Overcoming Obstacles

Overcoming obstacles 1 – Focus not on rejecting desire, but on selecting desire – part 1

Overcoming Obstacles in Spiritual Life Alachua 2017 1 & 2

Overcoming obstacles 2 – Focus not on rejecting desire, but on selecting desire – part 2

Overcoming Obstacles in Spiritual Life Alachua 2017 1 & 2

Overcoming obstacles 3 – Let intelligence be your minister, not your master – part 1

Overcoming Obstacles in Spiritual Life – Alachua 2017 

Overcoming obstacles 4 – Let intelligence be your minister, not your master – part 2

Overcoming Obstacles in Spiritual Life – Alachua 2017 

Overcoming obstacles 5 – Focus not on how the world sees you, but on how you see the world – part 1

Overcoming Obstacles in Spiritual Life – Alachua 2017 

Overcoming obstacles 6 – Focus not on how the world sees you, but on how you see the world – part 2

Overcoming Obstacles in Spiritual Life – Alachua 2017 

Overcoming obstacles 7 – Focus less on detachment from the world and more on attachment to Krishna – part 1

Overcoming Obstacles in Spiritual Life – Alachua 2017

Overcoming obstacles 8 – Focus less on detachment from the world and more on attachment to Krishna – part 2

Overcoming Obstacles in Spiritual Life – Alachua 2017

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

So, talking about this, yeah, so the main thing I want to talk about is attachment to Krishna and how do we develop attachment. In the Bhakti Rasamrtha Sindhu has a whole analysis of how, what all we can do to develop our attraction towards Krishna. And one of the concepts that is talked about over there is Uddhipan.

Uddhipan essentially means spiritual stimulus. Anything that stimulates thoughts about Krishna, that stimulates remembrance of Krishna, that is called as Uddhipan. And within the Rasa theory that is given in the Bhakti Rasamrtha Sindhu, Uddhipan is a technical term.

But the word also has a general meaning which we can apply in our context. Just as we have, we use the word sense objects, in the sense that anything that triggers worldly desires within us. And there are many objects in this world and there are many sense objects also.

But among those many sense objects, there may be a few, when we encounter them, we start becoming agitated. So, those sense objects stimulate our emotions. Of course, when it is material sense objects, those emotions that are stimulated within us, they often drag us down.

But just as there are material sense objects which stimulate us, like that, we all can have some spiritual sense objects that stimulate us. Spiritual sense objects means manifestations of Krishna that are accessible through the senses. So, for example, the deities.

There are many deities in the world, in various temples. And even the same deities, they may be dressed in different ways on different days. We may find that a particular darshan of a particular deity, a particular dress, a particular decoration, that just charms us.

We feel so absorbed in it. We feel lost in that particular darshan. Then if we find that that's what attracts us, then we need to cherish that.

So, we keep that photo with us or look at it more frequently. And anyway, we find that we are getting attracted to Krishna. We can see that as a gift by which we can channel our consciousness towards Krishna.

So, if we find that a particular kirtan, a particular bhajan that attracts us, then we can cherish that consciously. So, sometimes we may find that while hearing Krishna's pastimes, there may be a particular pastime that we hear, Krishna's pastime or Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's pastime, that we feel so inspired by that pastime. Then we can hear that again and again.

We can contemplate that more and more. So, at one level, we hear the example of, say, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu would hear the Dhruva Maharaj's pastime hundreds of times, Prahlad Maharaj's bhajan hundreds of times. And we say this is an example of how much taste he had.

That's one way of looking at it. It is definitive too that he had a lot of taste for Krishna, Nila and Chaitanya. But another way of looking at it is, it was among the various pastimes of Bhagavatam, this was one where the Uddipan comes, where the stimulus comes, where the taste comes, and then one can hear again and again and again.

So, we can find out what is the Uddipan for us. And for each of us, it will be different. Sometimes even some one line from one verse.

You may say, oh, this is so wonderful. One of the prayers which I had learned in my childhood, and after I had forgotten about it, then one day one devotee quoted me. That was my favorite prayer in my childhood.

Just, Tomeva Mata cha Pita Tomeva, Tomeva Bandhu cha Sakha Tomeva, Tomeva Vidya Dravinam Tomeva, Tomeva Sarvam Mamadeva Deva. You are my father, you are my mother, you are my father, you are my brother, you are my friend, you are my wealth, you are my knowledge, oh Lord, you are my everything. So, it's a simple prayer.

I like the last line, Tomeva Sarvam Mamadeva Deva. Just recite that one line, it can become very devotional meditation for me. Now, for all of us, we have to find out what is the devotional meditation that works for us.

And whatever this Uddipan, we cherish that as a gift from Krishna. Not in a sahajiyaic sense, in that, oh, I have become an advanced devotee and I can think emotions in relationship with Krishna. Not like that, just that Krishna is merciful to me, even in my condition stage, Krishna has given me some glimpse of some spiritual emotions through this particular manifestation.

So, let me cherish that as a gift from Krishna. So, just as in the material world, which sense object attracts someone and why? We can't really analyze that. If a boy says I love a girl or a girl says I love a boy, we ask them, you know, give 21 reasons why you love her.

They can't really do that. We write something, but it doesn't express what they are feeling at that time. So, it's not, so similarly, it's not, so the point which I am making is that at a material level, when our emotions catch us, they just catch us.

So, and they are very powerful. We need to restrain them, of course, if that's leading us to non-devotional, anti-devotional activities. But the important thing is, sometimes in the process of bhakti also, we find that something attracts us towards Krishna.

And then we can see that as a gift. So, just as because of the material, because we are individuals, so one person may be attracted to a particular another person, a particular movie, a particular bike, a particular thing, this or that or whatever. They are individuals and they will be attracted like that.

So, we are individuals and we may all find something within the scope of bhakti that we are attracted to. And then we cherish that. And through that, we can develop a slow but steady connection towards Krishna.

And then that can also become our shield in the battle against temptation. So, when the desire started getting agitated and drawn towards material things, if we have some spiritual Uddipan which became close to us, accessible to us, and then that can immediately, very accessibly redirect our thoughts and emotions towards Krishna. So, again, here this Uddipan will often be very individual.

So, we may find that one thing works for us and something else works for somebody else. I think I mentioned this last time when I did the Shiksha Ashtakam course also, this example that I like to recite verses. And when I recite verses, if I go and take darshan and if I don't recite verses, I just can't connect.

But if I recite a verse and think, oh, the Lord who has been described in this verse, that Lord is manifest over here. Then I can connect very nicely. So, I once told in a class, we can recite verses and then we can connect with the Lord nicely.

And after that one devotee came and he said, you told me we should memorize and recite verses. Now, whenever I go in front of the Lord, trying to remember a verse causes me so much tension that whatever bhakti is there goes away. Earlier I used to feel bhakti when I took the darshan, but now I am thinking of the verse and forgetting how that bhakti is going away.

So, he is different. I am different. So, I was just giving that as an example.

It's not absolute principle. So, for that devotee, it might just be going in front of Krishna, seeing the form of Krishna. That itself may stimulate some emotions.

And I am not saying that verses should not be recited. There are standard verses which can be recited when you go in front of the Lord. But we have to find out what stimulates our devotional emotions.

This sort of stimulation of devotional emotions that becomes sahajiyaik only when we do this as a… when we make this into a replacement for the standard process of bhakti. If I go in front of the deity, I feel so much emotion. I don't need to chant these rounds.

I don't need to follow sadhana bhakti. I already have emotions for Krishna. If we are using this as a substitute for the process of sadhana bhakti, then that is sahajiyaik and that is undesirable.

But if we are using this as a supplement to the process of sadhana bhakti, we are doing the sadhana bhakti that is expected of us. But along with that, we have this as a supplement. Then we will find that it will stimulate us in a very positive and healthy way.

And we can channel our emotions towards Krishna. So whatever deepens we find, at a material level, because the mind is conditioned towards material attraction, material attachments. So at a material level, if we see something, if we find something which is enjoyable, that impression sticks very fast in the mind.

Automatically we rethink it, we re-contemplate it, we re-imagine it and then it becomes more and more of an impression within us. But because we are not so habituated to the practice of bhakti right now, even when we have some intense devotional experiences, still we may not cherish that consciously. Yes, I had a wonderful experience and then, we just go in the background of the mind and forget it.

But if we consciously recollect it, we try to relive it and redirect our emotions accordingly, then that can become a channel by which we can connect with Krishna. In the process of sadhana bhakti, the practice of sadhana bhakti will gradually bring about emotion for Krishna and our attraction to Krishna will gradually become stronger and stronger. But till then, if we have something which stimulates our emotions towards Krishna, then that can become a supplement, that can be something which can sustain us onwards when sometimes our inspiration to practice sadhana bhakti goes down or sometimes our temptations go up.

So, I conclude with this point that sadhana bhakti, how does it lead to attraction towards Krishna? That there are three aspects to it. When we say, just keep chanting Hare Krishna again and again, keep taking darshan again and again, our love for Krishna will develop. How does this happen? Actually, there are three aspects to it.

First is, in general, it's a matter of human psychology that repetition leads to attraction. We just keep doing something repeatedly. When a person is alcoholic, first time they drink, it's not very particularly palatable.

But they keep drinking it over a period of time, they become attached to it. Say an Indian comes to America, the Indian doesn't even know about baseball. But they are in a hostel and they keep watching others talking about baseball, they see baseball games and after six months they become attached to baseball.

So, it's a simple human psychological principle that repetition leads to attraction. That's the first thing. But that is for material things.

In bhakti, there are two more aspects to it. There is not just repetition, there is also purification. The soul has a natural attraction towards Krishna.

It is not that the soul has a natural attraction towards baseball or the soul has a natural attraction towards alcohol, it's not like that. So, even for something where there is no natural attraction, repetition can lead to attraction. But in the case of the soul and Krishna, the soul has a natural attraction towards Krishna, which is covered over because of the impurities.

And when we repeatedly connect with all pure Krishna, then that repeated contact with all pure Krishna removes the impurities within us. And then as the impurities become removed, then the soul's natural attraction towards Krishna becomes more and more manifest. So, the repetition in itself leads to attraction, but the repetition, because the repetition is of contact with the all pure Krishna, that leads to purification and that causes the natural attraction to awaken also.

And thirdly, just the repetition, it pleases Krishna. And Krishna bestows His mercy. Krishna reveals His all attractiveness more and more.

The soul is naturally attracted to Krishna, but in the conditioned stage, we are not able to perceive Krishna's all attractiveness. Krishna reveals His all attractiveness more and more. And as we please Krishna by the practice of bhakti and He reveals His all attractiveness, then we become more and more attracted, we become absorbed in Him.

So, this is a process that happens gradually, but it happens surely, just by the steady practice. Now, when we say wake up in the morning, if we are doing our japa in some natural place, then initially it's dark, and then slowly it's twilight, the sun starts rising. Now, we, if we keep observing and chanting and we open our eyes, it's daytime.

Actually, the sun was continuously rising, but at one particular time we realized, oh, it's become daytime now. So, the sunrise was continuous, was gradual and continuous. But our realization that the sun has risen, I said one particular, oh, the sun has risen, it's day now.

So, like that, when we keep practicing bhakti, the heart's attraction towards Krishna keeps rising up, rising up, rising up, gradually. But as we keep practicing bhakti, at one time we realize, you know, I'm attracted to Krishna, I don't like these things. This thing is still not worth it.

We find that our attraction to Krishna has come about. So, by the persistent practice of bhakti, we say that the process is evolutionary. It's gradual.

The process is evolutionary, but the result is revolutionary. The result is a revolutionary transformation of our heart, by which the heart that is attracted to worldly things becomes attracted to Krishna and absorbed in Krishna. That is Shri Prabhupada's mercy to us that he has given us this extremely powerful process of bhakti by which the heart that has been attached to worldly things for so many lifetimes in the past, that heart can become attracted to Krishna and can gradually be transported back to Krishna's eternal abode.

So, in summary, I spoke about the concept of uddhipan, our individual spiritual stimulus. Those, just as there, for each of us there may be particular sense objects which excite our thoughts towards worldly things, similarly, for us, individually, there will be certain spiritual manifestations of Krishna, which you can call as spiritual sense objects, which will excite our thoughts and emotions towards Krishna. So, we need to individually find that and cherish that.

They can supplement us in the practice of sadhana bhakti, when we either feel not so motivated to practice sadhana bhakti or we feel too attracted by worldly temptations. Then we can channel our emotions towards Krishna through this uddhipan, whatever it is, which we find for ourselves by our practice of bhakti. Whereas the worldly stimuli, naturally, the mind repeats them and makes them deeper impressions.

The spiritual stimuli, we will have to consciously cultivate them and cherish them. And gradually, they will become more and more natural for us. And this is like a supplement, and the standard process of sadhana bhakti is that how it leads to attraction to Krishna is simply repetition generates attraction.

That's a normal human psychological principle. Secondly, repetition involves purification because the soul has a natural attraction to Krishna. The contact with all-pure Krishna removes the impurities and that also leads to attraction towards Krishna.

Thirdly, Krishna is all-attractive and when he sees us practicing bhakti diligently, then he reveals his all-attractiveness and then that completely conquers our heart. So the process itself is gradual, like the sun rising. It's evolutionary.

But the moment when we realize the sun has risen, oh, the darkness is gone. So the result is revolutionary. Thank you very much.

Hare Krishna. So are there any other questions? I think there was one question. So there was one question I was asked in between that if, I will paraphrase the question, if it is not correct, you can tell me.

If we are detached from family life, then is that favorable for bhakti? Yeah, please can you repeat? If one is more attached to Krishna and God-centered activities, less attached to family activities or responsibilities, can you repeat the question? Hare Krishna. If one is more attached to Krishna and God-centered activities and less attached to family activities or responsibilities, when you think of bad karma to that person, you can repeat the question. So if one is more attached to Krishna and bhakti activities and less to family responsibilities, does that lead to bad karma? As devotees, we don't have to be constantly driven by karma considerations.

Yes, karma is an important consideration to have. But we are not driven primarily by karma considerations. It is one factor which we have to consider.

If we start always becoming calculative based on karma, where do we stop? For example, a baby is crying. Should the mother think the baby is crying because of her own karma? Obviously, it is the mother's duty to take care of the baby. So the point is, karma analysis is important, but we have to have other concentrations also.

So in general, attraction to Krishna is auspicious. And whichever ashram one is in, if one has attraction, that is very auspicious. At the same time, how one acts on that attraction towards Krishna, that one has to balance.

Sometimes it happens that we may feel it is attraction to Krishna, but our mind is so tricky that actually it is not so much attraction to Krishna as it is an escape way from the trouble of materialistic life. I was involved many years in college outreach. So there are many students who fall in love with Shastra just before exams.

They will say, oh these studies, they are all mundane, they are anyway temporary. I love Ram. And the Shastra also, they will not be interested in philosophical books of Prabhupada.

They are interested in stories, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Nilamrata. So is that really love for Shastra? That is simply they are using attraction to Shastra as a rationalization for not doing studies. Because studies require hard work, it requires discipline.

And they are using this as a shortcut. So we have to be honest with ourselves that when I say I am attracted to Krishna, is it that I am using that attraction to Krishna? Because material life is difficult. And taking up responsibility in material life can be demanding.

And Krishna Bhakti can seem very joyful. Comfortable, chant, dance, say a nice Katha. It can seem very nice.

Relatively it can seem much easier. So the test is that actually, the way Prabhupada taught Bhakti is that if we are attracted to Krishna, we take up responsibility for Krishna. We take up services for Krishna.

And then the whole concept of taking up responsibility means that we have to learn to resist our mind. When I take up responsibility, I am going to do this service. The mind says, I am really bored, don't do it.

It says, no, I will be there, I will cook the prasadam, I will bring the prasadam. It is so boring, I don't want to do it. But if you are taking responsibility means you have to fight against the mind.

So if we are attracted to Krishna, then we can begin not so much by rejecting material life or rejecting material responsibilities. We can begin by taking up some responsibility for Krishna's service. And as we do that, we will really find out how deep rooted my attraction to Krishna is.

If we have that commitment to continue studying Him, then we are not just using Krishna Bhakti as an escape way to avoid the difficulty of material life. We are actually genuinely attracted to Krishna. And then if say we are in family life, then we have to, we cannot neglect our family responsibilities.

So we have to come to some equitable balance by discussing with other family members. Maybe in the past we were planning to be very materially ambitious and do a lot of things in material life. But we may downscale our aspirations there.

But then it has to be done in consultation. We cannot abandon our family responsibilities. Prabhupada himself set the example that although his spiritual master told him to preach, but he actually did his family responsibilities for almost 30-40 years after that, after that instruction and only then he renounced the world.

So generally speaking, it's only after a committed practice of Bhakti for a significant number of years that one should consider completely giving up family responsibility. There can be some amount of downsizing that can be done of one's material life. But giving up is not at all a good idea.

In India a lot of young people are now becoming brahmacharis. So in Pune and Mumbai where I am, in Pune there are almost 150-200 brahmacharis. In Mumbai also there are 150 brahmacharis.

So then here we have a policy. If any young boy wants to join as a brahmachari, in India the family structure is quite strong even now. So especially sons are expected to take care of their parents.

Sons are expected to arrange for the marriage of their sisters. So we have a policy that no boy can join the temple directly from college. You cannot leave your studies and join the temple.

You have to complete your studies, get a job, work and get job experience. The idea is that because what happens if people who don't have job experience, in college, it's just based on the mood. Sometimes I don't feel like going for class, I bunk the class.

We can do whatever we want. But once you go into office, you cannot bunk the office when we want. So when they get an experience of the toughness of materialistic life, then later on they come to the ashram also.

If they find that life is difficult, they don't think that, oh, they have the experience of what really material life also is. And not only work in a job, but also they are expected to complete their family responsibilities. That means if their sisters are to be married, whatever financial arrangements are required, they do that.

Sometimes they wait to join till the sister gets married. Because India is a conservative society in many ways. So sometimes the sister's marriage may be, marriage prospects may be affected if the boy is going to become a brahmachari.

So the boy delays his joining till he becomes, till the sister gets married. And often boys are also told to arrange for some substantial financial savings for their parents. It's not like whatever the parents have, love that the parents have given, we are giving money in exchange for that.

We can't do. We can't repay the love of the parents simply through money. But it is that, it is our duty to offer some financial security for them.

So now this is, I'm giving this as an example. I'm not saying this has to be a standard everywhere. I'm just giving this as an example that even for someone who has not entered grahastha life, even they are expected to do their family responsibilities and then join.

So what to speak of somebody who is already in grahastha life? It is not so easy to just, we cannot use our bhakti as a rationalization for running away from material responsibilities. And sometimes when we separate this, you know, this is material, this is spiritual, to some extent the separation is important. So that we give time for our bhakti activities, which are directly spiritual.

But on another level, what is material and what is spiritual? The essence of spiritual is actually a service attitude. I may come to a temple, but if I'm in the mood, oh, I'm such a great devotee, how many people are coming down and bowing down to me? I'm not in a devotional mood at all. So essence of bhakti is a service attitude.

And sometimes even in our family responsibilities, we can actually develop that service attitude. We can see our family relationships as a fortune to serve Krishna. And that way, as I said, any responsibility forces us to fight against the mind.

So even our family responsibilities can force us to fight against the mind. And by fighting against the mind, if we learn to fight over there, that fight can help us in our bhakti also. So once we start practicing bhakti, we separate the material and spiritual in terms of time.

OK, I have to give some time to go to the temple. I have to give some time to chanting for shastric study. But then after that, there is no need to constantly analyze this is material, this is spiritual.

No, we should see all activities as a service to Krishna. So taking care of our family members, taking care of our children, it's all a service to Krishna. Because ultimately, the spiritual, the essence of the spiritual is the attitude of service.

So if we develop that service attitude, then whichever ashram we are in, we can grow over there. Does it answer your question? Thank you. Yes, Brahmadeva.

You have another mic? Another will come here. You can have that. You mentioned three points of the evolution of sadhana bhakti.

The last one being repetition pleases Krishna. What about mechanical, mechanically? If that repetition is mechanical… So if our repetition is simply mechanical, will it please Krishna? naśṭe prāyeṣu abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevaya bhagvatir uttamaśloke bhaktir bhavati naśṭeke This verse we often recite. So there the word is prāyeṣu, most of it.

That most of the anarthas are removed by hearing of the bhāgavata. And if you look at the series of the verses, later on it says tadārjas tamo bhāva kāmalobhādayasye that gradually with the practice rajogunatamogana will go away, kāmalobh will go away. So Śrīla Prabhupāda in this purport of naśṭe prāyeṣu abhadreṣu said, that simply by the mechanical activities of hearing and chanting also purification happens.

But there are anarthas which remain. It's not complete purification. So how does mechanical activity lead to purification? It's like at one level, see Krishna is all pure and the break out contact with Krishna, it leads to purification.

So just the contact with Krishna also purifies. But purification has two aspects to it. One is the removal of our attraction to things other than Krishna.

And the second is the revival of our attraction towards Krishna. And the revival of our attraction towards Krishna requires our conscious investment of emotions. If our investment of emotions is not there, then how can relationship develop? Love can be one way, but a loving relationship has to be two way.

We can love someone, but if that person doesn't love us back, then it's not a relationship that is there. So Krishna offers his love for us by making himself manifested through the holy name, through the bhāgavatam, through the deities. But then we have to invest our consciousness, we have to invest our emotion.

So mechanical also leads to purification, but it is partial purification. The complete purification will happen when we invest our consciousness and our emotions in the practice of bhakti. Does that answer your question? Thank you.

Yes, ma'am. There's a tension between a rigidity and a fluidity that we find in every religious movement. We're no different.

There is this rigidity with artistic projection, in this case, when we're defining the state of culture or whatever. And there's a fluidity that we have to adjust things to the circumstances. So there's a major tension in the society.

Much more than we've been talking about. I wanted to see what your thoughts might be on this. Nothing controversial.

In every tradition, there is this tension between rigidity, keeping things as they are, and fluidity. That is adjusting things according to time, place, circumstance. Yeah.

If you see the religions which have grown, they have had to have fluidity. I'll consider two examples. In America, there is the Amish culture.

The Amish are a group of Christians who live in a very insular way. They don't even use much of technology. They're rigid.

And they've been staying on generation after generation. But then they don't expand. Some of their ranks also go away.

And on the other hand, we see, if you want to really see fluidity, it's the same Christianity which has come to India. Christians have adopted so many Vedic forms. So there are some Christian scholars, whatever names are there in the biblical tradition, they studied Sanskrit and they have found Sanskrit equivalent names.

So even when people become Christian, they change their name to another Vedic name only. So that it doesn't create hostility with the parent culture. Because say somebody is born as Ayur, and then suddenly you become Thomas, Alwai or something like that.

That creates a tension in their community. So they become Christian in their faith, but they don't change their name in a way that will provoke the community. And there are many, so in fact, one of the, I read a statement about, it was like basically the agenda to Christianize India.

And they said that Christianity, if it is to triumph in India, it has to become more Christian in spirit and more Indian in form. So they have done it in many big ways. There are Christian monks who we are suffering now in India.

And at the time of Christian initiation or when people become Christian, instead of having that sacred water or in addition to sacred water, they follow the Indian tradition and recite some mantra in the year. They also perform home fire sacrifices. There are South Indians who are very attached to Vishnu Sahasrana.

So there are Christian Sanskrit scholars who have made Jesus Sahasrana. In Orissa, there is the tradition of worshipping the mother goddess. So the Christian missionaries go to India and they say that, you know, we are worshipping Mari Amma.

Mari Amma, Amma is mother and Mari is Virgin Mary. So they change the name and they have songs in their tribal languages. According to one survey, actually the Bible has been translated into more Indian languages than the Bhagavad Gita has been translated.

So what they have done is, in a sense, from the point of view of conservation of Vedic culture, we say it is alarming. But from the point of view of their vigour in preaching, it is, they are very vigorous. So without that adaptation, they will not be able to stay in India for long.

So same way, there is adaptation that is required. There is fluidity. For any tradition to grow, fluidity is required.

And you see, fluidity is a part of, what to speak of the Vedic culture, even the Gaudiya Vishnu culture. You see, the Indian history, when Buddhism came, Buddhism actually was preached in Pali and Prakrit, which were the local languages of the masses. And the Brahmins at that time, they said that, you know, we are pure, we will teach only in Sanskrit.

And then what happened was, the common, the Brahmins were speaking Sanskrit, but the common people, they couldn't make sense of the rituals. And whatever Buddhism and Jainism were taught in the local language, they were influenced by that. And once they were influenced by that, lot of people converted to Buddhism and Jainism.

Not only that, actually especially from something like the 1st century AD to 5th century AD, till Shankaracharya came, a large part of India was ruled by Buddhists and Jains. And many Buddhists and Jains, after they became mass religions, there were Buddhists and Jains who also became scholars in Sanskrit. And in the 1st to 5th centuries, actually the number of Sanskrit books about Buddhism and Jainism that were written are more than the number of Sanskrit books about the Vedic religion.

So, by reaching the masses, by doing what it took to reach the masses, they eventually reached the classes also. So, the point I am making is that this fluidity has always been there. And even in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, if we see, when Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's followers went to Manipur and they preached in Manipur.

So, at that time, the Manipuri Vaishnavas, they became followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, but they did not adopt the Bengali dress or the Bengali culture. They still had the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, they had the Manipuri dress, Manipuri culture and they became Manipuri Gaudiya Vaishnavas. So, they had their own distinctive brand of culture.

And if you see in India also, I am from Maharashtra. So, in Maharashtra, Krishna Bhakti is quite different from say the Krishna Bhakti in North India, which is different from the Krishna Bhakti in Tamil Nadu, different from the Krishna Bhakti in Bengal. So, the local variation has always been there.

And it is just necessary for people to feel at home in some spiritual practices. So, the fluidity, if we see from one perspective, Sri Prabhupada himself was extraordinarily fluid. If he hadn't been, he couldn't even have come to America at all.

Conservative culture said that sannyasis should not cross the ocean. Prabhupada not only came to America, as a sannyasi, he performed marriages. As a sannyasi, he gave Brahman Diksha to women.

He did many things which are, first of all, just giving Diksha to people who were not a part of the Arya dharma, Aryavarta, outside Varanasi, that itself is radical. So, then after that, what has happened is that there are three broad schools of thought now. That is, you know, Prabhupada did some changes.

But then Prabhupada gave a standard in his books. So, the idea is what Prabhupada gave in his books was a standard. And now that his school has become stabilized, so we should go back to the standard that he gave in his books.

The adjustment that he's given were for the time and place circumstances. That's one school of thought. We could say that is extreme conservative.

The second is that as Prabhupada was an acharya, he could do adjustments. So, therefore, we should stick only to the adjustments he has done and nothing more. A third is Prabhupada did adjustments and he taught us that adjustments are essential for making Krishna Bhakti vital.

And we should also, in a mood of being faithful to Prabhupada, make adjustments according to time and place circumstances. This we could say is the liberal understanding. So, now there are leaders in our movement who all feel strongly about all these three positions.

So, to a large extent, it depends on where within the spectrum of Krishna Bhakti one's inspiration comes from. See, within Krishna Bhakti also there are, there can be multiple values. One value could be, say, fair-mindedness, sensitivity.

There is one set of values. Another set of values could be, you know, conformity, preservation, belonging, a sense of belonging to a group, group identity and conformity. This could be, all these are a part of Bhakti.

So, what happens with the liberal, with the conservatives? Their focus is on, they value, say, group identity, conformity, preservation. They feel this is the most important. Whereas, those who are on the liberal side, they feel, yes, in the tradition, that we have to be fair to everyone.

We have to be sensitive to everyone. So, they value fair-mindedness and sensitivity more. So, all four, we can say, they are devotional values only.

Or rather, they are all compatible with devotional values. But some people consider these values more important. Others consider these values more important.

Some people, we have to be fair-minded, we have to be sensitive. You know, people are coming from very different culture and they have different conceptions. We have to be sensitive to the way they feel.

So, those who focus on this, the idea of being fair-minded and sensitive, they tend to become liberal. Those who focus more on group identity and conformity, they tend to be conservative. So, now, whether we like it or not, a tradition that does not have fluidity in it, that tradition, sooner or later, simply becomes a relic in a museum.

It just cannot continue. So, for it to continue, there has to be fluidity. But unfortunately, there are some people who also feel that we are not made to be popular.

So, even if not many people come, still, we are being pure. So, it's a matter of that some people, no matter whatever arguments are presented, they will just filter it through their perspective. So, and other things will be neglected.

So, therefore, what needs to be done is that, you know, there will be devotees who are inspired to share Krishna Bhakti in a way which they feel will be relevant and appealing to their audiences. And in whatever way is practical in their situation, they have to do that. The problem comes when, rather than doing what it takes to attract people to Krishna, we spend time in criticizing each other.

If actually, we do some adjustments, but maybe do them, we could say, somewhat below the radar. Now, not make a big splash about them. Just do whatever adjustments are required and help people to become devotees or help people to come, raise their consciousness, come closer to Krishna.

And once there is some vibrant example of devotional results coming as a result of some adjustments, then the hostility will go down. So, in a sense, it is that, in some cases, talking just doesn't help. Talking only makes things worse.

So, it leads only to arguments. Sometimes only actions is what helps. So, but we have to do actions in a way that doesn't provoke others too much.

It's not easy. It's not easy. But basically, the fluidity is essential.

And there is, of course, the fear that the fluidity will lead to dilution. And it is a valued fear. But then, yesterday I was speaking that, we have the fear that we may relativize the absolute.

But instead of that, we can go to the other extreme and we can absolutize the relative. And that is also an unhealthy thing. So, if somebody can actually do whatever adjustments are required and manifest the result of people with race consciousness, people who have become devotees, then that action, that fruit will actually help people, help remove the animosity that is there in the debate to that living example that is seen, that will settle the verdict much more persuasive than any amount of arguments.

Nancy? Thank you. Yes, please. You covered it at the end.

The only common topic is the Amish double every 20 years. By reproduction primarily? No, the Amish. No, by reproduction primarily? How do they double? Primarily through their own children, but some do be converts as well.

But every 20 years they double. Double? I didn't know that. Well, they're still small.

Yeah, of course. Double small is small, but they are double every 20 years. Okay, thank you.

Yes, please. Hare Krishna, thank you. In regards to this discussion of rigidity and frugality, you come up in a previous class at a different time, but we now know how to bring up the distinction between principle and rigidity.

Yeah. So then it becomes an issue of who is qualified to distinguish between principle and rigidity, or what are the principles, and where do we draw the line? Yeah. And so it seems to create a defining perspective, but then… Yeah.

Yeah, if we can adjust the details, but not the principles. But then how do we decide what is the principle and what is the detail? I think Prabhupada's example itself is very strongly indicative. We can see which things he adjusted according to time and place circumstances.

So if he adjusted those things, that means he considered the details to be adjustable. So if he did a particular thing in one way here, another way there, that indicates that he didn't consider that as a cardinal principle. He considered that as adjustable thing.

So at least the thing that Prabhupada adjusted, I feel that there should not be any opposition to adjusting those things. And then some further things have to be adjusted, that is going to be difficult to do. And over a period of time, what will happen is, that right now we have like one Krishna consciousness movement, where we have, this is inside the movement, this is outside the movement.

And if you do this, you are outside. If you do this, you are inside. So it's a very rigid division.

It was there in the past. But over a period of time, what will happen is that, instead of a rigid inside or outside a division, we will have a set of concentric circles of expanding radii. So wherein, who is a devotee and who is not a devotee, that may not necessarily be defined by one line.

There can be devotees of different natures, practicing in different ways. They are all faithful to Prabhupada. But they are expressing their faithfulness and service to Prabhupada in different ways.

And that's how, so the conservatives may consider, may will comprise one circle, which is relatively smaller. The liberals may comprise another circle, which is relatively bigger. And that's how gradual things will probably be differentiated.

But as far as what Prabhupada himself had just said, we can at least consider those are the things which he considered details. Yes, please go on. And let everybody do their service.

Then we'll all be together in a greater way. Yeah, thank you. Any other? Yes, Krishna.

Thank you. Let's continue. Thank you for coming.

I think we need to come three or four times. The soul's constitution makes a position to love Krishna. And because originally the soul was adamant, wanted to separate the joy, so we are putting the situation here.

And so it acquired the mind, intelligence, and ego. And because of the soul's desire, this mind, intelligence, and ego are working to put it on the sides. But then we say that when the soul is leaving the body, we are saying that the mind, intelligence, and the ego are carrying the soul.

That's kind of, can you explain one second question? One, we'll take one. So when we say that the soul leaves the body and goes to another body, is the soul going by its desires or is it that the mind, intelligence, and ego are carrying the soul? Actually both are true. Suppose say somebody is watching the TV and a thief comes in the house.

And this person is so caught in watching the TV that the thief comes and picks up the TV and starts stealing the TV. And this person who is watching the TV, instead of stopping the thief, continues running after the thief and watching the TV. So, like TV is like the subtle body.

TV is the subtle body. When the Yama Dutas come, the Yama Dutas they put their Pash, the soul is Achala. The Yama Dutas cannot actually touch the soul.

The Yama Pasha catches the subtle body. And they drag the subtle body. And because the soul is still attached to the conceptions of enjoyment that are there in the subtle body, the soul goes along with that.

So we could say that the soul is going by its desires. The person is oneself running along. Soul is going by its desires.

At the same time, the soul is also, where the TV is going, that's where the person is running. So like that, where the subtle body is being pulled, that's where the person goes. Now where the Yama Dutas take the subtle body, that is determined both on the desire of the person and the karma of the person.

So basically the subtle body contains the desires which we have ourselves cultivated over a period of time. And that's how both our own desire and the subtle body influence both work together in taking the soul to the next destination. Thank you.

Okay. Last question. So it is said that for the pure devotee, the subtle body dissolves.

I think this is a little difficult discussion. Okay, I'll give one example and I'll illustrate it. So when you talk about ego, ego is an object and ego is also a concept.

What do I mean by object? There are eight elements which comprise Krishna's separated energies. So earth, water, fire, air. Like that, ego is one of the elements.

That means it's a concrete, it's a thing. It's not a gross thing, but it's a thing. So we could say it's like a software in a computer.

I cannot exactly point out, okay, where is the software? It's not a physical part to point out, but it is a thing. So this is ego as an object. But Krishna uses the word ahankara at other times also as a concept.

Ahankara means arrogance, pride. Ahankara moodhatma kartahanti manneti. So now the ego as an object is a part of the mechanism for the soul to function in this world.

So the ego as an object will not be dissolved. It's a part of the functioning mechanism. But the ego as a concept, that means here we have the same word, but it refers to object, it refers to a concept also.

So the ego as a concept, when you talk about ahankara as arrogance, that will be dissolved for a pure body. Similarly, when we talk about a subtle body being dissolved, as long as the soul is here in this body, in this world, for the soul to interact with the gross body, the subtle body is an essential intermediary mechanism. So without that mechanism, soul cannot interact with the body.

So whether it is a conditioned soul or a liberated soul, just like they all eat food, they all need oxygen. Similarly, for functioning in this world, a subtle body is required. So in terms of the object, subtle body is not destroyed.

But if we consider that as a concept, when we say subtle body is the reservoir of worldly desires, just like ahankara is the conception of arrogance. So that conception of the accumulated worldly desire that we enjoy, that one wants to enjoy, that conception will no longer exist. So the subtle body as an object will continue to exist, it will be fully purified.

But subtle body as a concept in terms of having to be a reservoir of desires, that will be dissolved completely. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.