Reductionism and Pantheism refuted

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
I’m sorry to disappoint all of you all of you have come to hear the Bhaktivikasamayi Maharaj it’s always an unenviable position to try to substitute for a more illustrious speaker so I seek the blessings of all of you so that I can try to speak something worthwhile for the glorification of the lord and the purification of my own filthy heart so we’ll discuss two main themes two misconceptions we will address in this class one based on the purport and one based on the conception of the universal form so the first misconception is that there is only material that exists and there is nothing spiritual that is the scientific misconception and the second misconception is that matter has nothing to do with spirit which is the semitic or the semitic misconception of the western religions especially christianity in islam so let’s go over this one by Srila Prabhupada in the purport explains that matter in itself does not grow it grows by the presence of spirit in modern science there is a great emphasis on study of matter and there is a historical reason for that science achieved its greatest successes in the study of matter now when there were these Galileo, Copernicus, Newton all of them they studied physics now physics is the study of the structure of matter and they made remarkable strides in that by which they made the laws of mechanics and now we have mechanical engineering automobiles aeroplanes so subsequently by the application of those principles discovered in physics to not only the structure of matter but to the interactions of matter which is chemistry they achieved further successes in combining matters in separating matters creating new chemicals and synthetic compounds so the study of matter helped man to get control over material world and even transform material world for apparently the better so subsequently most scientists adopted the approach derived from physics and chemistry to even study biology biology bio is life logos is study study of life so now if you go to a doctor a doctor’s medical medical doctor’s ideas a lot of doctors idea is any problem in the body it’s mainly a problem of either anatomy or physiology the structure of the body is wrong or something of the chemical composition of the body is wrong which may be partially correct but even if we have a completely structure and structurally and physiologically correct body it may be dead that doesn’t create life so modern society has an idea that biology is nothing but applied physics and chemistry so Prabhupada talks in this purport of a fundamental difference why biology cannot be applied physics and chemistry because you know if i break this stand it will break it will crack but if somebody cuts my hand there is a may be a crack also but then over time it will heal this will not heal so matter undergoes only three transformations first is creation second is deterioration and third is destruction so we create a house yeah it takes a long time to create it and we leave it as it is it will get deteriorated and eventually it will be destroyed on the other hand living matter actually matter is a oxymoron oxymoron means a contradictory one it’s like if he’s a chaste prostitute that’s a oxymoron so like that living matter matter cannot be so so living matter means not exact the matter is never living but so matter through which life is manifesting undergoes not three changes but six changes there’s creation then there is growth you know small infant grows you know sometimes science fiction movies show that there is a robot and they may show a he robot and a she robot and they have a baby robot the baby robot is not going to grow they have to create a separate baby robot which will stay as it is so when there is life manifesting through matter then as i explained it maintains itself and will attempt actively to maintain itself and not only that it reproduces no matter even in some instances computers may be more intelligent than human beings also but computers don’t reproduce and you know sex is one of the biggest problems for the theory of evolution why because if we look at nature practically speaking sex is a very dangerous activity you know just like we have the story of the rishi who took the form of a deer and a she-deer to unite and some hunter came and shot so actually sex is an activity which blinds the person to everything else and absorbs it and actually in nature when there is so much struggle for existence so sex can be very dangerous when somebody is having bodily interaction and some predator comes and attacks and eats both the mate and the both the mates so now there are organisms which reproduce asexually also but that asexual reproduction is much more efficient much more safe than sexual reproduction so science doesn’t know why evolution should have preserved sex at all sex is very dangerous and that which is dangerous that is detrimental should be eliminated by evolution so they don’t have any understanding so the philosophical understanding is that the soul who wants to imitate krishna by controlling that soul is by controlling and enjoying another form that soul is given the facility for sex and somebody who does some souls who do very very sinful activities in the name of satisfying their lusty propensities they are put in bodies where they are deprived even of the lusty propensity so that is the form in which there is asexual reproduction but our point here is that actually reproduction is something which never happens in matter so these three changes growth maintenance and reproduction which are not present in material objects they itself show that the principles of physics and chemistry cannot be applied to biology to some extent they be applied partially which is fine but they cannot explain the behaviour of matter as it is exhibited in living organisms so therefore actually speaking the modern scientific understanding may be useful in manipulating matter but it can become dreadful if it used to try to understand living systems so we have so many chaotic situations where the embryo is sometimes considered to be just a lump of flesh but the lump of flesh is growing it is not just simple sometimes we say people want to do abortion now suppose somebody has you know somebody has got some extra growth some tumorous growth or something like that and you come and cut it off and all the relatives will come and the person who has done the surgery you know the doctors did like this and i felt so much pain and then they did this and then they did this people talk about their surgery so much and but if somebody does abortion nobody talks about it why it’s not just because of the sense of shame that is associated because when if there is a tumour that’s an extra growth which is going to be cut off and the tumour is something which is harmful but the embryo is actually having life and it is going to have a full life ahead of it so when we apply just the understanding of biology to sorry understanding physics and chemistry to biology then we can have today we can call tissues you know we can call living beings as tissues when hitler was ruling germany he felt that you know all people who are physically deficient in any way they’re blind they’re deaf they’re physically handicapped whatever way they are you know they are weak and nature is going to eliminate them in the struggle for existence so we will help nature on the way so they had actually organised houses where they would eliminate these people so it is organised hospitals the doctors would do that so the point is you know the value of human life is lost not just human life any life is lost if we apply the principles of physics and chemistry blindly to biology so there is something higher something deeper and that is the consciousness which comes from the soul baldev vidyabhushan in the govinda bhashya explains that actually there is a relationship of achintya bhedabhed between chetan and chetana the soul is the entity and consciousness is the energy so the consciousness and the soul they are same and at the same time they are different because without soul there is no consciousness therefore in that sense they are same but the soul is present in the vision of the heart whereas the consciousness is spread all over the body so in that sense the soul and consciousness are different achintya bhedabhed relationship is there between chetan and chetana soul and consciousness so that’s why shloka rupa would be very heavy in propagating this that life does not come from matter and yes physics and chemistry may be useful in their own ways but they cannot be applied to life living systems that’s the first part so this is the idea that the materialistic people the atheistic materialists they have the idea that matter is all that exists and then nothing else exists but obviously it’s not true because certain matter behaves in ways which other matter does not and at a material level we cannot explain it but the other extreme is to say that there is a spiritual realm but that spiritual realm has no connection with matter so that is the idea of the Western religions Christianity Islam Judaism their idea is that God is transcendental and he’s not at all material he’s not at all present in the material and and the kind of descriptions that are there in the bhagavata now what is going on Vishwaroop this is used by these religionists to accuse the followers of Vedic religion that you people are pantheists, pantheists means you worship everything as God, pan means all, theism means God, everything is God you worship stone as God, you worship rock as God, you worship trees as God, you worship and recently I wrote an article on spiritual scientists, people worship cars also as if they’re God, no we don’t worship cars as if they’re God it’s actually you see the Vedic understanding is very very profound you know in the West when people came from the West to India they had the Western simplistic categories so either you are monotheist you believe in only one God or you are polytheist, you believe in many God so there are only two alternatives that you believe in one God or you believe in many Gods so we people, we Muslims Christians we are monotheists and the Greeks who were there earlier they were all polytheists and the Hindus are also polytheists, they worship so many Gods but actually these two options don’t exhaust all the alternatives, the Vedic understanding is much more sophisticated oh yes there is only one God but that one God takes many forms, there’s one God Krishna but Krishna comes in Narasimha, he comes in Vishnu, he comes in Varaha, he comes in Vamana, so Garuda Prabhu in one of his books he mentions that the Vedic understanding is neither monotheism nor polytheism, it is polymorphic monotheism, polymorphic monotheism there is only one God but it manifests in many forms, therefore these categories of monotheism and polytheism they are very simplistic and of course the sophistication the depth of the Vedic understanding does not end here because we don’t only worship one God, actually God is a couple so there is not only polymorphic monotheism, polymorphic bi-monotheism, they come and they derive the very sophisticated conceptions of religion that are there in the Vedic culture, in the Vedic philosophy, now if we look at it simply you know yes Narasimha dev emerged from pillar, Prahlad Maharaj did not garland the pillar, he garlanded Narasimha Dev although we don’t worship everything as God, we understand that everything is sacred, everything is the abode of God God is the Paramatma is present everywhere, so you know the Vedic understanding is that in the Vedic philosophy God’s mercy is manifest to the fullest, it is manifest to the fullest in two ways, in one way the spiritual realm is revealed more than any other tradition, you know what does God do, what his pastimes are, how does he relate with his devotees none of this is described in any of the religious traditions, so even with respect to transcendental realm the revelation in the Vedic philosophy is far greater, but the greatness of the Vedic philosophy does not end with that the Vedic philosophy also describes how God manifests himself or diffuses himself through matter in various ways by which we can connect with him, by which we can worship him, if God is only spiritual and he has nothing to do with matter and we are in the material realm and we cannot think of anything except matter, then how can we possibly connect with God it remains only an intellectual, intellectual means just an intellectual process that yes I am thinking about God but actually in our condition stage when we are in the realm of matter we cannot think of anything spiritual so Krishna manifests his mercy in many many ways, so Ramacharya describes that you know the Supreme Lord has five manifestations so he says Para is the form of Narayana which is there in the spiritual world, then there is a Viewer, Viewer is Vasudeva Sankarsana Pradyumna so that they are in one sense like Mahavishnu, Garbhodaksha, Vishnu they are connected with the material world and then there is the Antaryami, Antaryami is the super soul who is present in the heart of all living beings and the fourth is the Avatar who comes in this world periodically to manifest his pastimes and the fifth is the Archa Avatar, the deity, so the Lord repeatedly keeps manifesting himself in the realm of matter by which we can connect with him and think of him, so that is actually Krishna’s great mercy but that does not mean that matter is to be worshipped, but through matter God is to be worshipped so if you see in Vedic culture, people, farmers they would garland their cows and they would decorate their cows it would almost seem like they would worship their cows, but what is the understanding? the understanding is that in our conditioned stage, we actually everything, our very existence is God’s mercy you know we cannot run our own bodies, you know we think of our body only when it doesn’t work with us but we can’t make it work, those of us who are sick we can know that so we think of God’s grace manifesting through our health, bodily health only when the health doesn’t work but generally speaking, when we get something good in our life, that is what we value as God’s grace yes, I get some success, I get some fame, I get some house so Vedic culture said that, okay, whatever way we can see God’s grace, worship God through that so for a farmer, the cow and the bull are the source of sustenance and prosperity so the cow and bull should be worshipped, for the artisan, for the workers, they will worship their tools it’s not that they think their tools should be God, now some people who have no philosophical understanding may think like that but no, that is not the Vedic understanding similarly, if we read the Mahabharata, the Pandavas would actually respect in garland their weapons as devotees, our weapons are our krathas and buddhanas so we see in the Kiratnakar, how before in the Kheturi festival the kirtan started you know the krathas and buddhanas, chandam was applied on the krathas and buddhanas chandam was applied also on the devotees who were going to sing and then it started, so the idea is, that which is in the material world, material manifestation is the best the most important, the most valuable for us, we see God’s grace through that so in our current modern times, people consider car as a sign of status and prosperity so okay, yena kena prakare da bana krishnu niveshe if you get a new car, yes you can worship the car, at least for that purpose you will come to the temple at least for that purpose you will think of Krishna, so it’s not that the car is being worshipped but the grace of God which is manifested to us in an understandable form through the acquirement of the car that is what is being respected and worshipped so therefore, that way, the Vedic understanding is, that whatever way you can think of God, you think of God so yes, if you cannot think beyond matter, if you can think of only God’s greatness in terms of physical bigness then there is a universal form, the universal form is surely not the highest understanding even in the Vedic scriptures it is an intermediate understanding, but it is an important understanding for those who cannot think beyond it in the initial stage, so the Vishwaroop actually describes, now Prabhupada elaborately analyses in the second canto, whether the Vishwaroop is real or it is figurative and Prabhupada explains that actually the conception of God having a material form is wrong God cannot have a material form, that means, we say that God’s eyes are the sun and the moon the heavenly planets are God’s forehead and the lower planets are the Lord’s legs so, this idea that God has a material form like that, it is wrong God does not have a material form, but… that is the principle, whatever way we can think of God, think of God so therefore, if the bigness of material things, the physical greatness of material things can help people to think of God, fine think of God in this way, the mountains are the bones, the rivers are the navel, the trees are the hair so in this way, you think about God, what is important is, we think about God, we connect nature with God and from that point onwards, once God consciousness begins so, the important principle is that Krishna in the Vedic literature manifests his mercy in so many ways to reach out to people but unfortunately, the sophistication of the Vedic philosophy is not understood so, there are critics of… and of course, Prabhupada talks about the Mayavadis in this purport but the Mayavadis, now in Krishna’s great mercy is that he manifests as the deity Prabhupada in the previous purport talked about the deity worship so, we, if we want to develop a relationship, how can we develop a relationship if there is no person? it is very difficult, now if you see in the Vedic literature, Rig Veda, Sam Veda, Yuga Yatra Veda and even in most of the Upanishads, Aranyakas, there is no mention of deity worship why? because there, the purpose is not to develop a relationship with God the purpose is to use whatever higher principle, higher power is there to fulfil our material desires like many times, people even, they come to a temple and they close their eyes and pray fervently and then they go out and then they ask them, you know, so, do you take darshan? they say, yes, whose darshan you take? oh, whose darshan? I don’t know, something I went and prayed to so, people go and they pray to any deity, you know, they will not even see whether it is God or it is somebody else it is some ordinary human being being claimed to be God so, you know, people in the materialistic level, they are not concerned with who they are praying to as long as their desires are fulfilled so, what is important is, my desires should be fulfilled so, yes, for that Karmakanda level of worship, the deity is not necessary that’s why in the Vedic literature, primacy, deity worship may not be mentioned but the Puranas and the Agama scriptures basically, the Puranas and the Pancharatras they talk extensively about deity worship because they are talking about developing a personal relationship with God developing love for God and returning back to God so, unfortunately, the Mayavadis, they interpret the deity as a symbol of the impersonal you know, actually, you cannot think of God, so you symbolise God in whatever form you like whatever form you like, you take that form and worship that form so, the Mayavadis started this Panchopasana you know, Panchopasana is this five deities, you can choose whichever of the Ishtadevas you like there is Shiva, Shakti, then Vishnu, Surya and Ganesh so, now, Bhaktiswami Sri Dhakur, in his Gaudiya Bhashya commentary on the Chetan Charitam, quotes from the Pushkar Samhita and he describes that actually, these five are not equivalent they are progressive he describes that if somebody wants Dharma, you should worship Surya if somebody wants Artha, you should worship Ganesh if somebody wants Kama, you should worship Shakti if somebody wants Moksha, you should worship Shiva and if somebody wants to go beyond Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha, then they can worship Vishnu so, the idea is that it is progressive of course, now if you see in modern times it seems that Surya has lost his popularity yeah, only few temples of Surya like at Konark so, we have so many deities, temples of Ganesh, Shiva and Durga so, the idea is that, these people think that whatever form you take it doesn’t matter because ultimately you have to go beyond that to the formless but this is not the conclusion of the Vedic literature but this is the predominant current understanding so, there are critics of Vedic religion who say there is one Muslim preacher who says now the Hindus, Hindu Pandits, they say that for the less intelligent people, you need to have a symbol and then, by the symbol, you can go beyond the symbol to the formless so, he says, yes, for the less intelligent people you need a symbol, we Muslims don’t need a symbol therefore, we are not less intelligent, we are more intelligent and you are less intelligent and all the Muslims clap, and the Hindus get dumb they don’t know what to say they don’t know so, it’s a cheap argumentation sometimes, people, they are so ignorant that they don’t even understand ignorance see, our Acharyas, Islam was there for more than 1000 years in India but none of our Acharyas, Vaishnava Acharyas or Mayawadi Acharyas none of them even bothered to criticise Islam why? many of them, they would criticise Vaishnava Acharyas criticised Mayawad so much why? because copper can be mistaken to be gold now, copper is polished, it can be mistaken to be gold so, like that Mayawad can be mistaken to be the absolute truth so, criticised Mayawad but potato, who will mistake potato to be gold? but, objectively speaking, practically speaking, there is no philosophy in the Quran it’s mostly moral codes you know, we talk about fear, desire, duty, love so, Islam is a religion on fear and desire but unfortunately, because we don’t preach so effectively so, people get affected by all sorts of crazy propagandas and they get influenced and they get misled completely so, Shila Prabhupada had a tremendous preaching spirit in fact, Shila Prabhupada, in his books, in his Krishna conscious philosophy is such that, it’s so powerful, there is so much like, if you go in a war, there is enough ammunition to blow all the illusion, all the misconception in the world so, our philosophy is very powerful but unfortunately, the ammunition is lying at the Godown we are not preaching so much of course, I am not talking about me, I am talking primarily about myself and I am a very lazy person so, one time, I just slept too much I was very frustrated with myself so, I just started thinking so, you know, I remembered how this whole war analogy was there in my mind you imagine, a soldier goes on a battlefield and he goes to sleep over there it’s ridiculous now, of course, we see that happening in the battle between Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna when Lord Krishna sends the yawning weapon and Lord Shiva starts yawning and he goes to sleep now, we can laugh and enjoy because it’s Leela but Banasura was not enjoying that Banasura was angry now, of course, another example of sleeping is when all the Pandavas were sleeping and then, Ashwathama went and killed all that is cruel that is cruel but actually, if you see you know, a warrior, if he has strength but out of laziness, he goes to sleep on the battlefield it’s very tragic you know, one of the great strengths, I recently studied a little bit of the life of Shivaji Maharaj so, although he was completely outnumbered completely outnumbered while fighting with the Mughals now, how he was able to win? because of his speed speed of his attack Muslims, they would generally come on their chariots and Shivaji Maharaj never used chariot just go on horses so, actually, before that, the Hindus had outnumbered the Muslims when the Muslims first attacked but the Hindus would come on their elephants the elephant is very powerful but it is also slow and the Muslims would attack so fast so anyway, the point is that it is described that Shivaji Maharaj, sometimes for weeks, he would not sleep only he would just be riding on the back of the horse going from one part of the country to another you know, he would attack the enemy, defeat the enemy and before the enemy would react, he would go and attack another camp with the enemy and he was so swift that he won so much victory and we see, Prabhupada was so fast in the last 11 years of his life Prabhupada was fast without being passionate you know, we are passionate without being fast so, actually certainly, as it is said that hate the sin, not the sinner so like that, our Acharyas have there are many Hindutvavadis who criticise Muslims just because they are Muslims now, that may be to some extent fanaticism but our Acharyas distance themselves from that but at the same time, we should not hate like that we can say that hate the Adharma, don’t hate the preachers of the Adharma now, it is important that yes, if we start hating those who preach Adharma then we are going at the mundane level we are lacking in spiritual vision that is true, but at the same time it is also if we don’t hate the Adharma then also we are lacking in spiritual vision we should feel disturbed, we should feel concerned as so much Atheism, Materialism, Pseudo-religion that is being preached and we should try our best that we can to counter this Prabhupada has given us so much powerful weapons, philosophy Prabhupada has given us and not only that, Prabhupada has given us his own example of how we should preach vigorously at his old age Prabhupada’s last days also he was giving us Bhagavatam translations and commentaries and he was preaching and yesterday we saw how he was known as Bhakti Kaas Maharaj although he had practically no voice still that vigour was there so after the class I told Maharaj Maharaj your voice may have been feeble but your message was extraordinarily strong Maharaj was laughing so the point is that we have seen that there is so much vigour that for Acharyas also, before that Bhakti Samskriti Thakur also preached so vigorously so of course I am speaking all this for myself I am a very lazy person, I am bound by my anorthos and I seek the prayers and blessings of all of you so that I can also do some preaching and carry on the message and mission that our Acharyas have given I will quickly summarise we have few minutes for questions so as Thakur talked about three main points first was to understand how scientists say that matter is everything and that is wrong biology is not applied physics and chemistry because matter as is seen in living systems it grows, it maintains itself, it reproduces which life non-living systems don’t show and then we discussed how this can lead to even justification of abortion and justification of calling living individuals as tissues and killing them on the other hand we described about how the other extreme is to say that matter has nothing to do with spirit so that minimises God’s mercy God is so merciful that he knows that we cannot think of anything beyond matter so he manifests itself as matter so Vishwaroop is on manifestation and all like that and the Vedic understanding is very sophisticated and if we study it, understand it then we can propagate it vigorously and we can counter all illusions in the world and as far as possible we can take the example of our Acharyas and preach as vigorously as possible thank you very much, is there any question? it’s a good question is Vishwaroop a conception or is it actually existing? now the word Vishwaroop is used for many things so we have to be careful what we mean now this particular conception of Vishwaroop that the sun and moon are the eyes the mountains are the bones this is not exactly factual but if we look at the form of Maha Vishnu from which the universe is emerged or we look at the form of Garbhodaksha Vishnu who enters into the universe or we look at the form of Kshiradaksha Vishnu who actually pervades in the atoms, in the heart so if we look at it that way then the Vishwa is the Roop of the Lord because the Lord is situated as the Antaryami in the Vishwa so Ramana Ji had this philosophy Vishwa Advaita is that matter and spirit are the body of God he calls them so in that sense we agree with so if we look at that the Vishwa is the Roop of God because God is present as a super soul within Prabhupada takes that conception in this purport he says just as our body will not grow if the soul is not there similarly the super soul is not there the universe will not grow the interaction will not take place that is the thing which Prabhupada talks repeatedly so if we are talking about that the Vishwa as a Roop of God, that is correct so in that it is not exactly that the sun and moon are the eyes because the Lord is his own person who is there within the Vishwa so in that sense he is the soul and the Vishwa is the body so if that understanding of Vishwa Roop is there that is perfect now when we say again it is not factual again you know either something is true or something is false, this is simplistic understanding like you know I said polytheism, monotheism so you know is it that, is this Vishwa Roop just false is anything connected with the Lord, nothing connected with the Lord can be false so if you see that way, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu when he would see any forest he would say this is any lake he would say this is Yamuna now think of it from objective point of view it is not Yamuna it is not Govardhan now if you take that objective vision further that means Chaitanya Mahaprabhu made a mistake that is a big mistake to think like that why? because material reality is reality which creates illusion material reality the idea that things exist disconnected from Maya that is what is the definition, things disconnected from Krishna that is the definition of Maya in Chatur Shloka Bhagavad Gita Chatur Shloka Bhagavad Gita so the idea that anything is disconnected from Krishna is itself Maya so when Chaitanya Mahaprabhu sees forest as Govardhan it is a third category is it Govardhan, is it not Govardhan, it is neither actually there is a Chinta relationship between that forest and Govardhan what is that relationship? that actually the ultimate purpose of everything in the material world is to remind us of Krishna so recently one devotee sent me a mail that in South India Yatra when Raghav Maharaj was giving lecture some of the children they were playing and while playing they made a beautiful Govardhan they made a Govardhan and then the children were thinking oh they are doing such nice artistry so they made little Raghav little holes and everything they made like that and then they said we will go and tell Maharaj so Maharaj has finished his lecture and the children were right on the stage and they told Maharaj, Maharaj you have made Govardhan and Maharaj came and what did he do? first thing he did, he folded hands and did Parikrama to the Govardhan now you may say what is this? the children have done something, how can that be Govardhan? why we have to do Parikrama for that? now so the point is that God manifests through Bhakti Prabhupada explains in Malparpur that even if in some places the deity Pranapratishtha is not done but one way to do installation of the deity is through time that means for a long period of time if people keep worshipping a particular form then in reciprocation with sincerity of that worship the Lord will manifest so it is not like one or zero, life is not digital logic we are used to working in computer systems either it is this or it is that no it is not like that so is the Vishwaroop not God? no, is the Vishwaroop God? no so it is in between so Vishwaroop is certainly not an eternal form of God that is the first thing and there is no, it is not that there is a person who has eyes of a fan, who has bones it is not like that but when anything can help us to connect with God then that has to connect through our consciousness with God that cannot be called as illusory so when Maharaj is going around that Govardhan what is he appreciating? he is appreciating that by the devotional children they have tried to invoke the presence of Govardhan now certainly that Govardhan may not be the same as the original Govardhan but we cannot say this is just an imagination this child’s play, no so like that with whatever little trace of bhakti these pantheists have these people who are worshipping the Vishwaroop God as the Vishwaroop has devotees can think like that but whatever little they have we appreciate that devotion we don’t call that an illusory so that is why it is like in a category where it is neither, it is not God and it is not not God also it depends on the devotion so somebody who mistakes that to be God and that alone to be God he is mistaken and somebody who says that is not God he is also mistaken that is God but that is a lower level manifestation of God and we move higher to the personal manifestation of God well Srishti, Srishti is one of the leelas of the Lord so Vishwaroop is not manifested always when the Mahapralaya takes place everything goes back into the body of the Lord so when again the creation starts at that time the Vishwa manifests so in that sense just like when the body dies the soul leaves it and when the soul comes in the body starts growing so like that when the super soul enters the universal form starts getting created correct, universal form in that sense means universal but we are connecting the universe with the form of the Lord that is why we call that it is a universal form there are two things, there is a Vishwaroop and there is a Kalaroopa over there so Kalaroopa was not shown to Duryodhana Duryodhana did not see himself dying over there because otherwise there would have been no battle so Krishna showed his power to Duryodhana and told him to surrender but did not show him the inevitability of what was going to happen directly, so there are two parts there Vishwaroopa and Kalaroopa so Kalaroopa saw that God is not just the foundation of space and time God is also an agent in history agent in history means whatever is happening in this world, whatever changes are taking place that is the plan of God and it is God who is acting in this ways so history when we study atheists will study history as this person attacked, this person defeated, this person but a devotee tries to see what is the plan of the Lord so what is happening over there so Kalaroopa shows that God is not just a static background presence but God is an active historical agent who brings about transformations in this world so those two forms are shown the cosmic form is the background presence of God as a substratum of everything and the Kalaroopa is the presence of God as a historical agent we will have personal questions thank you very much shloka shloka shloka shloka