Net Surfing or Net Suffering?

[Talk at Ohio State University, Columbus, USA]

Video:

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Am I audible behind? So, I thank all of you for coming today evening.
And, as I mentioned, I will speak on the topic of Net Surfing or Net Suffering. And, I will start with, I will talk in three parts. What this title means and how it is relevant to us.
Then, I will talk more about inner dimensions. What is it that makes us misdirected in our use of powerful technologies such as the internet? And, how, in the last part of this session, discuss how we can empower ourselves internally to make the best of whatever is available to us externally. So, a few years ago, at least one year ago, in India, there were several young people who committed suicide because of an online game that they were playing.
Some of you may have heard of it. This was a game called the Blue Whale Challenge in which young people were prompted to do various kinds of things involving self-torture. Marking their bodies, hurting themselves.
And, to be a winner in that game, they ultimately ended up committing suicide. And, then there were proposals, there was a great alarm, there were proposals to ban the game eventually. But, it raised a serious question.
These were young, educated kids. With bright futures ahead of them. And, just to try to prove themselves as winners on some game somewhere online.
Why would anyone want to end their lives? It was, at one level, a mystery. So, another level, if we go, we all live in a world where we are threatened to become an insignificant statistic among the teeming millions. We all are searching for self-worth and self-identity.
We’re all looking for what is it that will make our life worth living. And, we all need a sense of validation. I was just, a few weeks ago in Silicon Valley and there I was talking with a child specialist, growth specialist.
And, she was telling me that children who grow up in loving environments, they have a high sense of self-esteem. Whereas, children who grow up in a critical environment, they tend to have severe self-esteem issues. Why is that? The person is who he is, who he or she is.
But, we usually understand ourselves by seeing how we are reflected in the eyes of others. So, for a child, the parents are the most important people. The family is meant to be a sanctuary.
But, if there they get criticism, they get negativity, they get unhealthy comparisons, then, in that mirror, they see themselves negatively. And, this causes insecurity. So, our self-esteem comes by how we see ourselves in the mirrors that are held in front of us.
In childhood, it is the family and the parents that hold a mirror in front of us. When we grow into teenage or youth, at that time, not only is there a self-esteem issue, there is also an issue of which mirror should we be looking at in order to determine what is my self-worth. When we become adults, at that time, we have our own degrees, we have our own jobs.
So, we have our own sense of identity. But, when we are children, our sense of identity is usually tied to our parents. So and so is this person’s son, this person’s daughter.
But, in between, when we come to the teenage years, at that time, we are too old to be satisfied simply with the identity based on our parental connection. At the same time, we are not old enough to have developed our own identity. And at that time, is a time of great insecurity and vulnerability wherein we are trying to find our own place in the world.
We are trying to find who we are and what we are meant to do. And this is often the time of rebellion. Rebellion against whatever authority we have had, whether it is parental, familial and we try to create our own identity.
Mark Twain is a British author and he said that when I was 15, my father was a fool. Now I am 25 and I am amazed how much the old guy has learned in the last 10 years. It is not that the father has learned in 10 years, he may have also learned, but it is that our understanding of what it means to be wise, that changes.
At 15 it is something else, at 25 it is something else. So when we are yet to find our place and purpose in the world, that is a time of great insecurity. And in today’s world of social media, of alienation where often the digital connections are seen as more important than the personal human connections.
We get our sense of self-identity or sense of validation through digital means. If I post a photo of myself on Instagram, how many people view the photo? How many people like the photo? A lot of people like, that’s good. Nobody likes, what’s wrong? I feel as if something is wrong with me.
So the number of our Facebook friends determines the sense of our self-worth. So our self-worth in a digital world is reduced to a digital figure. It may be the figure if we make a YouTube video of ourselves, how much YouTube views it gets.
Or if we have a Facebook, how many friends we have. You put a photo on Instagram, how many views it gets. So these are the means by which we seek validation.
Now, this sort of validation is at one level, unavoidable. Because when we grow, we’ll have a job and people when they want to interview for a job, they’re going to look at our Facebook profile. They’re going to look at these things.
So seeking to put our best image online is perfectly fine. But letting that alone determine our self-conception, that can be extremely dangerous. Why dangerous? Because when we let ourselves become emotionally invested in something which is just basically mediated through complicated technological networks, which is dependent on unpredictable people’s moods, we set ourselves up for great insecurity.
Sometimes we ourselves might go to crazy extents to somehow do something attractive, which will get some likes online. One of the dare-devilish things that people do is to try to take their selfies in dangerous backgrounds. There’s a train coming back on the road behind you and we’re on the tracks and we take a photo right behind you.
Train is about to come. Just before the train comes, we jump off. So, I was just a couple of weeks ago in Stanford and there I spoke on the topic of the missing self in the selfie.
So, this is also another real life incident, tragic incident actually. There was this group of friends who went to a swimming place and they were swimming and enjoying and then they clicked a YouTube photo of all of them, YouTube video. And they were so busy clicking it.
And then they came out and they came out, they looked and they noticed one of their friends was missing. And they started searching, they couldn’t find it. At that time, one of the friends was just replaying the video which they had shot and they saw while all of them were posing for the video there was this friend who was drowning and he was calling out.
Somehow something happened. His mouth was moving but no sound came out. And everybody was so caught in looking at the photo that nobody noticed that he was drowning.
They ran back but by that time they had already drowned. So, in the infatuation of looking good on a video that we are going to share on social media, we may either risk our own lives by trying to take dangerous photos or we may miss on something important which might save someone else’s life. So, this same sense of validation when we get it through online likes that can make us do extreme things also such as to commit suicide just to win a game online such as the blue whale challenge.
So, while that, this sort of extreme examples may not be that common. Actually, I speak at universities across the world and especially when I speak on the topic of selfies, I ask students, how many of you have tried to pose in dangerous locales to get a photo of yourself a selfie of yourself? And every audience there are few students who acknowledge they have done that. So, it’s not that uncommon also.
But beyond that actually we surf on the net to find information, to develop connections, to gain some stimulation in our lives. But that same net surfing can lead to net suffering if we get hooked to it, if we get addicted to it. Technology, every new avenue that it has opened for us, it has also brought challenges with it.
So, internet has opened a whole world of information for us. But it has also opened a whole world of illusion where we could just spend hours and hours just clicking, clicking, clicking. You forget important things, just keep clicking on the net and then you get distracted endlessly.
One social critic has said that in today’s world people are distracted from distraction by distraction. I am studying one thing while studying, something pops up on my computer I start looking at that. And before I finish looking at that I am distracted from that by something else.
That itself is a distraction. But I am distracted from distraction by distraction. So, it becomes an endless trap sometimes.
There is a boy in Thailand who was 71 hours surfing on the net continuously. And he was so caught in surfing that he forgot to eat, forgot to sleep. And finally he got a stroke and collapsed on the same computer screen on which he was surfing.
Fortunately, his friend was there in the nearby room he heard the sound and came and called emergency and he was saved. So, now what is it that makes us vulnerable to using or misusing the powerful technologies available to us? At one level, I said it was the sense of self-validation that we look for. But what is it, what is this self-validation what is the self that seeks validation? And what is it that makes us vulnerable to distraction? So, to understand this I would like to do a simple thought experiment.
So, wherever you are sitting, you can just sit comfortably and close your eyes. And with me you can take 3 deep breaths. 1 2 3 Now, with your eyes closed just look ahead of you and see what you can see.
As your eyes are closed you may not be able to see what is outside but still inside you you will see various images. It’s as if there is an inner screen on which you may see a picture of this room or you may see a picture of your your room where you are staying you may see a picture of your bike or car you may see an image of your loved one you may see an image of food if you are hungry you may see various images coming and going or you may see just a dull colourless haze but still you see something as if on an inner screen and that may keep changing. Now, while you are looking at that inner screen try to take a step back and look for who is looking at that inner screen.
You are looking at an inner screen. Take a step back and try to look for who is it that is looking at the inner screen. No matter how many steps you take backwards the inner seer steps back with you.
What you are looking for is what you are looking with. That inner seer is you. The inner screen is your mind.
You can take one deep breath and you can open your eyes. So, right now when you are looking at me and I am looking at you we have the inner seer the inner screen and the outer scene. All these three are in one line and the inner screen now acts like a window which helps us to see what is there on the outer scene.
Sometimes, however, this inner screen can act like a TV and it starts showing us something else. So, sometimes it may show us what happened in the past, what happened in the future and in this way we may get distracted. So, when we say we are talking with someone and suddenly they say, Earth to you, Earth to you.
Oh, I am sorry, I was distracted. So, what happens over there? Physically we are there but the inner screen starts displaying something else. So, we at our core are spiritual beings.
We are the inner seer and our mind is the inner screen and outside is the outer scene. Now, the mind is meant to be the integrator and presenter of the inputs from the outer world. We have five knowledge acquiring senses the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue and the skin and through all these inputs come in from the outer world.
So, you could imagine a high security building where there is a security centre, control office where there is a big monitor and say this building has five doors to it. At each door there is a CCTV, closed circuit TV with a camera and the camera inputs are coming to the main monitor. When they come to the main monitor there is the security in charge who is sitting and watching.
Now, all these windows will be small five windows say are there on this big monitor and as soon as the security in charge sees anything suspicious on there, they click on that screen and that window zooms out. What is going on? Similarly for us, we can say our mind is like that big monitor on which these five windows are there. They are the inputs from the five senses.
So, for example, right now you are hearing what I am saying. So, you could say the sound window is zoomed up. You are of course looking also so the eyes window is also there.
But suppose right now there is, say from behind the aroma of some delicious food item comes. Then immediately the fragrance window will zoom up. And then even if you are here you will not be able to hear because the sound window has got minimised.
What is this fragrance? What is this food item? When will I get it? The mind will go off on imagination. And imagination means what happens? Some window opens up and images keep flashing on that window. So, for us just as we get distracted by technology externally, we get distracted at the level of the mind primarily.
When we are trying to function, we need to have the right window zooming up at the right time. So, if we are driving and we are talking with someone while driving if we are talking with the other person and suddenly they speak something shocking then our eyes are fixed on the road ahead but suddenly the sound window zooms up. And we are off course.
So, basically for us to function the right window needs to be maximised and other windows need to be minimised. Now, of course, the mind works very fast and momentarily some window may zoom up and we may give it some thought. Say for example, right now you may hear the sound of the door opening.
And, ok, somebody must have come. Now, if you are expecting someone, then you will turn around and look back. But if you are not expecting anyone, ok, you just acknowledge that perception has come, it popped up for a moment but then you let it pop back again, let it get minimised again.
So, we are capable of processing inputs quite fast. But still, we are not always conscientiously in control of which window gets maximised. So, if we get addicted to something suppose a person becomes addicted to alcohol then they may go to school.
In the school, the teacher is in front of them, the teacher is giving a talk but in their mind the alcohol window is zoomed up. They are trying to study, trying to hear but nothing goes in. So, the more we get attached to something that window tends to zoom up more and more.
And inside our mind, if the wrong window starts zooming up and stays zoomed up, then that makes us dysfunctional. In today’s world, a lot of people suffer from mental health problems. In fact, according to statistics, one out of every four persons suffers from mental health issues.
During the course of their life, one out of every four persons will go through a phase of two weeks when they will contemplate suicide. It’s very grim. So now, among the various mental health challenges the two primary are depression and anxiety.
Now, generally speaking, if you see, depression is related with the past. So, when we are going through life if some past window zooms up you know, I did this but that didn’t work out I tried this relationship but it went wrong I tried to get in this college but I didn’t get in So, all the past wrongs that have happened in our life they keep zooming up. And when they keep zooming up, we can’t tap the present opportunities and also for the future we think the future will be the same old story from the past.
And depression saps our physical energy by burdening us mentally with constantly replaying images of the past. Conversely, anxiety burdens us with constantly replaying images of the future of a dire future. It is said that our life is filled with terrible events most of which never happen.
We dread this may go wrong, that may go wrong, that may go wrong if you look at all the things we worry about actually very few of them happen but when there is anxiety disorder at that time when we are too much into anxiety the future window starts zooming up. So, the mind is meant to be like a screen to help us see the outer world but the mind becomes like a time machine and a time machine it takes us either into the past or into the future and in this way it distorts our perception So, just as surfing the unnecessary or unwanted windows on the net can be harmful to us, surfing the unwanted windows in the monitor of the mind can be even more harmful to us. So, internally we are constantly surfing what to hear, what to watch, what to think of and if we surf the wrong windows then we end up suffering most of the times if we see the problems which we face the problems of today are always manageable today but on the mind screen the problems of today get multiplied with the problems of yesterday and the problems of tomorrow If I have to carry a 5 kg bag, I can do it but if I have to carry a 50 kg bag or if I have to carry 10 5 kg bags that is going to be much more difficult So, that’s how when multiple unwanted images start playing on the mental screen they demoralise us they sap our mental energy and thus we end up suffering internally although we may be quite comfortable externally Now, what is the solution to this? The solution is broadly in two phases One is that we need to understand that we are not the movie on the screen we are the observer of that and we can choose whether to observe it or to not observe it Suppose we are at the airport and say there is a horror movie going on in the waiting area in the airport Now, we can choose to watch it or we can choose not to watch it So, if this is an exercise which you can do later when you go back home that if there is some unhealthy image that keeps rippling in your mind causing you resentment, frustration, discouragement and just close your eyes and envision that as an image that is being played on your inner screen and then as it is being played Just pick it up and put it in the corner of the screen And how do we put it on the corner of the screen? By focussing on something more positive So, the spiritual wisdom traditions of the world explain to us that we at our core are spiritual beings and as spiritual beings at our core we are indestructible So, first when we distance ourselves from the image understand this is not reality this is just an image that is being played on the screen of my mind just think that way that creates some distance, that creates some security and second is understand who am I I am a spiritual being, I am indestructible understanding this gives us greater strength I’ll conclude with one example last year when I had come here to America in last fall, I was in Florida at that time the hurricane Irma hit Florida so one of my friends was also in Florida in a retreat he was staying at one house, doing some work, writing a book so while he was just disconnected from the whole world because he wanted to focus on writing and because the hurricane came, everybody left from there vacated, but he was disconnected from the world one day he just came to the window and saw this complete blackout everywhere, he couldn’t see anything and he could see there was water everywhere there seemed to be a flood and the water level was rising he tried to turn on the internet there was no internet over there he tried to call someone on phone, there was no phone working as he was watching, the power also went off so on his flashlight, he had some light he started looking around and he could see outside, the water level was rising and soon he would be inundated so as he was thinking, looking around what to do, he was flashing around and suddenly he saw that behind a closet there appeared to be something like a door he just pulled the closet and he found that there was a door, he opened it he saw it led to an attic upstairs narrow stairs, he just ran up there the water rose, rose, rose it inundated the whole first ground level but he was safe in the attic and then the water started decreasing decreasing, decreasing and then he was rescued after that so similarly, just as when he was living normally he didn’t even notice that there was a second level that there was an attic, he just lived in that house at the ground level so our existence is also two dimensional there is the physical level of reality and there is the spiritual level of reality so we normally live at the physical level and we just go on with life but sometimes difficulties come upon us of such a magnitude that we find ourselves powerless to counter like a flood coming in, threatening to destroy so that is the time if we are fortunate we discover that our being has another level that we have a spiritual side to our being and that side is secure, that side is indestructible and the stairway or the elevator which will take us from the physical level of reality to the spiritual level of reality is meditation there can be many different ways but meditation is an extremely powerful meditation can mean different things in different contexts some people just take few deep breaths as you concentrate on the breath itself that can also be meditative but meditation essentially means it’s not just the mode of thinking it’s also about the object of that we think calmly, reflectively, deeply that can be meditation but what are we thinking about, that is also important so the meditational practises that are talked about in the yoga traditions of India they are meant to provide us not just a deep reflective way of thinking but also thinking about life’s higher realities there are different ways to meditate we practise what is called mantra meditation we chant the mantra Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Ram Hare Ram Ram Ram Hare this mantra acts like an elevator so as we chant the mantra our consciousness enters into that mantra and it rises up and as we keep repeating the sound that acts like a self hypnotising trance which raises our consciousness upwards and everyone of us can experience peace pleasure and power through the process of meditation when we do this when we situate ourselves at the spiritual level of reality then we have inner security with that inner security even if a lot of threatening things happen externally or a lot of threatening images get replayed internally on our inner screen still we can distance ourselves from them and by distancing ourselves from them by situating ourselves in self understanding in the security that comes from self understanding we can respond to external situations with greater maturity and greater clarity when we gain spiritual self understanding then as soon as some unwanted image starts popping up on our inner screen rather than getting carried away by it we understand this is not the image I want here and what do we want we focus on that and in that way that unwanted image gets minimised so if we don’t situate ourselves in spiritual self understanding sometimes we may be able to go on with life quite well also if we are going through a good phase in our life the unwanted images may not pop up for a long time and we might be able to work and succeed but we are all vulnerable at any time even in the midst of the highest success sometimes these unwanted images may pop up and they may sabotage us so if we train ourselves to distance ourselves from the inner images that are playing in our mind and situate ourselves in self understanding then we can ensure that we don’t become our own enemies that rather we become our friends that our inner mechanism works for our good helping us to bring out our best make the contributions that we are meant to make and ultimately fulfil our destiny I’ll summarise what I spoke today I spoke about net surfing or net suffering I started by talking about how people sometimes commit suicide just to win some online game or they take suicidal like risks, risk their life to get a good selfie why is that? because we all want some sense of self validation in childhood we may get it from our parents in adulthood we may get it from our position in society especially in youth when we are insecure, we are very vulnerable to insecurity because of not having a healthy sense of self worth in a digital world we might go to any extremes to get that sense of self security sense of self worth so if my facebook views or photo views that starts dominating my mind I may lose sense of perspective and risk my life just so that I can get those views so just as an unwanted image popping up on our device can distract us the same thing can happen inside us we did a thought experiment where inside us there is the inner screen and the inner seer so the inner screen is the mind the inner seer is the self, the soul, the consciousness and on this inner screen based on our attachments based on our vulnerabilities different images keep popping up and mental health challenges come primarily because the popping up on the inner screen becomes uncontrolled and unhealthy so when images from the past keep popping up repeatedly then that may lead to depression when images from the future keep popping up then that may lead to anxiety how do we we cannot stop these images from popping up but we can choose not to focus on them and to do that two steps first is we understand that I am not that image I am different from it we distance ourselves from that image by remembering that I am not the inner screen I am the inner seer and distancing becomes healthier easier when we situate ourselves in spiritual self understanding for that I give an example of this two story building a person who was trapped in a flood found the attic and became safe we normally live at the physical level of reality but if we ascend to spiritual level then even if a flood of problems comes in our life flood of negative images start coming in our inner screen we can distance ourselves and we can be safe so meditation is a time tested process for raising our consciousness from the physical level to the spiritual level and when we learn the art of ensuring that our inner screen focusses on healthy images not unhealthy images then we will be able to become our friends we will be able to tap our talents and fulfil our destiny is there anything more about social media in particular as opposed to perhaps in person interaction that puts people more at risk in person you can have hazing that can have tragic consequences as well is there anything more specific about the visual world so is there anything in the digital world that puts us more at risk as compared to the physical world risks are there everywhere generally the challenge is that we can never know anyone fully but the more we interact with people at a personal level the interactions are multilayered or multidimensional if we are interacting only on social media it may be one or two mediums but we don’t see them in real life so for us to develop real relationships and for us to make healthy evaluations before developing relationships we need to interact with people and see how they are in real life otherwise anybody can put their best image forward for the few moments that we are interacting on social media and then the actual person may turn out to be something entirely different now that risk is there even in real life also people can put on a front but the chance of noticing that is more when we are interacting at a physical level that’s one risk that we may not be able to read people as well as we can in real life another risk is that the virtual world can disconnect us from the real world see the virtual world becomes an extension for our real world I have some friends here and I have some friends online also but sometimes the virtual world the digital world, the social media world can become a substitute for the real world then it becomes an escape way from living instead of living in life first hand we are living a second hand life that is mediated through technology and the richness of life gets substantially diminished by that I was seeing a video of a group of young people they had gone to a beautiful natural scenery on top of a mountain, greenery all around and on that scenery while they were in the middle of the scenery, it was all beautiful but all of them were looking at their phones and in their phones they were looking at natural scenery so what happens generally when we look at the world as it is mediated through the digital media often that world tends to look more attractive than the real world because there are various ways in which the images can be enhanced so when we start finding that digital world more and more attractive as compared to the real world then the real world becomes a boring place and then we get into that world not just as an escape way but it becomes a necessity, it becomes a dependence for many people being disconnected from the net is among their worst nightmares what will I do? so using social media to extend our friend circles to use it as a technology to reach out to more people, that is fine but if that becomes a dependency wherein we use that as a substitute for living then that can be extremely unhealthy and then tomorrow the technology breaks down if people don’t reciprocate I have a friend I was giving a talk at a mental health care centre and there was this person who had attempted suicide this person is a suicide counsellor and he was telling me there is a young girl who attempted suicide so why was that? he said that she was trying to call her boyfriend she called 5-6 times, he didn’t pick up the phone she inferred from that that he has rejected her so now somebody may not pick up the phone for some reason but if you become so dependent on that people she didn’t pick up the phone, people don’t care for me he doesn’t care for me, nobody will care for me I am unloved, I am unloveable what is the point of my living, let me end my life it can seem ridiculous that because of somebody not picking up the phone, somebody may commit suicide but how does that happen? it’s a slippery slope, the bottom seems unbelievable but from the top, you slip down gradually if we become dependent more and more on the virtual world on the social media world then anything going wrong there can appear catastrophic so in a healthy way if we have healthy relationships if we have healthy engagements in the real world if we have a sense of perspective then social media can be used in an effective way also how do we know when the amount of mental energy we are focussing on anxiety that is becoming unhealthy anxiety itself is is a function of human existence the feature of human existence we may not use the word anxiety, we can use the word uncertainty we all are in situations where some things are in our control and some things are not in our control so the things that are not in our control they cause us anxiety if tomorrow we have an exam the results of that exam, the way we perform that exam is important for us but what exactly is going to happen that is not in our control that is going to cause us anxiety so anxiety is a fact of life but there can be concern for the future which can inspire us to prepare for the future so I have an exam tomorrow so what can I do about it so I know that certain things are not in my control but there are certain things in my control let me prepare properly so when the thought of the future the concern for the future inspires us to tap the present effectively when we focus our energy on what is in our control and do our best in the present then that actually thinking about the future and preparing for the future is a sign of intelligence so we should be looking at it there is no doubt about it if I am driving on a road and there is a bump ahead then I have to slow down so I have to look ahead but if we focus so much on the future that it prevents us from acting in the present that worrying about that which is not in our control makes us incapable of doing that which is in our control then that anxiety becomes unhealthy so the way to evaluate it’s not a quantifiable thing but the way to evaluate broadly is that is the thought of the future inspiring me to live the present more fully or is it depleting the quality of my life in the present if that is happening if the second is happening it’s depleting the quality of my life then it is better that I pull my thoughts back from the future and come on the present does this answer your question? any other questions or comments? yes please what is meditation? what do I mean when I say meditation is a time tested process it can be in three different senses in the most immediate sense there have been many studies done which demonstrate that people who meditate both from a behavioural perspective as well as from a neuroscience perspective there they score better on the parameters people who meditate regularly for example they are able to function more effectively their health stays better they are less vulnerable to stress or attacks or strokes at a physical level at the level of neuroscience it’s found that when you meditate more and more then the parts of the brain which are connected with deep reflection, calmness and satisfaction they become more developed those neurological connections become stronger otherwise the parts of the brain which are connected with impulsiveness, anxiety insecurity that functionality becomes more and more prominent on both behavioural and neuroscience level apart from that there have been practitioners of meditation for millennia and in the past there have been people of different vocations but there have been people who by practising meditation have found calmness, have found joy have found strength so in that sense it is a time tested process and the Bhagavad Gita which is a prominent yoga text it says that what it is offering is a science of a higher dimension in science there is theory and there is experiment so theory proposes say Newton’s law of gravity says that if you drop an object it will fall down, that’s a theory but the experiment, actually I drop an object and see, does it fall down so similarly the Bhagavad Gita says spirituality is a higher dimensional science which has two wings, two limbs to it, there is philosophy and there is practise so philosophy is for example what we are discussing right now that is like the theory within science so it gives us the postulates about the nature of reality and the practise such as meditation is the experiment so if we do it, we ourselves can experience the non material enrichment and in that sense it is time tested ok so how long should we practise meditation generally it is best to start with what we can do in our present general, so even if we start with 5 minutes of meditation that itself is something which if we do regularly we will find a cleansing of our inner screen we will find calmness and if we do that 5 minutes, we feel that this is benefiting me we can do it more so there is no hard and fast rule that one has to do this much meditation only but just start with what we can so with respect to mantra meditation we often chant the mantra 108 times, that usually takes around 6 minutes but we can start with a simple 5 minute meditation and go forward as it works out for us thank you very much for your attention and participation there is a few announcements we also have a 12 minute stage