path is the best path and they start thinking that any other path is actually a path of illusion and Krishna points to this Daksha mentality in 2.42-43 in the Bhagavad Gita where he talks about Karmakanda and he says that they think there is no other way than this they think bhoga and aishwarya is the primary purpose of life and kamaatmanah svarga para janma karma phala pradam kriya vishesha bahulam bhogaishvara gatim prati so Krishna uses and Krishna says later on that bhogaishvara pasaktanam daya aparita cetasam yavasaya atmika buddhi samadhau na vidhiyate so what Krishna says here is that basically in 2.42-43 he says that these people basically think that that the path of the purpose of life is to get punya and thereby get bhoga and aishwarya either in this world or in the other world bhoga is sense pleasure aishwarya is wealth Hiranya Kashipu had these two things Hiranya refers to wealth and Kashipu refers to bed bed is the place where bhoga is done so they think this is the purpose of life Krishna says if you think this is the purpose of life then samadhau na vidhiyate such a person cannot get samadhi Krishna says samadhi means the state of inner absorption inner satisfaction that is not possible Krishna says so now here Daksha because he is convinced that his path is right so now does he not know that liberation is required that liberation is what is the ultimate goal he says yes that is true but that requires a long long process of evolution so see in a normal way of living there is so let us try to understand this a little bit more now if we consider the traditional conception of life so this is if we consider this is life then here there is a first phase which is the brahmacharya phase then there is the grahastha phase then there is the vanaprastha phase and there is the sannyasa phase and generally speaking these three are the place where one practises karma kanda and this is the place where one starts practising jnana kanda so karma kanda means in brahmacharya life one is following the rules of celibacy and while the males we go to the ashram of the guru to stay and it is not that every single male would go neither lord rama nor the pandavas actually went and lived in the ashram of the guru that was one way of growing but the idea was practise celibacy and the females would in their homes practise chastity and basically both would acquire punya and in the grahastha life they would continue to do pious activities, continue dharma and karma kanda means that we have dharma artha and kama these three are what are the pursuits of life these are the purusharthas and karma kanda is also these three things and then after that in jnana kanda one starts looking for moksha so now from this perspective if a person simply has this karma kanda conception their idea is that unless a person has grown sufficiently unless a person has experienced the pleasures of life unless a person has gone beyond the pleasures of life jumping from here to here is actually unhealthy it is premature and it is unhealthy why because a person does not have the maturity a person does not have the renunciation so a person does not have the realisation so there is no realisation that is the idea over here and because there is no realisation jumping from brahmacharya life to sannyas life is not a good idea now daksha is not the kind of materialist that we would think of today as materialist they have no idea of maintaining celibacy of any kind nowadays this society has become so tragically or horrifically perverted that many young people actually proudly many of these movie stars and other stars they proudly put on their websites I lost my virginity at this age and they cheer this was your first sexual experience as they call it so it is as compared to today’s materialist daksha is way way higher up so even he asked his children to practise celibacy but he expected them to follow this path and he was saying these are children they do not have the maturity to actually renounce the world and therefore you are misleading them this is his understanding however now if we consider from the bhakti perspective from the bhakti perspective if we consider say Krishna is here and from wherever we are that wherever you are this is 1856 in the Gita Krishna says that wherever you are so from wherever you are you take shelter of me so in one sense for a devotee we could say that we can take shelter of Krishna from anywhere so if we consider in the life span this is brahmacharya this is grahastha this is vanaprastha and this is sanyas so from a devotee perspective actually wherever a person is at from there they can take shelter of Krishna and they can be elevated so now from a devotional perspective from devotional perspective the important thing is that one takes shelter of Krishna so so shelter of Krishna from anywhere anywhere means any ashram any place the idea is one wants to take shelter of Krishna and depending on how much shelter of Krishna one has taken how much dependence on Krishna one has one will actually be elevated and one is considered elevated so Mahaprabhu was a sanyasi but Mahaprabhu took instruction from Mahaprabhu took instruction from Ramanandaraya who was a grahastha and the same Srimad Bhagavatam will later demonstrate something else so here I made the point it might seem like this is a condemnation of grahastha ashram and it is a glorification of the sanyasa ashram it is not that simple we will look at another point over here we will see later on in the 9th kanta of the Srimad Bhagavatam there is a contrast between Ambarish Maharaj and Durvasa Muni and what happens over here is the Bhagavatam clearly shows that Ambarish Maharaj is far far greater than Durvasa Muni Durvasa Muni thinks he is superior because his idea is that he is thinking that from one perspective see it is like the brahmacharya grahastha vanaprastha we don’t see many major vanaprasthas in the Bhagavatam directly it is conceptually understood that vanaprastha is a transitional ashram generally and a sanyasa ashram so now what happens is that in one sense the sanyasa ashram is culturally respected culturally those who renounce the world are respected so what Durvasa Muni was thinking is that I am here Durvasa Muni was thinking I am up here and Ambarish Maharaj is down here so Durvasa Muni’s conception so now what happens because of this is this conception because of that he thought how dare he not respect me how dare he disrespect me by taking food before offering food to me however what the Bhagavatam shows that Durvasa Muni in one sense was practising jnana kanda and if you consider from the perspective of Krishna Durvasa Muni was down here and Ambarish Maharaj was up here so Ambarish Maharaj had taken great shelter of Krishna and Durvasa Muni yeah his ultimate purpose was Krishna but he was more of a jnani he knew about Vishnu but even when he went to Vaikuntha afterwards he sought protection from the Sudarshan Chakra he did not say oh now I have come to Vaikuntha let me stay over here so Ambarish Maharaj was actually much much greater than Durvasa Muni so the idea over here is that the Bhagavatam’s contrast is here between bhakti yoga is greater than jnana kanda so in the fourth canto the Bhagavatam contrasting bhakti yoga and karma kanda and here it is contrasting bhakti yoga and jnana kanda and it is showing that bhakti yoga is the highest path those who take shelter of Krishna are the highest and that is why for us when we are trying to practise bhakti we don’t have to make a huge you and cry a huge fuss about the renounced order or the householder order the important thing is practise bhakti yes culturally we offer respect to the renounced order but we see in the Chaitanya Charita Amrit that Mahaprabhu among the pancha tattva actually Srivastava or Advaitacharya they are all grahasthas and we have Mithyananda Prabhu who is also not technically a sanyasi he is also becomes a grahastha so the point is we may say ok they are not like us they are very exalted grahasthas well that is true but then we can say that the sanyasis at that time were also very exalted sanyasis the point here is not to minimise any order whether brahmachari order or grahastha order we see that here Advaitacharya, Srivastava, Mithyananda Prabhu they are all grahasthas so in our tradition while pronunciation is definitely praised we have the famous phrase where Raghunath Das Goswami his renunciation his renunciation his renunciation praises the lord but the point is something very significant we don’t see while Raghunath Das Goswami’s renunciation is glorified that is not at the cost of minimising anyone else when Raghunath Das Goswami was renounced and Mahaprabhu was praising him so much at that time there were associates of Mahaprabhu like Ramanand Rai then there was there were associates of Mahaprabhu like Ramanand Rai and we have Sarvabhattacharya who later became associates they were grahasthas and we don’t see them feeling insecure, worried constantly resenting, I am so fallen, when will I renounce I am entangled, we don’t see that nor do we see that in any of the other associates of Mahaprabhu so the point is we understand that wherever we are we focus on taking shelter of Krishna and for taking shelter of Krishna the key principle to conclude with this point key principle is anukulyasya sankalpa pratikulyasya varjanam we accept that it is anukul and we avoid that which is pratikul so now you could say that the renounced order is more anukul for bhakti in the renounced order we can practise bhakti better in the householder order we cannot practise it better well maybe, maybe not because everybody has a particular nature, everybody has a particular disposition but one thing we have to understand is so what we have to understand is what is anukul for us is acceptance acceptance acceptance of the present situation we are in that is a part of our surrender to Krishna and pratikul is resentment if you look at the Gita’s example Arjuna felt initially very resentful why do I have to fight this war why do I have to fight this war I don’t want to fight this war but what happened was actually overall after hearing the Gita Arjuna understood that this is where I am meant to be right now and let me do my duty whole heartedly yes maybe in future for all of us maybe the renounced order will be more favourable maybe less engagement in the world will be more favourable but resenting where we are right now that is never favourable if our emotional energy is going in resentment then that is unfavourable for all of us so what we need to do is in bhakti there is both when we surrender to Krishna there is accepting ultimately my situation is under Krishna’s plan and there is aspiring both are required if there is only accepting I have a job which takes 16 hours work and I can’t do anything about it I don’t have time to chant, I don’t have time to practise bhakti if there is only accepting then there is passivity if there is only accepting without if there is only aspiring without accepting then that is passion that is rajoguna if there is only accepting that is tamas if there is only aspiring then there is rajas but when there is accepting plus aspiring so waiting means not passively waiting they are aspiring this is nishcha sorry so enthusiasm patience and faith so nishcha is so that we have faith Krishna knows my situation and in due course Krishna will arrange a more favourable situation for me to practise bhakti so let me accept the situation I am in let me aspire to serve him as much as I can and let me faithfully so when we have this attitude then our attitude overall will be anupul to bhakti and as our attitude is anupul bhakti we will move onwards in our journey toward Krishna so I will summarise what I discussed today broadly I discussed 3 points that first point was about the contrast this contrast is not so much between grahastha and sanyasa it is not grahastha versus actually it is not grahastha versus sanyasa as it is as it is karmakanda versus bhakti yoga so how can we know that because the other example here is that the same bhagavatam offers another contrast where apparently grahastha are considered to be higher than sanyasis and that is the past time of Ambarish Maharaj Durvasa Muni this is the contrast of Narada Muni and Dakshya Prajapati so here what is the contrast it is not grahastha vs sanyasi it is karmakanda vs bhakti yoga and for us rather than making a categorical mistake of equating grahasthas with karmakandis and sanyasis with bhaktas we understand that all of them are bhaktas everyone is taking shelter of Krishna and we focus on how somebody is taking shelter of Krishna and taking shelter of Krishna we accept what is anupul and we avoid that which is pratipun and what is pratipun is we avoid resentment why am I caught in this order we focus on accepting, aspiring and waiting utsahan ischaya dhairyat and that way from wherever we are we can take shelter of Krishna and move closer to him thank you very much Hare Krishna are there any questions or comments thank you so much Jyoti Mataji please go ahead Hare Krishna, Pranam Prabhuji Prabhuji, I have three questions one question is, you drew a line and you said that there is a lack of maturity when one has think of going from brahmachari ashram to sanyasa ashram one who does like that my question is this was the thinking of Daksha Prajapati I was saying that if somebody jumps from brahmachari to sanyasa then that is why he is criticising them but my point was if somebody is brahmachari and they feel that brahmachari life is can be used for their bhakti and that is how they want to continue so then that is something which is very different so his reasoning is true if somebody is not practising bhakti if somebody is practising bhakti then bhakti gives higher taste so this is actually Daksha’s thinking this is not necessarily the universal way of thinking but if somebody is practising bhakti as a brahmachari and they get the higher taste by practising bhakti then actually it is not that they are jumping from here to here basically what they are doing is they are simply from wherever they are they are taking shelter of Krishna everybody is taking shelter of Krishna ok my point is you mentioned one word like maturity is important so I want your explanation on what is the maturity because even if one follows the varna ashrama like say if he is very sincere and goes from brahmachari to vanaprastha then the sanyasi even he follows everything which is in sync with the instructions and there is a lack of maturity per se so then there is no point of saying that this is the way so that was my question what is your definition of maturity what is the explanation of that maturity because either of the way the maturity is important ok so what is maturity see in the case of bhakti there are maturity means three things you know there is if we consider say a person is here and say this is the material world now there can be there can be various ranges of emotions with respect to the material world even from a negative perspective there can be there can be frustration there can be frustration there can be aversion and there can be renunciation and these three are not the same thing frustration is one thing then this is aversion and this is renunciation and beyond this if we consider here is Krishna here there is attraction and absorption so what is the difference between these three things see frustration means there is the so broadly speaking look at this frustration means what that the desire is there but the ability is not there many of us know the sorry the desire is there when there is frustration the desire is there the ability is not there the resources are not there so somebody is fasting because they have a severe stomach upset they really want the feast outs around it they want to eat the feast but they can’t eat because their body can’t digest it that is not renunciation so frustration means desire is there but ability is not there in contrast when we talk about renunciation what happens is the desire is not there even if the ability may be there ability means many times now of course in India monks are becoming cool but in a few years before if somebody heard that a monk was that oh you are a well-educated person then why did you become a monk people used to think that oh you couldn’t achieve anything in life that’s why you became a monk that is a general idea so renunciation means one has the ability to enjoy the world but one had chosen not to enjoy it now aversion is something which is in between I will explain what it means but for us frustration is not the frustration is not the same as renunciation and frustration is not the qualification for renunciation so when we say maturity maturity means what in this context it is not frustration it is actual renunciation maturity means oh I am studying engineering the job competition is so difficult to try to find a good match is so difficult why get into all this I just renounce the world so one is renouncing not so much because one has any higher taste or higher purpose it’s just the difficulties with the world that’s why one is renouncing and that is not mature renunciation because what will happen is right now the ability is not there so one may feel that okay why should I enjoy let me just give it up but later on if somebody feels so now maybe I have the ability now maybe I can enjoy so one may have that problem now if you consider attraction to Krishna which leads to absorption attraction which leads to absorption what that means is it is not so much the desire is not there rather if you consider the desire for Krishna is so strong that as compared to that this desire for the material world and objects therein becomes insignificant so this becomes insignificant and this becomes predominant you can say dominant so maturity in this context means that one understands clearly that either this desire is very strong or at least one is cultivating this desire very strongly one is strongly practising the process by which to get this desire and as contrasted as aversion means what aversion means say if this person is over here there might be some attraction to Krishna but the key thing is there is the material world there is a lot of aversion from the material world aversion means what over here one wants to push the material world away this way you know that means I move away from it you go away from it not just some aversion but very very strong aversion so the prominent emotion in one’s consciousness is this material world is a terrible place now okay this world is a terrible place is okay as an emotion to have but what is much more important to that is not that the material world is dreadful but Krishna is wonderful Krishna consciousness we should focus on how Krishna is wonderful that should be the primary part in our consciousness not material world is dreadful this can be there but this is what is primary and this can be secondary so what happens in aversion this is what becomes primary and that is why there is a major problem so when we say maturity maturity means that one has gone beyond frustration one has gone beyond aversion and one is not only situated in renunciation but there is renunciation of the world and there is attraction toward Krishna so this is the healthy state to be now how one comes to that healthy state it is not automatically just by practising bhakti then one will come to that state no it takes time it takes diligent practise so in general it requires the cultivation of the higher taste okay to the point Prabhuji you said that there is a desire so the desire to we get attracted to Krishna so that desire is very strong so is that desire will dissolve the frustration and aversion in the practise is it so yes as our desire for Krishna will increase our desire for worldly things will decrease automatically no the frustration and aversion say a person is renounced and even after the renouncement say it is out of the frustration he has renounced and then he has some aversion also some frustration and aversion is always there and then the desire is going gradually it’s like initially the desire will dissolve initially our start to bhakti can be from frustration it can even be from aversion that is okay but eventually one has to come to the platform of attraction for Krishna initially we may start practising bhakti because we experience so much frustration in life maybe we have been betrayed in our relationship we experience heartbreaks that’s why I feel I want to take shelter of Krishna that is my primary relationship eventually if we do not develop attraction towards Krishna then what will happen is initially what happens is if we are interacting with the material world and we experience negativity in the material world then basically our focus is to go away from the material world and Krishna just happens to be one goal but eventually the journey towards Krishna is a long process and so initial impetus is fine that it may be frustration from the world the initial impetus is frustration that is okay but when frustration can initiate or can start our spiritual journey frustration can’t sustain our spiritual journey so if we consider the soul is here and the soul wants to go towards Krishna so frustration can start the journey but if you want to continue on then for that we need attraction we need to develop attraction towards Krishna only when we develop attraction then we can attain Krishna is that okay? yes Prabhuji my second question you have answered already so the third question is Prabhuji what is your inner strength what drives you because I feel there is a lot of inner strength to analyse everything we need a lot of inner strength to come into that practicality to understand this stuff so I will be grateful if you could tell what is your transformation or what is the drive that you have or what is the inner strength that you have I don’t know if I have inner strength but basically I feel I am simply using my Swabha in Krishna’s service Krishna has given me analytical nature and basically if we use what we have for Krishna’s service generally we talk only about these two things there is a lower taste there is a material lower taste and there is a spiritual higher taste and we think we have to go from here to here but actually this journey is a very very long journey to sustain us on this journey what we can say is that we can call this something like a devotional let’s put it this way a dharmic higher taste what do I mean by dharmic higher taste that we all have our dharma some of us have brahminical nature some of us have kshatriya nature some of us have vaishya nature and we don’t have to put ourselves in a particular nature we can just look at what are the things that we are naturally attracted to so if some of us are attracted to music then whenever we have some time we can direct our thoughts towards music and we can remember Krishna’s musical composition that will give us a higher taste so we have to find out this dharmic higher taste which will sustain us from the journey from the lower taste to the higher taste so for me it is analysis for others it may be ditty worship for others it may be singing so I think we have to find out according to our sabhava what is it that is my analysis spiritual or is it simply intellectual well I would say it is mostly intellectual but it is intellectual used for a spiritual purpose so like that all of us have a particular nature and we use that nature in Krishna’s service Prabhuji how do you introspect about it well I think for me mainly it is mainly through writing because I have been writing everyday on the Gita daily so for writing I have to think very deeply that is how I have been able to do it mostly thank you so much thank you so much Jyoti Mataji we have so many devotees waiting on the line so please ask one question for devotees so that it is easy for others also to follow up Ramangi Radhika Mataji please Hare Krishna Prabhuji thank you for the wonderful enlightening class Prabhuji I have a question on renunciation from Bhagavad Gita Prabhuji in text 9 the renunciation in the mode of goodness and text 23rd karma action in the mode of goodness we see that the performer performs the action without attachment to the work or without attachment to the fruit itself so my question is this appears to be a karma then there is no reaction no attachment to the fruit then how we can differentiate a person on the transcendental platform and a person in the mode of goodness both appear to be doing the same kind of action which has no reaction see the difference between the mode of goodness and transcendence is what is one attracted to a person sattva guna sattva basically their primary virtue is equanimity they understand that in the material world things come and go, problems come and go, successes come and go they are not really the big thing and in shuddha sattva it is Krishna who is the primary reality so in transcendental platform not just one is not attached to the fruits of one s work actually one is attached to Krishna so 926-27 is this level where Krishna talks about how so that is at the bhakti level so we should be equipoised and detached from the results but bhakti is defined not so much but detached from the results as attachment to Krishna then destination of a person in the mode of goodness is going to the great sages planets of great sages so the activity they do is not a pious activity right in the sense pious and impious are done in the mode of passion is that a correct understanding yes and no see in piety also there are grades we cannot have a mayavadi understanding of piety so piety at one level can be immediate results that means that I do some vrata and then after 3 months I expect some results then piety can be next life results in swarga actually we can have somewhere in between here this next life in swarga can be slightly above and then beyond that or other we can have here several decades like we had we have they are practising brahmacharya for not just a few months but several years and then there can be next life the destination above swarga so here if you consider there are many people who may love reciting or some other sacred chants just because they feel so good they are not really devoted to Krishna there are many people who like Bharatanatyam because it is such a nice artistic form so that is sattvic happiness like that in Tappaloka it is piety it is not exactly bhakti but it is a very high level of piety where one does not want gross sense gratification even in the heavens one wants just a subtle gratification of the mind and intellect that the mind is peaceful the intellect is contemplating higher truths Krishna says sattva guna the attachment is to so one feels very so in sattva the mind is peaceful so there is there is no agitation of the mind in sattva guna so one does not feel restless, one does not feel any craving for desire so it is peaceful and the intelligence is clear so there is jnana and there is a satisfaction in knowledge Prabhupada said this can also be golden shackles because one feels oh I am so peaceful just see how all these people are running around here and there and then the intelligence is clear means I have so much more knowledge than everyone else I am wiser than everyone else so the sages do not have Krishna centredness may not have and that is why that is why it is not exactly the same it is not pure spiritual it is pointing towards the spiritual ok all glories to shila prabhupada thank you for wonderful class can you hear me so my question was the pitru loka you explained in that chart I just wanted to understand whose destination is pitru loka who are the people who go there because I thought birth and death cycle is that is what I explained that is what I was explaining normally if a student goes to college say a student goes to college and if they are going to college the natural result is graduation now some students may just fail or drop out and some students may graduate with honours so within the if you consider vedic university if somebody goes to university normal expectation is graduation so you study decently enough and you graduate from it so like that so if you consider vedic university then what happens is the normal result if somebody lives a life of pieties that is they will go to pitru loka so those who live a life of average punya and that is what is generally expected of our ancestors now some ancestors may live a life of extraordinary punya so graduation with honours that is like going to swarga and failing or dropping out that is like going to naraka that is a failure completely so who goes to? it is not that all ancestors go to pitru loka it is generally expected that our ancestors would have lived pietiesly and therefore they would go to pitru loka but if the ancestors have been very pieties then they would go higher to swarga yes sukhar krishna prabhu Hare krishna your class are always very absorbing prabhu i just want to reconsider i think one of the bhakti sangha only dhruvasa muni though he had done this aparat but it is a pastime by krishna that krishna had given a boon to ambarish maharaj because of his great bhakti that sudarshan chakra will be always with him every time he protect him but just to remind him to reconsider he sent dhruvasa muni to go and do all these things and then sudarshan chakra he changed it and finally proved that students chakra could protect him again Durvasa Mani. The same way Bhishma also though he was in the Adharma side, it was Krishna’s plan that he will remain with them and ultimately he will end to see that the Dharma is established and when Yudhishthira and all going to meet him, he’s never bothered about his body.
He’s just telling how are you, you have been suffering so much. That’s why Krishna gave him darshan by leaving his body. So, I want to just see your reconfirmation that these are all past times and it’s not that Durvasa Mani was bad and he was Jnani and he wanted to just check.
So, this was told in Bhakti Sangh only one of the, I think it was Gauharbhadesh only. So, I just wanted since you are also in the same thing, I want to know and also Arjuna, they told that he’s a pure devotee. He doesn’t have any, one more thing, he has all the pure devotees, he has no ignorance.
Let’s take one thing at a time. You know, we can go to 100 examples like that. Let’s take a principle.
See, in general, scripture can be studied at various levels. There is at the transcendental level, there is at the ethical level, there is a literal level and then there is also in between a metaphorical level. So, literal level is just hear the stories.
There’s no need for analysis. It’s like the traditional, the Ramayana, like we have Gita Parayan, we have Ramayana Parayan, just recite the Ramayana, that’s all. Just hear it, you’ll be purified by it.
No need to analyse anything, no need to draw any lessons from it. This could be literal level. So, you could say at the literal level, the primary result is there’s entertainment.
There can be much more, but there’s entertainment. Now, at the transcendental level, there is ecstasy. A devotee is seeing, this is Krishna, everything is Krishna’s arrangement, simply relish Krishna’s pastimes.
Now, at a metaphorical level, sometimes in our tradition, metaphorical is not emphasised so much. But Prabhupada talks about, for example, the six children who were in Devaki’s womb before Krishna and Balram appeared, they represent the six anarthas. That’s something metaphoric.
Now, the ethical is where we draw moral lessons. And we should not confuse the ethical and the transcendental. We have to be clear which framework we’re analysing from.
So, if we start saying that everybody is transcendental, then if we say all the people who were there at Mahaprabhu’s times, they were all great souls. Everybody at that time was a great soul. Then that means they’re already pavan.
Mahaprabhu is not patit pavan, he’s simply pavan pavan. So, no, some of Mahaprabhu’s associates were intimate eternal associates. Many others were fortunate that they happened to be there.
And they were elevated by Mahaprabhu. So generally, if we are looking at the ethical level, don’t mix the transcendental over there. So, now, can the same pastime be read at two different levels? Yes.
If we consider the past time of Arjuna, from one, if you’re looking at a transcendental level, then Arjuna is, Arjuna’s illusion is by Krishna’s arrangement. That is the point. But if you’re looking at the ethical level, then we can draw various lessons.
Prabhupada, for example, from the first chapter, he says that Arjuna is so contemplative, he’s so thoughtful, he’s not rushing into action. And this shows that he’s qualified for gaining knowledge. And then suddenly, as soon as the second chapter starts, Prabhupada seems to suddenly change and he says, Arjuna is so attached, he’s crying, this sign of ignorance.
He says, what’s happening? Why sudden change? So the point is, at ethical level, the focus is not so much on judging the character as a learning for ourselves. Not so much on the focus is not on who is right. But it is on what is right, or what is right means, what is there for me to learn over here.
So this is when we have this focus, then what happens is, so from the first chapter, Prabhupada is drawing the lesson that what is right means, what can I learn? So from this, so when we have this focus, then the result is that we essentially learn, move toward Krishna by learning what is important for us. So then from this perspective, we can say that, yes, say, for example, Arjuna was doing some reasoning in the first chapter. And that his reasoning was good.
But his reasoning was not long term enough, it was not farsighted enough. And in that sense, it was inadequate. So we can draw different lessons in the Chitraketu pastime.
For example, Prabhupada draws lessons from both perspectives. He says Chitraketu should not have been laughing. He says that, you know, when the great sages were not laughing, why was Chitraketu laughing? But then after that Prabhupada says that, also he says that, what is that, he says, Parvati Devi, she should not have cursed Chitraketu, you know.
If none of the, if Lord Shiva himself did not take offence, if none of the sages took offence, why did Parvati Devi have to take offence at that? So the point is from both sides, you know, we, if we are seeing our seniors, we should not be hasty in judging them. And if we are seniors, then we should not be hasty in condemning our juniors for some inappropriate behaviour. So we can draw both lessons.
So when we are drawing, when we are analysing at an ethical level, if you bring in the transcendental, then everything becomes meaningless. And there’s no use of any analysis. Yes, Arjuna’s illusion could have been by Krishna’s arrangement.
But what was the thought process of Arjuna by which he went into illusion? And how can we avoid that thought process? If we keep that in mind, then there is something for us to learn. Okay. Because the way Krishna has killed all the Kauravas in the 13th chapter, he’s telling, no, already they’re dead.
I just wanted you to get the yes, that’s why I’m doing the whole thing. And then after showing the Vishwaroopadarshan, no, everybody was going inside his mouth. So that means it was all Krishna wanted the dharma to be established.
He only did it, but he just made Arjuna to play the game. That’s what we can understand at the end of the chapter that Krishna will make his devotees to get the yes, but Krishna is only doing everything. He only is punishing the people who disrobed the Yantra.
I’m personally uncomfortable with emphasising Krishna is doing everything. Because that almost takes away the room for free will of the individual. A devotee always has free will.
A devotee with free will serves Krishna. So yes, it was Krishna’s arrangement, but Krishna could have fulfilled his arrangement in another way also. Krishna told Arjuna, if you do not fight, still the Kauravas will be killed, but without you as an instrument.
So, so Krishna’s arrangement is what is going to work always, but whether a particular soul will act in a particular way or not, that is up to that soul. And that is why we want to focus on what we can learn from various actions. Since you are very analytical, that’s why I asked this question, because you go so deep into it, and that’s why I wanted to re-clarify and find out, you know, if it’s okay or not.
That’s why. Yes. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much, Prabhuji. Wonderful. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Radhika Mataji. Do you have a question? Aditya already asked you. Okay, you asked a question, you didn’t.
Prabhuji, I have one. Okay, please, last question. I have one more question.
Okay, last question, then we’ll stop. Prabhuji, on the path of Nishkama Karma Yoga, the performer will be performing according to 2.47. And so, then if he is not able to achieve attraction to Krishna, so the understanding is that still he will be in the mode of goodness, he will not be able to transcend the mode. That is my question, actually, when I was asking about renunciation in the 18th chapter.
So, what makes him transcend the mode? What inspires him to transcend the modes? Well, it is the practise of bhakti, it is the association of devotees. It is basically, if there is no, if you can say, devotion, it involves various things. There is attraction to Krishna, or there is, there is desire, or we could say, you have to use the language you use here, aspiration for attraction to Krishna.
At least one wants that attraction, even if there is not there. And at the least is appreciation for those who are attracted to Krishna, that is Ajnatsukruti. So, all these are broadly within the range of bhakti.
So, somebody sattva guna, how will they move towards shuddha sattva? It is either by appreciating devotees, or by practising bhajan. So, this is basically appreciation for those who are, this is sadhu sangha bhajana kriya, you know, shuddha sadhu sangha, those stages come up over here, adho shuddha, it leads to sadhu sangha. And then aspiration means, one is actually doing bhajana kriya and going towards Anantali Urupti, and from here onwards, Urupti asakti, how they start coming up.
This is the stage of, primarily of bhajana kriya. So, that is how one will gradually move towards attraction towards Krishna. So, otherwise nishkama karma yogi cannot transcend the modes, right, Swamiji, if he is not developing any kind of association or attraction.
Nishkama karma yogi, they can attain Brahman, but they won’t attain bhakti. If they have no kaam for this world, then they will go to Brahman. There cannot be absolutely no attachment to Krishna, even then they will be transcending the modes and going to Brahmajyoti Pravachy.
Some part of bhakti should be there even for nishkama karma yogi, like you said in Bhagavatam, Okay. See, this is a complex question now. Basically, there is, Swamiji, we have to extend that bhakti is required in all paths, but it’s like there’s a difference between bhakti yoga and other yogas, with bhakti in them.
The difference is that, that in bhakti yoga, Krishna is both the means and the goal. Whereas, in these cases, Krishna or bhakti is the means and Brahman is the goal. See, bhakti is required everywhere.
We see in the 11th canto, Maharaj Pururava, he actually performed a yajna to Vishnu. And when Vishnu came, what did he say? I want Urvashi. So for him, bhakti was a means.
But what was happening was the goal was not Krishna, the goal was an Apsara. So in karma yoga also there will be some bhakti, because they have some conception of, it’s not that they are atheistic, obviously, but Krishna is not their primary goal. So they have some devotion.
That way, if you see, even what we call as Mayavadis, they also practise bhakti to some extent. They will also do kirtans, they will also do bhajans. But they say, yeah, ultimately, we want to attain Brahman.
So it’s what is the goal that is important. Yes, thank you. So the Pitraloka, those who go to Pitraloka, when their piety ends, do they also come to earth? Yes, that is true.
All higher planets are like that. When the punya ends, they come back over here. Thank you very much.