Spiritualizing our relationships 1 – How the modes turn good intentions into not-so-good actions

[Seminar at Alachua, Florida, USA]

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna.
I thank all of you for coming today morning. And I seek the blessings of all the senior Vaishnavas to glorify the Lord. So, I will speak on this topic of spiritualising our relationships.
So, I will be taking this in four parts. I will just do an overview of what we will be doing in the four sessions. You are operating the powerpoint? Yes.
Please, go ahead. So, when we are going to spiritualise relationship, what can we do? Ultimately, in any relationship, we can’t control the other person. What we can do is, what is in our control, if you want to spiritualise, is that we can change ourselves in a way that inspires the other person to change.
So, for this purpose, there are three aspects. One could be that if there is a relationship, if there is a relationship between us and others, am I audible to everyone behind? Yeah. So, if there is a relationship between me and others, how do I see the other person? How do I see my role in the relationship? And how do I act in the relationship? These are things which I can change.
How I see the other person? Sometimes we have negative conceptions about the person. This person is incorrigible. This person is just like this.
They are never going to change. Can I just use the other mic? This is not staying. So, was this the same one we had used last time? Yes.
Same one. You want to try the other ear? Like this? Let us sit like this. Hare Krishna.
Sure, you can do what you want. You can put the glass on top of this. Is it audible from here? Yes.
Okay, good. Thank you. So, these three things are what we can change.
How we look at the other person. If we have a negative attitude towards them, if we think that they are never going to change or become better, then that attitude will come out in the relationship. Sometimes, each relationship has its own dynamic, but we misconstrue our position, our role, how much influence we have in that relationship.
And that can disrupt the relationship also. So, we can change that. And how are we acting in that relationship? So, basically, three sessions we will have.
The second will be on changing our vision with spiritual understanding of the other person. The third will be about the second part. The fourth will be about changing our input.
That will be in terms of practical actions that we could do. But before we do this, I am going to talk about the three modes of material nature and how they affect our functioning with respect to these three things. can you go ahead please? I think two or three slides are missing.
Go behind. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead.
So, how the modes affect our relationships. In every relationship, there is a reciprocation in which there is some expectation from the other person and there is our contribution to the relationship. So, now, sometimes when we try to spiritualise the relationship, and normally when we say, when Krishna enters the centre of relationship, the relationship becomes better.
But sometimes it may seem that the relationship is becoming more strained. So, why might this happen? Because if we consider any relationship there is some contribution, some expectation. Now, some people, they do very little and they demand a lot.
When that happens, then the relationship tends to become strained. And unfortunately, if we do not understand properly what spiritualising the relationship means, then what may happen when we ourselves become spiritual, our expectation from the other person starts increasing. You should do this also.
We have started practising our own spiritual life. So, a lot of our time, energy, emotion gets involved in our spirituality. So, our contribution in that relationship seems to go down.
So, from the other person’s perspective, whom we are trying to spiritualise in the relationship, the relationship may become strained because they feel that you are contributing less than earlier and now you are expecting more from me. I was in Delhi, with one devotee, Mataji and her daughter. So, this Mataji had become a devotee.
Her daughter is very intelligent, young professional. Teenage, she is becoming a professional. So, she was telling that after my mother has become a devotee, I feel as if I have to compete with Krishna for the attention of my mother.
The time which my mother had for me, now she doesn’t have for me. She has so many things to do in the temple and then she has so many services. So, I feel as if my mother is no longer available to me.
So, I was explaining how all of us have our needs, our inspirations, our motivations. You cannot see your mother simply as your mother. She is also a person and she has her inspirations, she has her needs.
So, she is available for you but when she discovers something which is important for her, then she will have to give time for that because that is her life and it is her relationship with Krishna. But from her perspective, what happens is the contribution of the relationship has gone down. Mother is no longer available enough.
And the other mother is also saying come to the temple, do this, do that, do that. So, when we try to spiritualise a relationship, the dynamic may work out that the relationship may become strained. However, this is not necessary that it has to happen like this.
Generally speaking, we talk about material consciousness and spiritual consciousness means that if Krishna is the centre, that is spiritual consciousness. Krishna is not there, that is material consciousness. That is true.
In practical terms, it can also mean something else. It can also mean when I see someone, that is material consciousness. And if I can think what can I do for this person, then that is spiritual consciousness.
So, what can I do for this person means, we try to have a service attitude. We are servants of Krishna and in our service to Krishna, we are also servants of the parts of Krishna. So, if when we start practising bhakti and we want to spiritualise our relationship, scriptures tell us that our relationships are incomplete unless we can deliver our dependents.
So, we may take that as a very great responsibility and then we may try to spiritualise the other person. But, what may happen in this process is, can you go ahead, that we may actually not be spiritualising others, we may just thinking, it’s a pseudo-spiritualization. We think that now that we have become devotees, we have a mandate to remake others.
According to our conception of what they should be. You should do this, you should do that, you should do that, you should not do this, you should not do that, you should not do that. Yes, we all need to change.
And others, if they are not yet devotees, naturally we would like them to become devotees. But, every person is an individual and they will have to chart their way towards Krishna. They have, we are a pathway or we are a medium for Krishna to act in their lives.
But they also have their relationship with Krishna. And what we are meant to do is not remake them in our idea, but rather help them discover what they are meant to be by Krishna’s plan, in his service. So, sometimes when we become spiritual, that may make us think that I have a mandate to control others.
You have to do this, you cannot do this. But this leads to people just becoming alienated. There is a atheist gag against Christianity.
It’s like a cheap joke, they say that. In the Bible it is said, in the beginning was the word and the word was God. So, the atheists say that in the beginning was the word and the word was no.
You can’t do this, you can’t do that, you can’t do that, you can’t do that. So, it can appear very restrictive. Shri Prabhupada in one lecture said that Bhakti is affirmative spirituality.
It is not restrictive or negative. It is what we are going to do positively in Krishna’s service. That is our stress.
So, sometimes when this happens that we just in trying to spiritualise others, we just put too much pressure on them. And then they get alienated from us. The intent of wanting to spiritualise others is good.
I met one Gurukul boy. He was a childhood devotee. But now he is not yet practising Bhakti.
He is a writer. So, he just became some friends. So, he was telling me throughout my childhood and youth, I felt burdened because my parents were disappointed that I was not the reincarnation of Prahlad Maharaj.
So, as devotees when we hear about scriptures, we naturally want our children, our family members also to become devotees. But everybody has their capacity. Everybody has their inclination.
Everybody is at their own level in their spiritual evolution. So, we want to help them. But that help should not come off as excessive pressurisation by which people get alienated.
So, let’s move forward now. So, sometimes we may force people to do some actions. You know, you should come to a temple.
You should do this. You should do that. You should do that.
And especially when people are under influence, we are able to force them. But devotion is not just action. It is also disposition.
Sometimes we may force somebody to do something and they may do it under pressure. But then if they are resenting it, then their disposition becomes hostile. And eventually when they have freedom, they will just go away completely.
So, we don’t want, we want them to do actions, no doubt. I am not in any way saying that we shouldn’t try to spiritualise our relationships or want other, we shouldn’t want our loved ones to come to Krishna. Definitely we want to.
But if we do not do it in a cautious and mature way, the result may be counterproductive. We may end up alienating people from Krishna. So, we want people to do the actions, but more important than actions is the disposition.
They are doing it resentfully, they will do it for some time and then they will give it up. So, now why did this happen? If our intent is to serve Krishna, intent is to get others to Krishna, which is very good, we could almost say pure devotional intention it is. Then why do things don’t work out? Why do sometimes things backfire? That’s because our intent gets filtered through the modes.
All of us are influenced by the modes. And whatever intention we may have, when it expresses itself as action, it is filtered by the modes. So, let’s understand what the modes are and then we will see how the modes affect our relationships.
So, broadly speaking, three modes refer to three behavioural types. If we consider, there is internal contemplation and there is external action. So, in the mode of goodness, there is first contemplation and then action.
In 14.11 Krishna says that sarva-dvāreṣu deheṣmin prakāśyam upajāyate jñānaṁ yadā tadā vidyād vivṛddhaṁ sattva-mittyutā He says the doors of the senses are illumined in the mode of goodness. So, if a door is dark, then who is coming in, who is going out, we can’t know. If the door is illumined, then we can say, oh, this person is a friend, this person is suspicious, maybe I should keep them out.
This person is dangerous, we just slam the door. So, if the door is illumined, we know what to take in, what to not take in, what to let out, what to not let out. I say, look before you leap.
In the mode of passion, on the other hand, there is lobha pravṛttir ārambha karmaṇā maśyama spruha rajasye tāni jāyante vivṛddhe bhara tarṣabha He says that, pravṛtti, there is action, zeal, just want to do something. I have to do this right now. So, first there is action and then there is contemplation.
I want to do this, what went wrong? Something else happened, some people speak to express their thoughts and some people speak to discover their thoughts. They speak and, I didn’t mean to say that, I’m sorry. So, that’s what happened to us.
In the modes, there is action before contemplation. That is the characteristic of the mode of passion. So, all of these, we are talking in terms of relationships, the intention may be good, but the good intention In the mode of ignorance, there is, aprakāśho apravṛttiśca pramādo moha eva ca tamasye tāni jāyante vivṛddhe kuru nandana There is neither proper contemplation nor proper action.
aprakāśho apravṛttiśca There is moha, there is simply illusion, imagination, maybe this can be like this, why is this person like this, if only I could have done like that. There is neither thinking properly nor acting properly. So, nowadays, people’s obsession with entertainment is indicative of the mode of ignorance.
Because not doing anything practically in the world, not even in the mode of passion. So, now with respect to relationships, how does this work out? In the mode of ignorance, we just don’t want to put in any effort. The Bhagavatam, for example, says that eating, sleeping, mating, defending.
The Mahabharata also says this is just animal life. But when people are too much in the mode of ignorance, they don’t even want to make the effort to eat, sleep, mate and defend. They will watch a movie or some erotic clipping or whatever and they watch somebody else mating and they think, I am enjoying.
So, it is not even mating, eating, sleeping, mating, it is second hand eating, sleeping, mating. Somebody else is doing that. So, in relationships, when a man, woman want to form a relationship, often that is because of passion.
But nowadays, with technology advancing, one of the biggest areas in which artificial intelligence and robotics is spending energy and money is what they call as making sex bots. If you have robots, so sex bots. That means that you can have a robo which is fashioned according to your imagination and you can just have sex bots with that.
So, you don’t have to take the trouble to try to develop a relationship with the person, satisfy the person, woo the person. That robo will be always available for you. So, what is happening in the mode of passion, at least some effort is put in to form a relationship.
But in the mode of ignorance, you don’t want to do anything at all. So, the mode of ignorance So, now when we start practising bhakti, our intention is transcendental. But that does not necessarily mean our action is transcendental.
The modes, we get an intention which is beyond the modes, but the influence of the modes still remains. And we may be in goodness, we may be in passion, we may be in ignorance, and we will practise bhakti accordingly. We will share bhakti also in different ways.
So, this affects our relationships also. Can you go ahead? So, now to understand the modes, basically how they, as I said, our intention is here, our action is here. The modes act as a filter in between our intention and action.
So, we can look at two metaphors to understand it. So, one is, the three modes are like three channels along which our consciousness flows by default. So, for example, if water is accumulated over here, and there is one channel, say a vault or something, then the water will naturally flow along that way.
So, the modes are channels. So, if somebody is in a mode of passion, conceivably they can act in goodness also. But by default, their consciousness will flow in passion.
They will act first and then they will think. So, based on the way we have acted, these channels are already formed in our consciousness. And accordingly, they will make us think, feel and act in particular ways.
So, the other metaphor is that the modes are like ropes. The word guna also means ropes. Ropes means that the modes pull us in particular ways.
So, sometimes, external situations just come in our life and we just prompt it to act in a particular way. This person drove me mad and that’s why I did like that. So, again, that is the modes they are acting on.
The mode of passion or the mode of ignorance is making us short-tempered, violent or whatever. In both ways, the rope metaphor indicates more of some external influence that is pulling us. The channel metaphor indicates a shaping of our consciousness or of our inner world that has already happened and that will make us function in particular ways.
So, the modes are inevitably going to affect how we act in this world. So, our intention may be transcendental but our action as long as the filter of the modes is there within us. So, now, the modes, the mind and the emotions.
We try to relate with this. The modes act primarily on the mind. If we consider the modes as external ropes which pull or if we consider the modes as topographical features within our consciousness, channels in our consciousness, then they act primarily on the mind.
And the modes act by triggering certain emotions. Say, for example, in passion there is attachment and aversion. I want this and I want this at all cost.
That’s attachment. Aversion. I just don’t want to be here.
I want this to get lost. Aversion. So, these are emotions which are triggered within us by the modes.
So, you could say emotions are non-rational responses to stimuli. They are not necessarily irrational. The rational or the intelligent element is not involved in them.
So, an alcoholic is there. As soon as the alcoholic sees a bottle of alcohol, immediately desire comes. I want to drink it.
So, there is no intelligence involved in that emotion. We all have certain, some food items we just don’t like. So, just feel averse as soon as you see the food item.
So, it’s a non-rational response. Now, if my rational element is strong, this food, some children don’t like broccoli. Eat it.
No, no, I will not eat it. I don’t like it. But if it’s good for health, the rational element is strong, we may be able to curb the emotion and say, I’ll take the broccoli.
So, the rational element is also there within us, but the emotions are primarily triggered by the modes. And, go ahead please. So, in general within us, our emotionality is meant to be balanced by rationality.
We can’t deny our emotions, but at the same time we can’t simply act only according to our emotions. We have to balance with our intelligence, with our reason. Now, the lower the mode, the greater is the emotion and lesser is the reason.
In the mode of goodness, we feel the emotion. I feel angry and I don’t just suppress the anger, but I appropriately act. So, I balance the emotion with the reason.
But in the mode of passion the emotion becomes very forceful. So, I see something attractive, I just want it and want it at all costs. I just don’t think about anything else at all.
Let me be on a crowded street and a child sees maybe a balloon or a toy on the other side and the child will just run across the street, not seeing there are vehicles over there. So, the intelligence gets considerably compromised in the lower modes. It is there, but when emotions become prominent, then we act often in unhealthy ways, in ways that have unwanted results.
So, although we all have reason, but the reason is like a small canoe, whereas our emotions are like a vast turbulent ocean. And if the ocean is calm, the canoe can move along. But once some storm comes in the ocean, then the canoe just gets overturned.
Similarly, this especially happens in the modes of passion and ignorance, that we have intelligence, but somehow when the provocation comes, we are not able to act intelligently. So, rajas tamo gunaera sabaiyachana. When Srila Prabhupada came to America and he saw the American coastline, one of the first observations about America he made was it is covered by the modes of passion and ignorance.
And then he said the result of that is vasudeva katha rochi nahi se prasan. So, the capacity to understand spiritual truth, to understand Krishna becomes considerably impeded because of the coverings of the mode of passion and ignorance. Can you go ahead? Yeah.
As I said, when the mode is lower, the emotion overpowers the reason. But actually emotion doesn’t just overpower the reason. It doesn’t conquer the reason.
It conscripts reason. Conscripts means it uses the reason to fulfil whatever it wants to do. So, Srila Prabhupada says in lecture, we are meant to use our intelligence to control the enjoying mentality.
But our problem is we are used to enjoying intelligently. Enjoying intelligently means that once we get a particular desire, we use our intelligence to scheme and plan how to fulfil that desire. Sometimes some people say, I can’t speak in public.
I just freeze. I don’t have the capacity to speak. Yes, it may be true.
But make a person angry and even the most introvert person will become a fluent speaker. So, at that time, whatever is the nature that is there, but once we are provoked, we have the capacity to speak. But at that time, sometimes people give their own reasoning also.
But that reasoning is not based on reality. When, the Bhagavatam describes that when Hiranyaksha was killed, then Deeti wanted to take revenge. And then she said that her reasoning at that time was that this Indra, he is so cruel that he manipulated Vishnu into killing my son.
Therefore, I will arrange to kill him. I will make sure that he is killed. So, she wanted to take revenge.
Now, who can manipulate Vishnu? So, she had her own vision. This person is responsible. And she just pursued reality.
And she made a plan also accordingly. I’ll do this austerity, I’ll do this tapa, I’ll make this, I’ll do that. So, it’s not that human beings are not intelligent.
They are not intelligent in the sense that the purpose that they are pursuing is not intelligent. But whatever purpose they pursue, they do use their intelligence for that. For example, if you consider terrorists, they are very destructive, terrible, ghastly kind of people who just kill innocent people.
So, that kind of demonic mentality, it is definitely not intelligent. But to execute their plans, they do use intelligence. How to sneak into country, how to take the explosives, how to get to the right place, they do use their intelligence.
So, that means, in the modes of passion and ignorance, whatever intelligence we have, we use it, but we don’t use it for an intelligent purpose. We use it either for a passionate purpose or for an ignorant purpose. And same way, in our relationships, when the emotion becomes too much, then all our reasoning capacity becomes channelled to just justify that emotion and act accordingly.
So, when I become angry with someone, then I will use my intelligence to remember every single wrong that that person has done. And then, it will be like, that same person who can’t remember maybe the phone number of someone, they will remember some wrong which they did 20 years ago. Basically, in the lower modes, our point is that the intelligence is not lost, but it is misused.
It is conscripted. It is engaged by the emotion for its own purposes. Can you go ahead? Yeah.
So, this is the last slide. We can have some questions. But at this stage, how do the modes affect us? As I said, our intention is here, our action is here.
And the modes filter the translation of the intention into action. When we interact with the world, then there are three phases to it. We perceive what is out there.
Then we process what exactly is happening. And then, we pursue, we choose a particular course of action that we are going to follow. So, these three, with respect to relationships, how when we pursue, what is our vision of others? This person is just a hopeless person.
This person is incorrigible. So, how we look at the outer world, that is shaped by the modes. Then, whatever perception comes in, then how do I process it? A person in the mode of passion, they will come into any room, the first thing they may see is, where are there some objects for sense gratification? How much is the cost of what? They will see monetary terms, they will turn into sensual terms.
Sometimes, I was once giving a class, and this one devotee, this person was coming for the class. He would just sit against the wall, comfortably. He says, what do you like about the class? He was just asking, I like the wall.
I can rest comfortably against the wall. So, the interest was not in the class at all. The interest was reclining comfortably.
So, the person comes, he would always come before everyone else. He was coming before, not even eager to hear, but because he wanted to have the place next to the wall. So, then he could recline comfortably for the duration of the class.
So, we all, what we perceive is determined by the modes. Then, not only what we perceive, this reflects how we see the other person. How we process what we perceive.
That is also shaped by the modes. For example, if there is a fire, then everybody will see the same fire, but the person in the mode of passion will just run away. I have to get out of here.
Quite often when a fire breaks out, the fire does not cause so much casualties as the stampede that happens when people try to run away from the nearest exit. So, the way the person in the mode of passion perceives, I have to do something right now. What is the action that I can do? So, this relates with our vision of our role in the relationship.
We may think that I am the controller, or we may think, oh, this person does like this, I am powerless, I am simply a victim. I can’t do anything. So, we process things in a particular way and how we process it is shaped by the modes.
And then what course of action do we pursue? Generally, psychologists say that people choose the fight or flight response. The fight response is in the mode of passion. The flight response is in the mode of ignorance.
So, when we see some danger, the soul has come to the human body from the animal body in previous lives. And because the mind is the same from the animal body to the human body, therefore, many of the tendencies of the animal world are there in the soul, even in the human body. In the animal world, say, if a tiger sees another tiger, if a deer sees a tiger, I can’t fight the tiger, so I try.
If one tiger sees another tiger, since I am the tiger, who is bigger, who is stronger? I will fight over here. So, basically, in the animal world, there are these two responses, fight or flight. And we also, because our soul comes from the animal body and applies to the human body, so that mentality may be there.
And that’s why we may choose certain courses of action. So, when some conflicts are there, just fight, I’ll prove that my way is right, I’ll just quit and go away. So, that may happen.
So, how we perceive, process and pursue what is the role that we play in the relationship, this is shaped by the modes. So, in the next three sessions, we’ll be talking about each of these, perceive, process and pursue. That’s what our three sessions will be about.
I’ll summarise what I spoke. And then we can have some questions. This is a concept, heavy class a little bit.
The remaining classes will not be that conceptual. So, I spoke about, when you want to spiritualise relationships, what can we do? We can’t change the other person. So, we can change how we view the other person, we can change how we view ourselves in the relationship, and we can change how we act in that relationship.
And sometimes in spiritualising others, we may actually alienate others, because in any relationship there is our contribution and our expectation from the others. So, when we become devotees, because we start practising our own bhakti, our contribution in the relationship may go down, and our expectation from others may go up, because of which the relationship may get strained. So, actually spiritualising the relationship means, spiritual vision means, not just that we make others chant Hare Krishna, which is important, but it means that we change the basic attitude in the relationship.
Not what the other person can do for me, but what I can do for the other person. So, I understand where they are, and where they are, how can I best bring them to Krishna. So, that service attitude is the essence of spiritualising the relationship.
And sometimes we may force others to do something devotional, but devotion is not just an action, it’s a disposition. So, they may do the action, but if they become alienated by that, they become resentful, then eventually that will have a counterproductive effect. So, if our intention is to bring people to Krishna, which is a gloriously wonderful intention, then why does it sometimes backfire and our relationship becomes strained? Because that intention gets filtered through the modes.
And when the actions come out, they may not be what are the best actions to serve that relationship. What are the modes? The modes are channels through which our consciousness naturally flows, or they are ropes which pull our consciousness in particular ways. In the mode of goodness, there is contemplation before action.
In the mode of passion, there is action before contemplation. And in the mode of ignorance, there is neither action nor contemplation, there is simply imagination. And when we are affected by the modes, the modes basically act on the mind and trigger emotions within us.
So, the lower the mode, the stronger is the emotion. And when emotion is meant to be counterbalanced by reason, the counterbalancing force of reason goes down and then we act emotionally and often counterproductively. So, the modes basically change, they affect how we perceive, how we process and what we pursue.
So, how to change this? We will discuss in our future talks. Any questions or comments at this stage? Thank you. Hare Krishna Paramahamsa ji.
One humble request. Please keep your questions in seconds so that the answer can be in minutes. Keep your questions little shy so that so many other devotees also get opportunity for asking questions.
Thank you so much. My question is, there are two types of person, sura and asura. And Srila Prabhupada also uses strong language, like, the scientists are rascals.
So, how we can improve the whole picture together? We have this relationship. Okay. Yeah.
So, there are two kinds of people, the divine and the demoniac, the sura and asura. And Srila Prabhupada also uses strong words like rascals to say, refer to scientists. So, yes, it is true that people may have divine or demoniac dispositions.
It’s also important to see that these are not permanent characteristics. They are changeable. Srila Prabhupada speaks strongly about someone also.
He is not speaking in a mood of condemnation. He is speaking in a mood of compassion. There is a lecture where Prabhupada says, the devotee prays to Krishna.
Krishna, these rascals are wandering in this material world. Please have mercy on them. So, here rascal, there is no value judgement or condemnation.
It’s just a form of address. In fact, if you look at the English of the 1920s, 30s, when Srila Prabhupada basically learned his English. So, at that time rascal was not a condemnatory word.
It is more of, it was an affectionate form of reproach. You rascal, what are you doing? So, it was in that sense. Now the word has a very different sense.
So, what happens is, Prabhupada was very compassionate even when we use strong words. And he was also very conscious of the spiritual potential of everyone. When we may use such words as, this person is demoniac or this person is a rascal, it’s, we almost equate that person with that characteristic.
So, we have to see the spiritual potential of those people also. And even if for argument’s sake we say that this person is demoniac, this person is a rascal, but the point is, what is our relationship over there? What is our role over there? Are we in a position to help them in any way? And is affixing a label like that going to help us bring them closer to Krishna? Now, if somebody is, as it is said, if somebody is envious, then we have to keep a distance from them. Those who are envious, we just, the adhyamadhikari keeps a distance from them.
But, we can become very hasty in determining that somebody is envious. You know, it is basically something may be just wrong in the way we are approaching or dealing with people. And because of that they have become hostile.
And then we label them as envious. And basically, we just perpetuate a self-justifying script in our mind. Sometimes we live, in the name of being devotees, we live in a state of self-congratulatory isolation.
Self-congratulatory isolation. I am a devotee. Those are demons.
You know, we keep patting each other’s back. I am a devotee. Such a nice person.
And they are all demons. Actually, it is definitely that there are some people who are demoniac. But it may be that certain people, they may not be demoniac directly, but because of their past experience with us, with other devotees, who may be in the modes of passion or ignorance, they have got some negative perception.
And because of that they may be behaving in a mythical way. But if we just are understanding, if we are courteous, then they may change. So we have to see the potential for change and see how that potential can be tapped.
Otherwise, if we just, to the extent we try to stand out, I am superior, these people are demoniac. To the extent we try to stand out, we get left out. People just stop caring for us.
These people, but if we try to belong, then we stand out. Because we have a very deep philosophy, we have strong sadhana. If we try to connect with people, if we don’t try to just think that I am superior, but we try to belong, then we will find that we stand out.
And then people, okay, makes sense. Anuttama Prabhu recently told me a pastime of Shri Prabhupada. Devotees were staying at one temple, it was like a condo.
One side the devotees were staying, other side there was an old lady. And devotees made loud kirtans and this lady was complaining a lot. And she was complaining to the local municipality or whatever.
And then the devotees were having a lot of trouble. And the devotees told Prabhupada, you know this, this one, she is a demon. She is troubling us, doing this, doing that.
And then Prabhupada had gone for a morning walk. When he came back, instead of going to the temple, he just went to this woman’s house. And she came out and Prabhupada started talking with her.
Almost 15-20 minutes he was talking. And he was just talking typical old people talks. How is your health? Where are your children? What do they do? What were you doing earlier? And the devotees were thinking, when will Prabhupada talk about Krishna, chant Hare Krishna? Prabhupada did not speak anything like that.
And then, when they finished, Prabhupada just left. And then the devotees were wondering, the question was on their face, Prabhupada did not preach. Preach in double quotes.
And Prabhupada just looked at the devotees and said, sometimes old people feel lonely. And that’s why they become irritable. So, after that, when Prabhupada left, the devotees met this woman.
And she said, your Guru, your Swami is so nice. And then her whole disposition changed. She stopped complaining.
And Prabhupada brought her closer to Krishna without speaking one word about Krishna. So, we have to see, it’s actually a very convenient shortcut to label people as demons. Then the work of improving ourselves or improving our interaction with them, we can just justify not doing that.
Because this person is a demon. But if we see that maybe there is something in my approach that I can improve. So, there are demoniac people.
But in general, it is, it is, it’s a laziness on our part to simplistically label people as demoniac. So, to see that if Prabhupada could have labelled all the hippies as demoniac and he would never have preached to them. But he tried to bring them to Krishna.
So, we have to see, in some people the spiritual potential may be so covered by conditionings that it may not be our capacity. It may not be our Adhikar to bring it out. Then we can keep a distance from them.
But going into a relationship with a particular label can be quite, quite harmful for any positive thing to come out of that relationship. Does this answer your question? Thank you. Okay, where is the mic? Okay, go ahead.
I’m a little confused about the modes and how the lower the mode, the stronger the emotion. So, I kind of think that with love, for example, if someone were in the mode of goodness, even spiritual goodness, you have more capacity to actually, you know, love. Maybe I can understand.
Yeah, I understand. So, normally, don’t people in the mode of goodness have a greater capacity to love? So, how can we say that in lower modes the emotion is stronger? Yes, our emotionality is a part of our spirituality. The soul has emotion as its innate characteristic.
So, it is there in goodness, it is there in passion, it is there in ignorance. But the way it is expressed, a person in goodness may also have strong love. For example, in the past, nowadays people form marriages and they just break.
And they have very effusive exhibitions of love, called public display of affection, the PDA. But a lot of display of affection, but then after sometime there is a display of aversion also. They start fighting with each other.
Maybe in the past people may not have displayed, especially in cultures like India, people may not have displayed affection like that, through actions, through visible gifts or something like that. But they were committed in their relationships. Through thick and thin they would stay together.
So, that itself is an indication of love. So, the emotionality is always there, but it is expressed differently. So, when I was talking about emotion being stronger than reason, what I meant was that emotion gets expressed in a way that is disharmonious or even destructive.
In the mode of goodness, the emotionality is there, but it is expressed in a constructive way. So, it is expressed, say for example, through a committed relationship. So, there are people who are social workers, people who are patriots.
They are working for some cause bigger than themselves. And then many of them are quite sincere about what they are doing. So, they do have emotions, but then they also have their reason over there.
So, by which they channel, this is what I should do, this is how I should act. So, it’s not so much that in the higher mode emotion is absent, but emotion is balanced with reason. Thank you.
Yes, ma’am. You spoke of being spiritual. Is that based on one’s attitude? And is the basic intention of a relationship to bring one to Krishna? And that seems to be a big variety.
That seems to be a big? It’s a big variety. It’s a big, basic relationship to bring one to Krishna. And how that’s done, it depends on the modes or the teaching of all the modes.
Okay, yeah. So, being spiritual basically in the bhakti context means being Krishna-centred. And is the purpose of a relationship to bring other people to Krishna? Yes, that is the ultimate purpose.
At the same time, every relationship has some contextual purpose, immediate purpose also. So, we cannot neglect the immediate purpose for the ultimate purpose. The immediate purpose and the ultimate purpose are meant to go together.
Say, a mother is taking care of a child. The child is crying, the child is hungry. The immediate function, mother has to provide food for the child.
Mother has to give milk to the child or whatever. But the whole purpose of that is to help the child to come to Krishna. So, the immediate is not to be neglected in the pursuit of the ultimate.
The immediate is to be harmonised. And sometimes for some people, the ultimate may take many lifetimes. So, we can play our role in helping them move towards Krishna.
Whether they will go towards Krishna or not, that is up to how they choose. In fact, even we can’t say that we are sure to go to Krishna in one lifetime. We are trying, but we all have our conditionings.
So, basically, we see each other as partners on the spiritual journey. And from where we are, we move forward and we help others to move forward. Now, how far who will go, that will depend on their conditioning, the intensity of their desire, the particular kind of karma they have to work through.
So, a lot of factors are involved in how far a relationship will move towards Krishna. So, from our part, we need to do our best. That’s one part.
As parents, we should deliver their dependence, their children. But then another teaching in the scripture also is, कर्मन्नेवादिकारस्ते मा फलेषु कदाजु. Don’t be attached to the results.
Because we alone are not the producers of the results. मा कर्मपल है तुर्पुर, मा ते संगोस्तो कर्मणी. We alone are not the producers of the results.
So, there are so many other factors. My action is here, the result is here. But it’s not just the action that produces the result.
There are many other factors which are involved in the action translating into result. So, that is not always in our control. So, we have that intent to keep Krishna in the centre of our life.
And we try to help others come closer to Krishna. As much as is possible in our situation. Yes, Jinamaji.
On the same line of the questions, if our relationship is with Krishna only, then what should our relationship be with the rest of the spiritual world? Other religions, other spirituality. How our relationship should be with them? Other religious paths? Spiritual world means we are totally related with Krishna. We think that our relationship is only with Krishna.
So, what should be our relationship with the rest of the spiritual world? Other religions, other sects? If our relationship is with Krishna alone, then what is our relationship with the rest of the spiritual world? Say, other religions, other sects. By spiritual world, I think you are not referring to the Goloka Vrindavan. You are talking about the various spiritual paths that are there in this world.
Bhaktivinoda Thakur says that if we go to a holy place of some other religion, then we should be in a mode of reverence over there, thinking that the same God whom I am worshipping has manifested in a different way over here. And because this manifestation is different, I can’t fully understand it. But seeing the mercifulness of the Lord, that He has manifested in this way to attract these people, my appreciation for the Lord is increasing for how compassionate He is.
And I feel more devoted to the Lord in the form that I know. So, that means we can appreciate that there are different ways in which people can move towards Krishna. So, for example, many times Muslims are quite strict about doing their namaz.
If they are doing whatever they are doing, they just stop and they do their prayers. Sometimes, when I see in airports some Muslims, I keep forgetting doing my Gayatri. I am quite flexible.
Sometimes I do it this time, that time. So, I can take inspiration. They are practising so strictly.
Let me also practise strictly. So, if we are not very fixed in our practise, then seeing others’ practise can make us insecure. Am I doing the right thing? Maybe they are doing the right thing.
Sometimes, if we are not very strong in our faith, then that lack of inner strength comes out as outer aggression. Then I have to prove that you are wrong so that I can prove to myself that I am right. But it doesn’t have to be like that.
Depending on one’s consciousness, there can be different paths by which people can go to different extents towards Krishna. There is worship of the devtas. There are different forms of yoga.
There are different kinds of yajna. All these are meant to elevate people from where they are upwards. Now, all of these may not take people all the way to Krishna.
But mama vartamanu varpante manushyaha partha sarveshaha. Krishna says that all people are on my path. So, this is quite different from say, some Christians say Jesus is the only way.
Krishna says all people are on my way. Now, where they are on that way and whether they are going towards Krishna or even going away from Krishna, that will vary. But broadly speaking, we see that Krishna has arranged for variety in the material based on the variety of the levels of consciousness of people.
And people can elevate themselves accordingly. So, in the 17th chapter Krishna talks about the understanding faith through the moods. So, by seeing what kind of sacrifice they do, what kind of austerity they do, what kind of charity they give, what kind of food they eat.
So, by looking at the characteristics of how people are living, we can understand where their faith is situated. Is it in goodness, passion or ignorance? Thank you. Yes.
Yes. Yeah. So, now we may understand how the moods are affecting us.
But then to go beyond it, is analysis enough or we need to surrender to Krishna? Yes, definitely we need to surrender to Krishna. However, sometimes we may use God to stay away from God. Use God to stay away from God.
What that means is that, say, if I have a relationship with someone and that relationship is not going well, so then maybe I have to sit and think properly, you know, and discuss, understand, analyse and whatever are the issues, I need to address them. But if I think that, you know, I will just chant 64 rounds, and by that chanting, my relationship will be solved. It may be, it may not be.
If I am using chanting of 64 rounds, chanting of 128 rounds as a way of not dealing with the issue. So, in some situations, our service to Krishna is through direct devotional activities. Sometimes our devotional activities may be a way we run away from dealing with the issues that need to be dealt with.
So, in that case, the bhakti activity itself is transcendental and it will purify us. But whether it will address that particular issue at that particular time, that may not happen. Just like if I have got some sickness, I have to go to a doctor and deal with that issue.
Just chanting more may not cure that sickness. So, devotional activities, they are going to transform us ultimately. But then, we see that even when the bhakti culture was there, it is not just chanting or devotional activities.
There are, Rupa Goswami talks about 6-fold loving exchanges. One of the exchanges is Govindam Aakhyaati Pruchyati. We, whatever is burdening our heart, we share that.
Whatever is burdening others heart, they share that. Now, sometimes that is what is required for the healing of a relationship to take place. But instead of doing that, we just keep doing some devotional activities as a way of avoiding dealing with the issue.
So, we could have an inclusive vision of devotion where we see that devotion will ultimately purify me, give me the inner strength to resist the moods by which I can avoid impulsive actions in my particular relationships. But along with that, the scope of devotion can also include taking practical steps to deal with the issues. So, if I understand, this is what I was doing wrong, this is what I need to do right, then we do that.
Arjuna, after hearing the Bhagavad Gita, he surrendered to Krishna. After surrendering to Krishna, he fought the Kurukshetra war and he won it. Now, did he win the Kurukshetra war with the knowledge of the Bhagavad Gita? Or did he win it with the knowledge of archery that he had learnt throughout his life? It was both.
It was both. The knowledge of the Bhagavad Gita gave him the inspiration, the direction, the intention. Why was he fighting? But the practical fighting he had to do through using archery skills.
Similarly, sometimes the spiritual, we may see it as a substitute for the material. But it may not always be. So, there are emotional issues, there are physical issues, there are spiritual issues.
Ultimately, the spiritual will solve all problems. But intermediately, just as physical issues, if I have got some injury on my body, if I have got a fracture, I have to deal with it at a physical level. Similarly, if there is an emotional wound in a relationship, just dealing with it at a spiritual level may not work.
We need to have a sit, put some time, think, analyse, discuss and resolve the emotional wound at an emotional level also. So, of course, we can go towards the extreme in both. We think the emotional is the only solution and we neglect the spiritual.
That is imbalance because ultimately in this world, the very nature of this world is we all will get emotionally wounded sooner or later. And if we just keep trying to deal with our emotional wounds, we will just keep doing that for the rest of eternity. So, we can’t just stay stuck at that.
But at the same time, we can’t neglect that entirely. So, if we consider maam ekam sharanam vrajaasis, maam evayaih prapadyanti mayaam itam tarantiti, those who surrender to me go beyond the modes. But how do we surrender? One way of surrendering is by our strict sadhana, by our diligent study of shastra.
But if we exceed devotion inclusively, then surrender can also include the diligence to do what is required for addressing a particular issue. Srila Prabhupada when he was trying to protect the Juhu land, he was not just chanting Hare Krishna. He was planning, you know, you do this, we send a letter over here, we do publicity over here, we’ll do this, we’ll do that.
He was ready to fight for Krishna. So, we see the spiritual and the practical as complementary. And we see devotion or surrender not just in the spiritual but also in the practical.
And with this inclusive vision of devotion that we see, then we can see this kind of analysis, it is not independent of devotion nor is it a replacement of devotion. It is a component of devotion. Now, for some people who are introspective and analytical, this kind of analysis will help.
For some people it is just too hyper analytical, I don’t want to do all this. That’s fine. We all have to see anukulyasya sankalpa pratikulyasya vraja.
We have to find out what is favourable for my bhakti. What helps me to go towards Krishna. So, for some people such analysis can become a valuable tool by which they can work through their issues and go towards Krishna.
For some people it may not be necessary. So, our purpose is fixed but how we pursue that purpose, we’ll have to consider our situation, our disposition and then appropriately act. Okay? I think, can you talk personally? If you don’t mind.
You want to say something? Yes, definitely. Ultimately I may resolve, I am not going to get angry. But if I don’t have spiritual strength, I will still become angry.
So, I do need to purify the anartha of krodha from me. But, as I said, if we see the spiritual as a means for improving our, say, practical behaviour. And we see the connection, then that is good.
But otherwise we see, I am just doing this and I don’t bother about this. So, the material level transformation alone is not enough. And if the spiritual does not translate into anything at the material level, that can also be a problem.
So, if the spiritual becomes a vehicle by which we transform at the material level, then that is very good. So, one last question. The amount of devotees is very satisfying to me.
Because we think there is a need in the world to help people and organisations become powerful and healed. And it behoves us to want to do this amongst our Vaishnava community, for sure. I went to a Gurudev class last week, I remember hearing the topic of envy came up.
And it was a very good class. And I asked them for their notes, because they were so powerful quotes. And one of them was about an ashtakar, about when we try to pull someone away from their inner guidance, from their following, their inner faith, it is actually, we can’t be envious of Krishna.
We have to be careful. Because Krishna is guiding everyone, as you said. And so, not that we don’t want to present and attract people, but to think we know best for every entity is quite facetious, and presumptuous, and cocked up, right? So, a humble approach, and not assuming that other people are doing it all wrong, as you said.
Because I will just turn them off. There’s this wonderful quote that says, people don’t care what you know until they know that you care. I think this is so beautiful and heartwarming.
So, I’m happy to be here today. Thank you for the comment. Hare Krishna.
So, we’ll have a 10 minute break now. So, around 11.35 we can meet. We’ll talk about changing our vision of others in our relationships.
Thank you.