QA with Central New Jersey devotees

[Evening program at Edison USA]

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
So when we are trying to share bhakti in today’s world, we find that some of the ways in which it was done in the 1960s, 70s doesn’t work. So we try to do it in a way that works. So some people say that we are watering things down.
How do we know that Shri Prabhupada is actually pleased with what we are doing? I would say three broad things. First is that we have to look at Shri Prabhupada’s own focus. Second is we have to understand our nature and we have to understand the audience’s nature.
So as per Shri Prabhupada’s own focus, Shri Prabhupada emphasised boon distribution a lot. And he emphasised in India, temple construction, especially life membership. You see, even when Shri Prabhupada did things, the way he did things was very different.
In America, it was mostly boon distribution. In India, it was more life member cultivation. Now, Shri Prabhupada in India went to literally hundreds and thousands of people’s houses, took prasad in their houses and made them into life members.
In Shri Prabhupada’s time, it was not that one way he preached. And so Shri Prabhupada himself adapted different strategies at different times. But essentially, we know that famous incident when some boon distributor asked Shri Prabhupada, what pleases you the most? And they were confident that Shri Prabhupada would say boon distribution.
Actually, Shri Prabhupada said, if you love Krishna, that pleases me the most. So, sarva dharman parityajya maamey kamsharanam vraja. What this verse means is that there are various actions, externals, which are important for the sake of growing into bhakti, for the growing of spiritual life.
Their purpose is maamey kamsharanam vraja. Krishna is telling Arjuna that, if a particular religious formulary doesn’t help you to do maamey kamsharanam vraja, then give it up. So, Arjuna is thinking, should I do my Kshatriya duty and fight against the Kauravas or should I do my kula dharma and protect my members of my dynasty? So, Krishna tells Arjuna, give up that dharma, not adharma, give up even that dharma, if it does not allow you to do maamey kamsharanam vraja.
So, same way, we have to see what is inspiring people towards coming closer to Krishna, towards helping them develop love for Krishna. And we have to do that. And if we are trying to do that, and if people are coming closer to Krishna, they are gaining deeper appreciation for Krishna, then we are pleased.
Prabhupada will be pleased. So, Prabhupada did not do one thing, he did many things. And he told us what the most important purpose of it all was.
Now, I’ll come to the third part is the nature of the people today. See, the world is changing very fast. And actually, Prabhupada came at a particular time in American history or in Western history in general, which is very distinctive.
It was a phase of the counterculture, where people were rejecting Western culture and exploring other forms of culture. And it’s a Prabhupada’s presentation of bhakti at that time, just clicked. So now, if we see, the world has changed.
The extent of popularity that was there, interest in India and Indian spirituality and Indian culture, that is not there so much now. In universities today, almost like the number of people who want to learn Chinese languages are 50 times the more the number of people who want to learn Indian languages. The tourists who go to Taiwan is probably like one 30th time of India.
Tourists who go to Taiwan every year is 30 times more than who go to India. So there is just not the interest in India. First of all, there is no interest in exploring Western culture, exploring alternatives to Western culture.
And there is no specific interest in India as such. So the world has changed. And when the world has changed, we have to adopt whatever works to attract people to Krishna.
So, say in the First World War, when the war happened, trench warfare was a standard way to, even for a weaker army to check a stronger army. Because in France and Germany, both of them dug trenches and both their soldiers were in the trenches. And anybody who tried to come out of the trench, they would be shot down.
For months, soldiers just lived in the trenches, slept in the trenches. It was a terrible life for them. But it was a stalemate.
In the Second World War, trench warfare was useless. Because by that time, aircrafts were developed. The trenches would simply become the tombs.
Somebody stayed over there and war. So now, the same warfare, which was very successful at one level, in the First World War, it had to be completely, it had to be abandoned. So somebody may say, we won the war using that strategy at that time.
You have to see, are we winning now? See, faithfulness to Srila Prabhupada means faithfulness to the purpose of Srila Prabhupada. So, the purpose of Srila Prabhupada is to win the war against illusion, to help people come to reality. And if the world has changed, if it calls for a different strategy, it has to be adopted.
So, the world has changed drastically today. And that’s why we may, we not only may need to, we will need to. We need to adapt things accordingly.
So, deshe kaala bhaagavita, as it is said in the Bhagavatam. According to time, place, circumstances, things have to be adjusted. But the essentials, that are not to be changed.
Nobody is going to say that Krishna is not God, impersonal Brahman is the absolute. Nobody is going to say, you are not the soul, you are the body. Nobody is going to say, oh, you shouldn’t chant Hare Krishna.
You can do whatever you want. Do any other form of meditation. No.
There are co-principles which are not going to be changed. But certain adjustments, they have to be done in a way that attracts people towards Krishna. So, the audience has changed, and if we don’t do this, see, faithfulness to the tradition also includes faithfulness to the flexibility of the tradition.
Because the tradition itself has a component of flexibility. I said, Prabhupada’s one example, how he preached in America is very different from the way he preached in India. In America, if you see, when he was living, how many devoted houses he would go for prasad.
Most of his disciples were living in the temple. And the outside people were really not interested. So, Prabhupada would never go to anyone’s house for temple.
And Prabhupada did not do any house programmes in America. Only some college programmes or temple programmes or some other Rath Yatra festivals. In India, Prabhupada’s main outreach was through house programmes.
Some days when Prabhupada would go to 6, 7, 8 houses in one day. And sometimes the devotees wanted to go with him to all programmes, they would get tired. And then eventually they had two batches.
One group would go for first four houses, second group would go for next four houses. So, Prabhupada himself adopted different strategies at different times, different places. So, that’s with respect to the audience.
And third is with respect to our own nature. Shila Prabhupada is very multifaceted. And different devotees would be inspired by different aspects of Shila Prabhupada.
So, some devotees may be inspired by Shila Prabhupada’s extensive emphasis on book distribution. Others may be inspired by temple construction. Others may be inspired by study of sculptures.
See, in general, in the time of Shila Prabhupada, or at least as is depicted in most popular renditions of Prabhupada’s life, there are three definitions of success. How many books were distributed? How many temples were built? And how many devotees were made? These three are important parameters of success. Along with that, Prabhupada himself in the 1975 roundabout says, now it’s time to boil the milk.
So, that means he’s basically saying that instead of just trying to get people inside now, focus on quality also. So, Prabhupada recognised the need for modifying the emphasis over a period of time. Similarly, now there are different devotees may be doing different things.
So, to say that something is watered down is actually a very strong value judgemental statement. Somebody could say that way Prabhupada himself watered down his programme when he started life membership. You know, life members had no commitment to chanting, no commitment to following the four ayurvedic principles.
Only commitment was to give donation. Now, did Prabhupada water down his own programme? No, rather than seeing something as watering down, we see it like a step down. Like some people, if they’re here, they can, like sometimes if you’re going to climb, going to a temple, the steps may be very high.
Some people can just climb the steps and they can just take a big leap and go up. Others can’t do that. Then maybe there is a gradual sliding ramp which takes them up.
So, like that, Prabhupada himself has given us a very radically different level of connection with his movement. That is life membership. So, one definition of connection was initiation.
Where people follow the four regulative principles, chant 16 rounds. But if you consider that to be like one circle, if you consider the life membership, it’s like a very broad circle. And Prabhupada wanted them to be connected.
He wanted those people also to come to the level of becoming devotees. But he was satisfied. At least they become life members.
They are contributing something. They are at some level connected with Krishna. So, rather than seeing something as, you know, this is what Prabhupada wanted and everything else is wrong.
We see outreach more as a set of concentric circles of expanding radii. And at different levels, people get connected with different levels of commitment, different levels of appreciation, different levels of comprehension. And that is actually the overall spirit of the Vedic culture.
You know, if you can’t worship Krishna, worship the devatas. If you can’t worship the personal form, worship the impersonal form. If you can’t worship the devatas, worship the universal form.
If you can’t worship the universal form, at least understand you are not material spiritual. ekatvena pruthaktvena bahudhavishvatomukham Krishna gives a 9.15, various levels at which people can approach him. So, the Vedic culture was broadly that, at whatever level you are, from there you connect with Krishna.
From there you move towards Krishna. So, it’s from your place, at your pace, join the race. So, that’s the mood of Vedic culture.
And Prabhupada also has in his own example shown a remarkable level of flexibility. So, there are literally hundreds of letters in which Prabhupada has told his disciples, use your intelligence. You are a sincere person, use your intelligence.
And some devotee does something creative for serving Krishna. Prabhupada says, because you are so sincere, because you are sincerely trying to serve Krishna, Krishna has given you intelligence from within. yadāmi buddhi-yogam tan yena mām upyānti Prabhupada would quote 10.10 in the Gita.
So, as long as people’s appreciation for Krishna is increasing, then we should know that we are pursuing Prabhupada’s, we are satisfying Śrīla Prabhupāda in our own way. So, our nature will determine to some extent which aspect of Śrīla Prabhupāda’s legacy inspires us. Some people may want to study scripture deeply and share the deeper aspects of scriptural history.
Some people may want to just conduct big programmes and create awareness among people. So, in the Nīlāmṛta, it is described that even in the early days, 1966-65-67, a school was established. So, first a school was established in New York and then they went to San Francisco.
So, the San Francisco group, Mukunda Mahārāja, Mukunda Prabhu at that time, they were all people who wanted to do big things. And they were, in a sense, not so serious about standards. Their focus was more on awareness.
You just get people to do this thing. We know that Prabhupāda did a programme in the Avalon Ballroom, where there were all hippies who were on drugs. And now, when the devotees in New York heard this, New York was a place where Prabhupāda had stayed and devotees, they were, you could say, at that time also, they were a little more conservative.
How can Swamiji go for a programme like this? What are you thinking about? When Prabhupāda heard about the programme, how many people will come, how many people will chant? Prabhupāda was very happy. And he went for that programme. So, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja writes in the Nīlāmṛta that there were clearly two different groups of people.
One was focused more on stricter standards, following oneself very seriously. Others was not so strict about the standards, but they were focused more on reaching out to people. And Prabhupāda appreciated both.
At that time, Swamiji was so inclusive that he accommodated both and encouraged both. So I think that we can always consult some senior devotees who understand us and whose explanation is understandable to us. So both ways, they have to know us and understand what we are doing.
And also when they explain, their explanation should be understandable to us. Otherwise, some devotees are just dismissive. This is wrong.
That is wrong. That is wrong. That doesn’t, consulting them will only discourage us.
But if we have Aṣṭamālas who we understand and who understand us, then we can of course consult them to understand, to check whether we are on the right track. But overall, we all need, we all need to be faithful to the tradition and we need to be faithful to the flexibility of the tradition also. Does that answer your question? Yes.
Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? Same point.
In the time we move to Central India, Central India temple, attracting a lot of people. A lot of people are coming, 300 to 400 people. We have big programmes, you can say 2000, 2000 for the master and things like that.
But I feel that like they come, they have darshan and they go. But there is no like, I feel in Chowpatty or any temple, a lot of people are becoming like, you know, very serious and things like that. I feel that’s not happening so much.
They just come and they go and what sort of effective strategies you can have in place to make sure the people who come, you know, they become part of the, like you said, core people. Okay. So when we have a big temple, then a lot of people come, but not so many people become serious and committed.
So how can we help the people to become committed? I’d say broadly there are three things for people to connect at a deeper level with Krishna. There is education. There is the culture and there is the community or the society.
So basically people, sometimes people come, most of the, I’ve seen the Hindus who come to ISKCON temples, they come because ISKCON looks like a cultural home to them, far away from India. And there are many Indian organisations, Hindu organisations, but not many of them keep all the cultural signs as they are. So because they feel there is kirtan, there is deities, there is prasad, there is mostly traditional dress.
So people are attracted. So they feel a cultural home. People may come because of the cultural aspects.
Some people just come for the social aspect. I get to people, like-minded people, I like to talk with them. I get someone, some sort of community over here.
Some people may come for educational purposes. I want to understand. So now I want to understand the answers to fundamental questions of life.
You see, the way Shri Prabhupada made ISKCON, he very much stressed philosophy. He stressed the educational aspect quite a bit. So as far as the cultural and social aspect is concerned, other movements are also offering that.
Maybe not in the same way, but what would raise us from the, so if you consider cultural, educational, social as the starting points, from there what raises people to the spiritual level is education. They may come for educational purpose, but there are very few who come for that purpose actually. But the education, when we understand intelligently, then we rise from the, the intellectual takes us from the cultural level to the spiritual level.
janma karma ca me divyam evam yo vetti tattvataha In tattvataha, when we truly understand the philosophy, the intelligence, when we understand, then Krishna says that knowledge of his activities and pastimes, the appearance and activities, that will elevate and liberate us. So there has to be some structure for education. So maybe some introductory courses.
So whoever comes to the temple, they are informed that we have these courses, we have this succession Gita course or whatever kind of course we have. These courses, either in the temple or in different parts of the city, wherever people are staying, those courses are vital for helping people to connect at a more committed level. So having introductory courses and training devotees to conduct those introductory courses well, that is a vital part for, it is vital for solidifying the community.
So usually when a new temple is established, at that time a lot of energy goes in establishing the temple and maintaining the temple and then a lot of practical services there. So those services will always be there and they need to be done. And some devotees, some people may just be attracted to services.
Services are also very important and many people like to do services. So through that also we get connected. But some devotees who have that inclination can be trained, can be encouraged and trained and facilitated to conduct courses.
That can substantially solidify the transition, substantially increase the transition of people from just visitors to practitioners. And overall, the culture of keeping track of people who are coming, whatever way it is, either maybe getting email IDs, getting phone numbers, asking them to fill some feedback forms or whatever, that also helps us to connect. And this is the practicalities.
But mainly I feel then if we haven’t connected, we send them some philosophical, some informational material, some philosophical reflection of thoughts, whatever. But education is the primary way I feel people become committed. One is education, the other is service.
So services is mostly already there in a lot of temples, services there. But through education, through service, the personal connections are established. By service, I would say service is more related to the culture.
You know that, OK, you know, maybe wash vessels or serve prasadam or clean the temple or do this, do that. That’s a part of the devotional culture. The connections either through a counselling system, mentoring system or just informally, connections, they are part of the community.
Education is what caters to the philosophy. So whichever way people can get connected, it is good. But some level of education helps people to solidify their connection with Krishna.
Can I ask a question? I wanted to know, like, how do I overcome the pattern of fatality in my behaviour? Like, for example, like conditioned patterns are there. I have heard that, you know, in the introduction there is a certain kind of pattern in the mistakes I do. Sometimes they look like they have disappeared, they might become comfortable, and then they suddenly show up.
So, for example, once I remember, like, when you start getting the, what is pure, and you start understanding what is pure, you start dispelling your emotions. Like that, like, as I start, as I am appreciating this concept more and more, I become angry if somebody talks easily about this. They might be talking about this.
That is one kind of pattern. I can’t even check those kind of thoughts. I am not supposed to become angry.
I am supposed to be, not always, but all the time it helps me. Talks easily about Krishna. Talks cheaply or what do you mean? Not cheaply, like, without understanding.
Like, even close family members, like, you know, without understanding. Now I have reduced, but these kind of, like, lot of such patterns are there. So, I thought that sometimes, you know, they look like they have disappeared.
Are they conscious, these practises? Like, they have gone. But when I stop checking on them, like, when I become comfortable, they suddenly pop up. So, what is the solution? Like, should I be always conscious of them even when they disappear? That’s just an example.
Many such things which can trigger anger. So, if we have certain conditionings which we are trying to overcome, but then they keep popping up again and again. We think we have overcome them, but then after some time, suddenly they come up.
Especially when I think that they have completely gone and I can’t control myself. Yeah, exactly. Especially when we lower our guard, then they pop up again.
So, yeah, I think there are different kinds of conditionings. So, for example, say, somebody might have been eating, drinking tea or eating meat. You know, most of people, once they start practising bhakti, just give it up.
Don’t look back at it. It’s not difficult. See, some of the desires, the process of bhakti, is such a hiatus that they get cleansed away very quickly and they don’t come back at all.
But some others may be there which may keep coming back. So the first thing is by looking at those conditionings which have disappeared, we can gain faith in the process of bhakti. The process of bhakti works.
When we find our conditionings relapsing, we can either lose our faith in the process of bhakti or we can lose faith in our capacity to practise bhakti. But by seeing the things that have changed in our life, we can actually maintain that faith that bhakti works and it works even for me. So now, having this faith from that meditation, we can then evaluate what exactly is happening over here.
Some conditionings may be very deep rooted for some people. So, yes, we do need to prepare. But we have to know that the focus in bhakti should be the war for devotion, not the battle against temptation.
The two are different. Other two are related, but they are different. Sometimes if you focus too much on what we should not be doing, I should not be doing this, I should not be doing this, I should not be doing this.
Then that is not a very encouraging thing to meditate on. It is actually draining. I should not be doing this, I should not be doing this, I should not be doing this.
It is draining. If we focus on what we should be doing, that actually gives a positive focus to us. So when we think that way and so for example when we are interacting with others with whom we tend to say get irritated then if you focus in that relationship what should I be doing? Maybe I can try to be, how can I serve this person? What is it that they will appreciate right now? See one thing is that there is a time for speaking and there is a time for not speaking.
We don’t have to think that every situation is a moment for philosophical education. There are, it depends on people’s nature. Some people are philosophically minded and just within 30 seconds you can have a, you can connect deeply and start having a deep philosophical discussion.
For other people as soon as you start discussing philosophy they start looking here and there. What is going on? They just start thinking that we are just showing off our knowledge or whatever. They’re not, for them philosophy is not what they’re comfortable with.
So there is a time for correction, there’s a time for just leaving things as they are. It is not that every misconception that anyone has, assuming that they actually have misconception and our understanding is correct, even assuming that, you don’t have to necessarily correct it immediately. There is an appropriate forum for correcting it, appropriate time for correcting it and our focus should be that when we are relating with others people should be comfortable.
So how can I contribute in this discussion? How can I serve in this discussion? So that people feel more comfortable, people feel more at home. So when philosophy is our home territory and philosophy is not the home territory of somebody else, then it becomes somewhat of a mismatch. So if we understand what people’s interests are and try to keep the discussion in their interests, then we can avoid this tendency.
So rather than thinking what I should not do, we can think about what I should do. Okay, what does this, within the circle of Bhakti, what does this devotee like to discuss? What is it that whenever I meet this devotee, what can I talk about? We try to find it that way, our focus will be on what I should be doing, not what I should not be doing. And then we will also understand that devotee better, and to connect with them better.
And sometimes if we don’t even understand, we can ask them directly also or indirectly, what is it that interests you? And that way we learn and we keep the discussion in that area. And in appropriate forums, in appropriate, not inappropriate, in the appropriate forums or on the appropriate occasions, we can talk about the philosophical issue and have it addressed. There are many cases when Prabhupada actually did not correct even his disciples.
There are, I think in that 7th volume of the Dilamrit is a discussion when the devotees actually one day, the young devotees, they had gone to Vrindavan and then they came back and they made, they saw the Rashtrila being enacted in Vrindavan, and they came and enacted Rashtrila. And they made one of them devotees into Krishna, another devotee into Radha and everybody was offering obeisances and doing Aarti to them. And Prabhupada was also very peaceful.
It was evening, in the garden they had a drama. Prabhupada attended that. Prabhupada did not speak anything at that time.
The next morning in the Bhagavatam class, Prabhupada talked about sahajiyas and he said we should not be sahajiyas and we should not do this. So actually at that time when the devotees, they had actually sincerely worked hard to please Prabhupada. If Prabhupada said that this is sahajiyaism, it really demoralised them.
So if a spiritual master can choose when to act, then what to speak of us when we are mostly with our people who are equals or just a little younger to us or little senior to us. We have to be very careful. So that way by focussing on what we should be doing rather than what we should not be doing, we can create a more positive focus.
And if this conditioning relapses, then we don’t have to worry too much about it. Because they are like spikes. They will come, they will go.
They will come, they will go. If we observe ourselves more… No, don’t pay too much. Because what happens is, we may try to… No, when it comes, the important thing is to not obsess over it.
Because what happens after it comes and we did something wrong, why did I do that? Why did I do that? Why did I do that? And what is happening by that? Actually, we are not conscious of Krishna. The same mind first made us do it, do it, do it. And the same mind now, so first the mind makes us a criminal and then the mind becomes a judge who punishes the criminal.
Do it, do it, do it. Why did you do it? Don’t you ever learn? What a fool you are! In both cases, we are simply mind conscious. We are not Krishna conscious.
So, okay, that spike, that sudden, that conditioning shot up, made me do something which was not so good. But after that, let me focus on Krishna. Let me focus on constructively connecting with Krishna.
And by that, over a period of time, I’ll find that I’ll become stronger, I’ll become purer. And next time when the spike comes, I’ll be able to deal with it. So, it is more the focus on the overall connection with Krishna that will help us to deal with the specific anartha, rather than just obsessing over that anartha.
Now, when we are relatively calm, at that time we can also observe the patterns. So, when is it that this particular anartha pops up? Is it in particular circumstances? So, then we can anticipate that. Just like say, in India, suppose you are travelling in a car, sometimes there are potholes in the road.
So, if I know there are potholes, then in advance only I plan, okay, I’ll take the car like this, or I’ll slow down over there. So, like that, if not at the moment after the relapse has happened, but afterwards, when we are relatively calm, after practising some bhakti, connecting with Krishna, when we are in sattva guna, then we can observe, okay, in what circumstances does this happen? And that is like noticing, okay, this is a pothole is over here, and we can avoid that. Any other questions? Yeah.
Yeah. So, when new people see that there are some, there is some groupism within our movement, when we are in same area, there are different groups, then how do we explain to them? Actually, in today’s world, it is almost impossible to hide our dirty linen. The internet is there, if people want to find out controversy, they can easily find out controversies.
So, if somebody knows some things, there’s no need to deny that. We don’t have to highlight it ourselves, but we don’t have to deny it. We just, in an intelligent way, we just tell that, you know, Krishna is an all-attractive God.
And Krishna can inspire different people to serve in different ways. So, within the process of bhakti also, there are different people with different inspirations, different kinds of understanding, and they are practising differently. So, rather than demonising someone else or criticising someone else, you say that, yes, Krishna attracts different people in different ways.
And this is what we are presenting. When we ask about them, we don’t have to, in the initial encounter, we can tell, yes, that’s also a place where Krishna Bhakti is happening. This is what we are providing.
So, rather than negating them, we can focus on emphasising what we are providing. And as far as differences are concerned, we can actually say that this is just because we are all individuals. Krishna is a commodity in God.
So, there are different people who serve in different ways. Specifically, if someone is following something which is objectionable, then we may have to tell them, getting into their nitty-gritties. But it all depends on how we present things.
See, sometimes we make, via our presentation, we make something unimportant to important. There, should never go over there. These are terrible people, this like that, this like that.
We emphasise that so much, then they start thinking, what is this over here? If we just actually make it very nonchalant. Yes, there are different people, different inspirations. They’re all serving Krishna.
This is what we are offering. A lot often, questions arise based on our own mode of presentation. So, what we emphasise or how we speak some things, that triggers people’s questions.
So, it is best to acknowledge that there are differences and say that it is not that it is unexpected. It is understood there will be differences. And we focus on what we are offering.
That way we can basically acknowledge and downplay. No need to highlight the differences. If somebody needs it, then maybe on a one-to-one basis, when they are sufficiently connected, we can explain things to them.
But in general, most people are not very philosophical. So, people do not get into so much into philosophical technicalities, what is right, what is wrong. They are interested in seeing a human connection.
So, if you offer them that, then they get connected. And over a period of time, depending on what their need is, we can clarify issues further. But broadly, it is like Krishna’s movement is very big.
And we are inspired by our connections. Somewhere something else may happen, which you hear about it, we feel very discouraged. Why is this happening like this? Somewhere else something may happen, that may also shock us.
But if we consider from our practical point of view, it is the experiences of Krishna consciousness that we have had, in the connections with devotees that we have here. It is the opportunities for service that we get. It is the philosophical insight that we get.
See, whatever has inspired in our bhakti, that to us is the evidence that the process of bhakti works. And irrespective of the divisions, irrespective of the controversies, at an individual level, those who practise bhakti, for them bhakti works. And if we focus on that, sharing our individual conviction, our individual realisation, yes, there are many things happening in many worlds, but this is the process which we are following, and it works for us.
So, instead of focussing on the institution so much, we focus on the wisdom and the process. And the wisdom and the process are accessible for everyone. And those who follow the wisdom, those who understand the wisdom, follow the process, they will get benefited, they will be elevated, they will be transformed.
And yes, in the institution, there may be some who may not be following the wisdom, understanding the wisdom properly, or may not be following the process properly. It’s just the nature of a big institution. We don’t highlight that too much.
So, rather than stressing the point that they have to join an institution, we focus on the point that there is wisdom, there is process. Understand that, see if it helps you. That way, if we, as I said, place our cards on the table, you know, we are not hiding or denying something, but we don’t have to highlight it also.
Because for us, on our practical spiritual life, how much do the various controversies that are going on in this world, how much do they matter for us? Only if we are an administrative body where we have to legislate them, then they matter. Otherwise, they don’t matter for us. So, why should we make them matter for others? So, if they have those questions, address them in a nonchalant way, not make it too highlighted.
And gradually, whatever works for us, that appropriately adapted can work for them also. So, do we have any courses or material for children? Actually, if you see, our movement is not very old. It’s only 50 years now.
So, these sort of things will develop gradually. And as of now, there are some devotees who have made some things. There is, Urmila Mataji has made a series of books, which are for, especially for learning English and learning various languages.
There is the Pune Temple, which has made a book for getting to, series of books for getting to know Krishna. Substantial level, multi-level. And if we similarly search, there is no ISKCON approved standard pattern.
And I doubt that will ever come. Because that way, even for introductory course, there is no ISKCON wide approved standard introductory course. Some people may have a six session course, some people may have a seven session course, and they may call it this much, they call it that.
And it will vary, the content will also vary. So, I would say that we don’t have to wait for a standard material to come. But there are resources available within the devotee community also, if you just explore a little bit.
And I feel one, that’s a one major service, which somebody has to take up, you know, all the resources that for children are there, pool them all together and put them on one website or something like that. Krishna Kids or whatever, there’s some website like that. But there are things available, not as extensively as say in other organisations, which have been there for a much longer time.
We consider this 50 years is just in our second generation. And we are learning, but still a good number of materials have been developed. And they will be developed.
Yes, but it is required definitely. Thank you. Any other questions? Yes, please.
Yeah, anyone else? Yeah, you had a lot of questions. Okay, good question. Yeah.
So, Lord Ram minimised the distress of everyone when he was exiled. So, is minimising the stress like pushing the problem under the carpet, sometimes issues have to be addressed? No. When I talk about minimising the stress, let me give you a medical metaphor to illustrate this.
Say if a patient is in pain, and the doctor becomes horrified. Doctor says you have got cancer, you want to die in one month. Now, if it’s serious, the doctor has to tell that.
The doctor also has to tell it in a way that doesn’t crush the spirit of the patient. And if the disease is curable, but it is serious, the doctor has to communicate the gravity of the disease. At the same time, the doctor also has to encourage the patient.
So, pushing the problem under the carpet means is denying that there is a disease. But being a distressed maximiser means that, you know, increasing the panic of the patient. So, the patient, we have to communicate to the patient that the problem is serious, but you have to communicate in such a way that the patient doesn’t feel hopeless.
The patient feels hopeful. So, when we talk about in practical real life, minimising the distress, that means that say, somebody comes and complains, you know, oh, this person did like that to me. Yes, we have to understand.
Yes, I understand that you are feeling distressed. The same time, if I say like that only, you know, it’s all people, people are just rotten. If you say, then what will happen is, you know, how are we going to get a solution? We understand their pain.
It’s not that we deny their pain. But at the same time, see, when Ram was telling Kaushalya that, you know, Ram did not tell Kaushalya, you know, you should not feel pain. He was simply, what he was trying to do is don’t feel angry towards Dashrath.
He was not telling Lakshman that you should not feel pain. He said, don’t feel angry towards Lakshman. Dashrath is not doing it because of infatuation.
He is also obliged. He is doing it reluctantly. So, minimising others’ distress means that we respond in a way that helps to solve the problem or helps to at least not aggravate the problem.
So, try to, if we can understand someone else’s perspective, help them to see from their perspective so that the feeling that there is a victim-victimiser relationship, this person is so bad and I am a victim, that feeling can be minimised. So, it is not that we deny the problem. It is not that we push the problem down the carpet.
There was once a senior leader in our movement who fell away. Sathru Maharaj writes in his Life with the Perfect Master book that he was a very prominent leader at that time and many in the devotee community were disturbed by that. Sathru Maharaj said, I am also disturbed.
And then I was thinking, how could he have done that? He used to give such classes and he could do this. How could he do that? And when he went to Prabhupada and Prabhupada heard it, he was very grateful. He says, the illusory energy is so powerful.
So, Prabhupada took the focus away from the person to the principal, rather than thinking, how could he have done like this? Prabhupada said, the illusory energy is very powerful. We all have to be cautious. So, that way, he said that instead of seeing that as just a personal to personal issue, it is all I know.
And the same maya is there. We have to protect ourselves from maya. The tactical process of bhakti, whatever it is, whatever aspect is required at that point.
But that way, basically, when we say minimise the distress means that we don’t function at the same level of consciousness, a level that they are, and aggravate. We actually help them to see from a higher perspective. So, somebody’s rajo guna, tamo guna, we also descend into rajo guna and tamo guna, then we make problems worse.
By sattva guna, we understand them, but we also help them understand what is happening. That’s how we can maturely deal with the problem. Does that address your question? Thank you.
Yeah, right. Yeah, you had a question? Yeah. People eat a lot of meat.
And then how do we get them to come? Because either they come, few serious people come, or most don’t come. Yeah, actually, it’s just, I would say that sattva guna, rajo guna, tamo guna is always there. And Vedic culture had processes for elevating everyone.
So, not everyone will come to sattva guna immediately. Just like Kali worship was there, people can on Amavasya offer meat, and eat meat, eat, offer a goat’s meat and eat meat. So, like that, there are facilities for people in tamo guna also to be elevated.
So, in general, Sri Prabhupada’s presentation of Krishna consciousness is, requires sattva guna. Not necessarily as a starting point, but very soon people have to be ready to come to sattva guna. Some people are just not ready.
So, we can just, rather than, rather than creating too much of a conflict with them, you know, trying to make them feel bad for not doing something, they’re just, they’re just going to go away. If we find that they’re not ready to give it up, just end the interaction on a positive note, and give them some prasad, encourage them to come to the temple and leave it at that. There are even in today’s world people who are in sattva guna, or people who appreciate sattva guna.
And see, even if they are right now in rajo guna, tamo guna, if they have appreciation for sattva guna, the process of bhakti is so powerful that it can bring people to a mode of goodness also. So, there will be enough people, see, if in the western world, where eating meat is so common, there also people are taking it up, slowly, but people are taking it up. So, even in India also it’s possible.
In some places it will be more difficult, some places it will be less difficult. But there are people who are in mode of goodness, or are interested in the mode of goodness lifestyle, and there are many people who are not. So, we just, rather than demonising those people, or making them feel guilty or bad, just leave them over there, and they will grow at their pace.
Give them some prasad, give them, let them end the interaction in a way that they have some favourable impression of Krishna consciousness. I am a very nice person. I can’t do what they are doing, but they are nice people.
I feel like that itself will help them to grow, either in this life or in the future life. And we can focus on people who are ready to come to the mode of goodness. Does this answer your question? So, if people don’t take to Krishna consciousness, they go to other religions sometimes, which say that you can eat, which say that you can eat anything.
Yeah, that is a challenge. See, there are, there can be religion, which is a means to spiritual growth, and there can be religion, which is simply a social ornament, or a social covering. So, there are people who convert from one religion to another.
They were Hindu materialists, they became Christian materialists. So, from the spiritual perspective, there is very little difference. Now, what we are looking for is change people from materialist to become spiritualists.
So, the people who will do that will not be many. And if people are converted, then in a sense, it’s not a problem because their level of consciousness is staying the same. They are simply, they were materialists and they are materialists now also.
Now, simply they have got a religious rationalisation for their materialism. But the real problem is that many times when they convert, they become hostile to Vedic culture. And then it becomes a problem.
So, in general, the whole Vedic culture was such that it accommodated people at different levels. Sometimes people may not become devotees, but they just can practise bhakti at whatever level they are at. So, yeah, people may not be able to offer food every day and take prasadam, but at least they can fast on Ekadashi.
We have to find out where people are and if they can’t take the leap to bhakti, we offer them one step up, one step up. So, these are practical strategies which leaders at each place will have to understand and will have to implement. So, in America, yoga is very big.
So, we present yoga, especially in the Western outreach. And through yoga, people become connected. That is basically what we are doing.
We are giving them one step forward. From there to come up, it will take time. But at least they have taken one step up.
So, like that, people will take steps gradually. So, we may need some intermediate steps for people to rise from where they are to one step higher. We can take one question here.
Okay. So, the caste system or varnashram in which there are four varnas, often Western people see that as discriminatory and exploitative. So, how can we explain that? So, you see there are two things.
Yeah, based on how they are ranked and how is it not discriminatory. First thing is that the caste system that is there in India today it is very discriminatory. You just have to begin by acknowledging that.
It is very discriminatory and many of the people in the lower caste have been exploited, misused, denied privileges, even necessities. The caste system as it exists in India now is a great evil and it needs to be corrected. And then if we present Krishna Consciousness as a correction to that, that actually in Krishna Consciousness we are presenting the bhakti wisdom which focusses on transcendence.
So, everybody can approach transcendence. So, that is the first point. But even if we talk about specifically the caste system, I have a whole PowerPoint presentation on the caste system, but I will focus on two, three points which are over here.
First is that actually discrimination is just a nature of the human ego. Whoever is in power, they discriminate against those who do not have power. America champions itself as a land of equality.
But when the original pilgrims came from Europe to India, what did they do to the caste system? In India, the lower castes are still existing, existing a large number. So, the discrimination had been so bad. In America, discrimination was much, much worse.
So, actually the Protestants came to North America, the Catholics went to South America. And if you see the Mayan civilisation that was there, the Catholics, Spain and Portugal, Spain primarily just eliminated everything, destroyed it. So, even in USSR, which was supposed to be like the land of equality, everybody is equal, communism, that was the idea.
And everybody should have equal rights or equal property or whatever. What happened over there? Within USSR and China, three times more people were killed by the government itself. Then where the number of people who were killed in World War I and World War II combined together.
In order to establish equality, the government s version of equality, what happened was that anybody who was perceived as a threat was just eliminated. So, discrimination, exploitation, these are just facts of human nature. They are regrettable, sometimes reprehensible facts, but it is facts of human nature.
And they may acquire different rationalisations at different times. So, yes, in the Indian history, this tendency to discriminate and exploit that has rationalised itself through the caste system. But objective historical record can show that actually things were not as bad in India as and things were much worse in other countries.
This is not to say that what happened in India was good. Admitting it is bad, but there is no need to demonise India and India s caste system, single it out, because that is a universal human pattern. Now, as far as the original intent was concerned, the original intent was not discrimination, but cooperation.
The whole idea is that any form of demarcation, it involves separation, it also involves union. Say, for example, one state in India, some states are divided, say Uttar Pradesh was divided into two states. And when there is a division, it can lead to separation of two groups, but it can also bring a group together closer.
So, actually, traditionally, the caste functioned in the role of a greater family, where people within one caste, they were in similar professions, similar inclinations, they all came together. So, it created a greater sense of belonging to a unit bigger than one s own family. And that is how it sustained social fabric.
You see, the caste system was bad. But if you consider a few countries in the world have been as invaded by foreigners as India has been. And despite it all, if you consider among all the civilisations in the world, the only living ancient civilisation is the Indian civilisation.
The only. I mean, China is still existing, but China is only existing as a political entity. Much of Chinese civilisation, like Confucianism, Taoism and all that, that is only in the history books.
So, Chinese culture itself is not existing as it existed in the past. As a political entity, it is existing. So, the only living Egyptian civilisation is not there, the supporting civilisation is not there.
So, if the Indian culture had supported a discriminatory caste system, then why is it that there is no internal rebellion? And why was it survived in spite of so much external aggression also? Certainly, there has been reform from within against this. But it could not have been entirely all bad. It could not have survived for so long.
So, the original purpose was cooperation, that belonging to a greater family among people who have similar vocations. Now, the caste system was by qualities, but it was also by birth. That means what? That it was Guna Karma Vibhashya Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita.
But also, Krishna talks about certain classes of people as Papayonaya. That means he says, right from birth itself, these can be of sinful wounds. That means from birth itself, somebody can be sinful.
Now, what he means by that is that the problem is not to, if somebody is born in a doctor’s family, that person has much more facility to become a doctor. Now, it’s not that they will, the problem is when birth itself is assumed as a qualification, not just the qualification, the complete qualification. But birth, even from the point of view of upbringing, it affects the possibility of somebody taking up a particular vocation.
If somebody is born in a doctor’s family, they want to become a doctor. Since childhood, they have that atmosphere. They learn what a doctor’s life is like.
And on top of that, if you consider further that, you consider the philosophical understanding, say a soul who has a brahminical inclination, that soul, by the arrangement of the law of karma, would take birth in a family of brahmanas. So, the possibility of brahmanas begetting brahmanas is more. The problem was, so to say that the caste system was never by birth, that is also not entirely correct.
The caste system was, the problem is to say that caste system was only by birth. Traditionally, genealogy and psychology matched by the law of karma. So, based on the kind of psychology a person has, they will be born in that kind of family.
But over time that things changed. The important thing is that today it is discriminatory. And within the bhakti tradition, we have some of the greatest saints who were from the lower caste, who were outcast, they are still considered exalted.
So, we see the bhakti tradition as a inner reform. Now, today people are criticising from outside, this is so bad, this is so bad. But the bhakti tradition was like an inner reform.
We see all the bhakti saints, whichever state of India you go to, there are states, there are stories of bhakti saints who were from lower caste, they were persecuted by the brahmanas. But there are some miraculous interventions. And then their glory was established and then the whole of society accepted it.
The whole bhakti movement was an internal reform. So, there are problems with it. The original intent was cooperation.
Historically, there have been problems. That’s simply because of the human tendency to exploit. And there have been internal attempts also to reform.
And we show that what we are is a part of the internal attempt at reform. And when we explain things that way, then we see that we can actually explain things in a way that is intelligible to people. Does that answer your question? So, thank you very much.
Shri Prabhupada, the key? So, when suicide is bad, why did Arjuna take a vow that he would commit suicide if he was not able to kill Jayadrath? See, the Kshatriya culture is a culture of honour and heroism. That means, honour means, this is what I commit to do and I will do it. Like Dashrath Maharaj.
No, for him to send his son Ram to the forest was terrible. It is worse than death. But what happens, Kshatriyas, they are trained that if you make a word, you have to honour it.
And that sense of honour is the means by which they are protected from abusing their power. They are kings, they can do whatever they want. Who is going to question them? Who is going to stop them? They are so powerful.
But if the Kshatriyas are trained right from the childhood, you have to honour your word. And that way, if they may give honour, although they may be tempted to use their power in a bad way to exploit others, they will not do that because that is not the honourable thing to do. So, the sense of honour in Kshatriyas is very important.
And the sense of honour brings out the best within them. So, even when the best thing is difficult to do, it brings out the best. So, like that, when Arjuna is thinking, wow, that I will kill Jaya Dharam, otherwise I will enter into fire.
The focus of that is not that he wants to commit suicide. See, suicide, when we understand it today, it is the way it is done today. It is simply that people are frustrated with their life, frustrated with problems in their life, and they feel that this problem has no solution and therefore, I will commit suicide, I will end my life.
So, it is more a frustrated response to inability to deal with problems of life. Whereas in the Kshatriyas case, they are in a war field and death can come at any moment. So, they already by entering into war itself, they are ready to die at any moment.
So, it is not that they are fearful of the problems of life, the situation is very different. The point is, when they are taking a vow, it is within the course of the war, an enemy’s arrow may kill them at any moment. But they take a vow that I will do this.
And if I don’t do this, I will die. I will end my life. So, that ending that vow, the focus of the vow is not ending one’s life.
The focus of that vow is I will do this no matter what it takes. And as far as the ending of life is concerned, that can happen any day on a war field. So, the focus is on stating that, I will do this, I will make sure that I can do it.
So, that sort of Kshatriyastic vows like that, that brings out the best within them. So, in all such statements, whenever it is there, we have to know what is the focus. So, okay, I will give one example.
I don’t know whether I can explain it in a way in which you will understand it. There is a verse in the, in the Purana which says that, Lord Vishnu tells the devotees, tells his devotees, tells Dharadvini actually, naaham vasami vaikunthe yoginam hrudayeshuva, yatra gayanti mad-bhakta tattva-tishthami narvai. He says, actually, I don’t reside in Vaikuntha.
I don’t reside in the spiritual world. I don’t reside in the yogi’s hearts. I don’t stay in all these places.
I stay where my devotees chant my glories. Now, the emphasis of the statement is what? The focus is what? That where devotees are chanting Krishna’s glories, that’s where we can, we can perceive Krishna’s presence. Krishna is in the spiritual world.
But how can we perceive his presence there? We can’t. But when devotees chant and we feel spiritual inspiration, we feel Krishna’s presence. So, now when Krishna is saying, I am not present in Vaikuntha, it does not mean it’s like in Vaikuntha there is a throne and the throne is empty.
Krishna has left. So, every statement has a focus. And I am making myself clear.
So, the focus of the statement is not that Arjuna is going to commit suicide. The focus is that Arjuna is going to do everything possible to make sure that he is Jaipat. So, all statements have a focus.
And when we see that focus, then we can understand the statement properly. Did that answer your question? Thank you for your intelligent question. Hare Krishna.
We would like to thank you also, especially our appreciation towards you. I can trust you a lot from the time you started Shastri Shastri. We are all personally benefiting a lot.
We are very grateful for all your wonderful lectures. You can put so much effort to make them so that we can understand. Every sentence you taught me was useful.
Thank you. I’ll be to your service. Hare Krishna.