Mahabharata 3 – Karna – Deciding based on intent, content or effect

​Seminar at ISKCON, Toronto, Canada

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna So I thank all of you for coming here today and I apologise, I had a meeting with Bhakti Marg Maharaja and he’s going today to India. So we had to talk some urgent things and that’s all.
So today we’ll be talking about probably about the character who is probably the most controversial in the Mahabharata. And that is Karna. Now I’ll give some background in terms of ethical theory and then I’ll go into the incidents first of all.
Mahabharata says that right and wrong they are not categorical. I mentioned this earlier that categorical, this is right and this is wrong. It’s not categorical, it is contextual.
It’s dependent on context. And broadly speaking now what is right or what is wrong, this can be determined in three ways. Many, but three primary ways you could say, in terms of intent, in terms of content and in terms of effect.
So in terms of intent if say somebody has got a wound in their body and the child is in great pain and somebody says, oh you know you got a wound in this body, I will cut it I’ll remove the infected part and heal it. Intent may be good but if the person doesn’t know how to do surgery and how to know how to do the remove the infected part, good intent is no substitute for good execution. So I may say that I have good intent but unless I have the competence, the qualification necessary to do right things I cannot do it right.
So just the rightness of intent is no justification for whatever we do. I have to see the intent I have to have a good intention. Just like a doctor, the doctor is doing surgery, the doctor is doing surgery thinking that maybe I can even complicate this a little bit so that I can get more money, I can have more tests done, I can have more operations done.
Intent is bad. So intent does matter but intent is not all that matters. After intent there is whether we are capable of doing the right thing or not, that also matters.
Now here I am talking more in terms of competence. Good intent is not a substitute for good competence, the capacity to do the things right. So now when we come to the specific actions that we are doing, there is a content of the actions.
Content means what we are doing. So some actions are good, some actions are bad but say for example if I put a knife in somebody’s stomach that is bad normally but if I am a surgeon who is putting a knife in somebody’s stomach so that I can treat and heal them then that is good. So we could say that by the content this action is good and this action is bad but content is also not a decisive marker of determining what is the right thing.
Say I am putting knife inside the body that can be completely different that can have different implications depending on who is doing it and that brings us to the effect. The effect means sometimes a doctor may have good intention doctor may be competent also but sometimes just unexpected complications happen and the patient dies. So there are effects.
So now that means what is right or what is wrong we could decide it based on intent we could decide it based on content or we could decide it based on effect. In ethical theory there are specific schools of thought which are associated with each of these. Now decisions may be based on content, decisions may be based on intent, decisions may be based on effect.
We will not go into all that but at this stage we will look at I won’t go over all of Karna’s life but I will look at some of the major decisions that he made and especially the last decision which he made of turning away from Krishna and choosing to stay with Duryodhana. So the character of Karna is something which many of us can relate to it easily. For the simple reason that Karna appears in the Mahabharata as a wrong hero.
Life gave him a raw deal. He was born as a Kshatriya, as a hero but he was never recognised as a hero. One of the most common feelings that people have, almost everyone has.
People feel I don’t have enough money or I don’t have enough this, I don’t have enough that but the most common slacks that people feel they have is almost everyone in life they feel I am underappreciated. They all feel that I am not appreciated I am doing so much. People don’t appreciate me.
And Karna is a character who is like that. He was so competent, he was so skilled he was such a great archer. And on top of that he had virtues also.
He was charitable, phenomenally charitable. So you feel that oh he is a wrong character. Because often life also gives us raw deals at times so we can relate with Karna easily.
So when I first watched the Mahabharata maybe 30-35 years ago so at that time when I saw Karna he was a character that resonated with me immediately. Whenever anyone would call him Suta Suta is actually is not a bad word. Suta is also respectable in terms of if you consider the Varnashram hierarchy Sutas are actually a combination of Kshatriya with usually a Vaishya.
And the word Suta has different meanings but in this context they are charioteers. And to be a charioteer is a respectable thing. They are getting close association with the king or association with a great warrior and they are friends with that warrior, friends with the great hero.
So charioteer is a respectable thing. But in the context of Karna he always felt it like an insight. Because that Suta was used or he felt it was used to point out that he was not a Kshatriya.
And he wanted to be a Kshatriya. So it’s a when we are judged for something which is not in our power then we feel very helpless. We can be very bitter.
So when I was in school some students would tease me cripple. So now you know it makes one angry. So I can relate when somebody judges you for what you are not and then somebody accepts you at that time then we are in a very emotionally vulnerable situation.
And at that time somebody accepts us, we become overwhelmed by that. And that is what happened to Karna when Duryodhana accepted him. I explained earlier how Duryodhana had this deep rooted envy against the Pandavas.
And he felt I can deal with Bhima but I need someone to deal with Arjuna. And then in the martial exhibition that was done after Drona’s students graduated. So basically it was a private ceremony.
Just like say here you have Toronto University. And then if Toronto University is having say debating school and then the expert debaters come out over there. And then at the time of their convocation they are exhibiting their debating skills.
And at that time somebody from some other university comes in and says I will exhibit my debating skills. Well yes you can have competition but that is not the forum. That is for the Toronto graduates.
So like that the martial exhibition was a forum for Drona’s students to exhibit their skills. But Karna he had talent. He had capacities.
He had great archery skills. But he was itching for recognition. I am also a great hero.
And he gate crashed over there. He said I can do everything. I will excel what Partha has done.
And then am I allowed to participate. So now Drona nodded. So then he started exhibiting the skills.
And he equalled everything that Partha had done. You know he wanted to excel him but at that point he equalled. And then seeing that he had not been able to excel he said I would like to challenge Partha for a duel.
So Arjuna stiffened. From that time a lifelong rivalry was born. So Arjuna was about to start a duel.
Now at this point Kripa asked wait a minute. There is going to be a duel The credentials of both the parties have to be known. And we know who Arjuna is.
Everybody knows him. Who are you? Now where do you come from? What are your antecedents? Which dynasty do you belong to? And his head fell at that time. So everybody understood that.
And he was not a Kshatriya. And when this happened Duryodhana was an adept politician. So politician means they are always eager to strike alliances.
So your enemy’s enemy is your friend. So Arjuna is my enemy and Partha is his rival. So immediately Duryodhana was being a good politician.
Opportunistic politician over there. But what he did? He took the moral high ground. And he gave a speech.
He said that how do you think that a goat can ever give birth to a lion? Just can’t you see his arms? Can’t you see his skills? He is such a great hero. He must be the son of a hero. But if you think that the characteristic of heroism is that somebody should have a kingdom then I will bestow him the kingdom.
And there itself he asked water to be got and there he coronated Karna as the king of Anga. And Karna was completely overwhelmed. Now what was about to be it was like a very turbulent period for Karna.
First was he came in and he equalled the greatest archer of his times. It was a moment of great jubilation. But the next when his antecedents were asked he felt humiliated.
And now suddenly he was made a king of a kingdom. He was immediately granted entrance into the ranks which he always wanted to belong to. He was completely overwhelmed.
He says, Duryodhana I am so grateful to you. What can I do for you? Whatever were the evils of Duryodhana Duryodhana actually knew how to manipulate people. So he said, Oh Karna, I do not want anything from you except your lifelong friendship.
Oh that you will surely have. And then now significantly two points before we move forward. Actually Duryodhana he gave the kingdom of Anga to Karna.
But actually it was not Duryodhana’s kingdom to give. At that time the status of the kingdom was disputed. Actually Dhritarashtra was the caretaker king.
And Duryodhana in that sense had no right to the kingdom to give to someone. But because it was a matter of a member of the family. It’s like if you have a big joint family and then one member says, Oh I’ll give you this charity.
And then it becomes a matter of prestige for the whole family. If somebody says, No no we will not give this charity to you. It becomes disgrace for the whole family.
So the Pandavas stayed silent to maintain the honour of the Kuru family when the charity was given. So it was not his charity to give. And we could say at this point that Karna he may not have known about the evil nature of Duryodhana.
And so he accepted that friendship. He might have been guileless. He just wanted somebody to some way to compete with compete with Arjuna.
That’s fine. So his gratitude is natural. It is good.
It is virtues to be grateful to somebody who has done good for us. But what happened thereafter is the Mahabharata describes that Karna’s Karna’s cause of reunion was his misdirected loyalty. Loyalty is good.
But that loyalty blinded him to the vices of Duryodhana. So thereafter whatever scheme Duryodhana came up with Karna either consented or he aggravated that scheme. So initially Karna protested.
For example, when the Pandavas conspired to send the Pandavas to Arnavarta where they would have them burnt. Karna said, why do you want to try such devious things? Let’s call them for a fight. We will defeat them and you can take their kingdom.
You will have the full kingdom. At that time they had no kingdom. So you will inherit the full kingdom.
Shakuni said, you will not be able to defeat them. And Duryodhana was caught between these two. He had faith in Karna’s prowess but he felt Shakuni is more mature and Shakuni is more skilled.
So he went along with Shakuni’s plans. So initially in some of the schemes Karna opposed. But eventually that bad association had effect.
You know, who we become largely is determined by which social circle we want to belong to. If you go to college, there are some clubs. If I want to belong to this club, then I have to become like this.
I have to do these things. I have to do these things. So what happened is, Duryodhana had his own club.
And Karna, he wanted to belong to that. And for that purpose, Karna did terrible things. In Draupadi’s disrobing, we discussed earlier how it was Karna who suggested that Draupadi be dragged into the assembly and disrobed.
It was Karna who called Draupadi a prostitute. It was Karna who opposed Vikarna when Vikarna had said that the whole gambling match was rigged and it should be declared null and void. And later on, when Draupadi asked for benedictions, Dhritarashtra gave benedictions to Draupadi and the Pandavas were released.
And while they were going along, Karna just could not. This was actually, the whole thing had calmed down. And Draupadi had saved the day in one sense.
Although she had almost lost her honour, but she had saved the day. She had gone to restore everything for the Pandavas and things could have ended amicably. But Karna could not resist a cheap shot.
He says, just see these heroes who have been saved by a woman. Now, this is a very cheap shot which he took. And that is he flamed the Pandavas and Draupadi both.
So later on, when Karna meets Bhishma, just when Bhishma falls on the 10th day of the war, and 11th morning, I am talking about the Kurukshetra war, 11th morning, Karna goes to meet Bhishma. But that is when Karna is going to start fighting. So at that time, Karna says that actually he apologises to Bhishma for the harsh words that he has spoken.
Normally, the Indian tradition is that no matter how bitter a relationship is with someone, if that person is going to die, before that we patch things up with them. We go and speak pleasing words, apologise, and patch things up. So Karna went and he tried to patch things up with Bhishma.
And Bhishma was also very understanding. And Karna at that time says that, you know, I should not have spoken those words when I spoke to Draupadi over there. It’s only because I wanted to please Duryodhana that I did those things.
And I regret it. So now, what happened is he not only went along with Duryodhana’s evil ways, but he did more. He actually gave up his virtue of protecting women, which is a Kshatriya’s duty, for the sake of pleasing Duryodhana.
So any virtue is good. But when one virtue becomes so great that it makes us trample on other virtues. If my loyalty becomes so great, then because of that loyalty, I don’t protect those women I am meant to protect.
And that is disproportionate. That can be dangerous. So this is with respect to Karna’s choices.
I’ll come to Karna’s last choice a little later. But before that, let’s look at the competence. So in terms of intent, so my frame of analysis is intent, content, and effect.
So in terms of intent, Karna may have intended simply, I have got archery skills, I want to show them to the world. I want a platform by which I can show it to the world. That intent is not wrong.
And with that intent, he accepted the friendship of Duryodhana. But what happens is, in the intent, if we just give importance to one thing and neglect other things, so gradually his intent changed, not just from exhibiting the archery skills and trying to become the best archer, his intent changed to wanting to please Duryodhana and do whatever it takes to please Duryodhana. So that’s why if our association is not good, we may start with good intention, but the good intention will not stay because our intention is often affected by what kind of people we associate with.
So his intent got contaminated. Now as far as the content of his actions is concerned, how many people feel that actually, you know, that Karna was the better archer. And because he was the better archer, therefore that is the reason why Krishna had to tell Arjuna to kill Karna unfairly at the end when his chariot was off the ground.
So let’s go over the history of the encounters between Karna and Arjuna and see who was the better archer. So if let’s, you know, we have like if we have a hockey match, we have goals, you know, we’ll keep track of scores. How much were there encounters and what happened.
So the first encounter was at Drona’s martial exhibition and both of them had a both of them exhibited equal actions. So it was like a draw. You know, Arjuna 0, Karna 0. Then next, there were some encounters were direct, some encounters were indirect.
After this, after the martial exhibition got over, then then they, both the parties, Pandavas and Kauravas went to Drona to give his Guru Dakshina and Drona said arrest Drupada and bring him to me. So both the Pandavas and Kauravas started rushing. So at that time Arjuna told stop, let the Kauravas go first.
So when the Kauravas were going, at that time Karna also went with them because Karna also, he wanted to belong to that group and they attacked Drupada’s army and Drupada along with his full army effortlessly defeated Duryodhana and Duryodhana had to flee at that time and at that time Karna was also there and Karna also fled and after that Arjuna and the Pandavas attacked and Arjuna attacked with such force that Drupada was defeated and Drupada was arrested and brought before Drona. So here what do we have? Drupada defeated Karna and Arjuna defeated Drupada. So Arjuna proved himself to be superior to Karna.
So we have Arjuna won Karna 0. Now after that the two faced off in Draupadi swayamvar where in terms of hitting the target either Karna was not allowed to shoot or Karna shot and missed. Let’s leave that part apart. But later on when Arjuna won the hand of Draupadi and then they were going to take the bride.
The Kshatriyas became furious. They said what is this? She is a Kshatriya princess and you invited all of us to swayamvar and now you are letting a Brahmana take her. You are dishonouring us and we will punish you for this and they all got up.
They took their sword, their bows and started charging towards Drupada. At that time Yudhishthira said that Drupada is now our father-in-law. We have to protect her.
So then both Arjuna and Karna, Arjuna and Bhima sprang into action. So at that time Bhima fought with Shalya the king’s led by Shalya fought with Bhima and Arjuna fought with Karna and they both fought and fought. Karna initially shot arrows lightly thinking what can this Brahmana fight? I don’t want to injure the Brahmana.
But what to speak of he injuring the Brahmana? The Brahmana started injuring him. He was surprised. He kept shooting with better arrows and all of them were countered.
And finally Arjuna said, Karna said, Oh venerable one I do not want to fight with you. The Brahmanas are always to be respected by the Kshatriyas. And he stopped fighting.
So basically again you could say here it was a draw. Arjuna, the score remains Arjuna 1, Karna 0. Arjuna did not defeat Karna, Karna did not defeat Arjuna. Now after this the next encounter was when the Pandavas were in the forest.
At that time the Duryodhana wanted to flaunt his wealth to the Pandavas. It’s like you know somebody is sick and they are fasting and then you are eating a big feast and you go into their sick room with your feast and show it. Just to make them feel miserable.
So like that what Duryodhana wanted to do? Take all his wealth and go and flaunt it in the area where the Pandavas were staying. And now at that place the Gandharvas were there. The Gandharvas were sporting.
And the Gandharvas told Duryodhana you cannot come here. I said this is my land, I can come wherever I want. He said no, we are having our activities over here.
So there was a fight in which actually Karna, Duryodhana, Dushasan, Shakuni, all of them were there. And the Gandharvas just overpowered all of them. Shakuni fled first and Dushasan fled.
Then Karna got injured. Karna also fled. And Duryodhana was left all alone.
Duryodhana fought and fought but he was just not competent. He was overpowered. He was arrested.
And after that some of the Kshatriya warriors, some of his soldiers were there. They ran over and told Yudhishthira. He said Duryodhana has been arrested.
Please save him. So initially Bhima was not very eager to save. Bhima said oh at last the gods seem to be favourable to us now.
He said that which we would have had to do at the end of our exile after great effort, the gods have done for us now. Yudhishthira, he was concerned more for, he said for us they may be 100, we may be 5 but for the world we are 105. Now they have arrested Duryodhana.
They have arrested our Kuru ladies. We have to release them. Bhima was not ready.
So then Yudhishthira, although he was very virtuous, Yudhishthira also was a diplomat. Yudhishthira said oh Bhima just think what can give you more joy than to have the power to decide to give to have your greatest enemy dependent on your mercy for his freedom. So go there and grant the freedom to him.
So then Arjuna led the charge and Arjuna defeated the Gandharvas. So here also what happened? The Gandharvas defeated Karna and Arjuna defeated the Gandharvas. So we have 2-0.
Now after this the next encounter happens at can anyone remember? Virat. Arjuna was like a solo performance. He was all alone and he defeated the whole Kuru army.
In that Karna attacked twice and both times Karna was repulsed. It was a clean victory. The whole Kuru army on one side Arjuna on the other side.
And Arjuna single handedly won. So here we have Arjuna 3, Karna 0. Now after this they, for the first 10 days Karna and Arjuna Karna was not fighting. So there was no face off between them.
In the next 5 days there were some face offs between Karna and Arjuna but because Drona was the main person who was attacking at that time, Drona was in command so there was no sustained face off between the two. The major face off was between Karna and Ghatotkach in which Karna killed Ghatotkach and in the process he lost his Shakti weapon also. So now on the 17th day when the final war took place between Karna and Arjuna so actually Karna was the commander for 2 days, 16th and 17th.
So 17th day when they fought the fight was going on fiercely on and on and on and eventually Karna his chariot went underground it got stuck in the ground and he got furious he was telling Shalya get the chariot out Shalya Shalya said I cannot get it out then Karna told Arjuna Oh Partha, do not entertain the thoughts that are entertained by cowards remember the course of morality and wait till I am in the proper situation to fight and he got off his chariot and he was trying to pull the chariot wheel out of the ground so at that time Arjuna beautifully put his bow down and at that time Krishna called out to Karna, Oh Karna it is fortunate that today you remember the course of morality was it the morality by which you suggested that Draupadi be disrobed was it morality by which you called Draupadi a prostitute was it morality by which you conspired to have the Pandavas burned alive was it morality by which you cheated Yudhishthira at the gambling match was it morality by which you joined 5 other warriors in killing the 16 year old Abhimanyu if that was morality Partha will use that same morality and kill you today Arjuna shoot before this when Krishna spoke like this now Karna turned around, Karna’s head fell he had the opportunity to climb back onto the chariot but he did not do that, turned back and tried to lift his wheel again and Arjuna shot an arrow and cut off his head so now if we look at in terms of competence, Arjuna has clearly proven his superiority over Karna then why did Krishna have to get Arjuna to kill Karna like this see the Mahabharata is a very realistic book realistic book means that as I told earlier it talks about Yudhishthira also, Yudhishthira is a Dharma Raj which means he also has a weakness so it does not talk about characters some characters are entirely white and characters are entirely black all its characters have shades of white and black even the white characters have some black and even the black characters have some white so the Mahabharata in terms of morality it also teaches so that it teaches that Shatho Shathyam means with the cunning one needs to be cunning with the cunning one needs to be cunning now if people are cunning and if we are very straightforward and honest with them they simply take advantage of us so especially this is all the more true in politics in politics if one person is very upright and principled and other person is doing all kinds of all kinds of cunning things basically a certain amount of shrewdness is required in politics and the Mahabharata’s morality is centred on the conduct of kings so Krishna wants to demonstrate over here with the cunning one needs to be cunning and was it a violation of Kshatriya code in terms of one unarmed warrior being attacked, unarmed warrior without a chariot being attacked by another warrior who was in a chariot and who was with weapons yes definitely it was a violation of Kshatriya code but again going back to the start of the war what was the agreement the agreement by the Pandavas and Kauravas Pandavas said we will not be the first to violate the Kshatriya codes if you violate then we will not hold ourselves back now if you see this specific Kshatriya code of shooting hitting a warrior who is not on the chariot and who is not having weapons this was done first by the Kauravas on the thirteenth day when they came together and killed Abhimanyu Abhimanyu was chariotless Abhimanyu was weaponless six of them attacked him and they destroyed him made him defenceless made him very vulnerable so on the fourteenth day the Kauravas did the same thing with Arjuna on the fourteenth day Arjuna had taken a vow that before sunset I will kill Jayadratha and he penetrated deep into the Kaurava ranks so the Mahabharata describes that the Kauravas had arranged their whole army to stop Arjuna the military formation was practically males and males and at the end of it was Drona so Arjuna penetrated deep into it forcefully cutting away through that military formation by the time half the day got over and the sun started its downward descent at that time Krishna told Arjuna that so forceful has been this pursuit that oh Arjuna your horses have got tired and they cannot move forward anymore they will need to be rested they will need to be fed so on hearing this Arjuna, god of the chariot Arjuna invoked a mystic weapon and right in the middle of the battlefield itself he created a lake a lake with green grass nearby and Krishna lauded Arjuna oh excellent Martha, excellent and then Krishna took the horses over there now during this point Arjuna was defenceless in terms of Arjuna was not on the chariot he was off the ground now he did not tell the Kauravas, hey stop remember the codes of morality, stop don’t attack me now the Kauravas, Kauravas forces by Kauravas I mean the Kauravas forces just kept attacking him and Arjuna was just going round and round whirling round and whoever would come near him was like they were meeting a wall of arrows and Arjuna held them all back so actually especially after, as long as Bhishma was in command Bhishma more or less maintained the codes of morality but Drona, the Mahabharata also says Drona also got contaminated by the association of Duryodhana to some extent not that he became evil but the goading that Duryodhana did that got to Drona and Drona decided to some extent gave up the ethics, so from the 11th day onwards the codes of morality were not followed so well so in a battle like that no quarters are given and no quarters are to be expected, so Arjuna kept fighting and he held back and then Krishna came back and he got on the chariot and they continued their pursuit of Jayadrath, now on the 17th day itself, same day when Karna and Arjuna were fighting, at that time Karna took a mystic weapon and he shot that mystic weapon towards Arjuna, so now at that time there was Ashwasen who was the son of a snake bird, he was a snake weapon basically he also wanted to take revenge against Arjuna, so he entered into that arrow now when he entered into that arrow that arrow was so powerful it would have killed Arjuna now usually when Arjuna, he was fighting with bow and arrow, he had two strategies, sometimes he would just counter the enemy’s arrows or sometimes he would let the arrows hit him while he was hitting the enemy and he had his faith that my armour is strong enough and my armour can deflect the blow of that arrow, so this was the arrow, he did not recognise that this is a powerful weapon, so he neglected countering it, he kept shooting his own attack without focussing on that arrow now Krishna saw that arrow, this is Ashwasen and Krishna realised that this will kill Arjuna so now what had happened before that when Karna told Shalya, Shalya was a charioteer, I am going to use this arrow and I will kill Karna, I will kill Arjuna so Shalya told shoot Karna, shoot Arjuna in the chest kill him by shooting in the chest now the shooting in the chest the advantage is what, even if you go a little off target, below there is a stomach if you hit the stomach, that is also fatal if you go a little off target, go above there is a neck that is also fatal so if you kill a person by shooting at the chest the chances of killing that person were much more but you know Karna, he wanted not just to win he wanted a classic win it’s like if you kill someone that person falls down, ok that is dying you kill someone and the person’s head flies off and everyone can see the head flying off it’s like you don’t just score the winning run while winning you hit a sixer and you win so Karna wanted to do like that so Karna shot at the neck targeted the neck and Krishna saw that arrow coming Krishna banged his foot heavily on the chariot’s side and as he banged the foot on the chariot’s side the chariot sank into the ground and as the chariot sank into the ground the arrow that was meant to hit Arjuna’s neck, that knocked off his crown, because Arjuna went down and then at that time because the chariot had gone underground so Arjuna was immobilised and Krishna had to get out of the chariot drag the chariot up pull it out, right it and then start fighting during this time Karna kept shooting and Arjuna kept countering so the very same code which Karna said that you are violating and people say that Arjuna had violated but Karna himself had violated it twice he himself had been a part of it when killing Abhimanyu and when attacking Arjuna and third time Arjuna had been targeted by the Kauravas so the Kauravas were basically paid back in their own coin by Partha and they had actually discharged a lot of injustice to them the principle is so here we come to the effect the point is that if the opponents are cunning and if I say I will always stay principled, I will not be shrewd I will not do any of this business then sometimes in this world the results are not determined only by principles I may be a very I may be a very principled sword fighter but if somebody attacks me from behind, my principles are not going to save me I have to turn around and fight so I have to have a guard behind me or I have to be skilled or I have to do whatever it takes so what the Mahabharata says is in terms of effect the effect was that the Kauravas were vicious, the Pandavas were virtuous and for overcoming the vicious whatever is required one should be ready to do that so in terms of effect, if some effect is desired, how we get it that is not as important as we make sure that we get it now this does not mean that anyone can do anything for getting the effect we see the Pandavas tried strenuously to petition peace and to what extent Pandavas tried to petition peace Krishna himself went to petition peace although he officially had no position as the king of Dwaraka but everyone knew he was an extraordinarily powerful warrior and for Krishna himself to go to petition peace to give a rough parallel it is like say India-Pakistan there are some tensions now so when there are some negotiations say the Indian secretary of state goes or the Indian security head goes and the Pakistani security head comes and they talk but suppose the Indian Prime Minister goes to Pakistan to petition peace that means basically what it conveys the post of the person who is going to petition peace the position of the person the stature of that person that conveys how serious that peace petition is and there are also ways of saying no somebody asks us to do something I say sorry I have to do something else so I can’t do this there is a way of saying no where we say no to the request without saying no to the person that means I respect you I would like to do this but because of this I am not able to do it it’s a polite way of saying no and there is a way of saying no where the purpose is not just to say no to the proposal to the request but the purpose is to demean and deride and mock the person so what did Duryodhana do when Krishna went to the peace proposal Duryodhana didn’t just say no I won’t give land I won’t give enough land to even put the tip of a needle through so this is not just refusal this is arrogant refusal this is arrogant refusal so the Pandavas tried everything possible to settle the dispute by peaceful means but once it is not possible then whatever it takes whatever it takes Krishna did that Krishna told the Pandavas to do that so we have to make sure that we get the desirable effect this does not mean that arbitrary morality has to be subordinated or rejected but in exceptional situations if that is required that is what needs to be done in exceptional situations again so now going back one step further so in terms of competences with respect to Duryodhana with respect to Karna we discussed in terms of effect now if we talk about the the the whole idea that Karna was wronged Karna was wronged in the sense that he was born as a Suta and he was never respected as Kshatriya and at the last minute also his chariot went underground and that’s how sometimes people feel that Karna was a victim of destiny so he was victimised life was so unfair to him yes it is true that life was unfair to Karna but the fact is life is unfair to everyone you know if we look at life from this lifetime’s perspective we all can have some grouses maybe I don’t have good enough memory I don’t have good enough looks my parents were not that wealthy or whatever you know we can all have grouses with what we have got in our life life from this life’s perspective is not fair to anyone and why to speak of the Karna specifically look at Pandavas themselves the Pandavas they were born in royalty their father was the king but then suddenly they were thrust into a family conspiracy where their own cousin was trying to kill them now what was their fault because of which they became the target of such malicious envy you could say the Pandavas got a raw deal also although they were recognised as Kshatriyas but they did not get their rights as Kshatriyas they were constantly threatened and actually when Duryodhana was just a small less than a teenager you know 10-11 years old at that time he made a whole conspiracy to have Bhima poisoned can you imagine the extent of insecurity normally at home when we go we go home and then we relax and we eat food that is when we feel comfortable but at your home itself somebody is poisoning you so that was the level of insecurity and danger the Pandavas were at so Pandavas also got a raw deal it is not that Karna alone got a raw deal in their own way now if you see Karna actually got a big starting advantage he got the Kavach and the Kundal so I was telling this point that firstly that if you look from this lifetime’s perspective everybody gets unfair if you look from a broader lifetime’s multi lifetime’s perspective there is a whole story of how Karna was Sahasr Kavach he was a demon in his previous life and he had 1000 Kavachas and after 999 Kavachas had been killed 900 Kavachas had been destroyed he ran and took shelter of Surya and Surya was a Kshatriya so if somebody comes to take shelter he has to give shelter so I am not going into the whole story if I get time later I will go into it I will just give the outline over here so then Surya he had to give shelter to Karna but at that time Surya also did not want to give him shelter so Naranara and Rushis they had been asked to kill this demon Sahasr Kavach and they had removed 900 Kavachas but one Kavacha was remaining so then Surya he gave shelter to Karna but then he also wanted to he didn’t know what to do with Karna with Sahasr Kavacha rather that was the time when Kunti chanted the mantra to invoke Surya and so Karna Surya what he did? Surya gave that Sahasr Kavacha as a son to Kunti so yes now he Kunti did not acknowledge him as her son and that was his problem but as I said Pandavas also had that problem but here they did not get their rightful kingdom although they had deserved it because Duryodhana was malicious so now he had that one Kavacha remaining so and further because he had associated with Surya during that period of transition by that because he was the progeny of Surya and Kunti who both of them were virtuous so he also got some virtues so from his past life he had some vice within him and from this from the persons from whom he got birth, both of them were relatively virtuous, one was a god and one was a virtuous lady so he got some virtue also from there that’s why he is not a completely black character he has virtues but he had that vice also from his previous life so he was actually getting the karma which he got from his previous life if you want to look at that perspective he had to suffer and he had to die and that’s what happened to him in this life but from the point of this birth actually he had a Kavacha and Kundal and that Kavacha practically made him impenetrable, undefeatable the Pandavas were also born from the Devatas but the Pandavas did not have any Kavacha like this so in that sense we could say Karna was not disadvantaged, Karna had advantage he had an impenetrable armour from birth which the Pandavas did not have now as far as he being cursed yes, we see that curses are not uncommon yes he was cursed that his chariot will go under the ground I will not go into the story of the curses but if you see Arjuna was also cursed at least for Karna he had accidentally killed a cow and because the Brahmana said that you are so foolish you have killed a cow, so your chariot will go under the ground at the time of your greatest need now what had happened to Arjuna Arjuna had gone to the heavens and at that time Urvashi had become attracted to him and she came and offered herself to him Arjuna said no, you have been you have been the queen of my ancestor Purva Rava and therefore I see you like my mother she said no, in the heavens these things don’t apply she said no, but you are in heaven I am only temporal in heaven, for me the earthly morality applies so I cannot see you as anything but mother now she was furious for her it was so beautiful that men would come to her to beg her favour and she was offering herself and she was refused she said you are no man you have no manliness in you therefore I curse you that you lose your manliness Arjuna was actually very disturbed hearing this for a Kshatriya his virility is a matter of pride for him and we could say that Arjuna was even more unfairly cursed at least Karna did something wrong, not intentional but he killed a cow actually Arjuna did something which requires great renunciation great self control and yet for that he was cursed so he also got a roddy but what did he do? Arjuna converted that curse into an opportunity so he went to Indra Indra told him this will not be a lifelong curse this will be a one year curse which will act on you and then he said you can choose the timing of when this curse will act on you and he chose that in the Aghyatvas when he became Brihannala so the curse came upon him but he converted it into an opportunity now for Karna he had a curse that his childhood would sink into the ground if you look at it from the practical perspective war is not nothing in a war you have to always be practical so he could very well have chosen that if my chariot is going to sink into the ground I will not use the chariot as a weapon chariot as a vahan, as a carrier he could have used an elephant as a vahan or he could have had spare chariot wheels or he could have prepared for that eventuality in various ways so there is no point in crying that destiny is giving me a roddy destiny gives a roddy to everyone and we have to make choices in our life to actually come to come to an auspicious conclusion now now all this actually despite all this Karna got a very great opportunity and that was just before the Kurukshetra war started and Krishna came as Shanti Geet at that time he saw Duryodhana was not ready to listen then Krishna went to Karna next morning before he was about to leave Krishna went to Karna and he told Karna that actually you are the son of Kunti you are the eldest Pandava you are a virtuous person come on the side of the Pandavas you will become the king and Yudhishthira and all the four Pandavas will follow you some people say that you know Krishna was so devious that Krishna wanted to create a split in the Kaurava ranks and Krishna wanted to allure Karna on his side that’s one way of looking at it but as I said actually Arjuna had already proven his superiority over Karna so it was not that Krishna was Krishna was not confident that Arjuna will be able to defeat Karna or not Krishna’s purpose when he came as Shanti Dood was to avoid bloodshed it was not a fear that we cannot it was not a fear that we can’t win the war it was to avoid bloodshed now when he found that bloodshed cannot be avoided Krishna decided to try the next strategy that is to minimise the bloodshed so he knew among among the Kaurava’s commanders among the Kaurava’s generals the commanders, the ruling main general among the Kaurava generals Bhishma, Drona, Kripa they are all formidable warriors even Ashwatthama, they are formidable warriors but none of them had a strong antipathy towards the Pandavas none of them hated the Pandavas so the Kauravas themselves hated the Pandavas and all the other kings who had joined on their side they were also fighting on fighting on Drona’s behalf but they did not hate the Pandavas so apart from the Kauravas the only person who really had strong feelings against the Pandavas was Karna so if Karna could be won over the the acrimony the hatefulness that was there in the war, that would go down substantially it would go down substantially and thus the bloodshed could be minimised not only that major confidence of Duryodhana to win the war came because of his confidence in Karna’s voice so if Karna was not on his side there is still a chance chance that Duryodhana may call off the war if Karna comes over to Karna is no longer on Duryodhana’s side Duryodhana will not have the confidence who will fight with Partha so Krishna was basically trying to if not avoid bloodshed then minimise the bloodshed and what reason did Krishna give him? Krishna told him that you always felt that you did not get your birth right here is your opportunity for getting your birth right you will become the eldest you will become the ruler of the world so if Karna’s goal was to prove his superiority over Arjuna, Krishna was offering him that also, because Arjuna would accept him as his eldest brother and he would respect him so actually this was an opportunity for Karna to make a right choice what was Karna’s reasoning? oh it is because of Duryodhana’s confidence in me that he has won this war and Duryodhana has given me so much he has given me the kingdom he has given me so many facilities for so long and he says you know I have I have lived with my parents Adhirath and Radhe and I have married and I have children over there I cannot give all of them up now the thing was that this was his own imagination Krishna had never told him to give any of them up now Krishna himself had two sets of parents Krishna himself had Vasudev and Nanda and he had Vasudev Devaki and Nanda and Vasudha so Karna could also have had that way nobody was telling Karna that you have to give up your parents Krishna’s request was don’t fight on Duryodhana’s side now there was no intrinsic connection between Duryodhana and Adhirath and Radhe Karna’s parents so Karna did not have to give up his parents but Karna sort of got confused this is where I have lived this is where my position is I cannot give it up now here we are looking at intent, content and effect so here what happened to Karna his reasoning was Duryodhana has given me so much how can I be ungrateful to him but the problem with this reasoning is not only that Duryodhana has given me so much but also that I have given my word that I will fight on the side of Duryodhana how can I dishonour my word so let’s look at these two reasonings first is that Duryodhana had done so much for him yes I discussed earlier it was not Duryodhana’s kingdom to give but still if you assume that Duryodhana has given the kingdom then if somebody has done good for us it is good that we be grateful to them but any virtue has to be in proportion say to give a provocative example say especially in Pakistan and Afghanistan the two Islamic countries where there is not much oil wealth so there is lot of poverty over there and say there is some young child who has been starving on the verge of death and then some group of terrorists come and feed him, clothe him and take care of all his needs and he is on the verge of death and he is saved at that time and he feels so grateful to them you have saved my life without you I would have died so I will give my life for you at that time for him those people who gave him food, clothing, shelter they will just seem like good Samaritans they are just people who have done so much good for me but as he grows up and he recognises these people what do they want me to do they want me to kill innocent people they want me to become a murderer of innocent people so does my gratitude to them oblige me to kill innocent people no gratitude is a virtue but gratitude also has to be seen in the context of a broader picture of what am I doing in my life so Karanath’s gratitude to Durudhana is laudable but when Durudhana is so vicious that he is ready to strip Draupadi naked in a public assembly if such a person gets untrammelled power what can such a person do in society as long as Durudhana was ruling he did not really do anything he ruled well he did not do any unrighteous activities but that was a strategy because he wanted to win over the citizens he wanted to win over the courtiers because his hold on the kingdom was insecure the Pandavas were going to come back and he was in one sense by giving gifts by being charitable he was winning their favour but once the threat of the opposition of the Pandavas would be gone there would be nothing to stop him from acting tyrannically acting autocratically so he had exhibited his vicious nature in trying to destroy Draupadi and he would have done far worse things later so here we see that he had tried to burn the Pandavas he had dishonoured their wife, he had tried to poison them so he was definitely a dangerous person and Karna’s gratitude to Durudhana was good but it did not oblige him to go along with all of Durudhana’s schemes so that is where he went wrong. Gratitude means yes, I am grateful to someone, that person does something for me, I do something for them. It is not that lifelong I have to become bound to them and do whatever they are doing his second reasoning was, I have given my word as a Kshatriya how can I go against my word yes, that is, the word of honour is important for Kshatriyas and at the same time you know again, the word of honour, why is it important going back to intent, content and effect you know, Kshatriyas have a lot of power and if they have power and they can misuse their power and if they misuse their power, it can cause terrible consequences.
So one of the ways in which there is an inbuilt protection system, is that Kshatriyas are taught very deeply that you are only your value, your esteem your prestige depends on your word and therefore, if they make promises, they make for example, when they swore into power they give a word of honour, they take a wow so what happens is, the word of honour or rather, giving a lot of honour to one’s word is the way Kshatriyas are trained to act honourably it’s like, if I make a promise to someone, you give me this much money, I’ll give it back to you but if I have a lot of power I may just refuse to give money to that person and that person will be powerless to do anything else but if I have a sense of honour, I have given you my word I’ll give you the money, I’ll give it back to you so basically, giving a high regard to one’s word of honour that is the means by which Kshatriyas are inspired to act honourably the word of honour is itself not the ultimate end the word of honour is meant to inspire one to act honourably so otherwise, people are so fickle it’s like, they speak one promise and then, even before the promise has gone out of their mouth, they’ve forgotten the promise also that’s how many politicians are unfortunately today but the word of honour is important, no doubt so, now what happens is the word of honour is again a virtue and it is meant to solidify the intent yes, I will act honourably but again, the purpose of the word of honour is a life of honour that one acts honourably and lives honourably but for Karna here, the word of honour was not going to lead to a life of honour if he said, I will stick to my word the result would be that he would have to fight on the side of Adharma by fighting on the side of Adharma he would be killed and he would cause a terrible war to happen so for him, actually the choice was between the word of honour and the life of honour by going over to the Pandava’s side he would be acting according to virtue and he would be actually living a life of honour so here, his mistake was that instead of choosing the life of honour he chose the word of honour so word of honour is important but word of honour is not important in itself word of honour is meant to lead to a life of honour unfortunately, he neglected that aspect and he made that as an end in itself and thus, at that time when he said, now he was so totally so completely lost that he said, I know that Durudhana is going to lose this war the Kauravas are going to be killed Bhima will kill Durudhana and Arjuna will kill me the dice which Shakuni has cast against the Pandavas that is going to come back as the arrows of the Gandiva and the Kauravas are going to be killed by it but he said, I cannot give up my word so at that time, Krishna embraced Karna and he said this is where one is meant to be destroyed then one’s intelligence is also destroyed he says, now we’ll meet next on the war so actually this was Karna’s opportunity for redemption when Krishna offered him everything that he dreamt of everything that he aspired for Krishna said, you’ll get it all but Karna rejected it so Karna was not just a wronged person Karna was also a wronged person he was wronged by life in many ways but as I said, everyone is wronged in life but the wrong things that happen to us don’t justify wrong actions on our side we still have the choice and we still have the obligation to act rightly unfortunately when the big moment came for Karna instead of acting rightly he acted wrongly and that’s why everything that we do in our life we always have to see it in terms of the ultimate purpose this is the ultimate purpose being served by this so what happened is he took the word of honour as the ultimate thing rather than seeing the word of honour as a means to a life of honour and that was his unfortunate blunder and the consequence of it he got on the 17th day in the war and actually when Karna fell the war practically ended Shalya became the commander the next day but soon he was also destroyed and then Duryodhana was killed so Karna’s death is on a tragic note in the Mahabharata he is a heroic figure but he is a tragic figure and the tragedy is not just because of what happened to him that is true but it is also because of what he did so both ways the adverse things that happened to him but adverse things happen to everyone in the epics, the puran itihasas are filled with adversities happening to people what was Ram’s fault because of which he was exiled what was Sita’s fault because of which she was kidnapped what was Urmila’s fault because of which she had to live without her husband for so many years the whole purpose of scripture is to show by example how to respond to adversity with integrity adversity comes in our life but when adversity comes how to respond with integrity that is what scripture teaches us and the Pandavas also got adversity they responded appropriately Karuna got adversity unfortunately when the crunch moment came he did not respond right and that was what sealed his fate so it was not fate that sealed his fate it was not some adverse destiny that caused him to be killed rather it was his own choice by which he sealed his fate so I will summarise you can have some questions after that I started by talking about how rightness and wrongness of actions can be decided from three perspectives does anyone remember intent intent, content and effect so I discussed about basically for all these things medical example just because I want to heal a person doesn’t mean that intent is good enough I have to have the medical training so intent alone is not enough if you consider content I might be a very good surgeon I can do the right surgery but if I do the surgery in a way that I aggravate the patient so that I can earn more money the content is good but the effect is not good over there the patient is becoming sicker so intent, content and effect all three have to work out together for a thing to be good and in different situations one of these may be given priority so then we discussed with respect to Karna Karna was in an emotionally vulnerable situation because he was not accepted for what he was he was derided as a suta and at that time in Duryodhana accepted him honoured him then he was won over and his intent was just to have a friend who would give him a forum where he would exhibit his archery skills but later on that intent did not remain that way because of the bad association of Duryodhana the desire to please him he also acted viciously especially in the Kuru assembly with Draupadi and thus our association determines our intent if we have good intention but not good association the good intention will not last for long and then in terms of content we discussed about how Duryodhana, sorry Karna and Arjuna Arjuna’s competence was greater than Karna’s so Karna actually was outclassed by Arjuna thrice before their final war and in Virat in the fight with Dharvas and in the fight with Drupada and then in terms of effect we discussed that actually the the whole Kurukshetra war which was extremely extremely violent bloody affair that could have been avoided or at least minimised if Karna had made the right choice so Karna’s misdirected loyalty was his mistake because of which he stuck on to the side of vice so his gratitude initially is good but eventually does gratitude doesn’t mean that lifelong his indenture to someone who is whatever they are doing so to someone no matter what they do it’s like a child committing to a life of terror just because of terrorist saved him in the time of need that’s disproportionate and Karna got a raw deal in life but from this lifetime’s perspective everybody gets a raw deal sometime or the other Pandavas also got a raw deal in the sense that they were thrust into a place where they did not they had an envious brother or cousin who was ready to kill them and they were just not allowed to do anything peacefully they were not given their administrative rights they also got a raw deal so everybody gets a raw deal but how we respond to it is important and Karna he was a wrong hero but at the same time he was also a wrong hero and his big wrong was that when Krishna offered him the opportunity to win to come to the Pandavas side and get everything that he dreamt of unfortunately he chose not to take it so the word of honour is meant to inspire us towards a life of honour but Karna chose a word of honour at the cost of a life of honour and thus he was doomed not by some adverse fate but by his own wrong choice thank you very much are there any questions or comments yes ok so when Karna leaves his body at that time Krishna is said to have come and asked Karna for his punya see there is the Mahabharata that is written by Vyasadeva and after that there are many other retellings of Mahabharata and in many of these later retellings Karna is cast often more and more in a heroic mode so there is no indication of this in the original Mahabharata so it’s not that all later retellings are wrong but we have to see whether the later retellings embellish the original story who has told those retellings and whether they embellish the original story or they contradict or go against the original story so the overall mood of Krishna is at that time to highlight that Karna is an offender and Karna deserves to be punished so from the mood of the Mahabharata that Krishna will go and ask Karna for his punya it’s not compatible over there so we see that as later later retelling that is not in harmony with the original story that’s why we don’t accept it as bona fide and Vyasadev definitely not in Vyasadev’s Mahabharata no not at all who was Karna who was Karna in his previous birth he was a demon named Sahasra Kavacha Sahasra Kavacha he was given a benediction that he would have a thousand Kavachas on his body and unless all the thousand Kavachas would be destroyed he would not be killed but the problem was whoever would kill one who would destroy one Kavacha that person would die so then how to kill him so then Narnara and Rishi were tasked with, they took up the task Narnara and Rishi they are two persons but they are one person who are in two forms you could say so what would happen Nara would fight with Sahasra Kavacha and he would break one Kavacha and Nara would fall dead at that time but then at that time when Nara would fall dead Narayan would Narayan would take up the mantle so so actually they had if the person would fall dead they had the capacity to revive the person who would die but even if you revive the person still the person who has to kill Sahasra Kavacha that person has to have do Tapasya for a thousand years so how they would do it is one of them would keep fighting for a thousand years other person would do Tapasya for a thousand years and then when they finally break the Kavacha that person would fall dead and the second person who has done austerity he would get out of the austerity by that thousand year Tapasya he would get the potency to revive the first person and then start fighting again and he would fight for a thousand years destroy his Kavacha and then he would fall down and then again he would rise so it is a long arduous battle so it is a formidable demon and it would be undefeatable before it would wreak havoc and then one Kavacha was remaining and with that one Kavacha the person who was born is known as Karna so how to see one way he was trying to broker a peace another side he wanted to these people they were burden to the earth they were to be eliminated so how to hmm yeah so at one side the Bhagavata says that Krishna said I descend to destroy the Dushkrutinas but other side it is said that we see that Krishna went to see seek peace so did he want to destroy the Dushkrutinas or did he want to have peace with them actually this goes down to the deeper philosophical question of God’s omniscience and human free will you know if God knows everything including the future then do I really have free will it means if God knows the future then God knows how I am going to answer the question then if God knows how I am going to answer the question then am I really choosing to answer that question so this is a fundamental philosophical question and the answer to that is that God’s knowledge of the future is like our knowledge of the past what that means is it is knowledge without intervention it is like today morning I wanted to wake up at 4 o’clock but I woke up at 4.30 I know it but I can’t go back and change it now I woke up late so it is knowledge without intervention so God also his knowledge of the future is knowledge without intervention that means he actually exists outside the time domain so he is outside this cause effect change cause effect chain and so basically if we make this choice this consequence will be there if we make this choice this consequence will be there if we make this choice this consequence will be there but which choice we are to make that is up to us Krishna doesn’t determine that so if there is intervention then that means he would be determining so so he doesn’t intervene so God’s knowledge of the future is like our knowledge of the past it is knowledge without intervention so now moving forward applying this specifically to the Mahabharata context see Krishna’s purpose if we see if we look at grammatically every sentence has a thrust so the other day I was giving an example that how just by changing the sentence slightly we can completely change the emphasis of the sentence now if we want to praise someone he had some problems in the past but he is stable now but if you want to slide that person he is stable now but he had problems in the past the same statement I just gave a different tilt what I emphasised so like that when we look at a sentence grammatically what is the emphasis so Krishna’s purpose is not to paritranaya sadhuna minashaya sunushrita dharma samsthapanarthaya sambhavami yukti his purpose is not to destroy the dushkrtis his purpose is to establish dharma so if the dushkrtis can be reformed and dharma can be established that’s also fine that serves his purpose so if Duryodhana had been ready to come back to live dharmically then Krishna was ready to forgive which is the same principle we see that Ram sends a peace proposal to Ravana he says if you give Sita back there will be no fight so Ram has actually come to destroy Ravana in one sense that Ravana is a terrible demon why is Ram giving a peace proposal basically Ravana if he acknowledges that Ram is so powerful that he can’t fight with him and he returns Sita then his demoniac actions are curbed so it’s not necessary that the bloodshed has to happen for dharma to be established so Krishna makes all efforts to avoid the bloodshed, his purpose is to establish dharma but the Mahabharata demonstrates a principle that is actually standard in military operations the principle is try for the best prepare for the worst so try for the best try for a solution without any bloodshed at all but while Krishna was going to Shanti Duta the Pandavas were also going forming alliances with the other kings so because Duryodhana had already been forming alliances for 13 years so try for the best but prepare for the worst so Krishna was trying for the best by going to Shanti Duta in his ultimate purpose of trying to establish dharma so when did Kunti reveal to Karna, yes it was before the war in fact actually this is way before the war when Kunti realises that now the war has become inevitable Krishna’s peace mission has failed at that time she goes and she desires that when she first saw Karna enter the martial exhibition and she saw his Kundal and Kavachi this is my son, she was so delighted but before she could do anything to acknowledge him, to meet him suddenly she fall before her eyes what is probably a mother’s worst nightmare to see her two sons become lifelong enemies and at least at that point she hoped that they were just rivals, not enemies the rivals means there is a skill in which both of them are trying to excel but enemies means you are out to kill each other but when the war took place when the final war became inevitable at that time she decided I have to do something to save Karna and that’s why she went to Karna and told him that you are she knew Karna was charitable and she wanted to get Karna to avoid the war she told him that you are the son of, you are my eldest son she basically offered the same thing that Krishna offered to him but he refused and actually again he refused now it was it was not that some people Kunti asked him don’t kill my other sons Kunti did not ask him like that now what Karna he was also very reputation conscious because at one level because he was a sutra he was not given adequate honour so he always wanted to maintain his good name and for that purpose he wanted to make sure that no one could ever cast an aspersion on his charitable nature so he said you have come to ask me something I will not let you go empty handed you will always have five sons and as he said I will kill Arjuna or he will kill me but other Pandavas I will not kill so it is true that he kept on his word on the 16th he had an opportunity to attack and kill the other Pandavas he did not kill them that is his virtue but again he did not do what his mother told him to do and that was again a part of his wrong choice after their death when Kunti revealed to Yudhishthir and others that Karna was their brother after their death actually Karna told her don’t reveal to the Pandavas and he felt that the war was inevitable and he wanted to fight he didn’t want Arjuna to be weakened he wanted to have the test of their skills if Arjuna had known Arjuna would not have fought against his elder brother Yudhishthir would not have allowed them to fight against their elder brother so he told her don’t tell them and after the war when Kunti told Yudhishthir she was furious why did you not tell this to me before but it was at that time she told him did Karna ever feel that he had made a wrong choice by fighting on the side of the Kauravas well see the Mahabharata does not really give us insights into the thoughts of the characters only when we look at their words we come to know some things now as far as words are concerned he definitely regrets his actions in dishonouring Draupadi and he tells Arjuna Krishna at that time when Krishna and Karna meet for the last time when Krishna has gone to Shantidute he says that that I had a dream in this dream I saw that Yudhishthir was dressed in white clothes he was in a chariot driven by white horses he was rising upwards with a crown on his head and I saw Duryodhana dressed in black with a shaved head and he was driven by a he was in a cart drawn by arses and that was moving downwards so basically he interpreted that dream to mean that Yudhishthir was going to be successful and Duryodhana was going to die and he himself tells the meaning of that and he says that I am going to die in this war so in that sense he knew that he was trying to die but he was convinced that what he was doing was the right thing so as far as I have read I have not seen anywhere where Karna regrets his choice that is actually that is often a problem that when it’s like I talked earlier about moral crisis and ethical crisis moral crisis means the right choice and there is a wrong choice but I don’t have the moral strength to make the right choice say if somebody offers me money to to fudge some medical results then I just have to resist the lure of money I know that this is wrong and I will not do it or I know this is wrong but somehow I do it or at least I know it is wrong but when there is ethical crisis that means there are two choices both seem to be right which is more right which is of a higher level of rightness that is what is to be decided sometimes when people are convinced that they are right then they just become blind to the other perspective so people rarely do wrong as cheerfully as regretlessly as when they are convinced by their as when they are convinced by their beliefs that they are right so he had the idea that I am right so this is the right thing for me to do that is his misfortune so he did not listen to the counsel of others so I said Karna chose his fate but can we say that that choice was his fate see here we have to understand that the word fate can have multiple meanings usually the word fate means like something unfortunate is happening that was his fate on a fateful day that means on a day when something terrible is going to happen so usually destiny refers to what happens to us whereas our free will is how we respond to what happens to us destiny determines what happens to us our free will determines how I respond to it so two people may you know we may get the same sickness same germ may affect them or same sickness two people may get the same sickness and one person may just get resentful frustrated, depressed the other person may look at the bright side at least the sickness is diagnosed I have a good doctor, I’ll be treated soon, I’ll be cured so what happens to us is determined we cannot say that our choice is destined our choice is up to us in the Vedanta Sutra commentary by Bhavinde Bhushan there he quotes the previous Vedanta Sutra commentators and he says that if we say that our choice is determined if our choice is destined then he says scripture becomes meaningless because scripture tells us do this and don’t do this if you do this you’ll get good if you do this you’ll get bad therefore do this and don’t do this when scripture is telling us do this and don’t do this that means we have the capacity to do this and not do this so scripture will become meaningless if our choices were destined we can say that we are prompted towards certain choices, we are pushed towards certain choices but we are not forced pushing means somebody can push me in this direction but I can hold and push back so like that all of us based on our past habits, past conditionings we are pushed towards certain actions so person who is habitually eating meat, person who is again pushed to eat meat person’s higher intelligence awakens person’s conscience awakens, person says no I don’t want to eat this anymore so no one can say that I was fated to make this choice can say that I was fated to come under this circumstance but what I do in that circumstance is up to me now as far as Bhishma’s Iccha Mathyu is concerned it was that he chose the moment of his death but it is not that even in his case it was not that he was destined to die at a particular time he was going to die he had chosen to fight against the Kauravas against the Pandavas that means he would have to die his choice was the exact moment of the death so even in his case it was not that his choice was destined, he chose to fight on the side of the Kauravas yes how many soldiers were there on each side of the of the Kauravas and Pandavas see usually in scripture whenever you get into figures there is always a source of confusion every book has its purpose and we need to keep that purpose in mind whenever we study scripture scripture is itihas but it is not itihas of the it is not history of the kind that we understand as modern history modern historiography it started from post-newtonian times post-newtonian times means Newton from his time onwards when science started focussing more on measurable quantifiable things then exact dates, exact figures exact numbers started becoming very important and in history also became more and more all about exact figures if we look at even say Homer and other people in Rome who wrote historical books for them history was to be written or recited not exactly for factual precision history was to be studied and repeated for the sake of moral elevation that is the primary purpose and that’s why people would not get particularly obsessed about specific figures so the Mahabharata does talk about figures at different levels so one level of course we know that the 18 Akshahunis but then the count of Akshahunis is given and later on when Yudhisthira was asked or rather Dhritarashtra asked Yudhisthira how many casualties were given the figure that is given over there seems to be much bigger when it talks about it’s not 18 Akshahunis as we know what is the count of Akshahunis so some explanation of that is that these 18 Akshahunis were the Akshahunis of humans but along with that there were Rakshasas on both sides also on the Pandavas side there was Bhima’s son Ghatotkach who had brought Rakshasas with him and similarly on the Kauravas side there was a Rakshasa Alambush who was the brother of Bakasur not the Bakasur of Krishnela the Bakasur whom Bhima had killed and he had also brought many Rakshasas so like that this 18 Akshahunis refers primarily to human soldiers and there were non-human soldiers also who were fighting and their count is separate but broadly speaking getting into figures is quite often a source of distraction and confusion and Srila Prabhupada did not get into this so much in the 10th-11th chapters of the first canto of Srimad Bhagavatam there is a description of how Krishna leaves Hastinapur and comes to Dwarka and the path is described Krishna came through this city, this city, this city, this city and finally he came there and then Prabhupada writes the purport over there that actually historians or scholars may try to find the exact path by which Krishna came to Dwarka that is almost an impossible task because the surface of the earth geosurface geology always keeps changing they can do the research but as far as we are concerned we are simply satisfied that Krishna has come to Dwarka and is going to perform pastimes with his devotees now so sometimes one sign of intelligence is to know what is central and to know what is peripheral and to hold on to the central and to not hold on to the peripheral so in scriptural study the exact figures are not very important the important thing is what are the situations what are the decisions what are the ethics for making those decisions that is what is important in scripture and if we keep that purpose in mind we can avoid a lot of distraction if somebody wants to go in a specialised field and maybe do historical research of the Mahabharata that is fine, they can do that but there is a different forum see we have very limited time and we have to focus on the things in scripture that will inspire us to grow in our bhakti and other things sometimes can take so much time that we get distracted by those things so best is not to focus too much on facts and figures this is not to say that facts and figures are not true or facts and figures are not given the point is the focus the focus is that we want to learn how to evolve in our spiritual life better human beings, better devotees and we want to learn how to move towards Krishna so shall we stop here thank you very much