Science & spirituality how to harmonize IISc Bangalore

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
We are going to focus on spirituality From the Indian Vedic tradition Before I start I would like to ask you A question When you talk, consider the relationship Between science and spirituality So What do you think Is the nature of the relationship Are the two going in the same direction Opposite direction If same, how If opposite, how Are they completely unconnected What do you think of as The relevance of relationship Science in your life Spirituality in your life And how the two might relate Harmoniously or disharmoniously It’s a complicated question But I hope you got the direction In which I was going to talk about Any thoughts anyone Spirituality is undiscovered science Spirituality is Undiscovered science So There is an aspect of Reality that we have not yet Come across That’s a good way of looking at spirituality Thank you Anything else If you would want to talk about Your spirituality say With your colleagues Or with your friends Co-students The typical response they might have If they Would they have any questions Concerns, objections Or appreciation, whatever So what are the Dynamics of the relationship Spirituality is usually perceived as Very subjective whereas Science they call it very objective Everyone measures the same Temperature, pressure, etc In science but spirituality It seems different people Spirituality is Objective, science is subjective Yeah, right So Deliberately did that Anything else Science talks about what happens Outside of us But spirituality focusses on What happens within us That’s a good way of looking at it Science focusses on externals Spirituality focusses more on internals Yes Thank you Science makes Things better Science can make things better Spirituality can make people better Because of inner transformation So that’s true Thank you Anything else So any other areas of Possible tension or conflict Or disharmony I also find this feedback Science is more Material and Spirituality is perceived as Empty matter So science focusses On matter It’s more tangible matter You can say And spirituality It’s like what does it focus on It is sometimes A question It focusses on something But what exactly is Science is much more tangible Yeah, anything else Okay So Thank you for sharing this You have something more Okay So broadly When we talk about Science and spirituality I’ll take this in Three broad parts First is What are the similarities Then I’ll talk about What are the dissimilarities And then Then we’ll talk about Broadly The harmonisation Or is there harmony possible Or synergy possible What exactly is possible So When you talk about science Generally Science is said to have Two categories to it So that is There is Some postulation of Some theory And once the theory is postulated Then there is some Experiment done Which can either Prove or disprove the theory So for example I was in London UK a couple of months ago So when we went to Cambridge We passed by That tree The place where Newton Was supposed to have been sitting And then That apple Fell on it That’s what the legend goes So Now Apparently that particular tree Has become A sanctified tree And many people go over there And they It’s like a pilgrimage place For scientists You seek inspiration over there In fact many universities have What they call as a Replica Or a descendant of that tree They call it the Newton tree So We have in IIC also Ok Very good point So anyway So then Now When the Apple fell On him He Thought what made the apple fall And he came up with An explanation Now once he came up with That explanation Then there was an Exploration of that explanation Through experiments And eventually An answer came out This is the theory of gravity And that seems to work So Spirituality Also has Two aspects to it One is Philosophy And Philosophy gives us Postulates about The nature of reality We will talk later about The dissimilarities But let’s focus on The similarities right now It gives us Postulates about The nature of reality And then There is Practise There are certain Practises that are recommended And through those practises We Can get Experience Or realisation Of The Truths that are Postulated By the philosophy So in one sense Through theory and experiment What we get is Confirmation here This is what it is Through philosophy and practise What we get is Realisation So it’s somewhat similar These two distinct items are there In science and spirituality both How Another similarity is that both Arise from curiosity And both Are seeking answers We all Science is a search for understanding Spirituality Is also a search for understanding I’ll talk a little later about The difference between Spirituality and religion But Einstein Is said to have said There are Many statements Attributed to him And How many of them Are actually coming from him That is questionable But This statement at least Is among the statements That seem Broadly reconciliable With the other kind of statements That he has made So he is said to have said That The sciences The arts And the religions Are all Fruits Of the same Tree Of The human Search for understanding So Basically We all Look at the world Look at the reality Around us We try to make sense of it And There are different ways Of making sense of it The sciences Spirituality He used the word Religion over there But That whole thing Is We are looking for Understanding So in that sense Science and Spirituality Share some Significant Similarities Now One more Similarity Which is Increasingly Emerging Is that Even science Is Increasingly Proposing That What is visible Is much Smaller Than what is invisible So In science We start from visible reality Newton saw The apple falling Felt the apple falling Depending on whatever Version of the story we accept But From there He proposed An invisible principle That is gravity Now Most Scientific theories Or laws They are invisible They are Explanations Of visible phenomena In many ways The What makes our science so powerful Is Not the visible observations It is the invisible principles That help us make sense of those Visible observations And thereby Tap Into Certain Technologies Tap into those laws Principles Through the means of technology So in many ways Now We When we use the internet It’s invisible So the invisible reality Is far Is far more significant Than the visible reality And as we have So we can talk about laws Then we can talk about much of the Technological mechanism The internet is not visible Then We can also talk about The whole phenomena of dark matter And dark energy This Is not visible If we go down To subatomic particles Atoms themselves are not visible But subatomic particles Are even more so And all these Have a huge amount of significance So The atoms are not visible But Atom bomb The amount of power within an atom Stunning Shocking Sobering So the invisible reality Whatever it is That matters much more That is bigger than And it has greater significance Than the visible reality So this is Sometimes we often talk about science Is based on seeing is believing But that’s an oversimplification of science Seeing is important definitely in science But after seeing There is postulation And that What is invisible Again we can confirm it So in one sense If it’s a scientific journey Science how it goes is Is we go from the visible To the invisible And then we come back to the visible So the visible is initially the observation The invisible is the theory The visible is the Experiment Now Within science itself There has been this tension Between Rationalism And empiricism Empirical methods of observation That is basically What we observe So empiricism Focusses more on Tangible realities And they are the primary Rationalism Focusses more on Math and laws This theory makes This theory is mathematically postulable That it is You can phrase it in the language of mathematics So what happens is This Now empiricism And rationalism Rationalism is A theory that makes sense A theory Specifically Rationalism generally talks about Logic But in the language of science And rationalism as it is used In that direction is Not just something A theory that makes sense But also a theory That can be spoken In the language of math So Now Newtonian physics Brought both of these together Fairly well That the visible Invisible Visible But There was a huge Tension At the start of the 20th century Between Empiricism And rationalism So To a large extent The theories that came Especially quantum physics Now quantum physics Is very difficult To make any Empirical sense of Einstein Now this is He has said Not said to have said He said He He was mocking quantum physics And he said I would like to believe That the moon Continues to exist If I am not looking at it Now what he meant by that is According to quantum physics Some interpretation of quantum physics Is the Presence of the observer That actually determines The observed reality I am giving a very bare bones Explanation over here And I don’t want to Go into the theories The point I am making is That Science Quantum physics Is very difficult to Correlate The model of reality That is given by quantum physics With our Lived experience With our sensory experience And yet It seems to work Much of the technology That we use Is based on quantum physics So In one sense Which is to be considered More important Is the invisible Or the visible So Somehow there is Some relationship But the relationship Is not so easy For us to figure out But overall The invisible reality Does matter substantially In science And as science Is advancing more and more It seems to Be postulating More and more Invisible realities So now Spirituality Also says That That the invisible There is a visible Side of us And there is a invisible side And the invisible reality Is of greater significance So the visible reality Say could be the body The invisible reality Is the Soul The visible reality Could be the world Invisible reality Is the divine Whatever name we use For the divine So now The soul May not be physically Bigger than the body But the soul Is of greater significance So Now we could say Who has seen the soul That’s fair enough We could talk about that In a separate session But the point we are making is In postulation That there is the invisible Which is considered More important And this is a Very striking similarity That When we think of Spirituality As talking about Intangible Things But science also moves From tangible to intangible And the more The science advances The more it works In the intangible domain So Then After that We could say that Science Gives us results In the form of technology And for most people Their faith In science Some people say No requirement of faith in science Science is just about truth We’ll talk about that a little later But Whatever They have faith in Or the credibility That science has Comes from the working of technology So There is something Okay There are scientists Talking about different theories And this and this mechanism That mechanism But We see the result We see Mic is working My phone is working The planes are working So it is technology That mainly gives credibility Now In Spirituality also There is Philosophy And then there is practise And the practise Gives some experience So For most people The credibility for For spirituality Now both of these Together are spirituality So The credibility for spirituality Primarily comes From the result The result is Experience Now For spirituality You could say there are In the western world This categorises There are two kinds of spirituality Or two Not kinds But Two kinds Of focus on spirituality That is Philosophical spirituality And that is Pragmatic spirituality So What do we mean by this Philosophical spirituality Focusses on The On the claims The truth claims That there is a soul That there is A God But pragmatic spirituality Focusses on Okay If these are there How does that make a difference In my life So for example In the western world And even in India now Especially In some parts of India Meditation is becoming Very popular Now And there are many Scientific studies Which do seem to suggest That there are Tangible benefits Coming from meditation So the point What we are making over here is The invisible is bigger Than the visible But the invisible Affects the visible In tangible ways So Science The theories are invisible But the visible effect Is technology So the concept of the soul And the concept of God or Any kind of higher Spiritual realities They are invisible But is there a Tangible effect of that So The tangible effects Are being seen So meditation Or any kind of Spiritual practise The effects are being seen Increasingly In terms of Mental health Many people May not necessarily Believe in any Particular higher reality But they find If I practise some meditation I seem to become calmer I seem to Become more centred More grounded Can face Emotional turbulence With greater stillness I travel across the world And Especially Silicon Valley There are many companies Which invite monks To give talks And In sales force They have a whole Floor for mindfulness meditation And during office hours If an employee Feels stressed He can go and Meditate Other places also Are increasingly Having things like that The idea is It is not that Company sales force Or Intel Or whatever They believe in The idea of a soul Or they believe in The idea of a divine For them The thing is Two things The productivity And the health costs Health insurance So they find They find That If our Employees Do something like meditation Do practise some Mindfulness Then They Are able to be More productive And their health Overall seems to be better So there is Some pragmatic effect Which is being Increasingly seen So mental health Is improved And even There are Indications of Physical health Being improved Now yoga is becoming Increasingly popular And Now There is some amount Of study And scientific research About how yoga benefits The body But It is not a Very extensive Body of Research about How a particular Asana Can lead to a particular Healing effect But the Experience of people Itself is so strong This works And It is being adopted Very widely So The thing is That If we are looking From pragmatic perspective The invisible Has visible Effects Now those visible Effects Are also being More and more Indicated For example Through brain science Now through neural imaging When Studies of people Who do meditation Are done Find that In the Brain The crosstalk The neural crosstalk That causes distractions That Substantially Decreases Among people Who meditate So There are some Visible Effects Now we can say Brain states are not visible But at least The brain images The images are To some extent visible So the invisible Effects the visible So there are Some of these Broad similarities Between Science and Spirituality Both are the two dimensions To them Both propose That there is an Invisible reality And the invisible reality Affects the visible In ways We can see And in ways That can benefit us Now We will go to second part What is the second part Anyone remembers? That is similarities Yes So now The dissimilarities Some of you Mentioned You mentioned already That is It is Firstly In the domain The domain Of study So science Is the study Of matter Spirituality Is the study Of What matters Science Is the study of matter Spirituality Is the study Of what matters Now what is Really important In life What counts If you study The Bhagavad Gita Arjuna had At that time His version of technology Now he Was expert in archery So he did not Study the Bhagavad Gita To get a We did not Seek the wisdom Of the Bhagavad Gita From Krishna To get a better Understanding of archery When he had to Fight A war Against his relatives He wanted To know What really Matters in life What Is important So spirituality Is the study Of what matters There is another Sacred book The Srimad Bhagavatam There a king Is cursed to die In seven days And then he wants To know Okay if I have only Seven days remaining What should I be doing What really Matters in life Now when we say The study of what Matters We may say Spirituality is simply The study of spirit But it is not That simple It is the study Of what matters Now At one level We can say Things Matter You know I need food To survive We need a home To live in We need clothes To wear So things matter And that is Definitely true And Science Works Through technology To improve things Now In many ways Technology Has dramatically Transformed the world Around us And The amount of Improvement Of physical things Is sensational We have an Extraordinary level Of comforts And utilities Facilities Conveniences We are We have a lot Of comforts At the same time Somehow We have not Become happier One of the promises Spoken And unspoken Of science And technology Was that It will make us happier The more We progress Through science and technology The more things Become better Our life Will become better But what we Have found is That things Do matter However Thoughts Matter Even more And somehow While our Physical facilities Have improved Through the advances Through the advancement Of science and technology Somehow Our mental health Has not improved Now I am not Saying here that Science and technology Are responsible For the Non-improvement Or the degradation Of mental health I am just saying that Two did not happen together So the Irony is that Because Mental health Has not improved Proportionately Rather it has Gone down So what has Happened is Distress Misery Has increased So the Result of this is This is the irony Of our times That we Are Today Comfortably Miserable We are Comfortably Miserable We may be living In an AC house But we may be In anxiety We may be sweating Not because It is cold But because We are in stress So this is There seems to be Something missing Over here So over A period of time We started Realising That Improving things Is important But More important Than our things Are our thoughts Our thoughts Matter Even more I may be Eating delicious Food But If while Eating delicious Food I am thinking About how Someone has Hurt me Or I may be Eating delicious Food And I am thinking Why did the server Give that person A bigger helping Than they gave me Then Although the food That I have Is delicious But I won’t taste it Somebody might be Tasting A sweet delicacy But it may taste Like sand to them Our experience Is determined Not just by things That we have It’s also by the thoughts That we have So The domain Of spirituality Is The study of what matters Now You could say The thoughts matter More than the things And spirituality Is about Improving The quality of our thoughts See there is The standard of living That is a Standard parameter Of Progress Yes I was living in a smaller house Now I am living in a bigger house I was driving a small car Now I am going to drive a bigger car The standard of living And it’s important to improve that But What matters is Our standard Of longing What am I longing for In my life Somebody Can be wealthy And still Be needy If they are wealthy And they are craving Oh that person has more wealth than me I have got a mansion But that person has got a bigger mansion Then If their If their standard of longing Is such that That can keep them They may be wealthy And yet they may be needy So If our desires If our emotions If our thoughts All that happens in our inner world That is misdirected That is disharmonious Then what we do In terms of improving The things with us That is not really going to make That much of a difference So in terms of domain It is Spirituality is Okay what really matters for me And slowly We start going inward So we start with The thoughts matter But then We go deeper And it is the thinker That matters So What do I mean by thoughts matters Meditation as I said Is becoming increasingly Popular Or at least increasingly Appreciated Because Of Its beneficial effects But there is A reductionistic approach That can be used for everything So For example I said earlier that the The brain states That result When there is meditation Are Indicative of a calm mind Of a mind with Neurones and the synapses All the firing is red right The firing is happening in such a way That the person’s Focus is more So Now There have been attempts Have any of you heard of A meditation helmet No So what is What the researchers Are trying to do is Multi million dollar grants Are being given for this That Can We put on a helmet And that helmet has Electrical Probes And electrical Circuitry going on Current going on And that will stimulate Our brain in such a way That it will replicate The state of meditation And that way Without going through The process of discipline And focussing We can get our brain Into a meditative state So See There is There is a Fundamental problem With this approach The problem is That we say often Put the cart Before the horse The idea is That there is Cause and there is effect So what is happening Over here is That When we talk about Meditation Before that When we talk about Emotions Then As science is advancing We are beginning to Realise more and more That the world Of science The world Of science And the world We Live In And for They are not the same They overlap But there is a Significant difference The world we live In and for Is the world of Experience We want to experience Love We want to experience Joy We want to experience Connectedness Belonging We want to experience These things But None of these Actually fit Very neatly Into the world of science Let’s start With something simple We all want to Eat good food Now We want to Experience Taste But with All the advancement Of science We cannot Make a Tastometer Science can advance Remarkably Science can tell us What are the Ingredients Within this Particular Particular Food item With extreme Precision But Taste Is an Experience We can’t Replicate that We can’t Reduce that To a device Sensing it Or for that matter Medical science Is advanced Incredibly now One of the Purpose of Medical science Is To help People Manage their Pain Or hopefully Remove the Pain But with all Our scientific Advancement We cannot Have a Panometer Science can Tell us Maybe through Neural scans Or through X-ray Okay your Bone is Usually Misaligned You must Feel a lot Of pain But how much Is the pain We can say On a scale Of 10 How much Do you feel Is your pain 1, 2, 5, 7, 8 And whatever But that Says again Subjective We are Asking the Person On a scale Of 10 How much Is the pain But there Is no Objective Parameter To measure Pain Now Nowadays Relationships Are becoming So unstable Causes People a lot Of vulnerability And insecurity How There is Every Millennia Or every Century People have Had different Fears In the Current century Among the Top 10 Fears of people Two fears Have come up One is the Fear of Terrorists And the Other is the Fear of Rejection That we Are into Relationships With other Persons Rejects Abandonments Now When we Want to Have a Relationship With other Person We would like To know Does this Person really Care for me Or not Say a Boy proposes To a Girl You know I love You Please marry Me Girls Wait a Minute I will Take out A love Metre You Know I will Put it On your Heart Let me See Do you Really Love Me Now Love Is one Of the Most Fundamental Experiences That we All Seek We all Want to Love And be Loved But That Is Experience Itself Is Subjective And all Sensory Experience Leave alone Any kind Of Spiritual Experience Taste Fragrance All These Are Subjective We Can’t Really Measure Them So The World Of Science To The Extent We Think It Is Objective There Is A Problem Over There So If We Look At It From This Perspective I Was Talking About The Standard Of Longing Going From Things To Thoughts Now We Can Say We Look For Experience And Things Give Us Experience But Still Experience Is A Reality In Itself Which Is A Reality In Itself So When I Was Talking About The Meditation Helmet What We Are Trying To Do Is Meditation Is An Experience So It’S Like There Is A The Brain States Are There Now Beyond The Brain States There Is The Experience That We Have Now The Experience Leads To The Brain States But When We Are Trying To Have Something Like A Meditation Helmet What Is The Underlying Assumption Is That If We Can Replicate The Brain States The Brain States Themselves The Are The Experience That If You Just Get The Brain States You Get The Experience But It’S Not That Simple It’S Say That When We When When A Young Mother Sees Her Small Baby And She Feels A Upspring Of Love For That Baby Now Is That Love Just The Secretion Of Some Chemical In The Brain Gradually We Can Move From Things To Thoughts And From Thoughts The Thinker of those thoughts. And that is how spirituality takes us toward spiritual reality.
So things are matter or we can say gross matter. Thoughts are associated with the mind. The thinker is associated with the spiritual side of us, the soul.
So the study of what matters gradually takes us towards spiritual reality, towards the soul. And it can take us ultimately towards divinity. That is not what I will go into right now.
But spirituality is the study of what matters. And for us, when we study science, there is enormous intelligence and creativity that has been exercised by scientists. And as I said, we have got phenomenal insights into the working of the universe, as well as technology, which has brought phenomenal gifts.
But the point is, in many ways, has the advancement of science helped us to become happy? It does seem that that has not really happened. It has made things convenient, it has made things comfortable. But convenience and comfort has not necessarily translated into happiness or wellness.
So in terms of spirituality, the domain becomes different because we move towards what matters. Now there is a notion that science deals with facts and spirituality deals with feelings. And then it deals with faith ultimately.
So science deals with facts and logic or reason. Science deals with rationality and spirituality deals with feelings and faith. While it might be tempting to make this kind of categorisation, reality is not that simple.
Science just deals with facts and reason, but science also involves faith. Now faith is involved at many levels. I will just talk at three main levels over here.
The first level that faith is involved is that when we propose a theory, we observe something, and then we propose a theory. Okay, this observation can be explained through this pattern. Now you can say theory can be proven or disproven.
That’s true. But when we propose a theory, that’s an act of faith. So now some theories, for example, the Large Hadron Collider was developed to discover what was called the particle and some other things.
Now sometimes to even verify a particular theory might require an experimental setup that requires millions and billions of dollars. So then that theory, even when we want to experiment it, it’s an act of faith. So when we postulate a theory, and then we conduct an experiment, we create a setup for the experiment.
So all this requires faith. Because the postulating theory is just an intellectual idea. But then setting up an experiment requires cost.
There is an exercise of faith over there. Then after that, as science has advanced, what has happened is we started realising that there is an invisible reality. And the invisible reality matters.
So science requires a fundamental faith that our senses are trustworthy. Because science begins with observation, science functions through experiments. But for making observations, for dealing with experiments, we have to assume that what our senses are telling us correlates with reality.
Now, are our senses trustworthy? We all know that there are areas where our senses mislead us. We have example of mirages, which is a very common example. But we have example of refraction.
And there’s so many other areas where science itself tells us that our senses are trustworthy. So the assumption that our senses give us, they are reliable tools for understanding reality. So it’s an act of faith.
We may say that faith is vindicated because, you know, if I show that you are here, and I go and slap you, you slap me back, you are real. I can conclude that. So the idea is that we can say that there are ways in which that faith can be proven.
But how far can we go? You know that, actually speaking, there are some things which I can see you, I can verify that you are there. But when we know, we look above and we see the sky. Now we know there’s nothing like a sky.
So how do we know that? We know through our intelligence. But then we are making experiments. So we may prove through the scientific progress, which observations from our senses are not reliable, and which are reliable.
But underlying doing all this is the assumption that the senses are real. Senses are reliable. This is, in philosophy, this is called the doctrine of realism.
Realism means what our first of all, there is a reality out there, and our senses can give us perception of the reality. Now, another big article of faith in science is uniformism. Uniformism is the idea that the laws of nature that we infer based on our observations, they apply across space and across time.
The same laws will apply in the Andromeda galaxy, or they apply in the far reaches of the universe, or the same laws will apply at the start of the universe, however, the universe started. Now, of course, we know whatever theory, Big Bang or whatever variant of it we use, there were the laws of time, laws of the universe applicable at the same time, or when did they start to be applied. So, uniformism is not a theory that we can either prove or disprove.
Because unless we go to the farthest reaches of the galaxy, and we do similar experiments over there, how do we know that? So, that’s why especially when science starts going towards the question of origins, it becomes a little more tenuous. It’s claims because we are making a lot of assumptions over there, about how things came about. We are assuming that these laws apply at that time, that space.
So, science also requires faith. This does not mean that science is not a rational endeavour. Definitely rationality is there.
But faith is required in science. Now, spirituality is about feelings and faith. But that does not mean spirituality.
The philosophy aspect of spirituality often has reason within it. That if we postulate that there is an invisible reality called the soul, there is an ultimate reality called the divine or God, there are rational arguments to be made. Now those rational arguments, somebody might refute them, whether they are irrefutable, that’s a different question.
But it is not that the spiritual domain is only a matter of faith. There is rationality in it. So, for example, if we practise meditation and we experience a benefit from it, when we experience a benefit, there is a rational explanation to it in the spiritual domain.
The rational explanation is that, that there is a changing world around us and there is an unchanging core within us. So, as long as we focus on the changing, our mind stays restless. We become agitated.
But meditation connects us with that which is unchanging. And when we connect with the unchanging, then we calm down. Like, if I am in an ocean, if I am an ocean, there are continuous waves over there.
And I am swimming over there. With the waves, I will move up and down. Now, if there are giant tsunami-like waves, then I will be tossed up and down.
Now, small waves, I can keep myself calm. I can keep myself steady among small waves. But huge waves, I cannot keep myself calm.
So, what spirituality tells us is that at such times, we cannot stop the waves. But there can be an anchor. And if we hold on to the anchor, then we can stay steady.
So, the anchor that enables us to hold on to that is meditation. So, the point I am making is spirituality has rational explanations. So, this does not mean, of course, see spirituality has two aspects to it.
There is a rational aspect to spirituality and there is a mystical aspect to spirituality. But some, so mystical means there are things which are sometimes not easily explainable by rationality. But all of spirituality is not simply about the mystical.
Oh, I saw some light and I felt like this and I felt like that. There are some experiences, mystical states of awareness and all that. But there is a rational side to spirituality also.
It is quite prominent. It is not at all insignificant. So, to simply say that spirituality is about our faith and feelings, it is not that simple.
There is spirituality which talks about rationality. And yes, there are, so I make two last points over here, that there is religion and there is spirituality. So, we are talking here about the last dissimilarity and finally I will talk about the harmonisation.
So, quite often for people, some people use the word spirituality and religion almost interchangeably. But some people make a categorical difference between the two. Have any of you heard this word SBNR? SBNR? No.
Spiritual but not religious. So, there is a large demographic of people who want to distance themselves from religion. I want to be spiritual.
So, now at one level, words have certain senses to them. Now whenever we talk about words, they have denotations. Denotations means this is what they mean.
But they also have connotations. Connotations is what they symbolise. The mood, the tone that they bring.
Some words have a negative connotation. And if they have negative connotation, then we do not want to use that word. Some words may have a racist connotation.
Some words may have sexist connotation. So, then such words, we try to avoid them. So, religion has to some extent in some circles acquired a negative connotation.
So, the idea is that for many people, spirituality is about openness. I want to be open to new experiences. I want to experience something higher, something deeper in my life.
For many people, for them, religion seems to be about narrowness, narrow mindedness. This is what you should believe. This is what you should do.
And that is all there is to it. So, often people think that religion leads to fanaticism. It leads to extremism, radicalism.
It leads to violence. In contrast, the idea is if you become more spiritual, then you become more compassionate. You become more forgiving.
You become more kind. So, for many people, spirituality and religion, they seem to be quite different. That is why they say I want to be spiritual, but not religious.
Now, the thing is that when I said spirituality has two aspects to it, anyone remember the two aspects? Philosophy and practise. Now, when we talk about the practise, over time, this practise becomes systematised. And codified.
So, then when it becomes systematised and codified, that becomes a religion. That basically, we were, okay, I want to experience something higher. Okay, philosophy tells me there is some higher state of awareness.
There is some inner state of inner peace, which can be had by connecting with spiritual reality. And there are some practises by which you can do it. So, over a period of time, those practises tend to become systematised.
Okay, you do this like this, you do this like this, you do this like this. These are all meant to foster that higher awareness, foster the raising of our consciousness towards the spirituality. But over a period of time, as religion becomes codified, people tend to get caught in the externals.
It becomes externalised. That means people start going through the motions of doing the practises, but they forget why they are doing the practise or they neglect. And that is when religion starts becoming ritualistic.
Religion starts becoming mechanical. Then, what happens is, spirituality is meant to be about improving. Improving is improving our thoughts, changing our inner world.
But when religion becomes externalised, it becomes about proving, not improving. Proving my God is better than your God, my faith is greater than your faith. And this is where it starts becoming not just divergent, but almost opposite, goes in opposite directions.
However, if we consider religion essentially to be set of systematised practises. So, and whatever practises we follow to try to reach a spiritual level, that is our religion. So, in that sense, we can say that we want to be spiritual and religion is the way to be spiritual, is the path for becoming spiritual.
Now, somebody may say, I do not want to associate with this religion or that religion or something like that. That is fair enough. But the idea is, the practises that enable us to rise to the spiritual level, they are called in certain traditions as religion.
Now, that word religion can acquire negative connotation. But ultimately, religion, what is it? It is a set of practises. Now, sometimes the practises may become so intricate that their connection with a higher state of awareness may be lost.
You have to dress in this way and you have to do this and you have to cook in this way. If the whole point of connecting them with a pathway to higher awareness is lost, then it just becomes very self-centred or self-obsessive. And then it gets lost, the purpose gets lost.
So, this is something similar to somebody is doing experiments, but they do not even know why they are doing experiments. Sometimes there is a huge project with hundreds of thousands of people and there is a lab assistant, lab technician. They are doing some experiment, but what is the theory? How exactly is this experiment contributing the theory? They may not even know about it.
And they are just doing certain things. Now, if somebody is using those experiments, then it could be of some use. But for that person, okay, just mix this, move this, touch this, watch this, note this.
They may not even have understanding what is happening. So, it is said experiments can become divorced from the bigger picture of the theory. So, like that, religion can sometimes become divorced from the higher spiritual purpose.
So, the last point is, I will keep it brief, can we have a harmony of both of them? Now, if we see, as I started with, both are part of the human search for understanding. Then what we can do? We can use science to improve our outer world. And we can use spirituality to improve our inner world.
Now, Martin Luther King put his finger very astutely on how science and spirituality interact or fail to interact. He says that our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.
So, the idea is that our outer power has increased, but our inner power has not increased proportionately. And that can lead to a very dangerous situation. But Carl Jung is a prominent psychologist.
He said that the more outer power we get, the more inner power we need. We need that inner power so that we can use that outer power properly. Technology is advancing enormously now.
Now, with AI coming up, how the future workspace will be, it’s not very easily predictable. But the more outer power we get. In America, everybody has a legal right to have guns, even very advanced guns.
The more outer power you get, the more inner power you need to be able to use that outer power properly. Now, with social media, we are connected with anyone and everyone in the world. Now, if I have a mouthpiece, I can spread information or misinformation all over the world.
Now, if I hear some gossip. Now, gossip happens when two conditions meet. Gossip happens when we hear something we like about someone we don’t like.
We hear something we like about someone we don’t like. And then what happens is, in public interest, I am going to tell this to everyone. This person pretends to be like this, but this is their dark reality.
Now, the gossip may be completely untrue. But if we have a social media account and we can reach a lot of people, now one gossip can spread rapidly and it can ruin a person’s life. So, technology has given a lot of power externally.
The more outer power we get through technology, the more inner power we need through spirituality. Otherwise, we can very easily get lost. So, we always look for some entertainment.
But now, with technology, there is so much entertainment available that a person can spend their entire life merely in entertainment. So, do we want to waste our life on that? Now, humans always were looking for intoxication. That’s just a way to escape.
But now, through technology, not only are we taking natural drugs, but we are chemically aggravating the effects of those drugs. And then, if we do not have enough discipline, then there can be an increasingly severe drug epidemic. It is there in America and many parts of the world.
India also, in some states, is far more acute than others. So, the more outer power we get, the more inner power we need. So, that is where outer power technology is already providing us through science.
Science and technology are providing us. Outer power we are getting, but inner power we need. So, if we understand that both of these play a part in my life.
So, through scientific and technological growth, we can gain more outer power. Through spiritual growth, we can gain inner power. And if we can get both kinds of power, through science, we can make the outer world better.
Through spirituality, we can make our inner world better. If both our inner and outer world become better, we hope that there will be an era of peace and prosperity. Now, prosperity is about the outer world.
Peace is about the inner world. So, we can bring both science and spirituality together by recognising that both dimensions of our life are important and both need to grow together. So, Arjuna was a great archer.
He had developed his external outer side, but through the knowledge of the Bhagavad Gita, he developed his internal side also. And thus, he was able to attain a victory that actually ended up doing some substantial good for the world. And the same opportunity is there for us also.
So, I will summarise. I discussed three main points. We are talking about science and spirituality and the relationship between them.
So, first, we started with a broad understanding of the dynamics of their relationships. Then I focused on the similarities. The similarities is that science has theory and experiment and spirituality has philosophy and practise.
So, there are similarities in the sense, there is an intellectual component to it and there is a practical component to it. So, that is similarity. And then we also discussed about how both have the idea that the visible is there, but the invisible is more important.
Now, this might seem counterintuitive in science, but we discussed how through various ideas, the laws are there which are more important in science, not just the raw facts or the observations. Then we talked about the whole idea of dark matter that is there. Then we also discussed that how in the history of science, there is this tension between empiricism and rationalism.
So, which is more important? Rationalism focusses more on the invisible, the principles that organise the universe. So, now that, of course, is a postulate of spirituality. Invisible reality is much more important than visible.
Then we talked about how the invisible impacts the visible. So, in science, it is through technology that we get tangible benefits. In spirituality, it is through our inner world getting improved.
We talked about pragmatic spirituality. Say, meditation has tangible benefits which people experience, people feel. So, there is a tangible effect of pragmatic spirituality also.
So, we can say the result of it is wellness. So, then we talked about the dissimilarities. So, dissimilarity primarily it was in the domain.
So, science is the study of matter and spirituality is the study of what matters. And in the idea of what matters, we went from things to thoughts. We discussed how although science has provided us comforts, but still, unfortunately, there are miseries.
And that is why we are in the paradox of incomfortably visible. Then we can go beyond the thoughts to the thinker. The thoughts do not just come from outer things, they come from the inner thinker.
The paradox of meditation does not really help people make meditation. Why? Because it is not just outer stimuli that is producing those. There is a thinker inside.
In this connection, I discussed how there is the world of science and the world we live in and for. These overlap, but there are significant divergent areas that we consider pain or taste or love. None of these can be measured.
So, these are very important for us. These are the world of experience. And this experience is something which spirituality says it can enhance.
Spirituality can provide us a richer, a higher experience. So, spirituality can provide us a better experience. But then here we discuss the difference between spirituality and religion.
For many people, they may have had some negative experience with religion. They might be some religious people are intolerant or they are very dogmatic. So, we discussed about how they are different in the sense that while spirituality, the practise that is involved in spirituality, when it becomes codified, when it becomes systematised, it becomes religion.
But sometimes when it is systematised, what happens over a period of time is, it becomes externalised. And then it’s like somebody doing an experiment without knowing what the experiment is doing. So, in spirituality, the focus is on improving.
But in religion, the focus often becomes on proving. And that’s where religion doesn’t give us better experience, religion actually leaves us with a bitter taste, a bad experience. But that is not intrinsic to religion.
That is because the purpose of religion has been forgotten. The last part I talked about is the harmony. So, it’s not so much that what science teaches and what spirituality teaches, how to harmonise that.
We are talking about how in our human search, how we can harmonise that. So, science is providing us outer power through technology. Spirituality can provide us inner power.
So, we are having outer power to a phenomenal degree now. We all have our devices and the devices can cause vices. If we do not have inner power, we can get addicted to our devices.
So, the more outer power we have, either we can get completely distracted or we can develop inner power. So, if both of them can come together, then inner outer power can bring prosperity, inner power can bring peace. And thus we can try to bring about a harmony at our individual level and through that we can move towards a harmony at a collective level.
Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. So, do we have time for questions? Does anyone have any questions or comments? Can you please elaborate more on meditation and what is actually the state of meditation, state of being when we are meditating? I do not know how to meditate.
Okay. So, what is meditation? You can talk about meditation in two broad dimensions of it. It is the state of mind and then there is the focus of the mind.
The two distinct dimensions. That is, now what is the mind focused on and what state results in the mind because of the focus. So, now when science studies meditation, it cannot study the focus of the mind.
If somebody is chanting some mantras and they are focussing on the divine as they have conceived in their tradition, the focus of the mind is beyond the scope of science, isn’t it? Whether that exists, whether it is real, that we cannot perceive. But science can study the state of the mind. If this person is becoming peaceful, the areas of the brain which indicate peace, which indicate calmness, indicate happiness, they are being activated.
So, now many people, so depending on the tradition that a person follows, the focus of the mind may be on different things. Some people practise silent meditation. So, they just try to become silent.
Some people practise meditation, sonic meditation, use some sound, we use the Hare Krishna mantra. So, there are, the object of meditation may vary. So, broadly speaking, meditation involves two states.
If you focus on the state, two stages it involves. So, if this is my consciousness, first the object of meditation that is there. Say, if we are chanting a mantra.
Now, first we give entrance. Whatever my mind is, my consciousness is filled with a hundred things. Oh, I have to do this work, I have to do that, I have to do that.
But we give entrance. That means we let that particular sound enter into our mind. If we are doing this, it becomes one among many stimuli in our mind.
But at least at the first stage, this is the stage, you can say, of attention. We consciously try to focus. But as we start focussing, what happens is, if this is my consciousness, that object of meditation that is there, that starts becoming bigger and bigger and bigger.
So, eventually, it’s like that object of meditation, I realise it is far bigger than me. And then it is, I gain entrance, I gain entrance into that higher reality. And that is the state of absorption.
At the highest level, this is called a Samadhi. So, where in that state of absorption, we feel as if we are transported to a different place. We feel as if we are no longer where we are physically.
So, meditation begins with attention. Attention means we give entrance to the object of meditation. But as we keep giving attention, gradually that object starts becoming bigger, bigger, bigger, so that it becomes bigger than our consciousness.
And then our consciousness becomes immersed in it, becomes sheltered in it, becomes absorbed in it. So, now this journey from attention to absorption, this is the process of meditation. We start with attention and go towards absorption.
Now, when we do regular practise of meditation, then this journey starts becoming faster and easier. But it is not a linear journey. That is, there can be breaks, there can be disruptions because sometimes we are not able to pay attention.
We pay attention for some time, but it is not consistent. So, it is not that while meditation is the experience we all can have, it is not literally like a linearly replicable scientific experiment because our mind goes through many different states. But essentially, start with spending some time giving attention to an object that is connected with higher reality.
So, mantras are special spiritual sounds that are attuned to higher divine realities. So, by that mantra, giving it entrance into our consciousness, gradually we gain entrance. And even if for, say if you are meditating for 15 minutes, 10 minutes, whatever time, even for a few moments, if we gain an experience that there is a bigger reality and I am linked with that bigger reality, that can give us a sense of calmness that lasts throughout the day.
Some days that moment will last for a longer time, that moment of immersion. Someday, just for a few moments, but that does not matter. Just by practise, through attention, we can go towards absorption.
Sir, can you please talk a bit about Purushartha? Sir, we always are, I mean as students we are confused because so we first think about getting a good job, which would give us good salary, so we become sick or should we think about creating new technology, which might not give us any financial gain in the short term, but we might end up creating something good for the general humanity. And that is where the idea of Ardha or Karma comes in my understanding. So, if you can please talk about that.
So, see we are all meaning seekers. Sometimes it is said we are pleasure seekers, but actually that is an oversimplification. We all want pleasure, but we want meaningful pleasure.
Sometimes people ask, why are young people or why are people spending so much time on their devices? I think the question we should be asking is, when the devices have so many entertaining things, why are people not spending all their time on devices? When there is so much easy pleasure available, why is anybody doing anything other than seeking that pleasure? Because pleasure is not enough for us. We want something meaningful. Just watching this TikTok, watching this Instagram video, watching this YouTube shot, clicking on this, like, dislike, comment, that does not have meaning.
So, we are pleasure seekers, but more than that, we are meaning seekers. And meaning is what refers to Ardha. So, Purush Ardha is for a human being, what is the source of meaning.
So, the Ardha, it is like a ladder. We all, for a small child, the Ardha, the meaning is, I want my mother’s milk. As a child grows, I want toys.
As a child grows further, I want to be better than other kids at sports. Child grows further, okay, I want to study and get good marks. So, our conception of Ardha also keeps arising upwards.
So, yes, initially somebody may seek wealth. So, broadly speaking, if you consider Ardha and Kama, so now Ardha can refer at one level to meaning at the generic level. Now, within the four Purush Ardhas, Ardha and Kama, here Ardha refers to wealth.
Now, wealth is also a source of meaning for people. You know, when, say, for many people, their self-esteem, their self-worth is connected with their net worth. So, now, our net worth should not be the sole basis of our self-worth, but it is related.
So, Ardha, in the sense of money, is also a source of Ardha, meaning for us. Now, Kama can refer to desire. Desire is generally for pleasure.
Now, we could say that we seek Ardha for Kama. We seek wealth so that we can get pleasure. But wealth can be seen as resources and they can be used for various purposes and pleasure can be got in different ways.
So, the idea is that Kama broadly means satisfaction of desire. So, somebody can use Ardha to just get a big house and live a life of luxury. And that’s how they try to fulfil their Kama.
Somebody else can use Ardha, okay, I want to create a charitable charity. I want to take care of people. And their Kama, they try to satisfy in that way.
So, Kama can be seen as lust, but Kama can be broadly seen as desire. And which desires, that’s what I talked about. See, Ardha is the standard of living.
Kama is the standard of longing. If my Kama is my desires are very self-centred, then I’m always looking for more to get from the world. That will always keep me in a state of dissatisfaction.
So, on the other hand, if my Kama, my desire, my desire could be that I get things, it could be by possession, it could be for gratification, or my Kama could be for contribution. I want to make a difference. I want to contribute to others lives, to add some value.
So, our Kama can also get gradually elevated. So, for us, when we are seeking Purushartha, we are seeking meaning in our life. So, generally, meaning, it can be at a spiritual level, and it can be at a material level.
So, at a spiritual level, the meaning comes through our connection with the divine, with the spiritual, ultimately with the divine. That for us, as we slowly and steadily start connecting with the divine, we understand that, yes, I don’t need all the things of the world for my own satisfaction, for making myself feel good. I can get a sense of innate satisfaction.
And then our material sense of meaning, it can best come through contribution. See, if somebody is a doctor, medicine can be a noble profession. But if a doctor is in that profession, primarily for making money.
Now, of course, they spend a lot of money, they put a lot of effort, they will, for getting the education, they will want money. But if a doctor has only the values, only possession and no contribution, and I want money, but I don’t care for the patients, then that doctor will be actually a dangerous person. So, over a period of time, it is that we can actually, if we are not internally needy, then we can contribute.
If we are internally needy, then what will happen is, we will be always concerned about what I am getting. Possession will be our focus. That’s why the spiritual and material artha or the meaning that we seek, they don’t have to go in opposite direction.
In fact, if we have a strong spiritual grounding, if we are internally satisfied, then what we do in the outer world can be more in a mood of contribution. I can do things that make a difference, even if they are not necessarily going to get me recognition or remuneration in a huge way. But if I don’t have that spiritual satisfaction, then whatever I do, it will be with a very strong craving for recognition, for remuneration, and the contribution will get minimised.
So, we spend a certain amount of time on our spiritual growth through practises like meditation. And then with that grounding, with that steadiness that we get, then we can explore outwards. What are the abilities that I have? What are the interests that I have? And how can I start making contribution? That will become clearer.
Most people think that I should get outer meaning, and then I look for inner meaning. That can happen, but it’s an unnecessary troublesome journey. Because when you start seeking outer pleasure or outer meaning alone, it just becomes like an endless thing.
Nothing external can fill an inner vacuum. So, that’s why people who start with good intentions also, sometimes they end up becoming possessive and manipulative. There is a social critic, he said that every noble cause, it starts as something like a charity.
Then it becomes a business. And then it becomes a racket. So, now this doesn’t have to happen.
But it can happen if a person who is doing this, they may have good intentions. But if they do not have inner spiritual foundation, then their good intention will get sabotaged, will get subverted. Okay.
Thank you. One question. Sorry, last question.
In the section where you are telling that science also has to be based upon faith. I want to say based upon, that is faith has a significant role in science. So, but in science itself we have to have an empiric understanding of this idea that in the empiric we can say that we use our senses and they may not be trusted.
But in rational we can say that they are all based upon math and logic and things like that. These are not so much based upon senses. Like one plus one will always be two only.
That is the way we perceive it. So, in that sense it is an empirical thing itself based upon senses. We can say it may be false or it may be unreliable.
But in case of rationalism, we will say that it is not based upon senses. It is possible. But there are some serious questions about rationalism also.
That how much does a theory have to ultimately relate with reality as we experience it. See, as again Einstein has said something like this that the more a theory is mathematically either sound or beautiful or rigorous or whatever, the more a theory is mathematically sound, the less it becomes connected to reality as we experience it. The more this theory is connected to reality, the less it remains mathematically sound.
Now, what he meant by that is that, at least this is how I understand it, is that mathematics in real life, there are many things which correlate with mathematics and that is amazing. The extent of things in real life is correlated with mathematics. But there are a lot of things that do not correlate with mathematics.
So, as much of the reality that we have, like we talk about emotions, they are not quantifiable. They are an important part of our life. So, when you talk about rationality in logic, there is a valid argument and there is a, I do not, the words used are different arguments.
There is a sound argument. Sometimes an argument can be valid. Valid means that from point A to point B, it is a logical step.
It is considered a right argument. But for the argument to be sound or you can use the word true, A has to be true. If A then B. So, the link between A and B is what is established by logic.
So, that link may be valid. But whether A itself is valid, that is a question. So, rationality involves some theorising, which is based on a correlation between cause and effect, between point A and point B. A law, what is essentially a law? A law is a basically a link between say action, between cause and effect.
But this linking between cause and effect, this itself requires some starting conditions. So, if those starting conditions are not there, then will those, that particular cause and effect connection work? So, like when you talk about uniformism, that is a theory. The theory is based on faith, that what I observe over here is true over here will be true everywhere else.
So, if that particular starting assumption condition is there, then it is true. But if that starting condition is not there, then so irrationalism also requires faith. Because when we make a rational argument, we are postulating a link between cause and effect.
But we are assuming that the cause is in a particular starting condition at that particular point. Do we really know that? That is an article of faith, which may be valid or may not be valid. There are other ways in which rationalism also requires faith.
But the point is that science ultimately is not only rational. So, even if you were to argue that the element of faith is only in the empirical aspect, because science involves the empirical undoubtedly. So, faith is involved in science.
But there is no science which is totally rational and without any empirical element at all. Thank you. So, if you would pardon me.
Thank you so much for your participation. Hare Krishna.