Role of self-care in bhakti, The Monk’s Podcast 145 with Sacinandan Maharaja

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna, Shri Nandan Maharaj. Please accept my humble obeisances. It’s a great honour and pleasure to have you on the Monks Podcast.
Thank you so much for sparing your time today. It is my great pleasure. I have heard so many wonderful things about this podcast and was able to look into one or two.
I think it can become a very good discussion today and I hope that I will be able to address you and your audience to your full satisfaction. Thank you, Maharaj. Since the first time I heard your classes, it was almost 16-17 years ago, I was struck by two things which are in one sense difficult to combine.
You have a very high level of introspection and devotional intensity. I’m using the word in a positive sense. But at the same time, you were remarkably approachable and friendly in the way you give your classes and the way you interact with devotees.
So that I found very remarkable because generally when somebody is more introspective or devotional, it’s difficult for, sometimes we fear that to approach that person. But you make devotees so comfortable by their classes, by presenting your classes. Although you talk about the need for becoming serious in bhakti, but the way you could say you help devotees to comfortably stretch out of their comfort zone.
So I’m very grateful for you to join and I thought based on that we could discuss a subject accordingly today. So I don’t know how well I’m doing, but all I know is that as someone who wants to share knowledge advances or let us say becomes older in years, the value of compassion has to come into his life. He should think, what can I do to uplift others so that they will benefit? And I’m trying, I’m imperfect, but I’m trying to follow that lead, so to say.
Thank you very much. So before we start the discussion, you have a very distinctive background. I don’t think this is a like a zoom created image.
It seems this is a part of your altar or this is I think Krishna and is it Radharani or Vrindadevi, could explain a little bit. Thank you for your interest. Well, I have heard that the Goswamis, when they were not yet in Vrindavan but lived in Ramakeli, called different places in their environment by Vrindavan names.
This is the Govardhan mountain, this is the Yamuna, this is Radha-Kundanshyama. Similarly, we are trying in our Gorabavan, where we live, to find reminders of Vrindavan. In the back, there’s a picture of Vrindadevi, who ushers the devotees into the spiritual dimension.
Right next to her, the lord of Vrindavan, we call him Gopal Raj, who is engaged in lifting Giriraj for the protection of his devotees. If I could show you around, there are many such photos, pictures, deities, because when we are outside of Vrindavan, we still want to have Udipans or inspirations for the spiritual world. Yes, Maharaj.
So, in one sense, Prabhupada’s mission was also that. He left Vrindavan, but he carried Vrindavan in his heart and he, through all his temples, he said, my temples are in Vaikuntha. So, he wanted to create the Vrindavan mood.
Thank you, Maharaj. So, Maharaj, I have read this analysis of the tree of life, which you often present. And the first time you spoke it, and I heard from you in Radha Gopinath temple, it struck me very much that how holistic and balanced it was.
So, I thought based on that model, we could discuss on the topic of the self-care and chanting in spiritual, in our devotional growth or in our growth in life. So, maybe if you want, you could, this, the tree of life, this is a metaphor that you read somewhere or you were inspired by, or you read and then you developed it in the contemporary setting. Because it’s a very striking metaphor.
Yeah, metaphor wants to express that just like a tree has roots, a trunk and a crown, a healthy human being must have spiritual roots, a spiritual practise. He must have as a trunk of his life, the way he stands in the world, physical and emotional well-being. And he must also, like the tree, have a crown from where he contributes his social well-being, where he’s useful.
The metaphor came really from two sources. I think we all know the Upanishadic analogy of… Upside down, yeah. Yeah, that is, that refers to the world.
This world is a reflected tree, like you said, an upside down tree, the upside banyan tree. But in this tree-like world, the human being is a small tree. In the body, the Upanishads, the Bhagavatam says there is a nest, or no, there are two birds in the tree of life, the individual soul and the super soul.
One enjoys the fruits and the other is just watching. So, the idea that our human body is like a tree came from this Bhagavatam and how do you say, and Upanishadic example, but it is a creative example. It is something I made up in order to take the wisdom of our scriptures and make it relevant for practical application.
Oh, okay. Yes, that tree example is very striking in terms of what you said. There are three aspects.
There is the, we could say, the inner and then the personal and the social, to put it that way, in one sense, the body and mind. So, quite often, there is the conception that spiritual life itself will solve all problems. Prabhupada is attributed to have said, especially based on his conversation with his spiritual master, first conversation, that Krishna consciousness itself is the solution to all problems.
So, when we say that our spiritual foundation refers to one aspect of the tree, is it that our chanting or our devotional practises themselves will take care of the other aspects of the tree? Or is it that we need to broaden our understanding of Krishna consciousness, that Krishna consciousness is not just chanting, but even taking care of a physical and mental, emotional well-being that is also within the ambit of Krishna consciousness? Yes, thank you for this necessary question. And how much does a spiritual person have to take care of the body and mind and his relationship to others? As long as we are in the material world, we have to be active in a parallel way. One area in which we act is our spiritual well-being, but then we have the body.
We are now with this vehicle, the material body, and we have to also take care of the vehicle so that we reach our ultimate goal, Krishna consciousness. That’s why Shrila Prabhupada was thinking of introducing next to the philosophy and the sadhana also Varnashrama in our society. Varnashrama is a structure in which each individual member has some physical well-being in terms of his safety, his income, his food, his chapatis, and he will find also all the other human needs fulfilled in the Varnashrama system.
Prabhupada, in order to bring the relevance of Varnashrama to our attention, it is meant to stabilise the shaking position in the world. We are not yet in the spiritual world. We need some support so that we are in this world stabilised and safe and so on.
So they need to be done parallel. However, this is very important right at the outset. Just like when you go somewhere with a car, you need to take care of the car, but you always at all times need to have your goal in mind.
Otherwise, your car might take you somewhere where you don’t even wish to go. So, self-care in itself is not sufficient. You need to combine it with the goal of life, so that you take care of your vehicle, of your body and mind in order to reach the spiritual world.
Oh, that’s beautiful. The way you put it, the car body metaphor is standard. We use the standard metaphor to talk about how our essential identity is spiritual.
But that same metaphor can be used to emphasise the other point also, that for the soul to function in the world, it needs the vehicle. I am not the car, but if I have to go somewhere, I need a car. So, I need to take care of it from that perspective.
A little while ago, many years ago, not a little while, it was about, I would say, seven years ago, I was invited to Tehran and I was sitting in the park where Srila Prabhupada had walked when he visited Iran. And I had before me a manuscript of a conversation, a typed conversation of his. And he made such a beautiful point.
He said, the Krishna consciousness does not mean to neglect the physical body. No, you take care of the physical body so that it can give the fruit of self-realisation. Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, without, let us say, the assistance of the body, only self-realised souls can make it.
Those who are not yet self-realised, who are in a body, will find that diseases, strong emotional discontent, a social isolation will discourage them so much that they will not pursue their spiritual life with enough strength, and they will become slow and discouraged. That I have seen in many cases when here in the West, when our, those who came to Krishna consciousness gave up the path. They don’t have difficulties with the philosophy.
No, they are convinced, but they have difficulties with the other people, the devotees, or they feel, oh, I have no safety in my life. I must go to take care of things and leave the ashram, and so on. It’s because these areas were not covered to the full satisfaction.
Thank you, Maharaj, for sharing this, especially the incident of Prabhupada talking about taking care of the body. You know, I was, when you mentioned the tree metaphor, I just recollected that twice in the Bhagavatam also the tree metaphor is used, but in a slightly different sense, where I think in the Bali Maharaj teaching, Bali Maharaj’s pastime, Vamandev is being told by Shukracharya that don’t give charity to Vishnu. But the reason he gives is that even if you want liberation, you need the, like liberation is the fruit of the tree of the body.
But if the tree doesn’t exist, then you cannot get liberation. And again, the same metaphor comes in the teachings of Vasudeva to Devaki. Not in that teachings, rather in that discussion where Kamsa is about to kill Devaki.
So Vasudeva also speaks the same metaphor. So, of course, the fruit that is talked about is liberation. And what you talk about is the fruit as social contribution.
And we, of course, we can say that the ultimate social contribution is that we help others become liberated. But the essential point of the tree is that the body is essential. That is, it seems it is there in many places in scripture.
And as you said, it is there in Prabhupada’s words also. But somehow, is it that in the general presentations that we, that were made to devotees in the, maybe in the first few years of our movement, that the bodily dimension was neglected for some reason. And the idea that the more you can neglect your body, the more you are spiritually advanced, or the more, the less you sleep, the less you eat.
In one sense, you neglect the body. So was that like a, was that a connotation that came up because of some circumstantial reasons? Or how do we understand? Like in scripture, it is clear the body needs to be taken care of. And the common sense also, like the metaphors, we can understand that.
But still, it’s widely prevalent that if somebody extends themselves a lot and neglects either their body or even their social situation, financial situation, that is often seen as a sign of spiritual seriousness or spiritual advancement. So how did that notion come up, Maharaj? I think it comes up in two, there are two perspectives. One is that it is, I think, very natural that at the beginning of one’s spiritual path, one emphasises his spiritual development over every other concern.
Those who have joined us, they have done before the material life, you know, they have tried to earn, they have tried to become educated, they have tried to live a happy life in their families, where they were eating nicely and had nice relationships. But they have found they cannot become satisfied with these things alone. So therefore, when they hear about Krishna consciousness and the possibility to live an entirely soul-based life, where you try to also get a relationship with God, you think, wow, let me drop everything else aside, and this is the best thing, and you emphasise it.
I think it is natural, and there are sociological studies which do say that in the beginning of every religious movement or spiritual movement, the adherents or followers are only into this, and then later, as the movement grows, they also need to take care of other things. Family concerns, for instance, everyone is a celibate monk when they join and then concentrate really on the spiritual practise, and after some time, some may decide, no, let me also have a family, and then other concerns come in. So, I think it’s permissible.
We have to excuse our super enthusiastic devotees who may have been a little unrealistic. They tried to give up the body and the mind and all their concerns, but they found out later, oops, the body and mind is still there, and it has some needs. Also, you must know, historically, Lord Chaitanya’s movement has role examples, the six Goswamis of Vrindavan, who gave up everything.
If you don’t mind, can I just respond to the previous point before you go to the second point? Yes, please. That was very striking. So, I read in sociological studies about the zeal of new convert, whenever somebody joins, but I had thought of it more in terms of they want to convert everyone to their path.
And that is true, that this I have got the answers and everybody accepted and everybody else in ignorance, but it can also, so that you could say almost some form of extremism or fanaticism that can come not only in terms of imposing one’s ideas on others, but also imposing those ideas on oneself in a way that may not be sustainable or realistic in the long run. So, it could be almost like two sides of the same thing. One way is external on the world and another is on one’s own body and mind also.
So, would you echo, is that similar to what you are saying, more or less? Hundred percent, yes. I would say the first, it starts with, wow, I found it and nothing else counts. Everything I knew, I was not becoming happy.
And then the second step, wow, this everyone should take this and it’s so good. And sometimes another very unfortunate thing comes. It’s only a theoretical finding.
It’s only a conceptual agreement, but it is not realised. And because it’s not realised, because the individual has not yet found peace and is not yet deeply rooted, he overcompensates his own weakness, his own doubts by running into the world and trying to make everyone a follower or because that would give him finally the peace of mind. Yes, others also agree with it.
Fanaticism is always an overcompensation of weakness. We do not find realised souls fanatic. We find them very integrating, very compassionate towards others, trying to see how they can help on what level they can help, how much to give, how much to not give of the philosophy.
That’s amazing. Fanaticism is an expression of overcompensation. It’s such a striking thought.
Once you put it in, sometimes some truths are inchoate, they are there in the background, nascent, but once they are articulated, it makes so much sense. It’s so self-evident, once it’s made evident. So, thank you, Maharaj.
So, one reason you mentioned was that it is just natural in the process of spiritual growth. And the other reason I think you are mentioning that our exemplars are renunciates. Yeah, the Sikh Goswamis of Vrindavan, they, as you know, were very renounced.
They stayed every night under a different tree. That means they had no dwelling where they would permanently be. Only later they had bhajan sthalis, where they would do their bhajans, tear kadamba, and bhavan sarovar, and other places.
But they were very renounced. We have stories of Sanatana Goswami offering his deity every day a little, a little, it was not even a full chapati, a little bowl of roasted grains. And then Lord Madan Mohan says, can’t you just offer me a little salt at least? So, he was so renounced, Sanatana Goswami.
And they wrote the books, they gave the philosophy, they made the first temples of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, they established the foundation. But it is necessary to understand their sense, their renunciation was a state of consciousness, which you call vairagya. The world had lost their colours of attraction, and only the spiritual world was attractive for them.
It was a sign of their great love for Krishna. They didn’t practise renunciation. They didn’t have to struggle, or should I take a cold shower or warm shower, or should I eat less? That was not even in their mind.
We, who are not like this, and who practise renunciation without having that state of mind, we need another medicine which the Goswamis gave us. And I want to quote what Rupa Goswami and Sanatana Goswami said about proper renunciation. And you will, I don’t know, how do you respond to what I said, the role model of the Vrindavan Goswamis gave us an example and an ideal of renunciation.
Yes, I mean, it’s now that you’re speaking this, a lot of thoughts are going on in my mind. While the Goswamis exemplified extraordinary renunciation, but in their books, they did not really standardise that. Again, one of the principles in Rupa Goswami is saying that, you know, you should, a devotee should not be neglectful in ordinary activities.
And Prabhupada gives example, like even brushing your teeth, you should be attentive. So, in one sense, we could say the exemplars are, they are exceptions. Like, is it that we would like to go at that level, but unless we have that love of God, artificially trying to go at that level can be counterproductive.
Yes, we can enter a world of concealment, actually, where outwardly we are very renounced, but inwardly we hang after position, prestige, and sometimes even after worldly goods. What I wanted to say, Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, is the medicine which the Goswamis gave was called yukta vairagya, or proper renunciation. And the way they articulated it was, Rupa Goswami said in the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, anashaktasya vishayan yathaham upayunyathah, etc.
One who is not attached to satisfying his senses, yet accepts everything in relation to Krishna, is properly situated in renunciation. And then, in the next verse, he makes it even more clear. He says, that renunciation which is practised by those desirous of impersonal liberation, and which rejects things in connection with Lord Hari, thinking them to be material, is called phalgu vairagya, external or false renunciation.
It won’t stand very long. So, when there is something, this is useful for devotional service, and which comes from the material world, you accept it, but not for sense gratification, but in the service for Krishna. And our body, look at this, how useful the body is.
It has hands to clap during kirtan. It has a tongue to chant. It has ears to hear.
It is a kirtan body. Or, if you want to not just say one sadhana should be done by the body, you would say that it’s a sadhana sharira, a vehicle to perform spiritual practises. It’s very useful if you use it for your self-realisation.
It is a gift that assists you. That’s proper renunciation. Yes, Maharaj, that’s beautifully put.
So, it’s not only, you could say, it’s not just a sign of fanaticism or overcompensation, as you said earlier, but there’s also philosophically, it’s a misunderstanding of how things are to be done. And so, when the Goswamis exemplify renunciation, it is that they are not actually in one’s sense neglecting their bodies. Is it that you understand that they are functioning at such a high level of spirituality that their bodily needs themselves have become minimised? Because, as you said, the Goswamis would eat very less, sleep very less.
But their vairagya, of course, was not phalgu. So, their renunciation was in no way coming in the way of using their body in Krishna’s service. So, if it becomes phalgu when we neglect the body and then we are not able to use the body in Krishna’s service.
So, is that the proper understanding, Maharaj? Yes, yes. I myself made that mistake. In the very early beginning of Krishna consciousness, I was very much attracted by renunciation because I come from a wealthy family and had a very opulent material life before I came.
So, I thought, let me do exactly the opposite. Now, I remember there were times when I ate for a year only one apple a day and a few raisins. And after some time, I became so emaciated and weak.
My mind was also not able to concentrate. There was so much vata that one very kind devotee sat down with me and said, this is not good for bhakti. You cannot do devotional service.
You have exaggerated renunciation in an unhealthy way. And he explained to me the concept of yukta vairagya. And this is what he said at that time.
He said, there are three visions on the world. Karma, that means, how can I enjoy the world? It is looking at the world with the intention, is there something for me to enjoy? And if yes, then how can I get it? Then there is jnana, the opposite. It looks away from the world.
Oh, no, the world is entangling, the jnana says. But then there is bhakti. And he said, in bhakti, we look beyond the world.
We don’t look at the world. We don’t look away from the world. We look beyond the world.
We look to Krishna and see what is useful in his devotional service, and how can I develop love? The concept of renunciation, which was maybe there in my mind when I was immature, very immature, I’m not saying I’m mature now, but in the very beginning, was I wanted, I was such an accomplished sense enjoyer. Now I wanted to become an accomplished renouncer. At the early time, I was admired for money, for wealth, for opportunity, for sense gratification.
Now I turned around. I wanted to be known as someone who eats very little, who sleeps very little, but the same hungry I who wanted to be in the centre was still there. Bhakti means Krishna is in the centre.
It’s not about you enjoying or renouncing. It is about Krishna. It’s a totally different perspective.
Oh, beautiful. So look at the world, look away from the world, but look beyond the world. That’s nicely about karma, jnana and bhakti.
So we can say in one sense, the body also represents a part of the world. So that’s a very striking vision. I try to also play with words when I write on the Gita.
So I had thought of a play of like romanticism. Sometimes we romanticise the world, we demonise the world and then we utilise the world. Yes, wonderful.
Thank you. Wonderful. Thank you, Maharaj.
So with respect to the body, I think most devotees have now recognised the need to take care of the body. In one sense, as our movement is also growing, many of our devotees, senior devotees are becoming older where the need for bodily care becomes more evident also. If we could shift the discussion from the body to the mind a little bit, unless you want to elaborate something on the body further.
But it seems till now, emotional care is something or taking care of the emotional side or the emotional needs, mental health, emotional health, that sometimes is still seen as something which is, is this really necessary? If somebody is having mental health challenges, we often say mantra is manas trayateti mantra, that the mantra frees us from all mental problems. So does, now we understand that earlier you started by talking about a parallel lens, that we take care of our bhakti and we also take care of our body. That is because essential vehicle for serving Krishna.
But to what extent do we also take care of the mind, not just through bhakti practises, but through some other measures also, which may be required for the care of the mind? Yes, wonderful, wonderful. You have a very deeply engaging way of looking at subjects or of issues which are of need for the spiritual practitioner. Thank you, Maharaj.
Well, in this world, we find a model called the Pyramid of Needs. It was presented for the first time by Maslow. Yeah, Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs.
Yeah. And he used to say, first we have physiological needs. You need to have food.
If you don’t eat for one year, I mean, most probably most of us will give in after one week already. And then there is problem and there is no sleep and you become totally sleep deprived. You will not have your sadhana.
You can’t concentrate on chanting. When that is fulfilled, you go a step higher into your safety needs, then to the belongingness and love needs. And I wanted to say here, this is, of course, a material, it is not coming from bhakti, this pyramid, but it is useful to a certain extent.
I once asked Radhanath Maharaj, when, at what stage does someone decide to join the Krishna consciousness movement? And Maharaj said so nicely, it’s not because of being convinced of the philosophy that someone primarily joins because of this reason. He said it’s because he feels these people are better than the other people which I have association with. I want to rather be with them than with the other people who seem to live on a sinking ship and so on.
So, they want to belong. They want to have friendships amongst devotees. I mean, don’t we hear this from Aruba Goswami, friendship with like-minded devotees is necessary.
And then it goes to esteem needs. I would say it’s more being in my dharma. For instance, I am a preacher.
Prabhupada told me this. I would not do very well as, let us say, cleaning a place. I would do a lousy job because my dharma seems to be different, my svadharma.
So, also, you get a lot of dissatisfaction when you don’t find your dharma. And if you don’t, but if you find it, you will be respected by others. Oh, he is a good cleaner.
He is a good preacher. He is this and that. It’s a definite need.
So, I have translated, I have looked at this pyramid of need. I found it was useful in talking about physical well-being, emotional well-being, and if you go higher, it goes into social well-being. Because these things are simply, this is the way the world is.
But what the materialist doesn’t always have so clear is, for what do you do this? For what purpose is this existing? What should you attain by taking care of? Why do this? And I would like to, just because it is so important to understand this, I would like to share something which Bhaktivinoda Thakur wrote about loving oneself. For a devotee, this self-care or loving oneself, some people say, sounds so opposite to all he wants to do. He wants to love Krishna.
He wants to attend to Krishna. He wants to care for Krishna’s concern. And then all of a sudden, what is this new age, wishy-washy, love yourself and take care of yourself? This objection is justified when you don’t take care of yourself with the right motivation, with the right goal.
Then you will be totally entangled in maya. But if you do this with a proper mood, then yes, your progress will be there. Here, there’s a question, what is the prayer of one who loves Krishna? And then Bhaktivinoda Thakur answers this, with my body, mind, and speech, may my love for the reddish lotus feet of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu increase day by day.
And then he says, let me have unflinching love for the Vaishnavas. Let me have love for Krishna’s qualities. Let me have love for the holy name.
Let me love those people who have taken shelter at Krishna’s lotus feet. And then he ends, let me also love myself, who am inclined towards Krishna, so that I may attain devotion to him. Let me repeat this.
Let me also love myself, who am inclined toward Krishna, so that I may attain devotion to him. So, after taking care of his bhakti, he wants to love Lord Chaitanya, the devotees, the chanting of the holy name. He says, I am trying to be on the path of bhakti.
I’m inclined to Krishna. So, in that way, with that perspective, I will take care of myself, so that I can reach his lotus feet. See, everything in this world, dualistic world, you can do it right, you can do it wrong.
If you take care of yourself without the perspective of going to Krishna, you become a selfish egomaniac. And we know these people. We know these people.
We have seen them everywhere, who are only, now, I like it like this, my way or the highway, because this is how I feel well, if I do it like this. This is the sure road to material entanglement. But if you say, okay, let me take care of myself, so that I’m fit and free for Krishna, that I can dance for him for many hours, that I can think of a new book to write, like Chaitanya Charan.
You must have written by now 30 books or so. For this, you need to be free to do this, of concerns and so on. Then it is very good.
There could be many examples of how one thing done in the therapeutic way is good, but the same thing done for just sense gratification is very bad for you. So, you have to do self-care in a spiritual frame. This is beautiful, Maharaj.
That quote is remarkable, Bhaktivinoda Thakur. And another point which you mentioned toward the end was that we talked about therapeutic use. So, normally, we talk about that more in terms of material things, that material objects that is often used in connection with Yukta Vairagya.
But what you are saying is that can also apply to our inner life, that taking care of our mind and self-care or self-love, as you mentioned, that it can, if it is within a devotional context, then it can become a part of our inner healing. So, that’s beautiful, Maharaj. Just one point about this.
So, is it that, say, we become lovable or we should love ourselves after we become pure enough to be lovable? Or is it at whatever condition level we are? At that time also, we should still love ourselves, not in the narcissistic sense, but in the sense of, in a functional sense or in a healthy sense. So, is that love for oneself an advanced stage of devotion? Because in that quote of Bhaktivedanta Thakur, that comes almost at the end. So, can a conditioned or can or should a conditioned soul also love oneself, a sadhaka? As you know, the word ātmā or self carries different connotations according to the various perspectives you know.
I wouldn’t say love the body, you know, or love the mind. I would say here the word care is more appropriate. Yes, that it is taken care of like you take care of your vehicle because you know it can carry you to where you need to go.
Yes, and I believe this is very much part of Vānaśrāma. Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, we here in the North European zone, at one stage were thinking a little bit of Vānaśrāma. We noticed that we have a responsibility to take care of old people.
We noted we have a responsibility to take care of children, of people in the congregation, and we wanted, we looked for a system that would give us insights. First of all, where to place everyone and then to see their needs and their rights also, which they have in a society, and we worked on that quite elaborately. Śrīla Prabhupāda had told our leader that he should explore this Vānaśrāma model and see how it could be applied for ISKCON, and it was at that time, this was 25 years back, it was really back at that time we were thinking of Vānaśrāma.
Then we totally forgot it because it was too difficult to bring it into an ISKCON context. We had to take care of our temples, of our farm projects, of printing and distributing literature, and we left this. Then a few years ago, when I started to look for a model that is holistic, a spiritual presentation for the outside world, where they would see the body, mind, and people are well taken care of, I read a book by Bhaktivinoda Thakur, which really was a mind turner for me.
It’s the book Caitanya Shikshamrita, I believe. It is an elaborate description how to apply Vānaśrāma to spiritually minded people. In that book, he said the whole purpose of this is to take care of people’s spiritual, physical, emotional, and social well-being.
With this, I had it. It may not be possible, maybe it is, but we were not successful to institute Vānaśrāma on a broader level in the society. It was not possible for us.
I know there are very, very serious efforts on the Hungarian farm, which were spearheaded or are spearheaded by His Holiness Śrīvarāma Rāja, but we could not do it. But when I saw these things, physical, emotional, and social and spiritual well-being, then I thought, okay, let me first of all practise like this, and I started to do exercises in yoga for physical well-being. The sadhana part was already in part.
I didn’t look at it so much. Emotional well-being, I thought, well, what to do? Well, I found out when I’m focused on a service for Krishna, which I do according to my natural inclination, my dharma, I feel just happy. I feel in my place.
I feel satisfied. Then I thought, okay, Sārchinandana Swami, you have been a preacher. You have done something on the social platform, but have you done it in your early enthusiasm? Maybe you look at it and know.
Then I found out, yes, I need to now no longer preach to increase our membership or to be known as an irresistible preacher. I need to do it with compassion. I discovered this value of compassion.
I was happy to read in Jaiva Dharma that compassion should be the main dharma of a Vaishnava in this world. So, yes, we are there to help others, to benefit society, to be compassionate friends. That’s my journey, so to say.
Thank you very much for sharing this beautifully. So, if I understand right and try to retrace the flow, what you’re saying is that if we are actually going to be compassionate to people, then we need to be holistically compassionate, that it is a part of our spiritual growth to actually take care of the complete person. We can’t just say, I’m going to take care of your soul and I don’t bother about anything else.
So, in one sense, Varanashram or any other initiative to take care of people financially, align them with their psychophysical nature. So, it seems that actually taking care of the body and the mind in terms of helping oneself and others become aligned with one’s own psychophysical nature and providing a supportive community that people can belong to. So, this is a part of Varanashram and we could say this is not mundane.
It’s an expression of compassion so that people can smoothly move in their spiritual journey. Was that the connection? Yes, yes, yes. You frame it very nicely in the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness.
I like to also frame it in another way. The way I had a few very personal encounters with Srila Prabhupada, only a few, two or three, but he was very personal and caring to me. I would like to only say one which impressed me.
It was in Sweden and I had not slept well the night, so when I came to Prabhupada’s lecture, I already knew I will be tired, so better I stand at the end of the, you know, behind all the devotees. But even in standing, my body started to sway from tiredness, and then Prabhupada, he just interrupted his lectures and said, let him go to bed. He does so much service, he should sleep now.
And, you know, I think it’s human nature that you see someone has a real need, not just a sensual desire, but a real need, and then a human kind person would say, yes, yes, no. I was thinking he would chastise me, you are not interested in philosophy, you’re only good in eating and sleeping, you are not really my disciple. I thought when he stopped his lecture he would say like this, but then he said, no, you do so much service, you just go and take your rest now and sleep well until you are strong and healthy.
It’s compassion, it’s a human nature. It’s not just, let me say, a philosophically understood need or strategy. It is something which a mature person will do.
For some, Prabhupada wrote this very famous letter, first comes your health, then comes your sadhana, then comes your seva. He wrote this letter. I would like to know the context in which he wrote it.
Did he write this to a devotee who was ill? Then this statement looks, we understand it in one way. Did he mean it as a general prescription for all the devotees? I must admit to you, I do not know the context so that I cannot answer this, but at least there is a letter of Prabhupada where he says, first health, then sadhana, then seva. Although we usually think seva first, then sadhana, well, I don’t know, maybe, you know what I want to say, we make the order in a different way.
Yeah, we may even invert the order completely. Sometimes for seva, we give the highest priority and we extend ourselves so much that both health and sadhana get neglected. Yes, Maharaj.
So, now, going back to the earlier point of Varanashram, so if I understand right, when you’re talking about Varanashram, it’s not so necessarily so much in terms of, if we create an elaborate social structure, that could also be a possibility. But if I understand it, what you’re saying is, as an individual, applying Varanashram would mean trying to align ourselves, align our services, our engagements with what we understand about our nature. So, that will itself give us some amount of satisfaction and that will lead to a little bit more of emotional health and robustness.
Was that, were you using Varanashram in that sense? Yeah, I always think we need to understand the philosophy like this. If we cannot apply all the steps for cultural reasons, for manpower reasons, for so many reasons, then we need to see the essence and go with the essence. And Varanashrama is a model for taking care of these needs, the spiritual needs, the physical and emotional needs, the social needs.
So, I would also further recommend, if you want to find the proper way in which you take care of the needs, it’s sometimes very, very useful to talk with others. Best is with spiritually mature people. In the old times, these were brahmanas.
And, see, how do you see me, Prabhu? What have you noticed is my lacking and where can I improve? It helps because often we are a little bit blind when it comes to these things. We are sick because we didn’t know how to keep a healthy way. We are sad because we have not known how to have emotional well-being.
We are maybe spiritually undernourished because we have not known ourselves how to nourish ourselves properly. So, therefore, people can sometimes act as a healthy mirror in which you can see all those parts in you which you cannot see without the help of a mirror. Okay.
So, you are talking here more in terms of some guiding association that can help us understand ourselves. So, then whether when we are taking care of our emotions, is it or taking care of us emotionally, are we doing that in a healthy way? Are you doing that in the right way or are doing it in terms of, say, pandering to ourselves? So, what would be a healthy and unhealthy way? We will be able to better understand that by having other devotees who guide us. Is that? Yes, you have a very keen intellect which can put order into different subjects.
Yes. Thank you. So, now, going back to a slightly earlier question, which, so if somebody is, you earlier mentioned three things, that physical disease, I think you’re talking about mental distress and social isolation.
All these three will result if somebody doesn’t take care of themselves holistically. So, to some extent, can all of these be taken care of by more chanting? If somebody’s relationship either in their devotional circles or in their other family circles, if they’re not devotees, if those relations are not good, can greater chanting heal those relationships and satisfy their emotional needs? Or in one sense, to be able to chant attentively, we need a certain level of emotional stability or emotional health. So, are these two distinct things or are they related? Can one replace the other? Like so many things in devotional life, everything depends on your adhikar, your capability, your present state.
Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, I am personally very convinced that if someone can take full shelter of the Holy Name, the Holy Name will purify the heart from all the things which should not be there, and one will feel a deep sense of relatedness to Krishna. So, at that time, one will heal on many levels. I do know that Shrila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, he prescribed the Holy Name also in terms of physical illness.
He told his brahmacharis they didn’t need to go to a medical doctor. I’m supposing this was not in severe cases like cancer or so, but you know, mostly he said they should chant. Now, if someone can take shelter in the chanting of the Holy Name with body, mind and soul, many, many things in his life will become auspicious.
The bhakti lata beach will grow, and it is described in the Madhuya Kadambini that if you water the seed of bhakti and it grows, then the bhakti lata will sprout two leaves. One is Kleshagini, you will become free from misery, and Shubhadad, the other is you will feel very, you will feel auspiciousness coming into your life. I have been given the service to give retreats on Japa and also Kirtan.
We have many Kirtan melas and so on, and I have seen miracles happening for those who have taken full shelter in the Holy Name. I have seen people become even cured from diseases who made a turn and taking care. Still, I don’t think it necessarily is an either-or discussion.
I think someone who is chanting and takes full care in chanting will understand what do I need here to make my chanting well. For instance, I have seen that I do personal Japa retreats where I chant from the morning till the evening, and I have seen I can be much more awake if I do just for 20 minutes a few exercises that get the circulation going, so that my mind will not feel tired. I don’t think this is necessarily a contradiction.
I realise if I would be full of pure love of Godhead, I don’t think Gokeshor Das Babaji or Jagannatha Das Babaji would do yoga in the chanting sessions. I don’t think so. At least it’s not hurt.
I do know that Prabhupada did morning walks because it was good for his circulation. I think it’s a little bit a question of common sense and how much you take care of the body and so on. Observe yourself.
What does the body need in order to be active in devotional service? Can you do Nirjala Ekadasi and do your service in Ekadasi where you neither drink nor eat anything, or is it maybe better if you drink a glass of water? You have to see that yourself, and you will have the intelligence to decide these questions at the time when you make Krishna and your advancement in Krishna consciousness your main goal. If this main goal goes, then many things will come out of balance and out of synchronicity in your life. But nice, and since you asked, you let us speak more on chanting, Chaitanya Charan.
I’m talking much more about chanting and of Krishna Kadha these days than the tree of life. First things first. Yes, that’s beautiful.
So, I think the Adhikar point which you made, it addresses a lot of things that even Prabhupada talked about Rastila. He quoted the words that hearing Rastila will become purified. But if you are becoming agitated, then don’t hear the Rastila.
So, we could say similarly about caring self-care. If not doing that is creating a problem, and doing that is helping, then we can do it. So, for some, like Gaurav Shastra Babaji might not need it, but we may need it.
So, I think the Adhikar, somehow I feel that the concept of Adhikar is often talked more in terms of like abstract levels than in terms of practical application. Yes, we understand pure devotees are constantly absorbed in love for Krishna, but in terms of that each of us needs to understand our Adhikar and practise accordingly, that sometimes is not adequately emphasised. So, if a devotee wants to determine their Adhikar, is that also something which consult devotees or consult senior devotees and understand, or by self-observation we can understand our Adhikar also? Yes, self-observation is very, very necessary, self-introspection, but I would say aided self-observation.
Therefore, the philosophy is very important. When you read and understand the books well, there will be a time when you will integrate the teachings, and then you can really decide and see most of the things yourself, because you are helped by a perfect source. This is called Shastra Shakshi.
You see the world through the scriptures, through that lens, and through the lens of the scriptures you see many, many things much more clearer than without that lens. Then, if you want to go to others to advise you, make sure they know you, make sure that the others whom you ask have affection for you, they are concerned for your growth and well-being, because only then, when they know you and they have the motivation to compassionately help you, is their advice really suitable. But self-observation can help us a lot to see the Adhika.
You gave this beautiful example of listening to Rasa Leela and other such related Katha. You can definitely see when it purifies you, then your bliss of Krishna consciousness, but if this should agitate you and you begin to think of the man-woman relationship, then for now you can observe, this is not good for my spiritual life at this stage. Let me put this book on the pile of books which I read later when I have increased my spiritual life.
So, self-observation can immediately help you. I believe that this manana is a very important part of the life of a devotee. First comes Shravanam, he must hear.
Then comes manana, that means he must reflect on what he has heard, and in this way also do and include self-reflection or self-observation in it, and then he should see what can I apply in the Nididhyasana, on the third step. Then your life will be increasingly spiritual. You hear something, you reflect about it in relationship to you, the world, and so many other things, and then you see what of the many things you have heard and reflected can you now today apply in your Krishna conscious practise.
Then it will go very, very beautiful. Yes, the scriptures are meant to make us independently thoughtful. There is such a statement.
Do you know, Chaitanya Charan, a guru should have one goal in teaching. He should teach in such a way that the disciple knows what to do even in his absence, and the example is given of the sun who gives his light or her light to the moon so that even when the sun sets in the western horizon, there is a source of light. The moon can shine on its own.
It has received the rays. So, in our spiritual training, our spiritual life, we should really take care that we have the self-observation and self-discipline. That’s the goal of the whole learning process.
One of the goals. The other is to fall madly in love. Yes, of course.
It’s a very beautiful point, the way you phrased it. In, say, we could say material books on counselling, I had read the success of a counsellor is to make oneself redundant. That I had not thought about in spiritual terms, but what you are saying is that in terms of the mood of devotional dependence, we often emphasise that Janme Janme Prabhu Sai, that I am eternally dependent on my spiritual master’s mercy.
So, in terms of that mood, it will always be there. But in terms of practical decision making, a disciple should be able to make decisions. Yes.
In the absence of the spiritual master also. Like Prabhupada would say about us, when will they ever learn? You know. Okay.
And this is quite a radical thought. Even the example of sun and the moon is also very striking. So, sometimes we become maybe a little fear or sometimes a little fear is there in the hearts or it’s maybe sometimes it will trigger in the heart also that in the name of being independently thoughtful, we become independent.
But what you are making the point is that it may well happen that we may not have the guidance at some time, that the spiritual master may not be accessible for whatever reasons. So, that being able to take one’s own decisions, it’s not necessarily something which is whimsical or it may not be a sign of defiance. It can also be the sign of the success of a disciple or success of a Guru in training the disciple also.
100 percent. But the disciple should always remain devotionally dependent. If you don’t show your mercy to me, I’m nothing like this.
But he should learn and he should be able to give a lecture where the spiritual master says, wow, he has learned nicely. The spiritual master is in the disciple’s lecture and he says, this disciple has learned properly. I have seen this in mature disciples.
They are devotionally always dependent. They always love their spiritual master, but they are able to make decisions, to lead, to guide others, and so on, without having to always ask. Only in times when it’s not yet clear they will be asked.
But yes, the Guru wants his disciple to be independently thoughtful and devotionally, of course, connected. So, this point of, just to elaborate a little bit on the point of independent thoughtfulness, that with respect to, so if somebody feels by their own independent thoughtfulness, that I am at a phase of my life where I need to maybe at this time take greater care of my body or take greater care of my mind and my emotions and my relationships. And so, would this also change over the years? Is it, say, necessary that over the years a person, say maybe, like earlier you said, earlier we may, in the early years of our life, we may neglect our body.
Then afterwards we may recognise that, okay, I have to take greater care. Then as we grow further, when we become authentically detached, we may also maybe neglect or neglect or transcend, we could say more appropriately, transcend some aspects of the body’s demands. So, is this like a linear progression or could there be ups and downs? That means in a devotee’s life there could be phases when they, irrespective of whether they are more advanced or less advanced, could there be phases when they need to take greater care of their emotional side.
The physical side we understand, if somebody falls sick and they have a severe sickness, then definitely they need to take care. But can a devotee, can even a very senior or advanced devotee experience some emotional turbulences which may need the necessity that they take greater care of their emotional side? Yes, I want to give you what we always thought is that spiritual life, oops, yes, I can say it’s a straight linear graph. Yeah, it’s like this.
It is one upward graph, right? But on a closer inspection, you see that sometimes a person has to take care more of the body. He may be ill and has to take maybe a half a year more concentrated attention to the body and then he goes back into the old trajectory. But what I have seen, Chaitanya Sharan, is that spiritual life is a little bit, I’m not such a good drawer, it’s like a spiral.
Oh, a spiral, okay. Yes, and a spiral, in a spiral it goes up, but you always come to the same point which you were before. Let me give you an example.
As a bhakta, a young devotee, you might have been disturbed when someone ate your gulab jamun and you became very angry. So, your false ego reacted, who do you think you are? I’m two weeks early and more in the society of Krishna conscious. I’m your my two weeks and so on.
Then he may go further, advance further. Then he may be a sannyasi as a danda stands there in the kirtan and one young perspiring devotee whirls around, whirls around and loses his balance and falls on the sannyasi and the sannyasi loses his danda. Now, there are two responses.
He could give a mature response and say, please, maybe you have spun too much and lost your balance and not make a big thing out of it. Or he could, as a sannyasi, become totally disturbed like he became as a bhakta when someone stole his gulab jamun and he may be very, very angry all of a sudden, not in control of his emotions. At that time, after the incident, he would sit down and say, oh, sorry, I made a mistake.
I was too much hurt on my sensitive ego. I should definitely improve here. So, in other words, the same issues come up again and again.
Issues of material attachments come up even as you go higher. Even we understand at the level of bhava, there are still issues that come up like aparadas, making offences and so on. So, you need, I think, the spiral model where you move upwards but you come to the same areas east, west, south areas and serves us more in our spiritual advancement and sheds a genuine light on genuine self-purification and transformation of the heart.
So, I wanted to say this in response to your question, do issues come up again? Yes, and then they are left and are not important because you move forward and onwards in your life. But then again, you might confront them, the same issue, but in a more mature way, hopefully. Hopefully.
Okay, so now I’m understanding why you use the spiral metaphor. So, it’s that, say, a devotee who faces a health challenge when they are, say, five years in Krishna Consciousness and a devotee who faces a health challenge or we could say even an emotional relational challenge also. When they are 25 years or when they are 45 years, the challenge itself may be the same in broad principle and in all three cases, they may need to focus a little bit more on dealing with those challenges.
But based on their spiritual advancement, they will have greater maturity, greater insight. So, it’s like they will be facing that challenge itself from a higher perspective. Yes, and deal totally different with it.
Sometimes the health challenge for an advanced devotee, he will say, I don’t care any longer for the body, let it degenerate, I don’t want any medical invasion, it’s time for me to leave this world. He will not be so disturbed about the health challenge as he was when he was a Bhakta. Okay, so overall, when you give the example of a spiral, that means, again, it comes back to the point of Adhikar and self-observation that I have to know where I am in the spiral.
So, that also means that just because a senior devotee dealt with this problem in this way, doesn’t necessarily mean that I also have to deal with the problem in the same way. I may have to deal with it in a different way. So, I just give one example, in case you would like to address that.
One devotee recently mentioned to me that whenever I fall sick, I never take painkillers. So, I asked, why is that? Actually, I talked about this with many different devotees. One devotee said, no, painkillers have so many side effects and other things, I want to avoid those.
But then another devotee mentioned to me that if by my past karma, I am supposed to go through some pain by taking painkillers, what I am just trying to escape that karma. So, let me get that pain right now. But then I talked with another devotee, diversity said that, okay, but if that pain is so much that I can’t chant, I can’t study, I can’t do any service, then even if it’s my karma, it’s like I can’t bear so much karma right now.
So, better let me take some painkiller and maybe that karma will come in the future. So, another devotee gave me a response that, actually in one sense, if we take the karma argument too far, we can say that, where do you stop? If the weather is so too hot, should we use a fan? The discomfort because of the heat also is because of my karma only. I am living in a place where it’s so hot or so cold because it’s my karma.
So, should we not try to deal with any discomfort at all? So, in one sense, we could say all of these could be valid personal approaches based on, when a person is at different levels of the spiral. Could we say that like that? Wonderfully said, yes. And the different levels on the spiral obviously relate to one’s own Adhika or capability and one should not imitate the ways of another.
Yes, very, very nicely summarised. Thank you, Maharaj. Maybe just, can we have two, three more questions, Maharaj, before we finish? You will, of course.
Thank you. So, is it that in our scriptures, we don’t see much examples of self-care. We talk, we see more of the self-denial or enunciation more.
So, could it be that as Kali Yuga is, we could say, progressing or regressing depending on the perspective, as Kali Yuga is moving forward, is it that we will need, we mean as individuals as well as in our outreach people are coming to us, a greater degree of self-care will be required because people are more disturbed, there’s far greater stress and other things and even the family structures and the relationships are more unstable today. So, could it be that self-care is, if we consider 50 years before and today, society has become much more disintegrated now as compared to a few decades ago. So, will self-care play a greater role in a sadhaka’s life in today’s world as compared to say, a more traditional setting? I do think so.
I just recently read in the Bhagavatam about the rule of King Prithu and he was described to be a father to each single one of his citizens, which included even the animals, the prajas. So, that was the ideal, at least in the old times, that people should be cared for and whenever that is not happening, then the existential needs which are there, which need to be also fulfilled, need to be fulfilled in a different way. We can’t expect the government or the the to take care.
Their hands may be bound in so many ways. Yes, so definitely in a progressive Kali Yuga, where the effects of ill management and so many unfortunate circumstances become increased, you need to see how you can remain functional in your spiritual life and take care. But it is so important for me to again and again repeat.
Then I will go in a few days to Goloka Dham to celebrate Yamashatmi or this weekend we have a nice Ratha Yatra in Berlin. I need to go there with a car. So, I will take care that there is enough benzene in the car, that there is enough pressure on the tyres, because I want to go to Ratha Yatra.
I want to go to Krishna and on Yamashatmi. You always need in spiritual life to know what is your satya. Why are you doing all of this? What is the goal of your life? Then only the practises get life and bring you also there.
So, in the same way, this idea of self-care and when you do self-care, also think of other devotees. Are they taken care of? Can they function nicely? I don’t just want to take care that my resting place is peaceful. Let me see that they also have peaceful resting places so that they can rest and so on.
So, therefore, self-care, Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, always needs to have a social dimension. Otherwise, it needs to have a social dimension and a spiritual dimension. Otherwise, just to take care of the bodily and physical well-being is not good enough.
Underneath there needs to be roots of the tree of life, your spiritual sadhana, where you attend to Krishna, offer to Krishna, and over your self-care is the social dimension where you take care of others. Otherwise, it becomes selfishness. Okay, that’s beautiful.
In fact, that was my next question. So, social dimension means, what are we contributing to society? Yeah, or to others also. Or to others, okay.
Whatever we are social circle, it can be our family, it can be our community, whatever we are area of influence. So, in today’s world, there is a lot of emphasis on self-awareness, self-expression, we could say. This is who I am.
And often people expect that society should change to accept me for who I am. And this can come in various areas. It can come in terms of, we don’t want to go into specific, it could come in terms of various gender types, and it can come in terms of various other areas also.
But the idea that self-expression, that this is who I am, and the society has to change to accept who I am. You earlier talked about swabhava and engaging according to our swabhava. So, where does it, when we are acting according to our nature and contributing to society, and when we, in the name of acting according to who we are, we end up disrupting society, and we are entering out, pandering to ourselves.
So, would this difference be primarily measured by social contribution? Because in today’s world, people say that, no, society should accommodate me. Society should change to accommodate me rather than, I am not talking about devotional circle necessarily, but especially in the post-modern world view, there is this tendency towards self-expression becoming quite disruptive towards social structures and of course, by extension towards traditional, cultural, religious and even spiritual structures. So, to what extent can or how can self-expression be harmonised with tradition or existing structures, be they social, cultural, traditional? Yes, yes, self-expression is definitely a need, but it is only one leg of the human body.
There is another leg that is to take care of others, and then there is even a third leg to take care of your eternal Dharma. See, I was thinking about Dharma a lot in a life school which I am developing called the Vedic Way, and in that life school, we have found out that Dharma stands on three legs. One is, it’s called Svadharma, your own Dharma.
It relates to how you are now, the human being. Someone is an artist, someone is a priest, someone is a field worker, someone is an author, and so on. That’s his Svadharma.
That’s how he is, that are the skills and talents which he is born with. Then comes the second Dharma, very important. It’s called Manushyadharma.
It’s the ethical code that exists. Don’t lie to others, don’t steal, don’t hurt this Ahimsa, don’t hurt others by following your Svadharma or your self-expression, what you can do. And then comes the last leg, how do you say, Sanatana Dharma.
I have actually given the analogy of a house, the Dharma house. Everyone needs to live in his Dharma house. The fundament is Svadharma.
The walls relate with the environment that is Manushyadharma. The roof which protects you from everything is Sanatana Dharma, and everything must be in place. Let us take a very, let us take a successful businessman who at the same time harms others with his business.
He may make money, he may be a moneymaker, he has a good intelligence for seeing opportunities for business, but if his Manushyadharma is not intact, how to take care of the environment of others, he will be a very disturbance. And let us say he is ethical towards others and so on, but if he does not have a sense who they really are, they are parts of Krishna, and he himself is not believing in Krishna, he is not believing in God, then his help will be limited. He will address only the body, but not the essential nature of a person, the spiritual nature as a soul.
So, one thing alone is not enough. That is my point. You need to have everything.
A house is not a house if you only have a fundament at the ground. You need walls, you need a roof. It is beautiful, Maharaj.
So, Swadharma and Manushyadharma, in one sense it is such, once again you say it, it becomes such common sense. So, a person may be a warrior or a fighter. So, they are doing their Swadharma by fighting but if they are reckless, they are destructive, they are exploitative, then their Swadharma is not contributing.
So, why the word Manushyadharma, is it used specifically in our Shastra, in our tradition or it is a more of a common sense understanding? Yeah, I was, there are different technical terms being used. I am referring to the ethical codexes in relationship to others. Patanjali speaks of the yamas and niyamas, these normal rules for living.
Yes, I found this word Manushyadharma in, I think it was the Mahabharata. It is just, Swadharma is in relationship to yourself, the second dharma is in relationship to others and the third dharma is in relationship to God, to Krishna. Oh, okay.
That is beautiful. We could almost, in some ways, maybe we can correlate this with what Krishna talks about in Bhagavata, Adi Bhuta, Adi Daiva and Adi Yagya, those three circles, the body-mind, you could say the society or environment and then the supreme. That is beautiful Maharaj.
And so, what you are saying is that all three need to be addressed. That is when we are actually living in harmony. Yeah, okay.
Many things, Chaitanya, Charan Prabhu, are compositive. Many things come together and one thing alone is not enough. For instance, health.
You need to sleep enough for health or a minimum of six hours, but you also need to eat. Second thing is there. You need to breathe also, which is very important for health.
You need to, what else, water. The health is, you need to exercise the body. In other words, health is a phenomenon which you only can experience when the composites are there, the different elements which come together in such a way as to create the desired outcome of health.
So, in the same way, dharma requires a few things to be really there. I have so often seen, in the West, we have these very famous singers. Oh, they sing and they earn, when they sing at one place, they may earn a few million dollars and so on.
They are definitely in their dharma. They are singers. Varnashram doesn’t have the highest social rank for them.
They are shudras in Varnashram, but our society glorifies them. But some of them, what ethical life they have, they drink, they are very bad to their friends and their partners, and for money they will sell their head, even, and so on. This is not a successful life, although we realised one type of dharma, to sing.
Yes, very beautifully, very talented, very expressive, and so on and so forth. They need all the three things to be successful in life. It’s beautiful, Narachan.
It’s so true that when I was studying my engineering, I could see that some students really had passion for engineering. If they give a challenge, they could just forget everything and spend hours and hours on doing those things. The kind of absorption, the kind of attraction they had was huge.
But at other times, they were quite, they were into unhealthy habits, they would smoke and drink and do other things and use abusive language at times. So, in one sense, they were aligned, but aligned with one aspect of their nature. But other aspects, I could see their overall contribution to society or even to their own well-being was not really so much.
So, this is beautiful. I never thought of this in terms of dharma as you could say, we align with ourselves, but we also align with the bigger holes that we are a part of. So, the more we are aligned, then the more we can be healthily productive.
Yeah, and Chaitanya Charan, these students, for instance, if they are unethical, they will have a miserable life because dharma is something which you can’t break. If you don’t follow it, you won’t break through it. It will break you.
It’s the law of nature. So, they have to be aligned. I have seen so many successful people in one field who were just crying to me, why am I so unhappy? Why am I so ill at ease with myself? I do what I like to do.
And I said, let’s look at the other areas. It’s almost like you are like a person who said, I eat salad, but I have lung cancer. Why? I said, maybe you smoke.
Yes, I’m smoking. I’m smoking. Then you need to do everything to have a healthy life, not just eat salad and then smoke unhealthily.
That will kill you. My God, very graphic example of salad in one side, but smoking on the other side. Maybe this could apply even in devotional circles also.
Sometimes our devotees may be prolific book distributors or fundraisers. But then in other aspects of their life, maybe they are a little domineering, they are a little disagreeable. And sometimes they may even, they may be phenomenally successful in terms of their service.
But then afterward, they may even leave Krishna Bhakti. So, it is like what you said about the composite, that lack of balance may not just happen in material life, but it can also happen in devotional life with respect to one area being focused at the expense of others. Isn’t it? Right? Yes, it is exactly like that.
And we have seen how devotees, yes, have due to an oversight, it may not be bad intention, but may just be an oversight. For instance, an oversight in dealing properly with others, respecting others. That’s why our Radhanath Maharaj always stresses, serve others.
Whatever you do, serve. The position which you have in this life, you will leave it behind. When you die, you will not take with you your position.
Your bibek, your beads at the final examination will also stay behind. Your whole bookshelf with beautiful spiritual scriptures, Bhagavatam, Chaitanya Chaitanya Amrita, will be left behind. But what you will take with you is, was I serving in whatever position I was in in this life, you will take with you the taste in the holy name, that the beads may stay, and you will also take the wisdom and the insights, the realisations with you, although the books stay behind.
So, we should never go for those things which are of timeless value. Position is not, but have I served, is of timeless value. The beads, we will, even in this life, someone may lose his beads and may take new beads.
They are also left behind, but the taste of the holy name, that will be always with you. Even if you can’t find your beads, and also your insights and wisdom from the scriptures, they will be with you. Even if you have not a single book with you, because you have to travel some distant place and luggage is limited, you can only take so much.
Still, when you meet someone, you will be able to explain to them verses from the Gita and so on. So, these things, these invisible things, if you so want, they are the real success in life. So, it is beautiful.
We talk about material possessions not going with us, but it also applies in one sense to, even in the spiritual life, we have some possessions which we have to leave behind also, even if they are within a spiritual society. That’s quite a sobering thought. Going back to your tree metaphor, in one sense, what you talk, you mentioned the word invisible, so that struck me.
So, it’s almost like, when we go from, if we consider transmigration, we go from one body to another, it’s like the stem and the crown is not going to go, but the root is going to go with us. The root is invisible, you can’t see it. Okay, it’s beautiful.
So, we need to take care of the visible, but our priority needs to be taking care of the invisible. Yes, Maharaj. This has been such an inspiring talk, inspiring discussion, especially this last point, quite a sobering, at the same time, inspiring point to contemplate.
Just like a tree is nourished and maintained by the roots, a devotee’s life is nourished and maintained by his absorption in bhakti or devotional service, and this absorption is something which is invisible. You may not see it in someone so easily. You may see symptoms, but not the absorption itself and what he feels during the time of absorption, what he realises during this time.
So, the roots are the most important part of the tree of life. The spiritual practise nourishes all the other aspects and whatever other aspects are there, they should serve you in your progressive journey back home, back to Godhead. So, I’ll try to summarise and then we can discuss.
So, today we discussed broadly on the topic of the role of self-care in bhakti. That is a broad topic we discussed and we started with the metaphor of the tree, which is based on the Upanishadic metaphor and Bhaktivedanta Thakur’s teachings about balancing various aspects of life. So, the spiritual foundation is like the root and the physical emotional well-being is like the stem and our social contribution is like the crown.
And then we discussed whether just the spiritual foundation will address, the spiritual practises themselves will address other aspects also. So, you mentioned that generally for us as sadhakas, we need to work on parallel tracks that both need to be addressed and that is what our acharyas have taught. You mentioned about the Yukta-Vairagya principle, the Goswamis and when they exemplified very high renunciation, that was because they had the Adhikar.
It’s not that they were deliberately tormenting the body or rejecting the body. Rather, they were doing whatever was required for their body for their service to Krishna. So, we have to find out when, what way of interacting with our body and mind can help us focus on our overall growth in Krishna Bhakti, on our spiritual advancement.
So, then we are not the soul body example, the car body example. We are not the car but we need the car. So, we have to take due care of it.
But we need to be aware of where am I going with the car. Otherwise, I may just drive for pleasure or get distracted. And then the need for physical care is well recognised.
But when you talk about the need for emotional care, that may not be a little bit recognised. So, actually before that you mentioned the point that neglecting the body and a mind may be a natural result of the zeal of a new convert. That where we impose our faith on others and then we impose it in terms of unsustainable practises also.
Mentioned that actually fanaticism is often a over compensation for our own doubts or insecurities or weaknesses. So, when we need to take care of our emotional well-being, I think you talked about that in two terms. One is that we need to have healthy relationships.
We talked about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs that people need a sense of belonging. And also you talked about acting according to our dharma. That will itself give us a certain level of satisfaction.
So, that is more or less related with the self-esteem needs. So, the problem with the hierarchies like the Maslow’s pyramid is that they may talk about various levels of needs. But for what purpose is it ultimately? That is not known.
So, our scriptures give us that ultimate purpose that is to be fulfilled, that we develop our love for Krishna and attain Krishna by taking care of all the needs at various levels. And then when we discussed about that if somebody has mental health problems and can just chanting lead to solutions of those problems. So, you mentioned that in through your retreats and through your seminars you have found that devotees have found solutions to even physical health problems and emotional mental health problems also.
But we don’t have to make it like this or that. We can have a balanced attitude and see what a particular person needs. So, the role of Adhikar is very important that a particular devotee at a particular level may need a particular kind of self-care.
And that the Adhikar can be understood by taking guidance from senior devotees as well as from self-observation. And you mentioned in one sense after we do Shravan the Manan and Nididhyasan, those stages are like self-observation and self-application. So, in that connection actually a devotee is meant to become independently thoughtful.
That the success of a spiritual teacher is that the student can be guided, a student knows what to do even in the absence of the teacher. So, devotionally the student, the disciples are always dependent on the spiritual master but practically they need to be able to take decisions and that is not a defiance but that is actually success of the spiritual master’s training and disciple’s assimilation of that training. And then we also talked about when somebody is being independently thoughtful, the primary focus is on how we can best serve.
Understanding our own body and our own mind, our mood is ultimately of service. And then especially in Kali Yuga as things are, social structures are disintegrating, greater level of self-care may be required. So, rather than thinking of this simply as self-care, we see it as compassion.
We started with the theme of compassion also that what people need for their spiritual journey, we take care of providing them that. So, in that sense compassion is, we take care of people’s spiritual needs but also if they have certain physical or emotional needs. Varanashram is essentially not just a social structure but it’s also individual alignment.
And in that case of individual alignment, we talked about three levels of dharma. It is not just swadharma. Somebody may be a singer and they may be excellent.
They may love singing and they may be very good at singing but they may be having all kinds of unhealthy habits and self-destructive behaviour. There is swadharma and there is manushya dharma. That is how they are contributing society and then ultimately is bhagavad dharma.
So, many things are not isolated in life, many important things but they are composites. Just like for physical health, it’s not just we have to take proper food but food, rest, exercise, all these things have to be balanced, air, breathing. So, somebody may be on salads but they’re smoking so naturally they’ll get cancer.
So, somebody might unidimensionally focus on one area in life. It could be in material life. Or even in spiritual life and that may create some level of imbalance.
So, now as devotees, if we learn to, if somebody gets too attached to a particular service, that may not be because of rebelliousness but that may be because of immaturity, that they focus too much on book distribution or fundraising. So, then as they grow, the balance will come and to avoid getting imbalanced on the spiritual path also, we need to remember that there are externals in spiritual life which we also, we have to leave behind. So, our record of book distributed or temples built or whatever, even our Bhagavatam set and bead bag, we are not going to take but our insights, our taste, our devotion, that is what we are going to take and that’s why focussing on the tree, the root is most important and then the stem and the crown can be taken care of.
It is the root that is what is going to go with us sustainably, eternally in fact. Thank you, Maharaj. Would you like to add any concluding points? I’m very satisfied with your summary.
It has shown me you have such an ability to structure things, to capture the essence and I wish you and those who are listening to this podcast many, many years of insightful studies of this beautiful Krishna consciousness which has so many wonderful jewels to offer. I’m very pleased. I enjoyed our discussion very much and I have only my best wishes to you and all those who watch these and all the other episodes.
Hare Krishna. Jai Shila Prabhupada. Thank you very much, Maharaj.
Your inspiring association and your encouraging words. I see this as a blessing of Shila Prabhupada and Krishna so that I can continue