Part 4 – Markine Bhagavad Dharma talks Chaitanya Charan

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
We have to do that also.
Thank you very much. My dear Lord, please guide us all so that we can develop the faith as Shila Prabhupada had that human nature is ultimately changeable. Hare Krishna.
So, today we continue our discussion on Markini Bhagwat Dharma. So, would you like to sing this line? Or what we will do is read it a little bit first. We will take one line and we will sing it.
Am I audible to everyone? Oh, it is connected, it is lost. Okay, good. So, here the theme is Prabhupada is continuing the discussion of So, what is exactly saying here? How will they understand the rasa of Krishna katha, of message of Krishna? So, nijabhashya means, may you bring them under your control.
And that theme will be continued in the next words that ultimately, even people coming into maya and coming out of maya is under your control. So, here, see when we talk about faith, there are many different levels of faith. That faith is in God’s existence, that God exists.
But God may exist, but beyond that, there is faith in God’s relevance. God exists, God matters. Beyond that, there is faith in God’s benevolence.
Benevolence is God cares. So, we may believe that God exists and that is important to believe, but that is a very preliminary level. Yeah, God exists here.
God exists there, I exist here. He is happy there, I am happy here. So, we are feeling very relevant.
So, God is relevant. Now, why is God relevant? Maybe he is like the administrator of the world and we have to follow his laws. But then there are kings or heads of state, they may be rulers, but they do not really care for people.
So, God cares, that is benevolence. Now, in benevolence means God exists, God matters and God cares. So, each of these is a different level of faith.
And if we consider, if somebody is trying to share a spiritual message, the faith that they require is not just in God. Yes, that God cares and God is very merciful. That is a common theme in spiritual literature.
Yes, that is a very important faith. At the same time, for somebody who is trying to share a spiritual message, you know, there is faith required in God, but there is also faith required in human beings. More specifically, we can come to or more generically, faith that human nature is reformable, that people can change for the better.
Now, this is one of the most difficult faiths to have. That to some extent, when we study religious traditions, see, even if you consider movies, people are interested in people. And nowadays, the idea overall is that even if somebody is a villain, then that is there are good people and there are bad people.
But then the idea is, often the bad people, they are not intrinsically bad. That is the idea. Whenever there are villains, nowadays, you consider many movies, western movies or Indian whatever, villains often have an origin story.
Okay. How did they become villains? Maybe they had a very bad childhood. Maybe they were exploited when this happened, that happened.
So, in India also, there was a series about Ravan, about how actually he is, he is just a misunderstood warrior. He is not an evil person, he is just a misunderstood person. So, sometimes there is an origin story and sometimes there is a redemption arc.
Redemption is more of a transformation, a moral transformation. So, there is a redemption arc that a villain at the last moment changes or somebody close to the villain changes and becomes a good person or comes over to the good side. So, quite often nowadays, the tendency is that we want to believe that people can change.
And so, there is this faith that people can change. Yesterday we discussed, Prabhupada did not see the obstacle as cultural or linguistic. He is seeing it from much more of a Shastric perspective.
He is seeing it as the modes of passion, ignorance. They are what? Are preventing people from changing. They are not able to appreciate Krishna Katha.
So, his point is that people can change if they get a higher taste. So, this idea that there are two different things that people can change and how they can change. So, Prabhupada’s emphasis is how they can change.
That is, if they understand the message and the sweetness of Krishna consciousness, then they can change. How will they understand it? And for that, he is saying, Krishna, you have to have mercy on me. You can bring them under your control.
He is not saying bring them under my control. Bring them under your control so that they can be changed. So, we will talk about these two things.
We often talk about getting a higher taste and that is very important. But fundamental to that is this vision that can people change? Are people basically good or people basically bad? And can people change? That is the question. So, now we may say that this question comes up.
See, can people change? If we go back to this question, is it reformable? Now, can people change? This we can ask at various levels. We are primarily considered a spiritual level. Now, can somebody who is not a devotee become a devotee? Now, this can also be quite often at a level of, in today’s world, at the level of addiction.
You can call it behaviour. Like if somebody is an addict, can addiction actually be given up? Can addiction be overcome? And it is very difficult. And lots of people have relapses.
And nowadays, more and more, the tendency is to consider addiction to be like a disease. And we will talk about that also a little bit later. But in between, we can have at a ethical level.
Now, ethical level, people are not so much concerned in terms of, say, when somebody is corrupt and a corrupt person will become not corrupt or something like that. That is important. But at an ethical level, where it concerns people most is in terms of, say, relationships.
If somebody is unfaithful to someone, somebody has an extramarital relationship and that ruins people’s lives. And some people may, we are not talking here about criminal activities. See, in the Mahabharata, there is a difference between immoral and illegal.
Not everything illegal is necessarily immoral. And not everything, like in some countries, there may be certain things which are considered illegal. But they may not necessarily be immoral.
Like if you go to the Middle East, certain spices that we eat, normally they cannot be taken to those countries. Because their idea, those spices can be used for drugs. So, something, so illegal and everything immoral, should it be made illegal? Say, for example, that is a big question in Bhishma’s instructions to Yudhishthira.
Say, for example, lying is a bad thing. But should lying be made illegal? Now, illegal means, should the police be involved in pursuing cases of ordinary lying? Lying is bad, but should police be involved in that? How many police will you need? If inside a family, this person spoke a lie, and if courts have to, now there are certain formal documents where we can find legally, their lying is serious. So, the point over here is, when I am talking about ethical, say, now in today’s world, from a legal perspective, if two people consensually have sex, that is not considered illegal.
But even among materialistic people, majority of people, nowadays the culture suggests premarital sex is not considered very bad, but extramarital sex is still considered very bad. That is the idea that you are, I don’t want to be a homewrecker. I don’t want to ruin a family.
So, the idea is that there is a certain sense of pondering and decency, even in mainstream society. Now, it may be decreasing. In California, especially in America, there is an increasing trend toward what they call open marriages.
Open marriages means people are married legally, but both husband and wife, you consent to each other, you can have a relationship with anyone whom you want. It is ridiculous. Not just ridiculous, horrendous.
The point is, that has still, even in materialist society, that has not caught up. So, the idea is that everybody has certain boundaries. The specific boundaries may vary, but everybody has boundaries.
So, there can be something which is immoral and something which is illegal. So, say, if somebody in the relationship, another person betrays them in some way, and then should we trust that person? Will that person change? So, whether people can change or not is a question with everyone. Now, of course, a more uncomfortable question is whether I can change or not, isn’t it? But, yeah, we may think most of the time, okay, yeah, it would be good if I change.
It’s no big problem if I don’t change at all. I’m a good enough person, right? Other person has to change right now, big problem. We often have that idea.
But if we truly, if we go back over here, if we truly believe in Krishna, so Krishna is not just a deity who exists high up there somewhere. Krishna, as we know, all of existence exists within Krishna. So, we exist in Krishna and Krishna exists in us.
So, if God exists in everyone, if everyone is a part of God, that means everyone is reformable. Everyone is changeable. Everyone can be changed.
And that is a foundational faith that everyone needs to have. Now, everyone can change is very different from everyone will change. Can means there’s potential is there.
Will is more of a prediction. Now, whether they will change or not, that depends. But this theme that everyone and change.
So, can change and everyone will change. But these two are not equal. Now, in terms of our philosophy, which is true? Everyone can change, everyone will change.
Everyone can change, this is the potential. This is true. Will everyone will change? Only circumstances? It depends.
Let’s see what it depends on. But it depends. We’ll talk about what is.
So, will is more like a prediction. Now, we can say in one sense, this is also true. Like everyone will go back to Godhead.
But it may take, at this end, this one lifetime, it may take 10 lifetimes, it may take 100 lifetimes, it may take a million lifetimes. So, ultimately, everybody will be delivered, we can say. But we’re not talking about that kind of ultimate.
That’s why the word Nitya is sometimes used. It is some sort of Nityabhadra. Now, that means that the bondage has been there for so long that it is almost like eternal.
Krishna also uses the word for Kama, Nitya Vairena. Nitya Vairena is, it is eternal enemy. Eternal enemy means that a normal enemy will kill us and that is the end of the enmity.
But lust is present inside our consciousness, inside our mind, Indriyani Mano Mudhir, and it will go with the subtle body to the next body. And it will keep tormenting us. So, it’s not only lust, it can be anger, greed, whatever the samskaras go with us.
So, in that sense, it can go on for a very long time. So, it’s not a prediction. So, is human nature changeable or not? So, it’s changeable, that’s our understanding.
So, now, at an abstract level, it’s very easy to say that. I think I mentioned this quote, an American comedian, he said that I love humanity. It is just human beings I don’t get along with.
What it means is that in abstract, say that I love humanity doesn’t cost anything. But it’s when we get involved with people, that’s when all the messy complexity of people comes in. And can people change? Will they change? Can I trust someone? Can I count on someone? All these questions, they start coming up.
So, the first confidence that a devotee needs to have, anybody who’s trying to outreach, is that people can change. And that is almost foundational to spirituality. And this is where, have any of you heard this term called SBNR? So, you are in Infosys, but maybe you know that concept, but you have not heard the term.
SBNR is spiritual, but not religious. A lot of people say that I am a spiritual person, but I’m not a religious person. Have you heard this formulation, not the term SBNR? I’m spiritual, but not religious.
A lot of people say that. Now, there are many reasons for that. See, one of the reasons is that religions, if you look at the history of the world, lots of conflicts have happened because of religion or in the name of religion, whichever way you want to put it.
There is a difference. But the point is, in the name of religion, a lot of conflicts have happened. Of course, some people therefore say religion itself is the cause of war.
Now, if you consider the biggest wars, World War I, World War II, religion was not a cause in them at all. So, it is not that religion alone is the cause of war. But the point is, quite often, when a person is more religious than spiritual, see, quite often, religion becomes an external designation.
It doesn’t have to become the way it is. Religion becomes an external designation, whereas spiritual is often seen as an internal disposition. So, religious means, okay, I belong to this religion, you belong to that religion.
And you don’t belong to this group, therefore, you’re wrong or you’re a bad person. So, there was a, once in Los Angeles, there’s a famous bridge, earlier people from there, people would jump and commit suicide. So, on this bridge, the people were standing, I think San Francisco, so one person was standing over there, he was about to jump.
Another person came and said, don’t jump, don’t end your life, don’t jump off the bridge. Why shouldn’t I jump off? No one loves me, no one cares for me, no one will even notice if I live or die. The other person said, but Jesus loves you.
Are you a Christian? He said, yes. And what about you? I’m also a Christian. This person was on the other end of the bridge, walking closer and closer.
He said, which Christian are you? Catholic or Protestant? He said, I’m a Protestant. This person on the bridge said, he’s on the bridge only still, I’m a Protestant. He said, I’m also a Protestant.
Then this person coming closer, which Protestant are you? He says, I’m a Baptist. Oh, wonderful, I’m also a Baptist. Person is coming closer and closer, which Baptist are you? He said, I’m a Southern Baptist.
Oh, I’m also Southern Baptist. Then he comes closer, which Southern Baptist are you? He says, I’m a Reformed Southern Baptist. Jump down and die, you infidel.
So, in the Southern Baptist, there are Orthodox Southern Baptists and there’s a Reformed Southern Baptist. So, people can become, when they become religious, they can become so narrow-minded that there can be 10 things similar, but if one thing is dissimilar, you are a deviant, you are a fallen person, you are a terrible person. So, religion can lead to a lot of polarisation.
In America right now, the fastest growing group is called as nuns. Not N-U-N, nun, not those who become, females who become celibate or who renounce the world, but nuns. Nuns are an idea, they say that, that is actually in America, in FIFILA form, there’s one option over there.
Which religion do you belong to? So, nun is an option you have. So, their idea is that you religious people, you have beliefs about the nature of the other world and based on those beliefs, you fight and make things worse in this world. So, I don’t want anything to do with you.
And it’s not an unreasonable position. It is true. There are so many conflicts that happen because of this.
So, now, if somebody is more religious than spiritual, then what happens? Religion becomes solely a designation. And that’s why, for example, it may happen that some people, they can have so much hatred for somebody from some other religion without even knowing that particular person at all. If you belong to the religion, therefore, you need to be hated.
And that can be horrible. So, it becomes, I belong to this religion, I am a good person. You don’t belong to this religion, you are a terrible person.
In the Vedic tradition, if you see, the gunas are behavioural. Bhakti is spiritual. Neither of those is associated with any external marker.
Now, of course, external markers are important, we will talk about that. But they are important to the extent they bring about an internal transformation. They aid in bringing about an internal transformation.
So, when there is, so, when, why am I talking about this changeable, not changeable? Sometimes people, they are religious and not sufficiently spiritual. Then they start seeing also in black and white terms. If you belong to this group, you are a good person.
If you don’t belong to this group, you are a bad person. And not only are you a bad person, you will forever stay bad. There is no hope for you to be redeemed also.
So, generally, there are some group of people who are called as exclusivists. So, exclusivists are, my way is the only way to God. I have exclusive rights to God, to put it this way.
Now, within that, there is a small group of people who are extremists. Now, exclusivists, their domain is in the level of ideas or thoughts. You know, my way is the only way.
If you are not following the way, my way you are going to go to hell. Extremists are actually much kinder. They say, anyway, you are going to go to hell, why delay it? We will help you get there faster.
So, at this level, the idea is people just can’t change. People don’t even deserve an opportunity to change. Now, not many people actually believe this, but sometimes too much religious indoctrination leads to that.
That’s how, this does not have to be religious indoctrination only. It can be any kind of change. Therefore, they have to be killed.
Whatever happens, they have to be, all of them have to be killed. So, now, this is a very dangerous worldview that people can never change. Now, spiritual worldview is that we see the internal disposition.
We understand ultimately, everybody is a part of God, everybody is a soul, and everybody can be saved. Now, I will add a couple of points. See, the word eternal, what does it mean? Eternal, what does it mean? No beginning, no start, no end.
Now, in the Christian tradition, or at least in a major section of Christian tradition, eternal only means no end. It is like eternal does not mean no beginning. Their idea is eternity is not an intrinsic quality of the soul.
It is a very weird idea, and it is not the mainstream idea of, although the term soul is used, but their idea of soul is very different. So, when a man and a woman unite, at that time, a soul is created. That’s why they don’t believe in pre-existence, that there’s a life before that.
And according to, because Christianity has the idea of eternal damnation, you will go to hell forever and you will burn in hell forever. So, some Christian theologians have said that that is actually not true, because eternity is not property of the soul. Eternity is a gift given by the grace of God.
So, their idea is that when you become saved by Jesus, only then you become eternal. Otherwise, their idea is, you know, it’s not that you go to hell and suffer forever. That’s the main idea in Christianity.
But some Christians try to hold that, actually, you will just cease to exist after death. There’ll be no existence at all. But again, the point why I’m talking about this particular thing is that are people changeable? So, yes.
Now, in the Christian tradition, the idea is if you become Christian, if you are saved, then there’s such a change is possible that a non-eternal being can become eternal also. That is the extent to which change is possible. And that’s why it is not all Christian preachers may have this conviction, but they can be sometimes very feverish, very manipulative sometimes in their methods of conversion, because they think that they are actually saving people from hell.
So, now, for us as devotees, there has to be this conviction that people can change. Everybody can change. I can change, others can change.
And even the unlikeliest of candidates, they can change. So, Prabhupada, when he’s going to America, it is with this conviction that people can change. Even in the change that Prabhupada is talking about.
See, when Prabhupada did not use the word conversion, Prabhupada sometimes used the word transformation, purification. If you see Prabhupada’s vocabulary, conversion was very rarely he used it. Transformation, sometimes he used it.
The most common word he used was purification. Liberation, elevation also he used, but purification was the word he used the most. So, the idea is that often conversion is horizontal, like somebody may be a Hindu materialist and that person changes his religion and becomes a Christian materialist.
So, that time there is no real necessary attraction towards God that is happening. So, the conversion can be horizontal or it can be vertical. The vertical conversion, Prabhupada uses the word purification for that.
Our consciousness becomes elevated. So, now, the understanding is that everybody is capable, everybody has the potential for purification. Now, how does this happen? So, first, that is the concept that it can happen.
Second is how can it happen? So, that we will discuss that. Let us sing this song once, these two lines. Who would like to sing? Does anyone have a mic? So, thank you.
Thank you. So, now here, we discussed the principle that people can change, everybody can change. So, now, how do people change? So, here the principle, that if they just understand, if they can get a taste for Krishna, then they can change.
So, this theme of how people can change, I will talk about this over the next course also, if we get time. But broadly speaking, I will talk about one metaphor over here. It is, say, this is the earth.
Now, around the earth, let me see if I can repeat it, around the earth is the gravity pull of the earth. So, now, if an object is here on the earth, it has to come out, the gravity pull will pull it down. So, what applies to the earth? The earth can be compared to sense objects.
And the gravity feel of the earth, the area over which the gravity acts, that is like the lure, the lure is the attractive force of the lure of the sense objects. So, as long as we are in the gravity pull of a particular sense object, we will be pulled down. We can call this as attachment.
The lure, the lure is the attractiveness of the object, that is attachment. Now, there is a big difference between, while this metaphor is valid, but a significant difference, that gravity is more or less a universal principle, that all objects experience gravity. Now, as compared to that, attachment is much more individual.
Now, we could extend that metaphor and say that, you know, we can have cotton and we can have stone. Both can be, a cotton ball can be of a particular size, a stone ball can be or a metal ball can be of the same size. But again, the mass, depending on the mass, the pull will be much more.
So, now, that mass that is there inside us, that mass also determines, greater the mass, the greater is the pull that is felt. So, this mass inside us is the conditionings, the samskaras. So, if somebody has never drunk alcohol and they have no interest in drinking alcohol, they have seen enough people getting into trouble because of alcoholism, then they do not have the conditioning inside.
Even if they pass by a bar, they will not even notice it. So, to the extent the conditionings are there inside a person, to the extent that that person feels the pull. So, now, if the conditionings are not there, there is no pull.
Similarly, attachments are individual. Say, a person may have a TV in their home and somebody is very interested in politics. So, they come home, if the movie is going on, they are not interested in the movie channels.
But there, the gravity pull for them is toward politics. For somebody else, it might be towards sports. For somebody else, it might be towards movies.
For somebody else, it might be towards celebrity gossip, whatever. At the gravity pull can be toward different things. This gravity pull, this pull is individual.
So, when we talk about higher taste, it is like, say, above here is Krishna and then around Krishna is the gravity pull of Krishna. So, here, there is a pull over here which will pull us downwards. Wherever we are, this pull, here there is the gravity pull of Krishna, which will pull us upwards.
So, it is like, in space, if a spacecraft is shot, after it escapes the earth’s gravity pull, it does not consume much fuel. Based on its momentum, it will keep moving onwards. But if it comes in the gravity pull of some other object, say, if it comes in the gravity pull of the moon, then it will start accelerating.
And at that time, fuel may be required to slow it down. Otherwise, it can crash land also. So, the point is that there are different gravity pulls.
And now, when we talk about bhakti or spiritual growth, there are two principles in spiritual growth. There is the push principle and there is a pull principle. Now, this is slightly different from the word gravity pull.
Gravity pull is something pulling us down. But here, push means we need to push ourselves. So, as long as the object is in the earth’s gravity pull, you have to keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing.
But then, if the object comes under the moon’s gravity pull, inside the moon, it will be pulled towards it. So, like that, we have to get out of mayas, we have to push ourselves to get out of the sphere of maya. And once we get into the sphere of Krishna, we will be pulled over there.
That is the push principle and the pull principle. So, you can put it in one way that there is a push principle, there is push and there is pull. So, now we can have no push and no pull.
Now, which is the best position among these four quadrants? Fourth is that we are pushing and that is Krishna is also pulling us. So, that is the best, the best situation to be in. That means now, Jiva Goswami refers to third chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, he says this push principles comes from buddhi.
Krishna says in 343, and this pull principle, he comes from bhakti, but specifically he uses the word priti. In Priti Sandarbha, he talks about this. Bhakti can also be used as emotion, bhakti can also be used as a process.
But priti, the way he explains this, he uses priti as almost the equivalent of prema. He calls it priti sandarbha. So, when we have developed deep love for Krishna, he says that is a stage where a person does not even need buddhi.
The heart is naturally attracted towards Krishna. But till then, buddhi is important. Now, buddhi can work in many different ways.
Buddhi does not necessarily mean a lot of intellectual analysis. I will talk about how buddhi works at different level. It can be other’s buddhi by which some social structures are created, by some cultural standards are created, by which people are protected.
So, it can be individual buddhi, it can be collective buddhi also, by which people are protected, but buddhi is required. So, the push principle is there and the pull principle is there. Now, if we consider, if there is only push, but no pull, what will happen? There will be sooner or later exhaustion.
How long I am having this desire, I want to eat this food, I want to watch this movie, I want to do this activity and I am saying no, no, no, no. But if there is nothing else, nothing higher coming up, then we will get exhausted. Isn’t it? So, now, that is why sometimes people feel that discipline is like repression.
Because it can appear like that if a person does not have anything toward which they are going, nothing attractive for them to go towards. So, now, throughout, if you see, Prabhupada’s focus is, I will come, let me come to Prabhupada’s focus a little later. If you look at the third, the second quadrant, no push, no pull.
Then what is going to happen? Yeah, it is basically like the person is static. Here a person is ecstatic. But, okay, because there is no pull, no push.
Now, that means the person is not being dragged upward. They are not trying to push themselves upward. And now nothing higher is attracting them also.
So, they will stay there, but often from static, they will also get degraded. Because the world, they may not be pushing themselves upward, but there is something which is always pulling them downwards. Isn’t it? So, depending on situations, they may get degraded also.
We will talk, in today’s or tomorrow’s session, we will talk about some stories about, say, Ajamil, what happened to him and how he went down, how he came up, we will discuss that. But the idea is that if there is no push, there is no pull, certainly there is going to be no elevation. Now, if there is only pull and no push, that is, yes, there are two possibilities.
There is that this person is completely transcendental. The person is eka mahabhagat uddhamatigari, they have no pull at all. They have no material pull at all.
They are transcendent. This is, this is called, technically called as jeevanmukti. They are in the body, but they have nothing that binds them to the world.
Iha, yasya, hare, dasya, it is said in the Purana that if somebody is completely devoted to the Lord, then they are jeevanmukta. Now, the other possibility is that, that they can just be complacent. Because what may happen is, the pull may be there and they feel attracted towards Krishna.
But if they become a bit careless, okay, I am attracted to Krishna, I am not attracted to this. So, even if I go into that situation, I will not be tempted. But who knows, that pull may start coming sometimes.
So, they can be careless. So, that is why, even great souls, they do not give up pushing. Satatam kirtayanto ma yatan tasya dhudavata.
They keep endeavouring. Now, sometimes a person may be at such a level, they will never be tempted, it is possible. So, ideally, we would like to be in the fourth quadrant.
So, when Prabhupada is talking about koro nija bhasya, that nija bhasya, one way of understanding it is that Krishna, you pull them towards you. You bring them within your pull. Now, normally speaking, if you look at this, the earth is at one place, the moon is another place and a significant distance in between.
So, one has to go out of the gravity pull of material things and then gradually they will enter into the gravity pull of spiritual things. But there are special places where, if we consider this is the earth and this is the gravity pull of the earth, then Krishna’s manifestation comes very close in this world. And where we are, there itself, we can experience the gravity pull of Krishna.
Yesterday, I talked about the three modes, they can be seen as parallel. That means somebody in Tamoguna can also get an opportunity to experience Krishna. So, Krishna’s mercy means that a person may be, Krishna’s special mercy could mean that a person is very attached, but even in their attached state, they get to experience an upward pull.
This can happen by the potency of a pure devotee. This can happen by the potency of a dham. This can happen by the potency of the ambience created in a temple.
So, Prabhupada says in the Kunti Maharani’s prayers that when people’s minds are always agitated, but the temple should be arranged in such a way that people come to the temple, they should feel peaceful, they should feel attracted towards the Lord. So, to some extent, this attraction can be felt where we are. And then if we are feeling the pull, so one understanding of spiritual growth is that we have to push, push, push till we are free from the material attachments.
And then we will experience the pull of Krishna when we enter into Krishna’s gravity pull. And to some extent, the first six chapters of the Gita where Kanpiyuga is talked about and the last six chapters of the Gita where Jnana is talked about, this model is talked about. At first, come out of the material pull and then you will experience the spiritual pull.
But the second is that even when you are in the material pull, material forces, material attachments are there, there also you can experience the spiritual pull. And when we experience the spiritual pull, that gives an opportunity to rise upwards. That is one reason why association is considered very important.
Many times when people talk about spiritual, they often talk about solitude, like go within, be peaceful, go to a silent place. And that is one of the reasons why often in the West, we are seen as more religious than spiritual. Because our spirituality is not about going within, it is going outside.
Like go to a temple, go to a holy place. So it seems to be like a very external spirituality, wear a particular kind of dress, go to a particular place, go and spin association. Yes, that is important.
But why is it important? It is like we go outside to go inside. Like we go outside to the company of people who are trying to go inside. Prabhupada did not want the bhakti community to become just like a social club, wherein people just hang out and they feel good about hanging out.
That may be also good, at least people are coming in a cultural ambience and hanging out. But that is not really what is ideal. There is one mega church in America, not one, many are there.
This church, inside the church premises, they have got a gambling casino. Inside the church premises, they have a bar. Inside the church premises, they have like a, not just like a small park for children to play, but they have a Disneyland equivalent.
So it is like, you know, inside the church, you can get everything and you can get God all. Now, to what extent should these other things be provided? It depends. Some sattvic things can be provided.
But once Rajasic and Tamasic things can be started getting provided, it can become, people may not come towards God at all. So, where that is always a tension, that when we try to bring Krishna to people. So it is like, so when people may be disturbed, in the Gita Krishna says there are four kinds of people who come to Him.
In Kali Yuga, there is only one kind of, there are four kinds of people who come to Krishna. Those who are distressed, those who are distressed, those who are distressed, those who are distressed. You know, the Jigyasu, nowadays Artharthi people don’t really come to God.
They will go to somebody to ask for a loan. And Jigyasu, there are a few people, but there are so many subjects for Jigyasu and Jnani people are extremely very less, very, very less. They are there, but very less.
So, the point is that when we talk about coming in the association, it is not just that we are going externally to a particular place. We are going externally to a place where that spiritual pull is manifested. Some people say, there was this movie OMG many years ago.
I had written a book based on that movie also. God is everywhere. Why do you need to go to a temple? Yes, God is everywhere, but that is like saying water is everywhere in the form of water vapour.
But if you are thirsty, you cannot just hang out your tongue and satisfy your thirst. Yes, water is everywhere, but is water accessible everywhere for us? We have to go to a place where the water vapour is transformed into water and is available to a tap where we can drink it. Like that God is everywhere, but certain places, his presence is perceivable more.
And going to those places actually helps us come closer to him. So, in many ways, Prabhupada is saying that he wants to give people the higher taste. That means like Krishna bring people, one way of understanding is Krishna bring people within your gravity pull.
And that means we create a devotee by the devotee’s nature, devotee by the project that the devotee creates. We create the places where Krishna’s gravity pull is felt wherever people may be. So, creating this Kauri Nijya Bhashya, this whole thing, this intersection place, that is basically, how do I put it here? This is Kauri Nijya Bhashya, where people are, that is where we want Krishna also to be manifested, so that people will get an opportunity to come towards Krishna.
Are there any questions or comments at this point? Let us take one more verse because we have only two more days and we need to complete by day after tomorrow. So, if it is your desire, it is your will, everybody will be delivered. Sorry, is it? No, not this one, previous one.
It is by your Iccha, I will discuss what this word Iccha means. It is by your arrangement, desire, will, everybody has come under maya. By your arrangement, even the maya can be, everybody can become free from maya.
So, here Prabhupada has that faith people can be transformed, but he, what he is focussing on, Krishna, you can make that arrangement. Who would like to sing this? Anyone else? Is a good singer or you can sing? Comfortably. The sixth one.
Once more? If possible. If you don’t have it, okay. So, here, when we say this happens by Krishna’s will, that now Krishna’s will, the word, sometimes it is difficult to translate Sanskrit concepts or even Bengali concepts into English.
So, Krishna’s will can range over a spectrum. It can refer to Krishna’s intention or it can also refer to Krishna’s permission. So, when something happens, it may be Krishna’s intention, but when something happens, it may not be Krishna’s intention also.
Krishna does not want it to happen, but Krishna allows it to happen. So, it was not Krishna’s intention that Duryodhana reject his peace plan. It was not Krishna’s intention that Duryodhana try to arrest him.
It was Duryodhana’s intention and Krishna allowed it to happen. So, when we say the word, normally we use it in the form of desire, but the word desire here has a broader meaning. It’s more of like not a blade moves without the will of God.
So, but the will is much broader spectrum. It is not that bad people do bad things or even when good people do bad things. It is not that God wants them to do those bad things.
It is they want to do bad things and Krishna allows them to do those things. So, Krishna is the ultimate cause of everything. Krishna is not the immediate cause of everything.
Karva Karana Karanam. Krishna is the cause of all causes. Krishna is not the cause of all effects.
Now, the Vedanta Sutra gives a difference between the two. That when you say, he is the intention, but there is a cause of a particular effect. It is he wanted something to happen.
Now, when we say he is the cause of a cause and that cause leads to some effect. What is the difference over here? That Vedanta Sutra gives the example that when rains occur. Without rains, no vegetation will grow on the earth.
But which vegetation grows where? Which crops grow where? Which thorns grow where? That is not determined by the rains. That is determined by the kind of seeds that are there on the ground. So, without Krishna’s arrangement, without Krishna’s existence, without Krishna’s permission, nothing can happen.
Krishna says, nothing can exist without me. Nothing can happen without me. But at the same time when something happens, sometimes it may be what Krishna wanted it to happen.
But sometimes that person wanted it to happen and that person may have a desire which is non-devotional, which is anti-devotional and Krishna allows it to happen. So, we will talk about Krishna’s will a little more later when we talk about Prabhupada talking about the puppet, dancing as a puppet in the end. But here in terms of our current analysis, if you consider there is the pull that is upwards and then there is a push that is also upwards.
But the difference is the pull is more like coming from above, the push is coming from below. Now, if you consider these two, the difference over here is that both the pull and the push can change. Sometimes we feel a stronger pull towards Krishna.
Sometimes that higher taste comes very much. Sometimes our push is strong. That is, sometimes we feel convinced this is what I meant to do.
And sometimes this push can become weak. Sometimes the pull can also feel weak. And opposite way, there is a pull that is downwards.
The sense objects have a pull which pull us downwards. So, now this downward pull, that can also vary. Sometimes we feel a particular craving very strongly.
Sometimes, okay, not so strong. Sometimes it comes, it takes for some time, it goes. So, now, when we feel that upward pull, when we feel that downward pull, and when we feel that downward pull, at the same time, we also feel I have to push upwards.
Sometimes we feel the downward pull and don’t feel any urge to push upwards, any conviction to push upwards. So, all that can happen inside us. It’s like sometimes we fight and we overcome temptations.
Sometimes we fight and succumb to temptation. Sometimes we succumb to temptation without fighting. And sometimes we fight to get into temptation.
Isn’t it? So, various possibilities are there. Elaborate and explain those possibilities. But what is being said over here is this upward pull or downward pull, all this happens under Krishna’s jurisdiction.
So, nothing happens without Krishna’s knowledge. So, if someday suddenly greed is increasing within us, anger is increasing within us, lust is increasing within us, envy is increasing within us. So, it is not that Krishna does not know it is happening.
Krishna knows it is happening. It is not Krishna’s intention, but does not happen without Krishna’s permission. When maya also attracts us, maya’s pull is away from Krishna.
But maya’s purpose ultimately is also to make us come toward Krishna only. So, when maya is acting, she is not acting independent of Krishna. She is also acting within Krishna’s jurisdiction.
So, both the downward pull that we feel and the upward pull that we feel, both are happening under Krishna’s jurisdiction. That means if people are getting caught in illusion, that downward pull is also working under your jurisdiction. That means those people who experience the upward pull and come out of maya, that is also happening under your jurisdiction.
So, sometimes when we start feeling some wrong desires, some sinful desires, we may start feeling I am such a terrible person. What a terrible person I am? What kind of desires I have? How kind of emotions I have? I am such a terrible person. I am such a fallen person.
Yes, it is good to feel, not I would say, not so much guilty. It is good to feel humble or humbled. But we should not feel in bhakti, we are often unqualified.
We feel I am unqualified and I have this kind of desires. Should I come in the association of devotees? Should I worship the deity? Should I even chant the holy names? So, we are unqualified. Yes, it is possible.
We may be unqualified. Not a question mark. It is true.
But we are never disqualified. We are never disqualified. What that means is that no matter how many sinful desires are there within us, Krishna does not say because this is your conditioning, get out.
You have no place over here. We are never disqualified. Disqualified is more like somebody is not allowed to participate only.
Krishna says that to everybody that what is 9.32 anybody, no matter how sinful they might be, they can also attain the ultimate destination. So, nobody is ever disqualified. So, for everyone that no matter how strong the downward pull might be at a particular time, it may be difficult to resist the downward pull, but the presence of the downward pull is also within plan of Krishna.
Now, that does not necessarily mean we can say, oh, this desire came to me because of Krishna and therefore, I will fall down. That was Krishna’s desire. No, that’s not the point.
The point is that the desire came from our conditioning only. What we had done in the past or what we have exposed ourselves in the present, because of which the desire has come now. But when we are feeling agitated, when we are feeling tempted, sometimes we may even fall.
That does not take us out of Krishna’s plan. So, when we understand this upward pull comes from Krishna, this downward pull also ultimately upward pull comes from Krishna, the downward pull also within the jurisdiction of Krishna. That’s why we don’t have to feel so ashamed or alienated or guilty about what is happening in our inner world that we feel I am disqualified for bhakti.
That should never happen. So, Prabhupada is saying that there is upward pull with Krishna. His mood is that the upward pull will come from you.
But Krishna, you manifest the upward pull to me. We will see the next verse which we will discuss tomorrow. That means that if you desire their elevation, that means if you want them to come out of maya, you can do that.
They will understand my words. They will get the higher day. That means the upward pull will manifest through me.
When the upward pull manifests through me, they will become attracted towards you. So, one time Prabhupada was asked how did you preach so much and thousands and thousands of people, devotees. Prabhupada gave different answer different times.
One time Prabhupada said Krishna is all attractive. I just presented Krishna. He attracted everyone.
So, now that is true. Now Prabhupada’s expertise was how we presented Krishna also. And we also have to be expert to see how we present Krishna.
But the point is Krishna has the capacity to attract everyone. Krishna, when he says all attractive, that does not necessarily mean everyone will be right now attracted to him. The potential to be attracted to them is there within, to attract everyone is there within and the potential to be attracted toward him is also there.
But that attraction has to actually manifest. So, we will continue this theme in tomorrow’s session. We will talk about those two stanzas we will discuss tomorrow.
Let me summarise what we discussed today. Mainly two points. So, can people change? So, two things we discussed the possibility and the process.
So, with respect to the possibility, we need to have faith. When you talk about faith, faith is not just that God exists, it is also that God, faith in God, God exists, God matters and God cares. Now, when we say God cares, what does God care mean? This cares is to, help us and to uplift us.
So, God cares to uplift us. So, there we discussed how when we are trying to share Krishna Bhakti, we need to have faith in Krishna that Krishna can elevate, Krishna can uplift, Krishna can elevate and also Krishna can change people and people can change. Sorry, what happened here? Krishna can change people and people can change.
So, when we say people can change, that is not the same as people will change. So, the difference between these two is what needs to be discussed. So, can is not the same as will.
So, this will, how it happens is, we discussed the processes that there is the pull principle, push principle and there is the pull principle. Push is largely with our buddhi, the pull is through attraction to Krishna, can be called as priti and normally we might say that Krishna is here, Krishna’s gravity pull is here, the world is here, the world’s gravity pull is here. So, the non-devotional spiritual paths, the non-devotional spiritual paths are about what? We have to come out of Maya and then we have to raise ourselves to the spiritual level.
It may be Krishna or it may be Brahman or whatever. This is Krishna, this is Maya. Now, the devotional spiritual path is what? Wherever we are, Krishna can actually come there.
Krishna can manifest where we are and Krishna can pull us up. So, this pull comes from Krishna, this is the upward pull, sorry, the upward pull comes from Krishna and of course, the downward pull also ultimately is under Krishna’s jurisdiction. So, Krishna can make the upward pull very strong and Krishna can elevate and liberate someone.
Krishna can make the lower pull very weak so that the person will no longer feel attracted towards worldly things. Now, what is the role of the living being over there? Can Krishna do this for everyone? Yes, he can. Does Krishna do it for everyone? No, Krishna also looks at our free will.
So, that role of human will and how preachers can crack that human free will, that we will discuss in the next session. We discuss about Krishna’s will. It can refer to intention of Krishna but can also refer to the permission of Krishna.
It is not that everything that happens in Sri Krishna’s will. Now, ideally, we can try to be situated in the fourth quadrant and we learn how to do that and how Prabhupada is going to create facility for doing that in the future Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.
Is there any question or comment? Yes, how would it be? Both. It is based on past. I would say the word nature is a bit complicated because nature can refer to the varna.
Then that is just a functional aspect of it. But nature can also refer to kama, krodha, lobha. That is the nature which is reformable.
So, in general, it’s due to the impressions from the past but it’s also due to the exposure to the present. Like some people, say somebody from India, they go to India. In India, people, nobody knows what is the baseball.
But if somebody is Indian student goes to America and goes to a university where they are big into baseball. That same kid who had no knowledge of baseball may start wildly cheering baseball six months later. They have no internal impressions but the external atmosphere of so much, dhyayato, vishaya and pumsa, by that, attraction may come up.
So, it can be both ways. From inside, we will talk more about how this pull and pull work in later sessions also. But in general, it works both ways.
Sometimes from inside, like how do we get attracted to maya sometimes? One is that we see something and from outside, that perception triggers the desire. Sometimes it is like we see some sweet object. Okay, I want to eat this.
Sometimes the memory just comes up from inside. Then we go to, where can I get this object? And then we eat. So, the Bhagavatam says sometimes the sense objects come toward the senses and sometimes senses go toward the sense objects.
That means the specific attack of temptation can sometimes start from outside or sometimes can start from inside, both ways. Does that answer your question? Your question was different. Okay, any other last question?