Lord Shivas Position And Disposition

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Yon Prem Anand Dev Hare Krishna Thank you all for coming today.
And we’ll discuss today, based on this verse from the Bhagavad Gita, I hope it’s visible, 7.22. We’ll try to understand the Vedic conception of divinity and how Lord Shiva has a very significant role within that. I’ll explain the meaning of this verse and then we’ll recite it a few times. Sa Taya Shantaya Muktas Let’s go back to the previous verse first.
So, Yo-Yo Yo-Yo means whichever, whenever. Yo-Yo Yam-Yam whoever. Tanu Bhaktaha Tanu is form.
Bhakta is worship with devotion. Yo-Yo Yam-Yam Tanu Bhaktaha So, with faith, Shantaya Archi means worship. Somebody desires to worship a particular form with faith.
this is one of the verses which illustrates the way the Vedic conception of divinity works. Recently, a friend sent me a cartoon of how many people who are outside the Vedic path find it extremely difficult to understand the concept of divinity. And it is not just they find it difficult, those who are in that path also find it difficult.
There’s an American and Indian talking. The American is asking the Indian, why do you people worship so many gods? And the Indian replies, we believe in keeping backups. So, now, that’s not at all the answer.
But, that can seem to be a reasonable answer. Oh, you know like, you have data backups. Here, this place, this place.
So, this God, that God, that God, all of these are backups. So, I have many backup plans. But, it’s not a backup plan, it’s a progressive plan, what Krishna is telling over here.
So, let’s see what Krishna is saying. This particular series of verses from 7.20 to 23, Krishna essentially says that, if you want to worship a particular form, I’m not going to condemn you. Rather, I’m going to facilitate you in that.
And how do I facilitate you? So, if we consider, so, this is Krishna. And say, here there is a human being. Now, the best thing Krishna recommends is, we worship him, and he grants, we do bhakti, and he gives us Krupa.
And that’s what he concludes in the end of the verse, Just worship him. However, Krishna himself knows, that not everybody can do this. And therefore, Krishna provides multiple ways, for people to stay on the spiritual path.
So, basically, I’ll come to Lord Shiva later. First, I’ll just talk about the specific understanding of divinity. So, I’m going to talk about our session in three broad parts.
First part will be the conception. The conception of divinity. Then, the second part will be the compassion.
The compassion, this is conception of divinity, in general. The compassion of Lord Shiva. And the third part, I’ll be talking about connection.
So, what is the mode of the connection, that is there between us and the Lord, or between us and Lord Shiva. We will discuss this part, with an example of a story from the Mahabharata. So, let’s move on.
First, the conception of divinity. So, the first part may be a little technical. So, just bear with me about it.
But it will answer quite a few questions which you may have, or it will equip you to answer questions that others may ask. So, basically, in the western religious imagination, or western religious conceptions, there were broadly two ideas of divinity. The conceptions of divinity.
So, one is polytheism. Now, when the Abrahamic religion started, and Judaism started, and then eventually Christianity came, and Islam came, before that, there was the Greco-Roman civilisation. And they were polytheistic.
There were many different gods over there. And then, when the Abrahamic religions came, they are very proudly monotheistic. So, they said that we believe in one god.
And they considered the idea of polytheistic universe to be very primitive. There are multiple gods and they are constantly fighting among each other, fighting for turf. And humans get sometimes caught in the crossfire between the fighting among the gods.
It’s a chaotic vision of the universe. So, they declared that there is one true god. That is the god that we worship.
And all other gods are false gods. That is the idea of monotheism. One true god and all others are false gods.
Now, when they came to India, at the time of colonisation, then when they saw India, this one western religious observer said, Hinduism is not a religion. It is a museum of religions. So, Oscar Wilde said sarcastically, when it comes to religion, Hinduism is the only millionaire.
What he meant by that, there are millions of gods over there. So, they just immediately dismissed this as polytheism. And they thought of it as primitive.
But then, some of them, as they delved into the philosophy, they realised that there is a lot of depth of thought. There is philosophy in the Greco-Roman tradition also. But in the Greco-Roman tradition, philosophy and religion were very divorced.
For example, Plato, Aristotle, all of them were, Socrates, they were big thinkers. But they were not primarily worshippers. So, religion and philosophy were divorced over there.
In the Vedic tradition, religion and philosophy were very integral. So, they actually started exploring a little bit more. But, most of them found it very difficult to understand.
Because what they found is that in India, people may worship one god, but they also respect many other gods. In fact, they go and worship many gods. And when they go and worship different gods, it’s almost as if they are worshipping that god as if that god is supreme.
So, they just couldn’t figure it out. The problem is that this is a very limiting polarisation. That there is one god or there are many gods.
There is monotheism or polytheism. The Vedic conception of divinity doesn’t fit into this categorisation. There is there is ultimately one reality.
But, that one reality manifests in many forms at many levels. So, what that means is the Vedic conception of divinity is actually polymorphic multi-level monotheism. Polymorphic means that there are many forms.
Advaitam is one truth. Achyutamanadin Anantarupam. Not one form, but many forms.
So, it’s monotheism, but it’s polymorphic. And so, we have Krishna, Vishnu, Ram, Narasimha. You see, they are polymorphic.
But what about others? So, in one sense, the others are also considered worship abilities. So, that’s multi-level monotheism. Polymorphic multi-level monotheism.
I’ll explain what this means. So, in the Abrahamic traditions, there is the idea that God is so kind. Have any of you heard of the story of the prodigal son? Have any of you heard of this story? You may have heard the story, but you may not have heard the term about the story.
So, basically, there is the story that there is a landlord, very wealthy person, and he has two sons. His younger son is quite rebellious. And he demands, when he comes of age, give me my inheritance.
I want to live on my own. He says, no, whatever you want, I can give you here itself. Don’t go away from me.
No, give me my inheritance. He insists. The father gives the inheritance and goes away.
Now, when he goes away, the son goes away. He has a lot of money, so he attracts a lot of so-called friends. And then, he squanders all the money.
And then he is left desolate in the city. He is abandoned. He is struggling to eke out a livelihood.
He is struggling and suffering and suffers for a long time. Finally, he decides, let me go back to God. He is working with a radical boss.
He thinks, even if my father is angry with me and my father doesn’t accept me back, I will live with my father as a worker, as a labourer. My father treats his workers better than the way I am being treated over there. And when he goes back home, his father is delighted to see him.
Father welcomes him back. And it is a celebration. My son, who was like dead, has now come back home.
So, this story is said to show the love of God. That although we may turn away from him, we may abandon him, he is always ready to welcome us. Now, there is definitely the love of God being shown in this story.
However, the Vedic conception says that God’s love is much more. So, the prodigal son story says that God is waiting for us. But what the Vedic tradition says is that God is not just waiting for us, plus he is, God is working for us.
Working for us means he is working to get us back. And how does he do that? See, the child has quarrelled with the father. So, the son may not want to come back to the father.
So, when the son goes away from the father, the father sends his representative, who might be the other subordinate landlord. And he sees the son is suffering. If you are suffering, then do you come and work for me? So, what happens by this is that he says, the father is like a king or the landlord is almost like a king.
So, the son has gone over here. The son is outside the kingdom and, say, is serving some landlord over here. Now, the father sends his minister and the minister comes back over here.
So, now what happens is the father within his kingdom gives the minister some jurisdiction. So, now the son has not yet come back to the palace. Has not yet come back to the father.
Excuse me. So, the father not only gets the son to come back but the father sends his representatives you come back. And you be within my kingdom.
You are not within my home right now. That’s okay. At least within my kingdom.
And when he sends the minister to act as a mediator between him and the son, at that time, the father may empower the minister. You know, give him a big elephant. Help him to make a show of lot of wealth and power.
And the son says, oh, this person seems to be a very big person. And when he sees how big this person is, he says, okay, I won’t come. And then, when that son comes and works for the father, for this minister, the minister gives the son a handsome salary.
And what is happening over here is, the son says, hey, this is a great deal. I want to work over here. But, in this case, what has happened is, the king is here on top, the son is here and the minister is here.
So now, at one level, there is an interaction happening between the minister and the king. But actually speaking, the son may do some work, the prince may do some work and he gets a reward. But actually speaking, it is the king who is giving the wealth to the minister, so that he can pay the son.
And indirectly, the king is giving the inspiration, the motivation to the son. Okay, you work with him. So, this is the system of the worship of the devatas.
When we turn away from Krishna, when we are not really turning towards Krishna, Krishna says, I arrange for the devatas. So, it is I as the Paramatma. So, if we take the same system above over here, here is this Krishna, here there is the Jeeva, here there is the devata.
So, there is the whole system of devata puja that is happening over here. So, there is worship and there is a reward. But, mayaiva itan, the power to reward is given by the Krishna to the devata.
And in this verse, Krishna is saying, the faith to worship. I give them the faith. So, why does Krishna do this? Because, Krishna’s concern is not his glorification.
It is our elevation. Even if you think that minister is a big person, even if you think that minister is as good as me, even if you think that minister is better than me, I don’t care. What I care is that you come at least within my kingdom.
You come at least close to me. So, this is the whole system of devata worship. It actually shows Krishna’s selflessness.
His selflessness is, his concern is not my glorification. You have to remember I am supreme. Don’t forget that.
That’s not his primary purpose is. It’s our elevation. So, the system of the worship of the devata shows how subtle and sophisticated the conception of divinity is within the Vedic tradition.
And that’s why there are multiple devata. I just think a king may have multiple ministers. And those ministers can gel with different of the children of the son, parent who might have the king might have gone away.
So, Krishna is a yo yo yam yam tanum bhakta. Whichever form you want to worship, I will make your feet strong. Now, of course, Krishna does say later, alpamey And if you don’t understand that the power to reward is coming from me.
At one level, it is good that the king, that the prince comes back to the kingdom even if it’s with the prince. But eventually, what would you want? You come back home. You come back to me.
So, there is a progression. So, imagine there is a father and there are two sons. So, one of them gets very good, say, 80% marks.
Another one scrapes through with 40% marks. And now, today, results have come and both of them have got 60%. Now, for the son who has come from 40% up, the father will say, well done.
But for somebody who has come down from 80% to 60%, he will say, what have you done? Isn’t it? So, now, for the first son, he will say, shabash. Second son, he will say, badbash. So, now, the second son will say, what is this? I got the same marks as that person.
Why are you criticising me and praising him? The point is, you are at a different level. So, for somebody who is an atheist or a materialist, for them, if that person becomes a worshipper of devata, that person becomes a devata pujak, that is coming from 40% to 60%. But somebody who is a Krishna devotee, somebody who is worshipping Krishna, and that person gives up the worship of Krishna and starts worshipping other devatas, then that is going down from 80% to 60%.
So, this is what Krishna calls as alpmedhasam. In the same series of verses, alpmedhasam means less intelligent. They have medhasam, but less intelligent.
So, when Krishna reproaches it at one level, but then, he also says, later in the 17th chapter, 17.4, he says, yajante sattvika devan. That those who worship the devatas are the sattvikas. That means, he is appreciating, they have come back within my kingdom.
They have come back home. So, Prabhupada, when his disciples were in, there was a disciple in Kolkata, Kolkata has a huge tradition of durga puja. So, Prabhupada has asked, Prabhupada, these Christians who worship God, and there are these people who worship Durga Devi, who are better? Now, Prabhupada said, those who are worshippers of Durga are in the house of the Vedas.
So, everybody will have different obstacles. So, somebody who is worshipping God in the Christian tradition and other traditions, there is one ultimate reality. But, they have certain cultural barriers, conceptual barriers, but they are not going to comprehend the conceptualisation.
So, somebody is worshipping Durga, somebody is worshipping Shiva, they are in the house of the Vedas. So, now, for us, this is the conception that I talked about. Now, for us, I will be addressing three different questions.
So, if somebody is at the 40% level, somebody is at the 80% level, how do we talk with them and talk about Lord Shiva or say, okay, she is like a Shivaratri when we are worshipping, when Lord Shiva is worshipped. Somebody is at the 40% level. Then we will talk about somebody at the 60% level.
How do we deal with them? And then we will talk about those who are at the 80% level. And how do we see this worship? Okay? So, these are three broad parts we will discuss in the remaining part of the session. So, now, in one sense, Krishna’s purpose is to elevate everyone.
So, from 40%, if somebody can come to 80%, that’s great. Somebody who is a materialist and they become a Krishna devotee, that’s excellent. But if they are somehow not able to become a Krishna devotee, Krishna doesn’t say, it’s my way or the highway.
You don’t worship me, you are going to go to hell. That’s not Krishna’s way. You can’t worship me.
There are other stepping stones which you can take for it. So, our purpose should never be to break down the stepping stones that Krishna himself has built. That means, we have to come from here to the spiritual level.
One is, you could say, the elevator kind of way. That’s a rapid way. And the other is a gradual way, which is like a staircase way.
So, if somebody can take the elevator and rise up faster, they can directly worship Krishna, that’s great. But if they can’t, for whatever reason, then let them take the elevator. That doesn’t mean we have to recommend worship of the devatas.
We have to understand that there is an inclusive system over there. Somebody is worshipping Lord Shiva, for example. Now, we can say, no, no, Lord Shiva is not supreme, Krishna is supreme.
And they have heard from other sources, Lord Shiva is supreme. And they read the Shiva Puran like this, and they read that. See, the Vedic tradition is such that when one devata is glorified, that devata will be glorified because Krishna’s purpose is to give people shraddha in that devata.
So, in Shiva Puran, Lord Shiva will be glorified. And, no, no, Shiva is not supreme, Krishna is supreme. And then, that person becomes confused, you know, is Shiva supreme or Krishna supreme? This whole religion business seems to be very confusing.
Better I’ll give up religion, I’ll become atheistic. And what have we done is, instead of raising that person from 60% to 80%, what have we done? We have pushed them down from 60% to 40%. So, our purpose should never be to disrupt anyone.
na buddhi-bhedam janayet ajnanam karma-sanginam That, even if somebody is not fully evolved in their understanding, Krishna says don’t disturb their minds. Don’t disrupt their conception so much that they go down further. See how they can be elevated.
So, the Vedic idea is, it is Krishna who is giving people shraddha. Somebody is worshipping Lord Shiva, it is Krishna from within their heart that is giving them the shraddha to worship Lord Shiva. Now, if we can elevate the shraddha higher, that’s good.
But we should not disrupt the shraddha, the faith that Krishna has given. That’s an important thing. This, especially the mood of compassion of Lord Shiva, is illustrated in many pastimes and especially in the Amrit Manthan Leela.
Lord Shiva embodies the compassion of the divine in various ways. Lord Shiva dresses in, Lord Shiva his appearance is in a particular way. He lives in crematoriums, he drinks bhang, he has ashes on his body.
So, the idea is that Lord Shiva’s appearance can seem to be like the appearance of a person in Tamoguna. People in Tamoguna, people who live in a very ignorant way of life, they may drink, they may want to go to dark places like the crematorium and they may like to decorate themselves with weird kind of substances like ashes. And, now what Lord Shiva does is, by his appearance, he appears to be like that.
And by that, he attracts those people. Like the minister wants to attract a particular prince to come back. The minister’s behaviour and conduct is completely different from all the princes’.
The prince will never want to connect with the minister. So, it is Lord Shiva, by the Lord’s, by Krishna’s divine plan, that he has a particular demeanour. He functions in a particular way.
So, when you talk about Lord Shiva’s compassion, we can see it at one level in a way which is very easily admirable. That is, in the churning ocean. The churning pastime.
That poison has come out and he is drinking all the poison. Just to save all living beings. Most of you know the story.
I won’t go into the story in detail over here. But the principle is there are times when Lord Shiva’s compassion is very easy to perceive. But there are times when his compassion can be incomprehensible.
That is, if you look at his appearance, his appearance can seem to be tamasic. He is not affected by tamoguna. He is the controller of tamoguna.
He is not in the control of tamoguna. But he can appear like that. Now, when he appears like that, by that he attracts people who are in tamoguna.
And gradually he gives them a facility to be elevated. So, Lord Shiva manifests that compassionate aspect of the Divine. Reaching out to people who would otherwise have no inclination or opportunity to connect with the Lord.
Or connect with any kind of higher reality. Now, there is an important caveat over here. It’s important to understand that the form and demeanour of Lord Shiva is such that even tamasic people can become attracted to him.
But that does not mean that all the people who worship Lord Shiva are tamasic. The two are very different things. There are many different people who worship Lord Shiva and there can be many great saints who have a very high level of selflessness.
The form is orientated for particular people. But that doesn’t mean only those kind of people are attracted. So, many, many people are attracted to the worship of Lord Shiva and many of them may be themselves in Rajoguna or Satoguna.
Whatever. But that form is orientated towards particular people. That is his compassion.
And now Lord Shiva performs many different pastimes and he has many different roles. But this compassionate aspect comes with a caveat. Caveat is a warning that Lord Shiva is known as Ashutosh.
Ashutosh means he is, and you know, he is easily pleased. So the complexity of worship of Lord Shiva, that’s what I’ll talk about and then we’ll open for questions. In the Mahabharata, there is a very disturbing incident that happens towards the end of the Mahabharata war.
It’s on not the 18th day but the 18th night of the Kurukshetra war. So, Duryodhana has become wounded and he is almost on the verge of death. Ashwatthama sees how he has been wounded and then Ashwatthama decides that I am going to take revenge.
When he hears about how he was attacked below the belt as they say on his thigh, he feels this is blatantly unfair and in his mind still that Arjuna and the Pandavas arranged to kill Drona by lying that particular incident is still burning within his heart. Now what happens is Duryodhana does a subtle manipulation over there. Krishna, Arjuna, Yudhishthira their plan was just to tell Duryodhana that Ashwatthama is killed and then Drona will become so dejected that he will lower his weapons.
Once he lowers his weapons, then he will be arrested and he will be kept in house arrest till the war is won. But at that time when Drona lowers his weapons, Dhrishtadyumna in a fit of rage rushes forward and catches Drona by his hair and drags him off and lops off his hair. As he is rushing towards Drona, warriors from both sides scream at Dhrishtadyumna Stop! Do not do this! Not only is it horrendous to kill a warrior who is unarmed but that is just your guru.
How can you do that? But Dhrishtadyumna is just blinded by rage. He has been trying desperately. He is supposed to be born to have killed Dronacharya and he has come nowhere near killing Dronacharya.
And on that very day, the father who had performed yajna to have his birth to kill Dronacharya, he had seen Dronacharya kill Drupada in front of his eyes. So he was also totally frustrated by his utter failure to do what was supposed to be his destiny. And that’s why in a fit of rage he lopped off Dronacharya’s head.
When this happened, Arjuna was enraged and Arjuna wanted to attack Dhrishtadyumna. And Satyaki came by Arjuna’s side Bhima came by Dhrishtadyumna’s side and then Yudhishtira and Krishna mediated. There was a severe conflict over there.
The point is that Dronacharya’s killing was not a cold-blooded conspiracy. But Ashwatthama was told by Duryodhana that the Pandavas conspired to kill your father in cold blood. So there is a big difference.
Dronacharya’s killing was a hot-headed individual act. It was not a cold-blooded collective conspiracy. Have the differences clear between the two? It is one person’s hot-headed act.
But Duryodhana coloured it in such a way that Ashwatthama thought that it is a cold-blooded collective conspiracy. And he felt they have to be punished. They killed my father unfairly and now they killed Duryodhana unfairly.
So he was thinking what else to do. He had the Narayanastra which had been foiled. He had the Bhargavaastra which had been foiled.
He still didn’t know what to do. So he went and that night he laid down. Now he had only two warriors with him, Kripa and Kritavarman.
And then as he was lying down and sleeping, he was trying to sleep but not able to sleep. And he looked up and he saw a strong hunter bird, not a very hunter bird basically came not a bird hunter but a bird which was like a predator. It came and it just started pouncing on the nests which were there in the tree and had pierced all the babies that were there pecking them and killing them and the parents came and tried to stop them and with his wings he just smashed away the parents and just killed all the babies.
As he was watching this, he got an idea. Maybe this is nature teaching me. This is how I should kill the farmers.
That while they are sleeping I should be killing them. My father was also sleeping. He was meditating.
He was not conscious and they killed him. That is how I will kill them. And then he shook Kritavarman and Kripa awake.
Both of them were aghast. Kripacharya said, oh son, oh child what you are speaking is something which should not even be contemplated. It is utterly against the codes of Kshatriya world.
He says wait till tomorrow we will fight to the best of our ability and if destiny is with us we will win. He said no, I am not going to wait. He says this is destiny telling me that this is what I should be doing.
If you want to come with me, come. And he got on the chariot and went. Now when he was going on the chariot towards the Pandava camp suddenly he saw a ferocious looking being.
Somebody who seemed to be like a hunter. Very strong. Blocking his way.
And he saw that being little taken aback. He was moving fast on the chariot and that being didn’t even move. That being seemed to be effulgent.
Who is this? Whoever it is who is coming in my way I will destroy them. So he took his bow and arrows and started shooting. And he shot and the arrows just went into that body and disappeared.
And that being just seemed to be standing. He took stronger and stronger arrows. And nothing seemed to happen.
And then as he was looking suddenly it struck him this is Mahadev. And he started thinking Mahadev, Mahadev Lord Shiva, he is angry with me that I contemplated such a dastardly deed. And that’s why he has come to punish me.
And the god of his chariot was really alarmed. And he fell down and offered prostrated obeisances to Lord Shiva. And then Lord Shiva waited for him and said O Ashwathama the time for the destruction of the warriors assembled at the war at Kurukshetra has come.
Here is the sword. Ashwathama was shaken. He is confused.
And then Lord Shiva is not angry with me. Is he supporting my plan? And just couldn’t comprehend anything. Lord Shiva was handing him that sword.
He took that sword. And then as soon as that sword touched his body he felt like an incredible surge of power rushing through his entire body. He had never felt such power.
And he was just trying to come to grips with that sense of power and looked. And that being in front of him had disappeared. Sorry about this.
And he concluded that Lord Shiva that my plan is right. In fact my plan is so right that Lord Shiva has blessed him. And then he marched forward.
Now while all this was happening, Krupa and Kutavarman came behind him. It is good that you have come. He decided not to tell them anything about what Lord Shiva had.
That interaction. He was still a little confused. What actually happened? Because in one part he also knew that what I am doing is terrible.
But he said, Oh Lord Shiva has blessed me. Then he went forward. He sneaked into the Pandava camp.
And he went to the tent where the Shuddamna was living. He pounded crushed Shuddamna with his feet. And crushed him to death.
Before that he went to the Pandavas. Along that he went to Pandavas. What he thought of the Pandavas, they lopped off their heads.
As he was kicking Shuddamna, Shuddamna woke up and he saw his Ashwatthama. He tried to shake him off. But Ashwatthama seemed to have a power that he could not even match.
He said, No. He said, Oh Ashwatthama if you want to kill me, kill me like a Kshatriya with a weapon. He said, You are not a Kshatriya.
You killed my father like an animal. I will kill you like an animal. And he pounded him with his feet, crushing his skull till it just became a shapeless pulp.
And he died. Now after that he took his sword. By this time when Shuddamna was screaming, other warriors woke up.
They started coming out and started lopping off everyone’s heads. Sorry about that. So anyway, he killed everyone.
The few who tried to flee, Krupa and Krutavan picked them off. And then the whole Pandava army camp had become a graveyard. And as Ashwatthama came out of the Pandava camp, suddenly he felt as if the entire power just left him.
He was confused. Still, while they were fighting, he was convinced this is what is to be done. Then afterwards, when Arjuna came to chase him and he fled, at that time he came to Vyasadeva.
He was taught to use a Brahmastra. Vyasadeva told him, don’t use a Brahmastra. And then Vyasadeva told him it’s a whole big incident.
So he said, he told him what he had done. He said, how could you have done this? What were you thinking? He said, Lord Shiva blessed me. He said, did Lord Shiva bless you or did Lord Shiva text you? He said that the key principle over here is that if we want to do something very strongly, we will or we may get the power to do that.
See, the nature of the world is that if we want to succeed in life, anything we want to do, we need something beyond ourselves. That means, we may say, I worked hard and I succeeded. Yeah, it’s true, you worked hard, but our own hard work doesn’t lead to success in any area of life.
So many other things have to fall in place. If somebody develops a new software programme, they definitely worked hard. But so many other things have to fall in place.
We have to get the right ideas at the right time. We have to have the right contacts to make everything work. So success requires that we do the work but also that other things fall in place.
So now, how do the other things fall in place? Those other things fall in place based on our past good karma. So, 10 students may apply for Ayurvedic University and maybe all of them are good, meritorious, but they have their own non-transparent criteria and one student gets selected. Why is that? All of them have studied well, but that one student also has some past good karma.
So the present karma is important, but the past karma is also important. So present karma plus past karma both lead to a good result. It’s not only present karma.
Now, so we need good karma to gain success. But the principle then is that we need good karma even to do bad karma. That means, say 10th youth may plan to rob a bank.
Only one succeeds in robbing a bank. Why does that one person succeed? Because that one thief had the good karma to succeed. But now that thief instead of robbing could have done something more constructive.
And by their good karma they could have succeeded even in that. Hitler was supposed to be a powerful leader. Now, that was his karma.
But he used that karma to become a powerful and dreadful leader. So the point is we need good karma to succeed in anything in life. To succeed even in doing bad karma.
Suppose some terrorists want to blow up a particular building. Now, they require sometimes weeks and months of planning to do that. And after that they succeed.
They may make dozen times attempt to blow up a building. They don’t succeed. One time they succeed.
Now, why do they succeed? It’s because of their past good karma. But they are using their past good karma to succeed now. But what they are doing right now is bad karma.
So, just the success of our endeavours doesn’t mean that what we are doing is the right thing. So, the point I am making is that when Lord Shiva empowered Ashwatthama with that level Does that mean it was that Lord Shiva wanted him to kill? Even if he assumed that okay all those warriors had to die. The Lord could have arranged an earthquake to come.
The Lord could have arranged a flood to come. Why does Ashwatthama have to do it? And Ashwatthama when he was doing it, he was not thinking that the desire in him had come from his own personal vendetta. From his own personally wanting to take revenge.
And even if we say that his taking revenge was a fair desire. Well, okay he could have killed Dhrishtadyumna. Dhrishtadyumna killed his father, he killed Dhrishtadyumna.
Even if you want to take revenge, it has to be proportionate. It’s not that one person from your side killed me, so I’ll kill a thousand people from your side. Or a million people from your side.
That just is not proportionate. So, Lord Shiva did empower. But, that empowerment was not in one sense the proof that what Ashwatthama was doing was the right thing.
What Ashwatthama did was a terrible thing. So, this is where the one of the key differences between the worship of the devatas and the worship of the Lord comes up. Krishna will only empower us to do good things.
Because Krishna is ultimately our well-wisher. Now does that mean Lord Shiva is not our well-wisher? Lord Shiva is also our well-wisher. However, Lord Shiva operates within particular paradigms.
And in this case, if what you want to do, I will let you do it. If you want to do good, I will empower you to do good. If you want to do bad, that’s what you strongly want, that’s what I will let you do.
So, Ashutosh, that’s the idea that he is easily pleased. So, we can become instruments for our own dark desires. And then we get empowerment for that.
This is in no way to minimise Lord Shiva’s position. It is to contextualise the way devata worship works. Lord Shiva is himself known for this.
And he is wanting to elevate everyone. At the same time, how people use his power, access, appeal to him, worship him, use his power is up to them. And that’s how devotees approach Lord Shiva.
He is what is it? The connection. That is the last part I have seen. His compassion and his connection is how we connect with him.
If we have dark desires and we connect with Lord Shiva with dark desires, then our dark desires will be fulfilled even with our connection with Lord Shiva. But then the result will be that we will go down a dark path. Ravan, I will later retell this as a Ramayan.
Ravan, before he went to abduct Lord Sita, Sita, Mother Sita, he actually performed a yagya to Lord Shiva. I want to be successful. Now, is that what kind of perverted mentality is that you are going to abduct a woman and for that you are worshipping her.
Now, he was successful in abducting Sita. But just because he was successful doesn’t mean that what he did was the right thing. It was a terrible thing.
He was punished eventually for that. So, the way we worship, we understand Lord Shiva and approach Lord Shiva as devotees is that it is our responsibility primarily to purify our heart. It is our responsibility to be driven by pure desires.
And that’s why when devotees approach Lord Shiva, it is in the mood of, my dear Lord, I want to be a pure servant of the Lord. I want to serve Krishna. I want to be an instrument in Krishna’s hands.
And you please bless me to become a better instrument. So, the Gopis, they worship Katyayani. In Vrindavan, we have various sages of Mahadev.
Gopeshwar Mahadev, and other Mahadev. They are at one level, they are protecting Vrindavan now, but they are also the blessers of devotees. So, the idea is, if it is we approach Lord Shiva with a pure desire, or at least a desire for purification, then Lord Shiva will bless us and that will be his compassion.
That Lord Shiva, if somebody wants to attain the ultimate destination, wants to do the ultimate good for themselves and for others, then Lord Shiva is his compassion means he will bless in extraordinary ways. So, that is how as devotees, we approach Mahashivratri. That, my dear Lord, please, my dear Lord Shiva, please bless me so that I can become a better servant of Krishna.
So that I can become a better instrument of Krishna’s will. You please empower me, bless me by your compassion to purify my heart. It is this mood of Lord Shiva that is very much compatible with bhakti.
Dakshavas, sons, they are instructed by Lord Shiva to become devoted to Lord Shiva. And that’s how the Hamsa Guhya prayers are there, many other prayers in the Bhagavatam, they are in this particular mood. In this mood, Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu composed the Shiva Shikham.
When he was travelling across India, he went to places like Gondeshwar, there was a temple of Lord Shiva. And he worshipped Gondeshwar, worshipped with Gondeshwar. What is his mood? That Lord Shiva is such a great, he plays such a significant role in the Lord’s plan.
He is very, very close to the Lord. And he can help us to come closer to the Lord. So, I have not gone today too much in the technicalities of the position of Lord Shiva.
But I focus more on understanding the overall system of worship and how we can play our part in that system for our own elevation and for the elevation of others. So, I’ll summarise what we discussed today. I talked about three things.
The first was conception. The conception of the Vedic tradition is polymorphic, does anyone remember the words? Multilevel monotheism. Yes, multilevel monotheism.
That is that there is one God, but one God manifests at multiple levels. Advaitam acyutam anadhimantarupam. So, in this we discussed the system of how? It is Krishna who enables, enables the worship of the devatas to happen.
He gives shraddha and he gives shakti. He gives the power to the devatas to fulfil the desires of the worshippers and he gives faith. So, we discussed the prodigal son story expanded how Krishna’s compassion is far far more than what is taught about the Abrahamic teachings of God.
He is accepting, waiting for the lost children to come back. Here God is actively working and selflessly working so much that even if my glorification is not there, your elevation is there, I am satisfied with that. I am happy with that.
Then we talked about the compassion of Lord Shiva. So, compassion can be seen in easily understandable ways in the churning ocean pastime and sometimes in not so understandable ways in his appearance where he seems to be Tamasik, we may think like that but he is always compassionate. He is always wanting to elevate everyone and then the last part we discussed was connection.
Connection means that how we connect with Lord Shiva is up to us. So, if we connect with dark desires, then those dark desires will be fulfilled. We discussed the story of Ashwathama.
So, just because we are empowered doesn’t mean we are right. We may want to be wrong and we may be empowered to do wrong. So, to do bad karma, we need good karma.
To do bad karma means to do bad karma successfully we need good karma. So, similarly, for Ashwathama to succeed, he needed the power given by Lord Shiva. That does not mean that what he did was right.
So, the connection is with positive or devotional desires. Then Lord Shiva will bless us. Then he will bless us to become better instruments.
Bless us to be better servants, better devotees and better instruments for making our own good and for the world’s good. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.
Are there any questions or comments? Just a quick announcement. Prabhu, do we have books outside? Yes, Prabhu. I have written a couple of books.
There is a book on the Ramayana which describes practical life lessons from the Ramayana and there is an 1165 course inspired by the Bhagavad Gita. So, God is not just a filler of desires. God is the fulfilment of desires.
Hold your plans lightly. Hold your Lord tightly. There are many courses like that which have been inspired by Bhagavad Gita.
Those calendars are available outside. If any of you want, you can have a look at that. Somebody is there? Yes, you can just read the question.
I just wanted to ask that Jesus Christ teaches I mean Jesus Christ is also a and he talks more about love of God rather than conception or non-conception. So, I just wanted to understand that Prabhu Padhyay mentioned and he also said love of God gets more important rather than conception or non-conception. Yes, of course.
That’s just one way of looking at it. Ultimately, where someone is on their spiritual journey is between that individual and Krishna. So, somebody could be a devta worshipper but they might be very, very materialistic.
Somebody might be following Jesus and they might be very selfless and spiritually evolved. Or conversely, somebody might be following Jesus who is teaching the path of love of God but they might be very materialistic. And somebody might be worshipping Lord Shiva who we consider Tamas.
But that person themselves might be very spiritually evolved. So, we have to look at the consciousness of the individual person. So, there are different perspectives to this.
And Prabhu Padhyay is giving one perspective. Can you just make that statement? That any worshipper of devta is better than any practitioner of any other religion? Of course not. Prabhu Padhyay never made that statement.
Prabhu Padhyay is just saying that in that particular context. So, being in the house of the Vedas, is it better? Well, relatively speaking, for someone who is within that same complex of religions, if somebody is worshipping Durga, for that person to worship Krishna or at least for that person to accept the idea of deity worship is not very difficult. For somebody from the Abrahamic religions, if they are hardcore followers, just the idea of deity worship itself is very difficult to accept.
So, in fact, according to the Quran, Allah can forgive all sins except the sin of idol worship. So, that is, according to Quran, it’s an express way to hell to worship any form. And that’s why the idea of destroying temples, it’s not a fringe extremist idea within Islam.
It is very central to their theology. That does not mean all Muslims are going to do that. Of course not.
Because not all Muslims buy into that theology exactly. But the point is, for somebody who has been an Islamic follower, for them, conceptually the idea of worshipping a deity is very difficult to accept. So, in that sense, if we look at it from a principle of devotional perspective of developing love of God, somebody from the Abrahamic religions may have great devotion to God.
But from a cultural perspective, if they come to a temple, in their tradition, they may be very devoted to God. But if they come to a temple, they may still think this is the embodiment of the saint. Because for them, deity is, not only they are not God, they are actually embodiments of Satan to take you away from God.
So, it is a complex thing. Saint Ignatius is supposed to be considered one of the big saints in the Catholic tradition. And if you look at his writings, he has written quite elevated poems about the love of God.
But then, he has also celebrated the desecration and destruction of the deities. He says, nothing gives me more joy. Nothing gives me more.
Few things give me more fulfilment to my heart than to see the pagan gods being reduced to dust. And they are erstwhile worshippers of those pagan gods. Now, kicking those very stone images as they chant the names of Jesus and are turning towards the saviour.
So, it’s very complex. For them, in fact, what may happen is, the greater their devotion, their conception of love of God in their tradition, that may lead to greater intolerance to the cultural manifestations within the community. Now, this is by no means, again to qualify very clearly, it’s not saying at all that most or even majority of followers of Abrahamic religions today will do like that.
But, that cultural conception leads to a significant obstacle for them. So, that’s why, who is better, we have to see. Who is better situated? It’s a nuanced analysis.
Thank you. Yes, sir. Thank you for the nice question.
You had mentioned that when interacting with people who are at the level of demigod worship, to be careful not to antagonise them. What would be the right approach? See, generally speaking, two things. First is, appreciate that in a world where there is so much materialism, they are worshipped with the devatas at least.
And then, just give them an experience of Krishna bhakti. Generally speaking, most people who worship devatas are not fanatical worshippers. If you invite them to a Krishna temple, they will come.
No person who is within the Vedic complex will say Krishna is not God. What they may say, Krishna alone is God, they may not be able to accept that. But just invite them to a Krishna temple.
Let Krishna do the magic within their heart. Not all the transformation happens necessarily through philosophical debate and confrontation only. Where it is required, you can do that.
But just give them an opportunity to connect with Krishna. Maybe let them do some service to Krishna. Most of the life members who helped Srila Prabhupada build the Juhu temple, they were dedicated disciples and leading followers of Mayavadi gurus.
They were already initiated in that tradition. But Prabhupada engaged them in Krishna’s service. And both Rarahat Maharaj and Raj Maharaj told me that one of those life members, he was in his last days.
They went to meet him in his last days. And he was remembering Prabhupada. He was glorifying Prabhupada and all that Prabhupada had done.
Now Rarahat Maharaj was telling me that I was thinking that when this person is going to depart, is Krishna going to see this person was initiated by a Mayavadi guru or is Krishna going to see this person has so much increasing for Prabhupada. Even on his deathbed he is glorifying Prabhupada. And he is not saying I did so much service to Swamiji.
He is saying Swamiji is so great. So what is Krishna going to see? Krishna is Bhavakaraya. We can’t really entirely predict.
But we know Krishna is Bhavakaraya. So things are nuanced. So we basically try to connect them with Krishna.
And does it have to be through confronting their conception of divinity? Just give them an opportunity to connect with Krishna and experience Krishna. And do some service to Krishna. Thank you.
Yes, Prabhu. So we we hear from our Dharvatam scripture that anybody who criticises the form of the law or any in the Vedic literature, they are considered as and they are destined to go to down the hill. Including the something like that.
So I keep hearing those in the description. So most of the Vedic followers do not actually make any comment on any other beliefs. But whereas the other beliefs they actually end up you know, criticising the Vedic belief system.
So what would be their what would be the implications when they do it unknowingly? Generally speaking, aparaj is offence is when something is done knowingly. So everybody comes from their conceptions. And it’s utterly unfair to anyone to be judged according to standards which they have not accepted.
Let me say karma is always universal. It is true. But within this life, if somebody comes to the temple and they don’t offer, they don’t bow down in front of the deities.
And if you don’t bow down to deities, you are offending God. Well, in their tradition, they may not be bowing down to the divine. They may offer in some other way.
So how exactly things will work out in the long run between them and God? The statements should be seen as cautionary, not punitive. Cautionary means it is a caution for us. We should not act in this way.
But you should not think that they are, this is how everybody who is not following this will be punished. That’s generally not the mood of the Vaishnavacharyas. Vaishnavacharyas said that no, let people connect with God in whatever way they can.
Prabhupada even even wanted that when we had got the Los Angeles temple, he told Prabhupada, we will have the deities in some other place and the main temple hall, what is now the temple hall, he says, let people come in with their shoes inside over there. Let them sit and let them hear talks over there. Prabhupada wanted people to be culturally comfortable.
We can have a purandar darshan, let the deities be somewhere else. But then as our community grew and we needed a place where all the people could be so we had to have the temple all over there. So it’s not a, it should not be used to condemn others.
Thank you. I didn’t take that very seriously but when you offer a devotee, a pure devotee of Krishna then Krishna is like Ok. How Krishna will work further? Ok, so he said if we offer something to Krishna, Krishna will take it.
But if we offer to a devotee, then Krishna takes it. If we offend. Offend.
Oh, I thought offer. Ok, ok. No, no.
If we offend a devotee and present the gift of Krishnamurti, then how does Krishna work for the offender in order to… Well again, when you talk about offence also it has to be carefully understood that the principle of offence, underlying principle is that don’t take exalted things cheaply. Have a proper level of respect for them. That’s the key principle behind offence.
Now, those who are devoted to Krishna, Krishna wants to be glorified in this world. Doesn’t want them to be disrespected. But then in general overall Krishna’s mission is a mission of elevating everyone.
So, for example, Prabhupada was a sanyasi. When he was in India, when people see sanyasi, they don’t respect him. But when Prabhupada came to America, nobody respected him that way, at least initially.
All the people who didn’t respect him were they offending a sanyasi? And in that way the case, then Prabhupada by coming to America and preaching extensively to people who were not likely to respect him as sanyasi was actually making more and more people offenders to Krishna. Isn’t it? So preaching to anyone who is not respectful is like making that person an offender. Should we not be going to anybody who is going to be disrespectful to us? That’s not the mood over there.
So statements about offence, again the same principle, that whenever there are any extreme statements in scripture, extreme statements or extreme examples, so what is that person? So for example, is it positive or negative example? Ajami chants once the name of Narayan and it’s saved. Now what is the conclusion from that? Parishad Maharaj is hearing this. Now Parishad Maharaj could have said, hey you know, Shubhdev Goswami, you are speaking for seven days, I am hearing for you for seven days.
Nothing required. When the word comes, I just chant one Narayan. You shut up now.
I’ll enjoy. He doesn’t say that. Why? Because the spirit is important.
That is, extreme statements are there. It is not to standardise the extreme. That this is what.
That is not the mood of Parishad Maharaj. That is not the mood of Shubhdev Goswami. That is not the mood of Prabhupada in his purpose.
Prabhupada doesn’t say that, okay, all of you do whatever you want, just chant one name. If even one unconscious or unintentional chanting of the holy name can have so many benefits, then regular conscious chanting, how much benefit more will you have? Let’s therefore chant. It is to emphasise the standard.
Not to standardise the extreme. They are two very different purposes. And so what this means is that there are offences and there are serious consequences of the offences we have talked about in scripture.
But the point is not to live in constant fear of those offences. The point is to learn to develop, to follow the process by which we will develop the appropriate respect. And I used to, I go to Australia and one place, one devotee used to come and share classes with me, ask a lot of good questions, tough questions but good questions.
So I had gone there and he just didn’t come for any of the programmes. So then I asked the local devotee, I got his number, I called him and I said, oh, I cannot come for any class. I said, what happened? He said, no, no, I can’t come at all.
He says, well, I didn’t come to meet him privately. I said, okay. Then I said, when he came to meet me, what happened? He said, sometime before you came, you know, there was a series of classes.
Some missionary speaker had come and a series of classes was all on Vaishnav apartheid. And now, after hearing that classes on Vaishnav apartheid, I have become so scared of committing apartheid to Vaishnavas that I decided not to associate myself with them. So I told him, that’s like after you hear some seminar on food poisoning.
You become so scared that I will not eat any food. You know, that’s not the point of hearing about food poisoning. Be careful about the food you consume.
So, yes, there is a possibility to offend devotees. But that shouldn’t mean that we don’t associate with devotees. Rather, yes, sometimes some offences may happen.
We were cautious to avoid it. But we don’t have to become paranoid. Krishna is not out waiting for us.
Hey, you committed this offence, now get locked. I will try to punish you now. So, the idea is to foster a culture of respect.
It is not to create an atmosphere of fear or terror. So all the statements related to offences have to be seen. So, specifically, statements about offences.
Their purpose is what? Is to create a culture of respect. That is their purpose. Sorry.
That is their purpose. Their purpose is not to foster an atmosphere of terror. Oh, this may go wrong.
That may go wrong. That may go wrong. So, it shouldn’t be that understanding at all.
So, last question. Do you also have a question? Sure. I want to know that we have a good dog and a bad dog in most of us, in Tamil Nadu.
So, when you get the empowerment to do some bad things, how do we how do we say no to that and turn our attention to let’s So, if you get empowerment to do something bad, what does that mean? That means you get a facility. So, at that time, we have to evaluate whether this facility is going to be good for me. This particular opportunity is going to be good for me.
So, suppose somebody has diabetes because they have consumed too many sweets and they get a service of being Mahaprasad Amit Shah. Well, it’s a service. It’s a good service.
Yeah, it’s a good service. But is it good for me? Maybe it is not. I have to have the humility to know that there is I will distribute Mahaprasad to my own belly.
Most of the time. I will not be able to distribute So, maybe we have to say no to some services. So, it is for us to evaluate whether I have the adhikar to do that service.
And if sometimes we don’t have the adhikar, we don’t feel that we don’t have the maturity to do that service, then it’s all right. It’s also a sign of humility that I can do this. Yes, ma’am.
Is it loud? Yeah. So, all the religions are All the religions to be? Okay. Okay.
So, there are some overarching similarities. At the same time, there are some irreducible differences also. The overarching similarities are, for example, all religions talk about love of God.
All religions talk about becoming a little more selfless, becoming more virtuous. There are broad principles. The broad similarities are very much there.
Now, having said that, different religions are involved at different times. And because they are involved at different times, they are meant for people with different mindsets. So then, from their experience, they extrapolate certain things.
So, if you look at the Old Testament story, what happens is, Moses is taking the people who were slaves in Egypt to the Promised Land, which is later called Jerusalem. Now, while they are going along, he gets an intuition that God is calling him up a mountain to get a special message. While he goes up the mountain, he’s gone for some time, the remaining followers, they take all the gold that whatever they have over there, and they make a golden calf.
And they start worshipping their golden calf. When Moses comes back, he has got the Ten Commandments. One of the commandments is, thou shalt not worship any graven images.
Thou shalt not worship any god other than thee. When he sees the golden calf being worshipped, he gets so angry, that he drops the tablet of the Ten Commandments that have been given to him. And he goes and smashes that golden calf.
So, that golden calf is just a concoction from their minds. And he says, don’t worship that. Now, in the Abrahamic tradition, there is no description of the form of God.
And when in the tradition there is no description of the form of God, remember, if somebody is making an image of God, that’s going to be a concoction. And such a concocted image is going to take people away from God. So, within their tradition’s knowledge base, the condemnation of embodied forms of divinity, the condemnation of images, it works.
Because all the images there would have been concocted. But, when those particular teachings, or that particular tradition, encounters another tradition, wherein there are descriptions of the form of God, then what happens? So, that’s why when a teaching is extrapolated beyond its domain, then it becomes a problem. That’s why, that principle that is there in our tradition, that is important.
And, when there is more interaction, scripture should be used as a resource for better understanding the reality. But scripture should not be used to refuse to experience reality as it is. What I mean by that is, if somebody comes to a temple and sees genuine devotion in the worship of the deity, then they have to process that.
What does this mean? How do I process it? So, there are broad-minded Christians and others, they have visited temples, Krishna temple, and said, you know, we thought these are just idols, but the amount of devotion that is being inspired, the amount of devotion that is there over there, we have not seen it sometimes, in most church services also. Then they have to do some cognitive reframing, cognitive structuring to try to figure it out. How does it work? Now, we also may have to do that.
We may say meat-eating is one of the basic four regular principles for practising spiritual life. And that is true. But we may encounter Christians who may be eating meat, but if you talk with them, you hear them, they may have extraordinary levels of realisation about nature of the material world, their devotion to God may be very, very, very elevated.
So, how can somebody meet it and be so elevated? They need to do some cognitive restructuring. So, reality is always more complex than whatever frame we have for analysing reality. So, every religious tradition uses a frame for understanding the world.
And that frame is useful, but we have to remember that, like a map. Every analytical frame is like a map. But the territory is always more complicated than the map.
Now, the map, okay, this is Canada, this is America. Or this is India, this is China. But you go at the border, it’s not just a simple thing.
Where exactly is the border? So, that’s why when the maps are used, not to understand the territory, but the maps are made more real than the territory, then it becomes a problem. So, like that, when religious tradition, whichever religious tradition it is, if we use that as an absolute analytical frame, and then try to retrofit reality within that, it becomes a problem. I hope I’m making myself clear what I’m saying.
And this is not just something which applies to Abrahamic religion. I give it from our perspective also. The meat-eater might be a great devotee.
So, how? Well, yeah, if they had not been a meat-eater, they would have been an even greater devotee. But still, they have their devotion. So, reality is always more complicated than our any frame provided by any religious tradition for understanding reality.
So… No, these are all nuances. We have to consider those. These are all important factors that we have to consider.
But the point is, bhakti is apratihata. Bhakti is independent. In somebody’s heart, bhakti can manifest.
So, we say bhakti is independent, but if you are eating meat, bhakti becomes independent. Our own philosophy has provisions for all these things. So, there’s a lot of nuance over there.
So, when the nuance is lost, that’s where fanaticism starts coming. So, thank you very much. Shri Prabhupada ki… Jai! Shri Prabhupada ki… Jai! Jai! Thank you so much.
Super wonderful. Thank you. Prasad is downstairs.