NoI 7 Text 2 – Three levels of contamination due to asat-sanga

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
by Gaurpreet. So, we’re discussing about the six things that affect bhakti positively and negatively. So, till now we discussed about what all affects bhakti.
So, we discussed about Prachalpa and now we’ve come to Bhakti Siddhanta Thakur’s commentary on it. The book, we can read it. Atyahar.
Yes. Can you read it? I’ll just explain after that. Hmm.
They waste their life in fruitless activities. So, what is the problem with Atyahar? It is not just that there is greed which will cause trouble to people. That is there.
But, from the ultimate point of view, the whole endeavour is misdirected. The person doesn’t achieve anything tangible which will last. Whatever the person achieves, that will be lost over.
So, so the whole Vedic process is seek that which will last, not seek that which will be lost. There is a difference between the two. And the scriptures ask us to be, have basic intelligence by which we are going to choose rightly.
So, here, let’s go to the last one. So, seek that which will last, not that which will be lost. So, lasting, not that which is, which will lead us to losing.
So, what we are talking about is spiritual, basically propensity for Atyahar. So, you want to accumulate more and more and more? Yes, we can redirect it towards Krishna. And redirect it towards our devotional spiritual credits.
So, spiritualise the propensity for Atyahar. How do we do that? By redirecting our desires. So, material things are those which will be lost sooner or later.
But, devotional things, spiritual things are those which will last. So, seek that which will last, not that which will be lost. So, now how does this work out? Let’s look at this purport once again.
So, now, I said earlier also, Srila Prabhupada uses a similar pattern. He talks about, first he gives his own commentary, and then he goes to Bhakti Samsit Thakur’s commentary. And he elaborates on his commentary.
So, now, karmis and jnanis, there are materialistic people who write thousands of books. Now, with e-publishing coming up so easily, it’s almost on a daily basis, every day something like 50 to 75,000 different books are published. Every day.
Every single day. And these are books which are published by publishing houses and they are marketed and sold and they are purchased. And there are so many languages in these books.
So, now, are all these books talking nonsense? No, not necessarily. There are specific subjects and those books talk about specific subjects. There can be books about gardening, about cooking, about travel.
So, they have valid and valuable knowledge within them. But that knowledge is of no use when it comes to looking for a transcendental perspective. Because all this knowledge will not last when a person goes to the next life.
So, a person may become a PhD in science in this lifetime or may become a Nobel laureate in science in this lifetime. But depending on the karma, the person will be born again if the person is fortunate enough to be born as a human being in the next lifetime. And all the scientific knowledge that is acquired, next life it starts from A, B, C, D, E, F, G. It starts from memorising the alphabet again.
So, nothing lasts. So, when we talk about atyahar being a waste, it is not necessarily a waste from the material perspective. Materially, things may have their value.
And that’s why as devotees also, when we have to go into some specific fields, we can learn even from materialists. That means, if we decide we want to construct a beautiful temple, then we may consult the architects for that. You know, the architects have clear understanding of how, what kind of material is to be used, what kind of designs are to be used.
So, that is fine. So, that knowledge is valuable. It’s valid.
And we can use it. But, from the spiritual perspective, it is ultimately useless. So, atyahar, what is the problem with it? First problem is it doesn’t last.
It will be lost. But the other problem is that it is temporary, but the temporary distracts us from the eternal. So, that means there are two problems.
The first problem is that so material knowledge is temporary. That is the first problem. That means it will not last with us.
But the other problem is that material knowledge distracts us from the eternal. And this is the real challenge. That what we get is temporary.
But, I will have the temporary and I will have the eternal also. But the temporary is so captivating that it pervades our consciousness. And then we don’t have any scope left to move towards the eternal.
So, atyahar, the problem is that when we get caught in accumulating more and more, the mind becomes so obsessed by it. Krishna talks about this in the Bhagavad Gita, 17th chapter. aneka chitta vibhranta mohaja alasamavritah prasakthah kama bhogeshu patanti narakeshu chau In 16th chapter, 16th verse he describes aneka chitta vibhranta aneka chitta, the consciousness gets caught up in various directions.
vibhranta, it becomes distracted. mohaja alasamavritah person becomes completely covered by illusion. prasakthah kama bhogeshu prasakthah kama bhogeshu attachmental enjoyment patanti narakeshu chau person falls down to hellish existence.
So, what happens with material knowledge and material obsession is it not only gives us that which is temporary, but it also distracts us from that which is eternal. So, now Prabhupada explains in his purport that both the work of the karamis and the work of the jnanis, it is in the category of distraction. It is the category of atyahara.
So, so, as Prabhupada talked about atyahara, he is now talking about atyahara in three terms now. So, what are three ways? There can be too much money. Then Prabhupada talks about too much food in the belly.
That is the first way of atyahara. This is what Prabhupada gave in the atyahara. Then there can be also too much information in the head.
That all is atyahara. So, now food is required in the belly, money is required in the bank account, and information is required in the head. All these are important in their own ways.
But here atyahara talks about disproportionate accumulation. Disproportionate accumulation that distracts one from the higher purpose. So, when I am talking about this point, that atyahara, the whole idea is there is a Sanskrit saying that subhashita ati sarvatra varjayet.
In all activities ati, excess should be given up. Ati sarvatra varjayet. Give up the excess in any and every field.
So, an example to illustrate this point of how atyahara leads to distraction of our material of our endeavours. Let the temporary not distract us from the eternal. That is the whole point of atyahara.
So, the example for this would be suppose a student goes to IIT. Now, IIT is a college where millions of students are aspiring but a few hundreds manage to get. Now, if the IIT student starts bothering about the only thing that is bothered is food.
Where can I get good food to eat? Now, it is good to have good food but if the IIT student starts spending his whole time thinking where I can get food. If food is all that he wanted, he didn’t have to go to IIT for that. He could just have become a waiter in a 5-star hotel also he could have got good food.
Now, if he has gone to IIT it is not that because he is in IIT he has to starve. He has to get food and those who are in IIT they can tell how the food in the mess is very unsatisfactory. That is ok.
But the point is IIT is there for some bigger purpose. A person can get very good education and get a very bright career. So, when we get the human body the human body is like a spiritual IIT chance.
It is like we enter into a spiritual IIT. Now, once you get into a human body, there is so much that we can achieve. There is so much that we can achieve, we can return back.
By practising the spiritual life, we can attain eternal life. So, all bodies are temporary but the human body is special that it offers from the temporary a launching pad for the eternal. But, if we use it if we use it for you know, ESMD is what? Standard acronym.
Eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So, if we use it for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, then it is a colossal it is a colossal and tragic underutilisation. What the human body can give and what we seek with the human body, it is a terrible underutilisation.
So, that is why this underutilisation should be avoided. And the whole point of Atyahar is that don’t underutilise it. It is not that we are not saying that working earning money doesn’t require intelligence.
Acquiring knowledge doesn’t require intelligence. Yeah, it all requires intelligence. It requires hard work.
So, people who become wealthy, people who become scholarly, surely they have brains. In some way. But, that brain capacity is underutilised.
Tragically underutilised. Because they could have used it to get something eternal, but they are satisfied with something temporary. That is the whole problem with Atyahar.
Any questions you can feel free to ask. Prabhupada gave a standard example of how whatever the person achieves, they will not have anything of that in the next life. We have the Kailash story also, where the person is still there next to the in the same body, in the same house, but he is a dog or a snake and he doesn’t enjoy any of that.
Ultimately, the same people for whom he gave his life, they take his life. And that’s the tragedy. So, from the spiritual perspective, all activities apart from those which lead to spiritual credits are a waste of time.
Nakshaya Prabhupada will go to Yamantaka. So, if I get a lot of money, and instead of spending it, I put it as a sort of interest to somebody else, some relative, parents, or family members, and then if I need it, I take it back again. Instead of just spending it.
Yes, whatever practical arrangements are required, they can be done. So, in general, it is very easy to be impulsive. You get certain feelings and you act on those feelings.
So, we have to protect ourselves from our impulses. And generally speaking, are you talking about from Brahmachari perspective or Grahasta perspective? Okay. So, okay.
Generally, from devotees’ perspective, the practical financial arrangements need to be made. Generally, many devotees, if they are working, they will try to save for the future so that they don’t have to work so hard throughout their lives. Nowadays, the competition is so much, struggle for existence, people have to work 12 hours, 14 hours, 16 hours.
So, if they earn sufficiently, then they can take up a less demanding job and focus more on spiritual life later on. So, that is one way. So, for that purpose if one is earning and saving, that is fine.
That’s one way. So, the whole principle is, with respect to finances, अनुकुळ्ळे से नंकल वा पति कुल्ळे से वर्जुन। Whatever is favourable, accept it. What is unfavourable, reject it.
So, as devotees, some devotees may feel that, I don’t want to work too hard. So, I’ll work on taking some job which takes 6-7-8 hours and then remaining time I’ll peacefully practise spiritual life. And that then I do on throughout their lives.
Others might say, no, I will work very hard now and afterwards I can take a less demanding job. But we have to see that the basic spiritual practises go on nicely. That’s with respect to general principle.
Now, with respect to specifically brahmacharis, generally it is good that brahmacharis don’t have any Lakshmi in their name. Because we are surrendering to Krishna. And in a sense, when we take practise brahmachari life, it is sarva-dharman pratityaja maham ekam sarvam.
We are giving up our jobs and everything else. So, the details may vary depending on one’s situation and the temple policies also. But generally, it’s not recommended for brahmacharis to keep any bank accounts.
When we join, we just it’s best to sort of not have any shelter other than Krishna. And then if somebody gives some Lakshmi to somebody else, say like parents or something like that, that is okay. I think that will depend on the practical situation of a person as well as the policies of the temple.
Certainly, it’s not good to keep too much money with oneself. Because we will have the urge to splurge. Splurges spend very profligately.
Spend in a very sort of irresponsible thoughtless way. That is definitely undesirable. So, would you like to make some comments about this? Yes.
Yeah. This is a practical case, which I think we can discuss with somebody. But broadly speaking, it’s good that brahmacharis don’t have some finances with them.
Because then that always it’s like when we practise brahmachari life, there are stories that when kings would fight, you know, if the king has a small army and they want to attack the enemy territory. So, there is a bridge across the river, which they go across and then they go across to the enemy territory. Now, they have such a small army that it’s difficult for them to win.
But because they are small, the soldiers also fight half-heartedly. They think, okay, better we instead of fighting and losing, we’ll run away. So, what the kings would often do is, if they cross the bridge, they’ll burn the bridge.
Once they burn the bridge, now the soldiers know there is no other way. Either I have to fight and win or I die. So, then there they will put all their spirit in fighting.
So, similarly, when we become brahmacharis, it’s not that we have to burn all the bridges, but it’s good to have that spirit that if I’m going to become a brahmachari, I want to continue on life. In worst case, things can work out. Most of the devotees who join as brahmacharis, they are well educated and they have done some jobs and they can take up jobs in future if required.
But if we already have some Lakshmi ready with us, then that becomes a constant temptation. So, yeah, if you entrust it to the parents and they can say, if I need it, I’ll use it in the future. In specific cases, that is okay.
It is required. But in general, when a brahmachari is joining, it should be with the attitude that this is what I would like to do lifelong. Because what happens is, it’s not necessary that everybody who joins, they will be able to continue lifelong.
Or it’s not necessary that they have to continue lifelong. But the point is, if one is taking such a significant step of joining the temple, then why do it half-heartedly? So, whatever will keep us half-hearted, it’s best to sort of disconnect ourselves. So, the practical application may vary, but the point is, we should act in such a way that we can be whole-hearted in our service in brahmacharya.
Any other questions? By the way, whenever you ask questions, can you tell me your names? I want to get more familiar with all of you. So, nowadays, with say inflation and reconstitution, we need a lot of money. But that distracts from our spiritual life also.
So, actually, too much money, the word too much is relative. That means, depending on one’s current situation, depending on one’s social obligations, how much will be required, that will vary. And that is something which every individual has to decide on one’s own discretion.
It’s like others cannot tell us you are eating too much. Different people have different capacities. Some people may eat 5 chapatis, some people may eat 3 chapatis, some people may eat 10 chapatis.
But there is a balance. If somebody regularly eats 3 chapatis, suddenly starts eating 20 chapatis. And there is something wrong.
So, like that, each of us, just as we decide how much food we eat, similarly, each of us will have to decide what financial level we want to live in. And much of the expenses that happen in today’s society are because of social pressure. If you want to belong to a particular class, you will have to wear a particular kind of dress.
You have to have a particular kind of car. You have to do this particular kind of house. So, all the trappings come along.
And as devotees, we have to make certain decisions. And those decisions will determine the speed at which we can practise our spiritual life. So, it’s not necessary that somebody who feels that I want to spend, I want to live at a particular financial level, and for that I have to put in this much time, then it’s not that that person is not practising spiritually.
But naturally, if material life is taking so much time, then the amount of time available for spiritual life will be less. So, if this decision is required, like some devotees may decide that we’ll go to, in India we can’t earn so much, we’ll go to America, or we’ll go to somewhere else, Middle East or somewhere and we’ll earn more and then we’ll come back. So, if one can maintain one’s spiritual life in that intermediate phase also, then that’s good.
So, financial management is something which will vary according to time, place, circumstances. But the broad principle is that we can’t have both. There are some devotees who may be born in very wealthy families, and for them to maintain that wealthy status is not going to take so much time.
But if somebody wants to just rise up this ladder of economic success at a meteoric pace, and at the same time make swift spiritual advancement, that is going to be a challenge. So, we shouldn’t necessarily, somebody is doing that, we shouldn’t necessarily label that devotee as 3D. That’s not the point.
We should understand that everybody has different levels of inspiration and conviction about spiritual life, and they’ll practise accordingly. But the fundamental principle is, Krishna say, yatha maam prapadyanam. As all people surrender to me, they’ll avoid accordingly.
So, whatever we offer to Krishna accordingly, we’ll get the result. So, of course, some people may earn a lot and they may give a lot to Krishna also. That way also they can make spiritual advancement.
But generally speaking, more important than giving Lakshmi to Krishna is to give our heart to Krishna. The whole idea of Sphakti is that I have to give my heart to Krishna. But when I can’t give my heart to Krishna, I give that which is in my heart to Krishna.
So, what is in my heart? For most people, it is money. So, when I give money to Krishna, what happens? Oh, I gave so much donation. I keep remembering that.
Otherwise, I do that. So then, by giving some, that which is in my heart to Krishna, we give Krishna a place in our life. But it’s always better that we try to give our heart to Krishna.
So, in one sense, we give our heart by giving our time. So, we offer quality time to Krishna. Chanting, hearing, serving.
There are different devotees who can serve in different ways. But giving money is a bit indirect. You earn money and then give it to Krishna.
Connection with Krishna is there, but it is a little indirect. Giving our lives to Krishna is much, much more direct. Any more questions? Now, let’s go to Naman.
Utilitarians. You know, utility is benefit. Utilitarians are those who say that everything is meant for practical benefits.
So, agraha means to accept. Agraha means to accept. Agraha means to emphatically accept.
And agraha means to not accept it. So, that means there are two variants to this. See, there are, this is an important point, let’s look at the first part of Nama Agraha.
So, principles are like the compass. Rules are like the road. So, for example, if I have to go from here to Mayapur, then I know that Mayapur is eastwards.
So, if I compass by which I know this is eastward, then that will point in general direction. But, if there is a road, then the road enables me to go easily. I can go cross-country also through mountains and forests and rivers.
And I will reach Mayapur, but it will be much more difficult. With a road, I can go more easily. So, the rules are like the roads.
So, they enable us to reach the destination. So, the compass is what? Points to the destination. And the road is there.
It’s an easy way to the destination. So, normally speaking, say, the rules are the best way to follow the principles. So, for example, what is the difference? A principle could be always remember Krishna.
That is the always. Now, the rule is chant 16 rounds. So, what the rules make it, make application of the principle tangible for me.
Now, by chanting 16 rounds, it’s not that I am always remembering Krishna, but at least for some time of the day, I am remembering. So, now, the two ways which Niyamagraha can happen is that Niyamagraha. Remembering Krishna is in the mind.
I will follow the principles. Why chant? I don’t need to chant. What will happen is, I will not really be remembering Krishna.
I am not chanting. I will not remember Krishna because generally, whatever we want to do emphatically, we express it physically also. When a mother loves the child, when the child is crying, the mother will immediately take the child in the lap and cuddle it and caress it and calm it down.
So, if the mother says, I love the child, but I will not do anything practical. And that love will remain merely as a sentiment. So, generally speaking, the practical action which is given by the rule, for example, chant 16 rounds is the easiest way to apply the principle.
However, if somebody just chants the 16 rounds mechanically, uttering the sound vibration, but is not remembering Krishna, then that is Niyamagraha. Agraha. Niyam plus Agraha is following the rule but forgetting the purpose of it.
If somebody says, don’t chant 16 rounds that is Niyamagraha. So, both ways, it is undesirable. It is counterproductive.
Now, when Prabhupada uses the word utilitarians over here in the purport. So, as utilitarians advocate, follow the rules and regulations for immediate benefit. So, people say that actually, you know, whether God exists or not, it doesn’t matter.
But, you should believe in God. So, that will stay moral. It will stay moral.
Bertrand Russell was a famous atheist. He used to call all his intellectual friends in his house and he would have discussions where he would tell how there is no God. The idea of God is an illusion and atheism is the correct doctrine.
But, when he would have these meetings at his house, he would close all the doors and the windows of the meeting room and make sure that none of his servants were hearing the discussion. Why? He said, if my servants start believing that there is no God, then they will start robbing from my house. He said, let them believe in God.
So, what is happening? He thinks there is no God but he is thinking utilitarian benefit. Utilitarian means, they don’t think the rules for utilitarian utilitarian benefit. Belief in God is to keep people moral.
So, there are many examples of utilitarian followers. If you offer them Tulsi, Tulsi is very good for health, I will take that. Now, Tulsi Devi is actually transcendental and we honour Tulsi Devi by practising, by accepting her mercy.
Others may do it for utilitarian purpose. That is also undesirable. So, can you give any other examples of people following rules for utilitarian purposes? Only means this world utility.
Devotees dance in kirtan so that they will digest the food they have eaten and so they eat a lot also. Do devotees do like that actually? I don’t know. I know, I know, I know one person who came to our temple and he said that, you know, Hare Krishna wale hamare baat hote, hamse daan lete, aur phir bahut prasad khaate hai aur phir khoop naaste hai woh pachane ke liye.
So, that was his idea. I don’t know if devotees have that logic that I will dance so that I will digest the food. That is there, that is sad.
That is, that is, I know there are people who do that, no doubt. Some people who say that actually I have got some heart problem, doctor has told me to move my hands and legs. They will come and dance in the kirtan so that they will move their hands and legs and activate their body.
That is a good example. Any other example of utilitarian? Yes. Yes.
Some people may just go to some pseudo-spiritual organisations and they may do jumping, jumping, singing, laughing, there are laughter club. You can just laugh. So, what is the idea of this? Now, of course, here they are not following any scriptural rules also.
But they are just doing something in the name of spirituality and they are doing it for material purposes. This is worldly gains. Some people may chant Hare Krishna and their whole goal of chanting Hare Krishna may be that, oh, by chanting Hare Krishna, certain sound, certain vibrations are ringing, certain vibrations calm the mind down.
And that’s true. But we are chanting our family to calm the mind down. We are chanting to develop our relationship with Krishna, develop our love for Krishna.
So, like that, there can be multiple purposes. So, accepting it only for the sake of accepting, without considering the purpose. That is Niyam Agraha.
So, let’s move forward. Yes. So, Prabhupada teaches us to avoid both extremes.
And avoiding both extremes, focus on what will lead to advancement of Krishna Consciousness. So, we will see in Sri Prabhupada’s life also that he was, he followed a lot of rules, but he was not a stickler for rules. Stickler means, without rules, nothing can move forward.
And Sri Prabhupada started the centres in America. Even when he got the first, it was Jagannath Baldev Subhadra. What did he do at that time? No, he just, normally deities are made by those Shilpins who are actually trained in spiritual culture.
So, Prabhupada got Shamsundar Prabhu and others to make, Shamsundar Prabhu to make the deities. And then after that, even when the installation ceremony was there in San Francisco, normally, whenever a new temple is established, there is an elaborate inauguration ceremony, installation ceremony. But Prabhupada had a very simple installation ceremony.
And he had the Diya, he said, all of you, just move the Diya around. It was very practical. And then some Indians who had emigrated to America, they came to the temple and said, Swamiji, where is the spire? Where is the tower in the temple? Why the temple not facing, deities are not facing in the east direction? So, Sri Prabhupada said, Prabhupada was actually, there are letters of Prabhupada, where Prabhupada was very disillusioned with Indians.
He said, the Indians in America as well as the Indians in India. He said, the Indians in America, they do only two things. They find faults and they give suggestions.
They don’t commit themselves practically. He said, the Americans, they are committing themselves practically. They are transforming themselves.
Even in India, actually, during Sri Prabhupada’s times, although there was a sensational attraction to the Hare Krishna devotees, because of the whole idea of this Indian Swami going abroad and making foreign disciples, the number of people who committed themselves were limited. You see, even among the Sanyasis, Gurus and Prabhupada’s disciples who are there in our movement, how many of them are Indian? Not too many. It is only from the 80s onwards that you look at his con-history.
I gave a series of classes on history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism once. So, I studied this Indian history. Actually, it was almost from 84-85 onwards that ISKCON started picking up in India.
Now, of course, ISKCON India is the powerhouse of all of ISKCON. There are more temples, more devotees, more books distributed in India than anywhere else. But still, the point which I am making here is that Srila Prabhupada was not a stickler for rules.
Now, when we have proper structures, the idea was that at that time, nothing is available. So, we need some facility for glorifying Krishna. So, whatever is available, use it.
If nothing is available, move on. Nothing is available, Srila Prabhupada said, I can sit under a Tompkins Square Park also and do Kirtan. I don’t have to have a temple.
But when there is a temple, he did not start off by trying to build a big temple. He first focused on having devotees. And gradually, the devotees, either in sincerity, they started building temples.
Yes! Srila Prabhupada used churches as temples. Lot of streets of churches. Srila Prabhupada even used haunted houses.
You know, places that are haunted, that is actually kamasik. To use that as a temple is unheard of. Srila Prabhupada was quite resourceful in that.
He needed to accept anything and everything if it was a new pool for the practitioners. So, Srila Prabhupada at the same time was quite strict. He said, we have to chant 16 rounds, follow four Ayurvedic principles.
And at one time, Srila Prabhupada was asked, Swamiji, you are very conservative. You have these four Ayurvedic principles which make life very difficult. So, Srila Prabhupada said, we are not conservative, we are compassionate.
So, what is the we say, compassion does not mean, you remember I discussed the difference between, I discussed being merciful and being being merciful and compromising. Discussing, isn’t it? Merciful means to make, if somebody is sick, to make it easy for the person to become healthy. To provide whatever is required to help the person become healthy.
But to compromise means to say that the sick state itself is the healthy state. So, actually Srila Prabhupada was not compromising. He did not do Niyamagra.
Oh, you western people, you cannot follow the four Ayurvedic, it doesn’t matter, just chant Hare Krishna. He did not do that. He said, you have to follow it if you want to become healthy.
Of course, without compromising also one can chant. And one will make spiritual advances. But if one wants a transformational spiritual journey, then one has to make some sacrifices.
That’s why Prabhupada says about Niyamas, he quoted about the four Ayurvedic principles. Yes, go ahead. So, here he is saying that actually, now Prabhupada has gone from the, about the Prachal Bho, Niyama, Jana Sangas, Chal Auliyams, he has come to Jana Sanga.
So, actually, we did not complete this point which we were discussing yesterday about Jana Sanga. Remember? Where is it gone? Not saved. Strange.
I typed it here. Okay, I’ll type it once again. Probably I didn’t save it.
No problem. So, we discussed about Yeah, correct. So, we discussed, yes, Desires, Lajna, Wait, so you have, I won’t go into, write it all down, you know it.
Kalakrishtigas, excellent. Kalakrishtigas. Students say, getting into something like Obscene Sights.
Obscene Sights. Intelligence could be Ajaan. Or some misconceptions like Youth is not the time for spiritual life.
Yes, correct. So, we were discussing about faith, isn’t it? Kaikeyi. So now, Kaikeyi made actually two serious mistakes.
You see, Kaikeyi’s effect was much greater. In the sense that she lost faith in Lord Ram. Lord Ram was her greatest well-wisher.
But, she started thinking of Lord Ram as her greatest enemy. And she wanted him to be driven out of Ayodhya. So, her mistakes were in two parts.
The first part of the mistake was that she heard mantra and believed mantra. And the second part was she did not consult anyone else. So, actually, how does our faith get damaged? It is because of bad association.
But bad association, we cannot avoid it to some extent. We live in the world and sometimes we’ll have bad association. But, whenever there is some contamination that comes with bad association, we’ll try to counter it by some good association that brings about clarification.
If we don’t do that, then we have only our sins to blame. That’s why, now what may happen is, in Kalyuga, there is the internet, where anybody can put anything. And there is no censorship, there is no critical review.
And because of that, there is no filtration of the knowledge, you know, what is true, what is false, and what is an exaggeration that is based on semi-truth and semi-false. So, many people, they start surfing for what is gone on the internet. When they start surfing what is gone, this has happened, that has happened, that has happened.
And they just lose their faith. So now, the point is that, ISKCON is an international institution. And there are different people who come from different sources, different backgrounds.
So there are surely many things which have gone wrong. So we are not saying that everything that is critical of ISKCON is only false. There are many things which are true, and whatever is true, in much of it, actually ISKCON itself was admitted.
And ISKCON itself has worked hard to correct. For example, there are some child abuse cases within America. So actually, the child abuse cases were published by ISKCON itself and ISKCON’s communication unit.
And then, ISKCON itself worked so that those children could be compensated. So, there is, Kalyuga is such that everybody gets contaminated. So, the Catholic Church had a huge problem with child abuse.
And what they did was, they just tried to put everything under the walls, under the cover. And that led to, that led to lot of bad press. So that was when ISKCON, when this thing happened in India, there was an article in favourable coverage in many newspapers in America, which said that actually, although this has happened, the way ISKCON approached it was very positive.
So the point is that, we are not saying that everything that is there on the net is false. There may be things which are true also. But, the question is, you know, what have I come to see? What have I come to ISKCON for? ISKCON is like a Kalpataru.
Kalpataru means, a desire tree. So whatever I come to ISKCON for, ISKCON will humiliate. Just as Krishna is a Kalpataru, ISKCON is also a Kalpataru.
So, if somebody comes to ISKCON for money, you know, the person can become a fundraiser and do certain things and again have a lot of money. If somebody can, wants power and prestige, then which other institution people will come and offer obeisances to you? A person can get that. A person can get followers.
If somebody wants women, a person can get women. Whatever a person wants, a person will get that. And, if somebody wants Krishna, he will get Krishna also.
So, it depends on what we want. And, if I come to ISKCON and I am looking for controversy, Krishna will fulfil my desire for controversy. And I will get more controversy than what I will get in material world.
So, what happens is, there are controversies, there are scandals, there are complex issues. We don’t deny that they are there. But that’s not what we have come here for.
We are not sweeping them under the carpet. We are saying they are there and they are being dealt with with appropriate means. But that’s not what I have come here for.
So, we have to be very clear. If I am going to search for Krishna consciousness by surfing on the internet and searching for what are the unpleasant things about ISKCON, then I am not searching for Krishna consciousness. I am not in Krishna consciousness.
I am in scandal consciousness. I am in controversy consciousness. So, then that is not going to enhance my faith in any way.
That’s why if people read certain things like that and get disturbed, what we should tell them is that certain misconceptions have troubled them too much, then we can specifically address their issues. On my website, I have put some article, one article about the Hrithvik issue. What is philosophically wrong with the Hrithvik issue? And there is this whole theory, completely baseless idea that Prabhupada was poisoned.
So, it’s a ridiculous idea. There is no basis in fact for it. But they have some arguments.
So, I have put an article which refutes the whole thing. There are books written about the whole thing also. But I have done it in a condensed way.
So, if somebody has some specific doubts, we can address them in a specific way. But in general, we need to train ourselves and train others that what is your objective? What is your objective? Are you coming for Krishna for the sake of attaining Krishna or for some other purpose? Now, if we look within Krishna consciousness, we will definitely see people who have truly come close to Krishna. Now, we can look at people who have left their body gloriously in Krishna consciousness.
Bhaktived Maharaj is one glorious example. There are other examples also. Sridhar Maharaj also, the way he left his body in Mayapur.
So many are like that, who are… Jayadvait Maharaj wrote a very nice offering 4-5 years ago to Prabhupada. He said, generally, the calibre of a teacher is known by the calibre of the students. If a teacher’s students come all toppers in a university, in a common board exam or something like that, the teacher is considered to be a great teacher.
So, like tuition classes may advertise. From our tuition classes, 9 of the 10 JEE toppers, they are from our classes. Now, actually speaking, most of these classes, their success is a little deceptive.
Why is it deceptive? Not that they are doctoring the results. Their students have come out of the toppers. But, they select the students who come to them only.
They will have best students come to them and actually they will have the best results. So, in that sense, it’s not all that great. But he said, Sridhar Prabhupada, your glory was such that you took people who did not even believe, have any idea that there was a next life.
They did not believe in the existence of God. They did not believe in having any kind of discipline based on religion in their lives. And you enabled them to graduate successfully from material existence.
Remember Krishna and return back to Krishna. So, this is remarkably glorious. That means a student who has been utter failure and some forum that transformed that student into a topper.
That is truly glorious. Sridhar Prabhupada has done that kind of thing by the presence of Krishna. So, therefore, if we want to look, have people really gone close to Krishna by practising Krishna consciousness in ISKCON? Yes, many people have gone there.
Many people have come to ISKCON. And we need to associate with those people and by their association, we make special advancement. Just because somebody is in ISKCON, doesn’t necessarily mean that person is a serious devotee or advanced devotee.
Even if that person has been there for many years. So, we have to see that I am coming here to go closer to Krishna. And I don’t want to judge who is close to Krishna or who is not close to Krishna.
But I can see whose life is such that it inspires me to go closer to Krishna. And then I take their association, I take their guidance, I take inspiration from them and move forwards. So, that’s why ISKCON as an institution is important but more important is the process of Krishna consciousness.
And we are here not to join an institution but to follow a process. And the institution enables us to follow the process. So, if somebody doesn’t understand the process, doesn’t understand the philosophy and just focusses on the institution, there can be so much controversy that can come up.
And so many people can needlessly lose faith. Any questions? Okay. So, we may succumb to any of these contaminations in future.
What can we do to protect ourselves? So, one of the things is that with respect to desires, there is a short term. So, the best thing to do is create obstacles between us and the temptations. That means say, if somebody has a weakness that person tends to go on the internet and start surfing on the wrong sites, then don’t keep easy internet access.
Let internet access be on a public place or it be a restricted forum where certain sites are filtered out. So, this is not a sign of any weakness or cowardice. It’s just a sign of allowing those indistracted focus.
If we are weak, we have to protect ourselves. The whole idea in Vedic culture, Brahmachari is, they don’t associate with the opposite sex, with women. Why is that? Prabhupada writes, the principle of Brahmacharya is rigid disassociation with women.
It’s associated with disassociation. So, rigid disassociation with women. Now, why is that required? It’s not necessary that when a Brahmachari associates with a woman, there will be some problems.
But, definitely the possibility is there, but why take the risk? So, organise, now to a large extent, at least in India, the social culture can be arranged in such a way that we can minimise the association. So, basically, to avoid contamination at the level of desires, it’s good to not make the temptations very readily accessible. Keep them at a distance, create some obstacles between us and those temptations.
And then, the chance of succumbing will be much less. It is not a foolproof solution, because if I get conquered by the desire, then I’ll remove the obstacle and fall into mine. But at least, generally when the desires capture us, their spell doesn’t last for very long.
And if there are some obstacles, removing all the obstacles and coming through to the process of enjoyment, going through to the enjoyment, during that process, the spell of the desire subsides. And then, we come back on the right track. So, now with respect to intelligence, contamination that is there, we have to have regular study of scripture.
Then, our intelligence stays sharp. By that, Prabhupada’s books, what do they do? There are so many common misconceptions that we may have in our spiritual life. And Prabhupada’s books refute those misconceptions.
So, even when we study scripture, studying scripture is not a ritual. It’s good to do it at least as a ritual. That means, everyday I study Prabhupada’s books for some time, or every week I study it for a few hours, depending on the study.
It’s important that we study on a regular basis. But it’s not just a ritual that I do because I have to do it. My study should be such that it addresses and removes my misconceptions.
So, if I am having certain doubts, then I will have to find out the appropriate devotees or read the appropriate books that will deal with my doubts. Now, there are devotees, somebody, say, has come from a science background. And somebody has studied the theory of evolution.
It’s an extreme example. And somebody feels, you know, I think there is a lot of evidence for theory of evolution. I don’t think it is wrong.
So, now, can a person who believes in evolution practise devotional service? Yes. There is no ban. There is no entry qualification, disbelief in evolution as a qualification of Chanting Hare Krishna.
No, but actually the implications of evolution, at least evolution as it is taught in science today, is that there is no God. And that is damaging. So, then if I have that kind of doubt and the doubt is troubling me specifically, then I need to talk to some devotees who have studied the theory of evolution and some devotees who are scientifically inclined.
Or if I am very much into it, then I should find out, there are devotees, scientists who have written books about this. So, I read those books and get my doubts addressed. So, in this way, if I have specific doubts, which are troubling me, which are contaminating my intelligence, then I have to take the necessary steps by which through study and discussion, my doubts will be addressed.
And then when there is, when faith is being challenged, associating with faith-boosting or taking faith-boosting association. So, it’s not that all association is necessarily for faith-boosting. So, whatever association beasts are for this faith.
So, we see some devotees are extremely dedicated. And we see their commitment, actually, this devotee is not getting anything in material life. Just utterly dedicated to Krishna, sacrificing so much for Krishna’s sake.
So, why would somebody sacrifice so much? Person must be getting some higher happiness because of which that person is doing this. So, by associating with devotees, one gets that faith that there is a higher happiness and I have to strive. And these devotees are experiencing this higher happiness and I want to experience it too.
In this way, we can deal with it. Of course, we can discuss many of these. These are the broad principles.
Sometimes, we face discouragements and even some small failures in our spiritual life. So, at that time, despite taking precaution if this happens, what should we do? Spiritual life is a war. And in a war, sometimes you will get wounded.
So, the important thing is that we never lose till we lose hope. When we lose hope, then we stop fighting. Once we stop fighting, then we are lost.
So, no matter how badly we have fallen, so, no matter how badly we have fallen, we never lose till we lose hope. Absolutely, that is the reason. Once I start thinking like that, then I just give up fighting.
Then, that’s a loss. Actually, if you look at the setting of the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna’s Gandiva bow represents the determination of the living entity to serve Krishna. what happens at the start of the Bhagavad Gita, the first chapter ending is विस्रुज्यससरं जापं शोकसं वेविनमानि सहां He puts aside his bow saying that I will not fight.
But, at the end of the Bhagavad Gita, what happens? विस्रुज्यससरं जापं शोकसं वेविनमानि सहां See, the bow that he has given up, he has picked up the bow. So, actually, what is the difference? So, Arjuna’s Gandiva represents our determination. Now, Arjuna, what does he do in the first chapter? He does प्रत्तेक्ष and अनुमान.
प्रत्तेक्ष and अनुमान weakens our determination. And शब्द strengthens our determination. So, that means we do everything.
So much maya, so much temptation, I get so agitated. Today I am fighting, tomorrow, how much time can I get fighting with this? In the future, I will succumb. So, instead of succumbing in the future, I will succumb now only.
So, this is प्रत्तेक्ष and अनुमान. And that leads to defeat, that leads to losing of hope. But, if instead of overlying on प्रत्तेक्ष and अनुमान with लयान शब्द, yes, temptations can be very strong, but Krishna will protect you.
If I am practising devotional service, then maya cannot force itself on me. It is only when I succumb to maya that I will be able to go on. If I stay practising I can go on.
So, generally, we find that most of the time when we become discouraged, it is because of too much over-reliance on sense perception and excessive faith in mental speculation. One time, Devamruth Maharaj has asked this question, that, he says, you know, if we join ISKCON, in the future ISKCON closes down. ISKCON or the institute closes down, what will you do? What will a brahmachari do? So, he says, he asks this question, you are an IIT, if in the future IIT closes down, what will you do? He says that, don’t imagine unrealistic problems.
Don’t imagine unrealistic problems. Actually speaking, ultimately, what is ISKCON? ISKCON is a forum by which people are practising Krishna consciousness. So, as long as we are practising Krishna consciousness, others are practising Krishna consciousness, some forum will be there for that.
Ultimately, we are not surrendering to an institution. We are surrendering to Krishna. And we are surrendering to those who are devoted to Krishna.
So, our faith is not primarily in an institution. It is in the Supreme Personality of Godhead and those who represent Him. The devotees, the process, the philosophy.
So, by keeping… So, what happens is, take our vision away from Krishna. And then, we lose faith. But, by Shabda, our vision gets lifted again to Krishna.
And by that, our faith gets strong. Does that answer your question? Yes. Yes.
Now, sometimes, we associate with Mayavadis and maybe use some of the facilities that they provide for Krishna service. So, it’s a delicate issue In principle, there is the principle that one should not associate with Mayavadis at all. But then we see that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu heard for seven days from Sarvamattacharya.
At that time, Sarvamattacharya, at least as far as Chaitanya Sri Ram Buddha is concerned, it says that he was a Mayavadi. So, and certainly he was not a Vaishnava at that time. He was worshipping Jagannath, but his understanding of Jagannath was not exactly as the Vaishnava understanding.
So, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu heard so that he could convert him. Now, in that sense, there is that example of associating for the sake of converting. Now, the problem is that if somebody is not advanced enough, then there is other example also.
There was, along with Jiva Goswami, one of his contemporaries was Madhusudana Saraswati. Madhusudana Saraswati, he came to know, he was born in Bengal only, he came to know about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s philosophy. He was very attracted to it.
And he felt that the Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s philosophy, he establishes it. And for that he wanted to, he said that we should defeat Mayavada. And actually, just as Jiva Goswami went to Varanasi to study under Prakashanam, and he studied under whom? Madhusudana Vidyavachaspati.
Studied under Vidyavachaspati. So, similarly, Madhusudana Saraswati also went to Kashi. He studied under Mayavadis.
But when he studied under Mayavadis, he actually got influenced. And then eventually he went and became a Mayavadi. So, Madhusudana Saraswati is one of, actually not only became a Mayavadi, he became one of the most prominent Mayavadis.
And for, at that time the debate between Dwaitavadis and Advaitavadis was very heavy. So, a prominent Dwaitavadi Acharya, Madhusampradaya was Vyasatirtha. He had written a book called Nyayamrit, which was you know, which was like a knock-out blow for Mayavada.
So, for 150 years, after Nyayamrit was written, Mayavada had no answer for that. But Madhusudana Saraswati wrote a book called Advaita Siddhi, which was like a response to this Nyayamrit. So, now, even now in the Advaitic Sampradaya, Nyayamrit is considered, Advaita Siddhi is considered very important.
So, Jiva Goswami, when he saw this, in the Santarbhas, just unrelentingly smashes Mayavada. Whatever the argument, actually, in the Santarbhas, his arguments against Mayavada itself is difficult to understand. And his reputation is even more difficult to understand.
But he does that because he saw the effects. So, that means, there has to be adequate safety. So, at an intellectual level, if you become submissive to Mayavadi, that is dangerous.
That means, we say that I will go to Mayavadis to learn from them. So, that I will convert them. That is dangerous.
The traditional way is that even if somebody has to refute the opposing philosophy, if say, the Madhavadis have to refute Advaitavadis, then they will not read Advaitin books. They will read the books by the Madhavacharyas only, refuting Mayavada. So, intellectually, we should not submissively hear from Mayavada.
That’s one thing. Now, culturally, there may be certain forums where there may be some commingling. You know, I was talking about Vyasa Tirtha.
Vyasa Tirtha was the ruling Pandit of Maharaja Krishnadevaraya’s kingdom. So, at that time, actually, there were the Krishnadevaraya and the subsequent kingdom that happened in Kubri, Hampi. That was a very influential kingdom.
So, now there, the kingdom was prominently Vaishnavite. But then, he did not outlaw Mayavadis. Actually, he treated the Mayavadis also quite respectfully.
So, culturally, there may be some commingling that may happen. There are some religious festivals under the king’s patronage. And in the kingdom, there are Mayavadis as well as Vaishnavites.
And the festival organised by the king, both may come together. And they may address themselves cordially also. There are examples where Prabhupada also addresses Mayavadis cordially.
Once, Prabhupada in America, then some Mayavadi came to meet him when he was sick. And Prabhupada told his disciples to get up and offer them a seat and talk to them cordially with them. So, Prabhupada also shared when he, for example, when he was in India, he came to Sadhu Samaj.
Sadhu Samaj had organised programmes. So, Prabhupada, Vaishnav, most of the other speakers were Mayavadis. So, Prabhupada let them speak.
And when his chance came to speak, he spoke. So, that means there are certain forums where we may have to intermingle. But that is a forum so that we can reach out about Krishna Consciousness to other people.
But in general, associating with them on a one-to-one level and especially hearing from them, that is quite dangerous. This is the Mayavadi institution. This is the Vaishnav institution.
It is the common people. So, we should definitely not let Mayavadis come to our temple and let them speak. We had at one time, I think, Jayendra Saraswati, Shankaracharya had come to our temple.
So, when he came to Rala Gopinath temple, he was allowed to sit on the Vyasa and people came and offered him obeisances. But he did not speak. So, generally, when Mayavadis come to our place, we can offer them respects but not a podium to speak.
If we are invited somewhere at a Mayavadi’s place for a programme, generally, there is no need for us to go specifically over there. But if some constraints require us to go, then we go there just for the sake of the function and come back. We will speak our philosophy, we will do our kirtans and we will come back.
Actually, Prabhupada was asked, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi invited him to come to his place in Himalayas. Rishikesh. So, Prabhupada wrote a letter to him saying that our Acharyas have told us not to associate with Mayavadis.
He did not go. Prabhupada was quite blunt. But, that is not necessary.
That is the only policy. There are other places where Prabhupada did associate with Mayavadis. Actually, at that time, this was actually about 1975-76.
So, at that time, Prabhupada himself was very big. And he did not necessarily need to go to the Mayavadis to preach there. So, generally, going to their places for preaching, that is not required.
But, there is a third point where there are common programmes organised. So, generally speaking, if we say a programme is organised by ISKCON, few people will come. But, if there is a common programme organised about Indian culture, and various illustrious spiritual leaders are coming, very well-known spiritual leaders are coming, and many of them will be Mayavadis.
Because Mayavad is the prominent philosophy that is there even in India today. Actually speaking, as far as practitioners are concerned, Vaishnavas are far more than Mayavadis. But, as far as the intellectuals are concerned, Mayavadis are often more.
So, then, when there is a programme which is in neutral territory, where multiple people are coming, the audience of such programmes is also bigger. So, if then, for such a programme, if we go, and then we deal cordially with the Mayavadis, that is not wrong. We should be cordial to everyone.
Now, sometimes there is this notion that Baksudan Sutakur, when he would walk on the streets of Calcutta with the Mayavadis, he would go and catch their necks and slap them. That’s false. That’s false.
It’s not true. It’s not true. Clearly, it’s not true.
In the Bhakti Siddhanta, I was talking about Vikas Maharaj about it. So, he says that in the Bhakti Siddhanta, no such incidents actually happened. He was heavy with Mayavadis, refuting their philosophy.
But, he was cordial. He was cordial with them on a one-to-one while talking with them. So, and even the Mayavadis, when he passed away, even the Mayavadis came to sort of offer their last respects to him.
So, in that sense, actually, our philosophy should not make us sort of culturally seem rude or arrogant or insensitive to others. That means that the philosophical aspect is the cultural aspect. So, if every time we see a Mayavadi, it’s not that whenever we see a Mayavadi, we have to have some fool and rascal with it.
No, that’s not necessary. Prabhupada did not do that all the time. So, when Prabhupada met George Harrison, George Harrison was under the influence of quite a few Mayavadis before that.
So, when he asked him about this teacher and that teacher, Prabhupada did not really criticise anything. Prabhupada said, okay, he is giving some mantra, but why is he charging for mantra? If mantra is good, he will be going free. When they are doing Hare Krishna Mantra, Prabhupada actually made things very he focused on logical doing scriptural presentation.
He did not go into criticism of any sort. So, generally, at a cultural level, we can associate with them if it helps us in the outreach. And for that, we can be cordial, respectful also.
But, especially hearing from them, that can be very helpful. This is something which, within ISKCON also, there is multiplicity of opinion. So, I had asked Adhamatma about this directly.
So, he said that, Prabhupada himself preached in different ways. Sometimes, he preached in entire distance from Mayavadis. Sometimes, he shared a podium with Mayavadis.
So, it will depend on what is most effective. In general, it’s like, if ISKCON itself has a substantial presence, then, when ISKCON organises a programme with Mayavadis, the Mayavadis get respect by that. But, if in a place where ISKCON doesn’t have much presence, Krishna Consciousness doesn’t have much following, then, the Mayavadis have much following.
And, when we share a forum with them, we get a bigger audience. So, we’ll have to see how Krishna Consciousness can be best propagated and accordingly decided. Any other questions about this? Actually, I did a search once time in Radarbase.
How many times Prabhupada uses the word Krishna? How many times Prabhupada uses the word fools and rascals? So, Prabhupada, it’s only a few thousand times fools and rascals. But, Krishna comes several hundred thousand times. So, our primary identity is not that we are Mayavadi haters.
No, we are Krishna devotees. And, we would like to clarify misconceptions. One of the misconceptions is Mayavad.
So, I don’t think we should take if the Mayavadis offer some prasad, it’s best that we don’t take the prasad. We can just sort of accept it, but not honour it. Then give it to somebody else or whatever.
Strategically, we’ll have to decide what to do. But, at a cultural level, the third point is also that many of these Mayavadis are very respected in today’s society. So, if we start, if we disrespect them, that can alienate a lot of people.
So, we also have to look at Loka Sangh. What is the public perception? We want to show that Mayavad is wrong. But, in showing that Mayavad is wrong, we don’t want to come off as fanatics.
We want to logically and scripturally explain why Mayavad is wrong. So, if we come off as fanatics, then people will not hear us. It means there are two broad ways of outreach.
One is that all other institutions are wrong and ISKCON is right. Now, if somebody is directly coming to hear from us, we don’t have to necessarily say bluntly everybody else is wrong, but we just give our philosophy and people will understand how others are. So, one is that we put a complete sort of wall between us and other institutions and say that all others are wrong, we are right.
The other is, we sort of mix with the other institutions, but actually most of the institutions don’t have sadhana like we have. You know, which other institution has two hours chanting, exhausting morning programme and most of them don’t even have philosophical education like we have. So, if we even, in some forum, join with other institutions, serious spiritual seekers will clearly see us as standing out.
The substance that we have in terms of sadhana and in terms of siddhanta, it is huge, it is substantial. But if we just stand out and say that everybody else is wrong, then those people don’t even consider us as one of the potential candidates to consider on the spiritual path. That’s why being respectful at a cultural level but not becoming submissive at an intellectual level, that is how we can associate.
So, we’ll continue tomorrow. It’s almost time. One should not associate, one should not also avoid association with mayavadis who simply blaspheme Vaishnavas.
Okay, one quick point here, same point. Actually, what is association? See, I said by associating, these three things happen. Our desires get contaminated, our intelligence or our faith gets contaminated.
So, actually, we are associating with someone only when this is happening. If our desires are getting contaminated, then we are associating with somebody. Say for example, if I go to a company, and in my company my colleague is a mayavadi or my colleague is a materialistic person.
Now, only when his desires become my desires, am I actually associating with him? If there is no transfer of desires, then there is no association. So, we’ll discuss this more in our talk about positive association. So, the essence of association is transfer of desires.
Now, for example, if I come to a temple and associate with devotees, what should happen is that either I get the desire to chant Hare Krishna, desire to serve Krishna, desire to become a devotee. If I am not getting that desire, then I am not really associating. So, if by associating with mayavadis, we are not getting their desires, then we are not really, there is physical proximity may be there, but that is not association.
Thank you very much.