The Bhagavad gita’s great greater and greatest secret -The Monk s Podcast 162 with Garuda Prabhu

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Hare Krishna Prabhu welcome back to the monk’s podcast so wonderful to have you always enjoyable entering into dialogue with you my friend yeah thank you yeah okay so the last time we had a very uh you could say a sweet discussion about a very potentially volatile topic about understanding Prabhupada’s Bhagavad Gita and what what is his approach what is his strategy in presenting the Gita so I felt we could build on that most of the issues we discussed over there maybe I’ll mention two issue we I thought we’ll discuss is does the Bhagavad Gita have a secret message and later there are two questions so first of all why is it a secret then and then how can we come to know about the secret message so the word Guhiya comes several times in the Bhagavad Gita and as your book your title itself as the beloved lord secret love song so first of all how does secrecy how do you reconcile secrecy with the mood of compassion why should if the lord is compassionate and he is giving us the message why would he want to keep anything secret at all maybe you could start with that yes wonderful well secrecy Chiranjeev secrecy really works on two different levels there’s the lord who keeps something secret about himself from conditioned souls but also it’s naturally hidden from us as conditioned souls okay so there’s a okay the two aspects is one is what he intentionally keeps secret and the other is what he is not keeping secret but we are unable to access what naturally remains hidden okay so for example we could say even the understanding that I am the soul that itself is hidden because because of our conditionings we identify with our body is that what you are referring to right example that’s right if if I’m if I’m out in the forest at night it is natural that the tiger would remain hidden because I can’t see it okay so there are certain things that we’re not ready to see because we’re still in the dark so to speak okay until we get the like you and I wear glasses okay so this could be the Bhaktivalochana the Bhaktivalochana when we put the glasses on of the Bhaktivalochana we can see when I take my glasses off you’re blurry but when I put them on I see with clarity true okay so then maybe we could talk about levels of vision also because there is the itself uses the word Gyanachakshu I think in 1510 and then yes I think this analogous word might be Shastrachakshu but there’s Gyanachakshu and what you talk about is Premachakshu or Bhaktivalochana so basically maybe we can talk about two levels so the two levels of so rather than you maybe can use the word secret but the we could also say the two levels of knowledge that are inaccessible to us and they become accessible hiddenness I think hiddenness is a good term yeah but wait let’s go back to Krishna okay sure please so and his secretiveness okay let’s so one is let’s I think we don’t have to go too much into the idea of because of our conditioning we don’t know some things that’s that’s perfectly understandable so but I don’t think that is the kind of knowledge Krishna is saying that that is hidden because I think the way he uses it uh he says isn’t it that there is confidential more confidential most confidential so maybe you could yes you could continue with what Krishna’s talk refers to as hidden knowledge so here there are three levels whereas just now you mentioned two so how do we uh reconcile that okay okay so let’s take the Bhagavad Gita you were referring to the Bhagavad Gita let’s talk about the Bhagavad Gita how does the Bhagavad Gita open you know I love presenting Bhagavad Gita to students in the university who’ve never read it you know what I show them Chaitanya Charanji I showed them the opening of the Bible there you know God created the universe he said let there be light and there was light he created the universes and it sounds like a scripture doesn’t it and then the different gospels they open up with the you know the generations that lead up to Jesus and the you know the the coming of Jesus and and uh uh quoting Isaiah one of them quotes Isaiah to affirm the divinity of Jesus and then another um starts waxing with gnostic wisdom and mystery and that sounds like a scripture and then I go to the Quran and wow the Shahada beautiful sounds like a scripture you know praise be to Allah and so on and and so you get to the Bhagavad Gita what happened on the battlefield tears confusion yeah yeah in other words what that it opens up with a bat how is this sounding like a scripture compared to the other scriptures okay what what is how did these soldiers act on the battlefield Russia right right so you know on the field of dharma on the field of you know assembling together some of it uh your youths of our desirous to fight hmm no and and you know how does this sound like a scripture to you I mean it doesn’t compare to the others but you know how why it’s a scripture because it speaks to the heart of the human condition hmm intention with kuru or our conditioned existence is our pure nature dharma this rub between our kuru nature and our dharma nature this is the rub this is what the Gita is all about it speaks directly to the conditioned nature of our human existence it doesn’t waste any time doesn’t talk about the the universe and well I mean the Bhagavad talks about the universe and later in the Gita Krishna talks about the creation or the this is the the extension of the universe from his very being and so on that’s fine but the Gita speaks immediately through the Dhritarashtra through the the evil king of Dhritarashtra through his words how do we act in a world of suffering a world of suffering that typically begins with us this the the the the conflict between our true nature and our conditioned natures therein lies the the root of suffering so okay so how does the now the reason I’m going to the first chapter to Tantra is because it directly corresponds to the 18th chapter it’s the very frame within which the 16 chapters of teachings exist it’s a frame okay so the frame how does it begin Arjuna is finding himself subject to the conflict in the outer world that then precipitates the conflict within his inner cognitive world which then precipitates a kind of heart shattering of the heart in his innermost world okay those three levels the outer world’s conflict precipitates the inner world like I’m trying to figure this out I’m trying to work out what’s going on here that’s the cognitive world and then Arjuna finally says oh my god this is this is so painful this is so painful and he drops you know his knees buckle he drops to the seat in his chariot so could you call it something beautiful could you call these three levels or something like say the one is of course the territorial conflict the second is more like a ethical conflict um because he’s well the ethical conflicts on the outer world or you’re calling the outer conflict as ethical conflict yeah the outer world is the is the interactive world okay so that’s Arjuna in relation to the warriors on the other side of the battlefield who are his cousins his friends his teachers he is asked to kill people whom he loves oh so so even the outer conflict what you are saying is in one sense uh not the physical conflict it is basically a conflict with with respect to his perceptions of the outer world and how respond to them in a that’s right and that yes and it is an irresolvable ethical conflict he realizes that when he tries to work it out with his inner cognitive world he tries to reason uh maybe I should let them kill me because I don’t want to live in a world without without loving friends who wouldn’t want to live in a world without loving friends anyway I mean no one no one would so he says you know that how can I love live with that if the if the spoils of victory are tainted by the blood of my grandsire and my teacher what is the point of it I don’t want to live like that what is the point that’s right that’s right so so that’s the so he’s trying to work out whether he should even fight maybe I should let them kill me maybe I shouldn’t kill them he’s trying to he’s he’s working out all that stuff in his head and then finally he just realizes I am I am so hopeless and helpless and his heart is shattered this is the inner innermost world of the heart so what do you call this sorry would you call this like a existential conflict or what would you call this innermost level any word for it oh oh that’s the affective faculty so the world of the of the heart is the affective the seat of feeling sentience and and the the the inner world is cognitive and the outer world is interactive yeah I think we have mentioned these three points so the word affective you use it slightly differently from say emotional because emotions can be from the mind but what you’re talking about is from the innermost core heart emotions are most uh uh how do you say most essentially from the heart emotion means what moves out from my being we all begin with the heart it goes through the mind and then spells out into the actions of the world in the in the world from us but say are all emotions from the heart say for example if somebody gets infatuated with say people get mad about harry potter or star wars or something like that so yes in one sense it is not even real physically it is a fantasy world so but wherever emotion is involved that emotion is from the heart is that what you’re saying yes feeling the world of feeling has to do with the heart now whether those feelings are conditioned or whether they’re pure that’s another discussion feelings are absolute chaitanya charanjee if I make you feel badly right now by calling you a frog which would be an insult very insulting I suppose I you know you’re nothing but a frog okay and Garuda’s just called me a frog that makes me feel bad I mean I don’t understand why he would call me a frog that’s the cognition the cognitive why did he do that why did he call me a frog I I feel badly maybe he thinks whenever I respond to him that he that I’m croaking you know like a frog or something like that you know you might try to work it out in your head intellectually but but the only reason you’re doing that is because you feel badly at the root are feeling creatures we are feeling creatures no but sometimes we say that don’t carry away by your sentiments don’t be so emotional so because our emotions can often mislead us but what you’re saying is so in way we often say that reason should be used to restrain emotion so in some ways my understanding was that there are two levels of emotions one is say what comes from the mind which is quite superficial there is some I just see some nice eatable and I want to eat it and there is some emotion in that I’m attracted to it but that may be very different from say the emotion which I may feel to a towards a fellow devotee or a family member or something like that and then ultimately that is different from the emotion that we feel toward Krishna so you’re saying so the emotions that so then what is the role of the mind if all you yeah yeah forget about the word emotion feeling like right now you’re feeling you’re you’re a feeling creature you’re feeling being okay do you feel good right now do you feel good yes I’m happy to be with you okay so so there’s there’s some maybe happiness maybe you’re feeling well you know maybe you’re feeling inspired as I know you are often with the philosophy and discussions and all kinds of interactions with devotees you feel inspired we can we enter into a life of bhakti not because we’re intellectually calculating but it feels right we are sentient beings most essentially the seat of feeling is behind everything now if it comes out in a sort of explosive way or a kind of dramatic way emotion means it come moving out then yes maybe sometimes it gets if I get too emotional with you here I’ll try to check it with my you know my my intelligence my buddhi so so this is why at the bottom Arjuna is being moved from the outer world to the inner world inner cognitive world and ultimately he’s finding out you know what I am collapsing uh I am you know Arjuna Vishada yoga the yoga of Arjuna’s despair is the name of the first chapter how is yoga a despair how is hopelessness a yoga how is helplessness yoga if these things that we can feel so deeply in our beings bring us to devotional realization bring us to spiritual life then it’s a yoga okay that’s nice I don’t wish I don’t wish absolute devastation of your heart Chaitanya Charanjee I don’t wish that for you okay but if that should happen you will be as a bhakti you will be moved to take even more shelter of Krishna just as Arjuna did so I mean this is fascinating so every time I study the Gita with discuss the Gita with you there’s so many uh how should I put it sometimes without the saying that a light goes on inside the head sometimes what I feel is that so many lights go on in the head I don’t know which light to follow now so but but just at that all the and just a reaction of all the lights going off for you on it’s it’s a light it’s a light on not going on you say like yeah that’s right lights going on that’s right sometimes uh lights lights uh how do you say no in the proper way lights going on yeah um almost sometimes we use the word off like lights are going off on their own or you know yeah I know they’re acting that’s true yeah right is that that’s a little sorry but it’s better more indicative to say the lights go on so many lights are going on with you and you laugh with delight yes that’s a feeling that’s a feeling okay yeah definitely that’s not that’s not that’s not the head that’s the heart and and the emotion was that you burst out laughing yes so so how are you connecting that with you said that if sometimes Arjuna even if Arjuna is shattered so crystal the sea of the guitar revives him the restore yes yes and the last chapter of the gita and see now I want to take those three levels and show how in the 18th chapter they are finally addressed as the great secret the greater secret and the greatest secret of all respectively so that’s the frame the beautiful interactive cognitive and and effective affective affective yeah yeah right so are there any Sanskrit words for this to go or um uh you know um uh uh you know okay uh uh maybe um uh of course or or yeah I mean they’re they’re different words that could be used okay you know um these are my own observations admitted yeah sure but I’m a philosopher I’m a I have a license yes yeah but I got them from Krishna you know you if you study the philosophy as a whole these things come to the foreground so you take the outer worlds inner world and innermost world world of Arjuna and then you go to the 18th chapter you jump to the 18th chapter which really is a kind of summary of what Krishna was giving Arjuna throughout the whole Gita but he brings it in to where the first 49 verses of the 18th chapter address Arjuna’s outer world conflict and that is the great secret the great secret has to do with Dharma yeah that’s why he talks about doing your varnashrama dharma and but do it in the mood of worship so a karmanatma structure work in a mood that’s right and throughout is analyzing and talking about uh he doesn’t explicitly tell Arjuna to act in the mode of goodness but the comparative framework itself implies that goodness yes good goodness is recommended that’s right so that’s and we could say broadly dharma means acting in goodness like that’s right yeah okay so that is the level of dharma that’s right and that that uh the secret of dharma is to act out of love to act from the heart to act sincerely to act according to your swadharma to act you know fully as yourself and to act in relation to the divine so this is this is the great secret okay act fully as yourself so that means from Arjuna’s perspective Arjuna is a warrior is a kshatriya and he has to fight so if yes if he’d in the name of non-violence or pacifism if he thinks that i will just let go and i’ll forgive like a brahmana that won’t work so in that sense right aligning with aligning with his uh his psychophysical nature so shreyanswadharma paradharmaswarnasiddhatakrishna talks about that isn’t it that yes we have to work according to your own nature not anyone else’s nature that’s right that’s right guna karma vibhagishaka right the the according to our qualities our attributes and and uh and the way we we our activities i always like to i always like to tell my students that while i was in college i was a football player now they all laugh they just know automatically i’m not i was never a football player do i look like a football do i you know am i buff like a football player no i mean you know just you know and so the psychophysical natures of humans are ideally engaged in such a way that they can offer the fruits of those actions to to to the universe to the divine to krishna it’s it’s it’s a way for human beings to be in harmony with existence so that’s the outer world so the great secret addresses arjuna’s outer world just like you said it is his nature as a kshatriya to engage in war to protect innocent persons this is nature is it my nature to go to war no it never has been there was plenty of war around when i was a youth but i didn’t go you know that was not my nature okay now the inner world uh a cognitive world of our genetic those problems are addressed by the uh greater secret okay verses 50 through 63 okay if i just may pause a little bit if i’m mad it is so well just here but the but chaitanya chart notice 49 verses are at the bottom of the mountain 13 14 verses are the middle of the mountain and eventually we’ll get to three at the top okay go on okay yeah so 50 to 62 and 63 and then 64 okay that’s right so now i was just thinking that this working according to your swadharma in what sense is it a secret that is it something that is not known to people now we could talk about the secret from from our perspective and you could talk from say krishna’s perspective maybe from one one thought that came to me is that in today’s world people are often pressured to act in ways different from their nature it may be the pressure of maybe social pressure family pressure fear pressure even media pressure so that’s right everybody wants to say in india maybe be a cricketer or film star a movie star or something like that so whatever that’s not the oh yeah and or maybe it’s a little more sober and they say in india you know if you don’t become an engineer or a doctor your life is a failure so those are the that’s terrible yeah so that’s right that’s right it’s our true natures remain hidden okay so we use the word hidden in the sense of secret they’re hidden because of our conditioned distractions our conditioned sort of circumstances so yes so now this is a secret that the gita is revealing in a sense so to arjuna yes in what sense because arjuna was already acting according as a kshatriya only in that situation he was confused so in what sense is it a secret that is that is revealed by the gita so okay so the secret was that he needed to he needed to find a way for that outer world situation in which he found himself to be aligned with the true cognitive and true affective dimensions in other words the element of divinity was missing the element of the true self was missing in his in the and the greater secret moves him into that direction uh with with the idea of varna and and dharma and um and acting uh without the fruits of one’s actions being enjoyed but rather you’re doing it out of joy you’re acting out of joy you know i tell my students you know you should be so fortunate to find something in the world that you really love to do that’s so you the very thing for which you were put here that’s a very fortunate person a very fortunate person too often people find themselves in jobs that they are you know i mean retirement is like you count the days to retirement chaitanya chart i could already retire now if i want it you see me retiring anywhere i don’t i’m teaching at two universities i’m i i i’m you know i’m if anything i’m teaching more than i ever did when you love what you do that’s dharma and of course you and i know it has to be connected to the supreme so that’s the hidden part that’s the part krishna gives in the great secret okay krishna also is in our hearts he remains very quiet he remains silent he observes he witnesses just like the two birds in the in the tree on the branch right your panasonic example the one bird is so busy eating the fruit it doesn’t even notice there’s another bird yeah that’s beautiful so so yes yeah this is the second this is this is the first level secret isn’t it that’s right the great secret the super soul is not really uh speaking to us at this level we are just obsessed with the outer world and if we are fortunate then we come to know our nature and work accordingly okay that’s right makes sense that’s right okay so so it remains hidden from us what our true nature is because we’re so distracted by the conditioned circumstances in which we find ourselves what is our true nature what is our true nature and of course you know the the inner divinity is is sort of gently prompting us to that direction so there is a kind of gradual movement to the inner world which corresponds to the greater secret can you also say that there are levels of joy that the first level understanding also that brings a certain level of joy in it isn’t it absolutely yeah so if you nature i think i i read some books on writing so there was one author he said that if i come to know that i’m going to die by tonight i will type faster throughout the day so so he doesn’t know about god maybe the doctor not read the bhagavata or anything like that he’s just it’s a threat of death yeah yeah so but that means loves it so much i just want to do it more so so there’s a joy in that but then there may not be any in there is a you can say there’s a connection with our nature we are well harmonized with our nature but we are not yet connected with divinity in any way any significant way right that’s right yes you know the the epistles the epistles of paul in the new testament i believe they’re 13 i think they’re around 13 the epistles of paul are known to be some of the most beautiful beautiful letters ever written and they are exquisite and um paul was the apostle paul he was very sickly he was very sickly and he never knew if he would if he was going to die and not only that he was also persecuted he was also house jailed um house arrested and you know he had all kinds of problems so when he wrote those letters to his congregations like the philippians or the corinthians or the romans he wrote those letters as if those were the last so it’s not just the threat of death but the the passion to give them something of the divine before he leaves so so your your writer uh a friend or or your uh that book you read right he’s saying okay right with the threat of the deadline literally the dead line yeah right okay with the deadline but it’s more than just the deadline it’s about this passion to to deliver to souls the most precious jewel of existence and for him that was you know jesus christ that’s true so even at this level when one is aligned with dharma so krishna also talks in one sense about uh that it’s not just acting according to your nature but act in a mood of worship so it’s not that there is no connection with the divine but we could say that so at this level uh we are aligned with ourselves and uh maybe you can explain the second level second level of hidden secrets and we can categorize them or yes a little more clearly yes the greater secret yeah the greater secret has to do with transcendence the greater secret has to do with the true self knowledge or awareness of the true self the whole self the whole self and the divine presence within the self and all around one so it has to do with the atman it has to do with brahman and it has to do with um uh paramatman so in the in the 15th chapter of the gita the 15th chapter talks about the the the uh uh the kshara purusha the perishable person well the purusha never perishes but it it in a sense it does when it’s covered with so much conditioning then there’s the akshara purusha the akshara purusha right which is the liberated person right yes okay so the liberated person is this greater secret the kshara purusha is in the conditioned realm but becomes akshara purusha because of acting according to dharma and it being in harmony with the the with reality and ultimately moves that true self to realization of the inner presence of divinity okay and brahman brahman is is mentioned in the gita here so the nature of all reality and these are the ways the the great the greater secret is to understand how divinity has been embracing us for an eternity embracing us from without embracing us from within and embracing us from all around us okay brahman paramatman vishwaroopa respectively vishwaroopa not bhagwan oh that’s the greatest secret of all hey don’t jump hey hey you’re ruining my whole you’re ruining my whole thing here okay that’s that’s the prize that’s the prize so you’re saying no i’m just trying to understand so brahman vishwaroopa and paramatma all are part of the second of the greater secret yes is it okay it’s the embrace what i call the divine embrace yes so krishna says also there that i am residing in the hearts of you got it i’m directing their wanderings and you got it krishna also talks about surrender at that level also that’s right that rather than using the word surrender i said take to the one shelter the one shelter yeah yes yeah so and so then just going back a little bit when krishna is in the 1 to 49 at first section there also there is some conception of the divine that you should work in a mood of worship to the divine so karmanatam abhyarcha so there the focus is not on the divine the focus is on more on the work and it is offered to the divine whereas here it is more of a embrace of the the divine is you could say more the center of one’s consciousness center of one’s perception yes you could you know chaitanya charanjee you could see that the vishwaroopa was more involved in the outer world after all it is an outer world manifestation the way the divine presence pierces through this conditioned existence and of course you know whatever is you know exquisite and excellent and powerful in this world is but a spark of the divine right so so the vishwaroopa so so actually it is really the the the great secret would more incorporate the vishwaroopa and then when you get to the greater secret of transcendence and the true self the atman and then the paramatman and then brahman that would be those would be more characteristic of the greater secret and all of these embrace us all the time that’s how we exist that’s how we exist yeah we are already in the divine embrace you know when you’re talking about the paramatman already being embraced yeah yeah already yeah that’s true in the 15th chapter also krishna reveals about how we are right now also being sustained by the lord and then he talks about how i am the light of the fire i am that i just i am the light of the sun then i am the digestive fire so he’s sustaining that’s right now so that would be the that would be a correlation the greater secret or the great secret um that would be the um uh the greater secret yeah okay i mean again these are not like super strict categories but they yeah you know it’s fluid it’s fluid so you know the divine is all around us and then the divine is outermost and then innermost oh okay that way you’re putting it right so maybe these levels are more more as tools for us to understand rather than rigid categories in which we place the bhagavad gita’s verses right okay right but but but it’s an evolution again why is it called a great secret as compared with a greater secret the greater secret is because it’s more all-encompassing okay so that’s why you have the positive the comparative and the superlative okay now okay but now let’s go back to the gita 15th chapter because in the gita we have after the kshara purusha and the akshara purusha we have then the the the greater secret when um the uttama purusha the uttama purusha is described um which can be translated as the imperishable you know i’m sorry the ultimate who is a person uttama purusha the ultimate who is a person or the supreme self who pervades all reality so so the uttama purusha characterizes the divine in the in the greater secret and then when you get to the greatest secret of all you get to the purushottama so there’s a difference between the uttama purusha and the purushottama okay uttama purusha and purushottama there’s a difference yes see uttama purusha is see purushottama means the ultimate within divine person but equals bhagavan as in bhagavad gita so the uttama purusha is describing the ultimate as a person and that’s the paramatman but the purushottama is different than the uttama purusha i know you haven’t heard this anywhere hmm but i’m giving it an analysis okay yeah you know do you know do you realize after after 55 years of reading the bhagavad-gita do you realize how many times i’ve read the bhagavad-gita i mean that’s and you said at the beginning of our talk how so many lights can go off you know oh there i go with off again yeah they just get you know uh they go on okay that’s a better expression they go on how many lights go on and and you know it was only until i delved into the yoga sutra which i’m working right now for publication working on right now for publication that i returned to chapter 15 to carefully analyze what is going on in the sanskrit uttama purusha two separate words one is a positively modifying the other now i don’t want to get too grammatical because i’m going to lose we’re going to lose our our viewers here yeah most people don’t like grammar no it’s a good point i’ll just in the sharing the screen for the 15th was with the sanskrit 15 chapter just give me a minute i’m thinking now yeah you 15.16 17 18 there’s definitely a hierarchy in that and yes if you consider what yes so strikingly true so the yes yeah yes it is it is the supreme self it is the ultimate person yeah so so it’s interesting krishna there are places where krishna in one sense refers to himself in the third person and that is large that’s right when he’s talking about the paramatma he’s talking about his paramatma manifestation correct and if you see in the next what you’re um he says yes aham aham is pratita purushottama yes so there you go he’s referring to himself as the supreme person and that same yes we see in 1862 and 66 also 1862 is also talking about surrender but it is a surrender in the second person surrendered to that one reality whereas 1876 yes so right okay but let’s go back here let’s go back to the 15 chapter which you have up here now there’s a difference between uttama purusha and purushottama they are not saying the same thing hmm it’s so exquisite chaitanya charanjee what’s being said here the uttama purusha is saying this is the ultimate who is a person referring to the paramatma which is the word right there in the same verse when you go to the next verse he says i am however yet still another level of this i am the purushottama that is to say the ultimate of divine personhood the ultimate within the divine person you see the ultimate within divine personhood and that is bhagavan uttama purusha is not bhagavan purushottama is bhagavan so coming back isn’t that beautiful it’s very striking and i knew that purushottama is bhagavan but it didn’t strike me that just uttama purusha and purushottama are two different things and of course yes think of it this way yeah think of it this way chaitanya charanjee that the the ultimate uttama purusha says the ultimate which is a person and then purushottama says the ultimate within divine personhood so in other words the ultimate within that person so there’s there is the the ultimate which is a person but then there’s the ultimate ultimate within that person that is sri krishna himself so i am bhagavan beautiful so it’s almost like uh normally many traditions talk about a hierarchy culminating in divinity but within the gaudiya tradition there is hierarchy within divinity also and that’s right so this is talking about hierarchy within divinity indeed and that’s why the great secret is involved with the vishwaroopa more and then the greater secret brahman divinity without and then and paramatma within and then the greatest secret of all is the purushottama the greater secret is uttama purusha but the greatest secret of all is the purushottama the ultimate within the divine personhood the ultimate of divine personhood the ultimate of divine personhood you know what that means that means krishna in rajloka that’s beautiful so the ultimate of purusha the ultimate of purusha the the previous verse says the ultimate is a person is a purusha is the purusha but then the ultimate within the purusha it’s a subtle thing but it’s there yes so now in one sense can you also say in terms of their mood there is a much greater intensity of passion or emotion transcendental passion when krishna is calling out or it is it is the purushottama who is referring who is speaking as so as come the paramatma is also affectionate but as you say the paramatma is somewhat neutral he’s neutral he says i hate no one i love no one i’m impartial so we could also say that when krishna is when when the gita is leaving arjuna with a with a choice in the deliberate and do as you desire so that is that is yes 1863 1863 that’s right so it is it is not exactly indifference but you say it’s almost like it is like detached education now i have given you education and now it’s for you to decide what you want to do but then 64 yes yes that’s okay so in 1863 yes this is where you we truly have free will before arjuna did not have free will when he was in a slump a person who’s drunk for example a drunkard right how much is free will does he or she have none i mean they’re they’re drugged they’re they’re completely incapacitated by a drug with arjuna’s state of hopelessness utter hopelessness and despair he had no free will he he was so weak as is explained as he confessed this in chapter 2 verse 7 right but in in 63 thus for you this knowledge which is a greater secret than the previous secret is made known by me having fully grasped this with nothing overlooked then act as you so choose now because you’ve got the great secret and the greater secret you now have the will you now can be the architect of your own future but not when you’re in a slump then the gunas are going crazy on you in one so once yeah yeah in one sense actually we never lose free will entirely it is you can say that’s right or degree even though you can say a drunk also has that option whether i should drink more or i should now get out and go home so but although an addiction is pretty darn powerful an addiction i’m telling you it’s it’s pretty bad addictions are devastating because they just take over you yeah yes that is true i mean of course we there is a limit to how much free will we have but i just feeling that to say that there is no free will might be a little strong statement isn’t it because we do have it it might be but you know when someone has an addiction the meaning of an addiction is that i will use all my energy to nourish that addiction the the the addiction of let’s say on a drug as strong as cocaine or heroin this is this takes over it’s a sickness it’s a disease there is no vishudha tamas you know there’s no vishudha tamas no such thing is absolute darkness but there is vishudha sattva yeah yes so of course in addictions can be overpowering no doubt about it at the same time it’s like the addictions do not overpower to the same degree all the time like we say we have urges and then even the urges have surges so yeah when the surges are there then it’s almost irresist not almost it’s irresistible but the hope for the addict is or even for attached person is in between those surges what can we do so arjuna going back i mean arjuna also you could say that he was overwhelmed but still he had enough free will to recognize that i have to surrender to krishna i can’t figure this out myself so if he didn’t have that free will also then he wouldn’t have been able to surrender also isn’t it that’s true it’s a subtle thing you know there are the urges and then you said um uh the surges i would like to add a third one submerge okay and when you’re submerged it’s very bad place it’s a very bad place um arjuna after all had divinity shri krishna bhagavan right in front of him and that of course is the third greatest secret of all to actually so the divinity all around us in the vishwaroopa a great secret the divinity uh without everywhere brahman the divinity within paramatman and then the ultimate of divine personhood standing right in front of us right in front of us and this is where divinity calls us and divinity has been calling arjuna throughout all those 16 chapters it started in the first chapter though when divinity just sat and listened do you realize krishna said hardly one thing he said maybe a couple of words that’s it a couple of words this is a manifestation of his compassion but also his neutrality this is a god who does not force us to love him this is a god who does not judge this is a god that does not condemn this is a god that does not coerce this is a god of love and part of love is allowing a beloved to do what they need to do as painful as that is yeah so this even neutrality hearing as arjuna krishna is doing that is also a manifestation of krishna’s love yes it’s not not cold it’s not cold no one should read the gita and see it as somehow you know krishna has been there for an eternity just watching you know the bird on the branch watching the other bird indulge in eating the grapes or fruits that bird is wishing for a connection that the bird could stop indulging for a moment and connect with the other the heart of the other bird this is divinity his desire is for us to come back to him yeah you know so i just going back to the earlier point you said that about yeah in the other scriptures they sound like scripture but the first chapter doesn’t sound so much but then we could connect it here that i don’t think in the either in the bible or the quran there is any place where god is hearing from the seeker it is what is hearing from god whether it is moses getting commandments or muhammad getting the quran through the through gabriel or then of course jesus is a person but then jesus position is a he’s he’s not entirely god he’s like on the earth so people are interacting with him regularly so yeah it’s beautiful depends on who you ask yeah depends on who you ask about jesus but yeah that’s right yeah but yes that’s right krishna is so gently he’s very gently revealing himself throughout the gita it’s not until the fourth chapter that he’s reminding arjuna hey guess what i you know guess who i am here i mean do you remember who i am i mean you know so he said and then of course you know uh yeah he’s such a profound thing he gives i believe that’s in the fourth chapter what 11th verse so you know yeah 411 so so he says however anyone submits themselves to me i reciprocate i love them back i love them i worship them but i worship them i love them reciprocally that’s very powerful beautiful of course krishna das kaviraj states in the chaitanya chartamitra that krishna broke his promise with the rajagopikas but anyway that’s that’s that’s esoteric for this discussion yeah yeah so now so this in one sense this reciprocity and when you’re talking about the innermost secret or the greatest secret but there actually yes krishna’s heart comes out isn’t it that he says that i am speaking this for your benefit because you are dear to me i loved your translation so i think you translate dearly loved by me isn’t it how do you translate yeah you are so much loved by me so much you are so much loved by me and i’ve been telling you this and no no okay so the greatest secret of all it’s more than just a superlative chaitanya charanjee you know grammar pretty well okay so a superlative would be the greatest secret but that’s not emphasis enough that’s not crying out enough divinity is yearning he’s desired the greatest secret of all secrets that’s a super superlative the greatest secret of now if that were not dramatic enough you know new imperative taste imperative please hear once again i’ve been telling you this i’ve been yeah yeah okay go please go ahead now how can there be something more relative when you say that it is beyond superlative what is the grammar you’re saying i didn’t get that part yeah so it’s sort of a guhyatamam so it’s the greatest secret but what sarva all the greatest secret among all secrets comparatively speaking it is more secret it’s the greatest secret it is it is the most important secret beyond all secrets okay so guhyatamam is being intensified by sarva so in that sense that’s right it is like a you could say something about it’s super super super that’s right it’s a superlative of a superlative that’s right beautiful okay yeah and if that weren’t dramatic enough right uh you know booyah chenu chenu is the imperative case you must hear this please hear this it’s a pleading booyah chenu i’ve already please hear this once again for a final time if that weren’t enough drama my supreme message my my ultimate words here my ultimate words and then if that weren’t enough drama it puts it in an itty clause quotation marks that’s sanskrit’s way of underlining something what is that underline how yeah it’s it’s itty like um um so the itty underscores or or but see sanskrit doesn’t have underlying boldface double strike italics you know emojis you know we don’t have emojis in in in sanskrit so it you are so much loved by me in quotation marks it’s like a frame you are so much loved by me so you’re saying itty itty acts like an emphasizer okay that’s yes it’s it’s an emphatic it it’s uh it frames that clause uh and it’s it and you know as first uh from someone who has translated the gita and poured over the text for over 55 years now over 55 years trust me there is not a more dramatic verse in the whole gita that’s amazing yeah of course now let me qualify let me qualify that chaitanya charanjee i mean you know arjun is very effusive doxological expressions in the 11th chapter okay even in the 10th chapter starting with verse 12 yeah okay beautiful beautiful doxologies okay beautiful okay but coming from krishna himself this is the most dramatic and yet it’s a simple shloka you know uh you know quatrain a verse it’s it’s it’s it’s not the the elaborate you know of 11 syllables per quarter verse no it’s the typical eight pyrrhonic shloka right but within it he is so powerful and so dramatic there is none other more dramatic than that yeah and then beautiful 65th verse and this and finally the 66th verse even in this verse ishto sime dhruvam iti so dhruvam iti is not emphasized but dhruvam iti is also the dhruvam is also very important it’s like earlier yes krishna has told arjuna that you have your practice of bhakti that yes in 9 13 14 the great souls are determined that’s right but here krishna is telling that’s right i am already doing that part i am determined so now it is exactly so that’s right good very good that’s a good exegesis yep okay great stuff it’s beautiful it’s just beautiful yeah beautiful you know so again i’m speaking this for your benefit so it’s a that’s right i never thought of it that way but this is definitely so 65 and 66 are more you could say exaltatory there also the affection is there but in one sense this is pure affection how much pure absolutely pure and it’s coming from his heart and this is this is the real gita the song the song coming from the beloved lord’s heart to all of us you know it just calling us this is the flute manifesting in words it’s the flute song manifesting in his words um yes and and of course he you know he says uh yes uh thereupon now i translate that uh you know the thereupon i shall continue declaring this message for you which i have set forth into motion and and then of course you know being mindful of me with love offered to me sacrificing for me act out of reverence for me truly you shall come to me you will come to me this i promise you for you are dearly loved by me powerful this kitchen and charm does it get better than this beautiful is there anything i mean i mean now why is this secret okay now let’s get back on your theme that you’re pounding away why is this the greatest secret of all why you know i’ve had students read through the whole gita and tell me what is the essence and they have no idea what it is they don’t get there it remains secret i know so many devotees who don’t appreciate this pinnacle of the bhagavad gita this single highest point to which krishna refers in chapter 18 verse 72 in his last verse he asks us to hear the whole teaching with a kagra you know with a kagrina okay with with uh chaita so with with thought focused on the single highest point with attention to the single highest but what is that single highest point that single highest point is sarva-guhyatamambhuya that is a single highest point now i was also saying uh chaitanya charanjee that this i’m not criticizing devotees for not knowing this it is natural that we should go through the various stages of kanishka bhakti to be able to progress to the more madhyama bhakti levels okay i and i was saying that i don’t go to an elementary school telling the elementary school children that they’re all stupid that’s true no i mean that’s it’s good to be a good elementary school student so you can progress on to high school so you can progress unless you’re someone like me who drops out of high school but whatever um and then you go on to college now the problem though does remain that when you if we stay at the elementary school level of education the kanishka level while we should be in high school that’s a problem if we are teaching other students and we’ve never progressed beyond the kanishka level of knowing of knowledge that’s a problem that’s a problem and if a leader in our movement you know now now look you know that the fact of the matter is again these are fluid categories kanishka madhyama uttama we need to be careful that we always especially as teachers we must try to move toward uttama vision and understanding as teachers on a madhyama level but because i’m a conditioned soul who’s trying to make his way up through the kanishka stage to madhyama i need to be in the association of sadhus so that’s why i call you up chaitanya charanjee that’s why we have these meetings so i can refine my understanding i can be corrected when i’m wrong and or when i’m right that i can be appreciated and we can expound on that together that’s where your ecstasy comes in where you freeze up okay that’s on the video conference call but we should never forget what the ultimate principle of bhakti is which is that there is a divine yearning and bhakti and the chanting of the maha mantra is the return embrace to the way divinity has been embracing us all the while eternally but we may not so chanting for me may be a discipline it’s not a return embrace for me yet okay it may be something that’s a discipline and disciplines have value but eventually i will be calling out back to krishna as he has been calling out to us i will be returning the call just like sometimes you write to me on whatsapp and then i ignore it oh that’s chaitanya charanjee i’m not going to answer him okay that’s what we do with krishna right but if i return the message if i if i reciprocate with your message on whatsapp ah then there’s a connection we’re not always ready and so that’s the hiddenness that’s natural in the process of progressing upward in bhakti krishna also is very very eternally and infinitely patient and compassionate and will wait in eternity more if that’s what’s necessary so the secret in this context is that krishna doesn’t like you said that you don’t go into a kindergarten class and tell them that they are foolish so krishna doesn’t really reveal the you could say the depths of his love to somebody who is not yet ready for it not ready otherwise you know what what what kind of relationship is it in this world if someone professes their love for them and they don’t love them at all and then they keep you know stalking them krishna’s not a stalker okay he’s not a stalker because there always has to be reciprocation so krishna is present as the parmatma but the parmatma is not a stalker he’s not forcing us a stalker is somebody who follows a stalker is also somebody who who almost forces that’s right opportunity okay that’s right that’s why you know when i was walking along the sidewalk during between classes and the sidewalks are very you know crowded because all the students and professors are going to classes right and i happened to be walking right behind two young ladies who are students there my university and i heard one of them asked the other does mike still love you and the other one clicked back and said he better or i’ll kill him oh god can you imagine the situation in which mike found himself i mean if he didn’t professors love to her under duress which of course that’s not love at all when you’re forced he would be killed and if he was honest and said i don’t love you and then she’s going to kill him so i think mike i think mike was killed that’s my theory it has to be reciprocal love is something that even a god cannot force us to love and that’s the only thing we have control over everything else is controlled by the lord you know this the way you’re analyzing this also makes sense of the words which immediately comes after 1866 then krishna says don’t speak this to those who are not yet ready exactly beautiful thank you for mentioning that beautiful okay but then in one sense so when we are trying to like you are you have written the full book the beloved lord secret love song where what is what is the innermost secret greatest secret say prabhupada has revealed it in this gita so it is that can we say that even if we read the words we will not they will not register in us unless we have evolved to a particular level of receptivity that we may even read the gita but we will find something else captivating us more than this the gita you know krishna’s eventually saying relinquish relinquish all forms of dharma come please urgently take to me as your only shelter shelter dharma is not our shelter you know giving up the fruits of one’s activities is not our shelter dying during the the waxing of the moon in the eighth chapter is not our shelter doing ashtanga yoga in the sixth chapter that is not our shelter performing sacrifices of this and that and the other is not our shelter but whatever we do reciprocate reciprocate my love please i’m here desiring you yearning for you gita it’s all in the word gita the lord’s divine yearnings and supplications to our hearts the beloved lord’s secret love song now you know why i’ve titled it that way it’s beautiful thank you should i try to summarize please please you always do it beautifully it’s going to be tough but let me try so we started with discussing about this secret what what is the secret about the gita so we started by how the first and the 18th chapter like the frame and that’s why we started with the first chapter and then jump to the 18th chapter to understand so in the first chapter arjuna has three levels of conflict one is the interpersonal conflict which is the ethical conflict what he should do and how can i kill my relatives and from there there is the cognitive conflict just can’t make sense of it should i just uh should i just let them kill me what should i do at all beyond that there is an effective level of conflict and then we had a elaborate discussion about how in the gita we jumped to the 18th chapter so verses 1 to 49 are the are the a great secret and that is that we need to work according to our dharma swadharma so it is be yourself so it’s uh it’s not it’s secret because many people get caught in by social pressure and other things do something to do something different from what they are they are innately inclined towards yes a few people are fortunate enough to can be in a profession that they are naturally suited for yes and then so at this stage there is some awareness of divinity uh but the focus is not there then in the then the next section 50 to 63 is the it could be the paramatma level and to some extent basically it is where god is neutral at the same time he is uh he is informing us is this it’s it’s informing but not uh you could say not not requesting or uh not calling out in that direction that happens later and then we differentiated between the 15 chapter how there uttama purusha so the the ultimate who is a person that is uttampurusha and then purushottama is the the ultimate within the ultimate person we could say or the ultimate within the transcendental person so uttama purusha is the paramatma and krishna uses that refers to paramatma in the third person or second person rather whereas when he’s referring to himself aham that is in the first person yeah that comes in 1862 and 1866 also so 1863 is where we have free will and it’s up to us to choose so love is love means there has to be free will at that level but and krishna doesn’t stop he’s not like a detached teacher he is you could say an impassioned lover and that the most dramatic verse is 1864 so it’s super superlative and then shrinu as you said that’s an imperative earnestly requesting please hear these are my supreme words and then it’s just it’s amazing how many intensifies how many words of affection are there again you’re dear to me i’m determined determined and then i’ll go on speaking to you because of that as he said for your benefit and then we have discussed these two verses which are more exhortative so here krishna’s heart is coming out to us and he is he is at one level you you know we had the cyclicity that we have this started with talking about how the gita doesn’t sound like scripture as compared to say the start of the oldest start of the oldest cement or even the uh quran but the gita is not starting with god is starting with the human condition and in that sense it’s it’s not about god high up it’s like god with us addressing the human condition and that’s why arjuna is so fortunate that he has the ultimate divinity with him on his chariot and so at the start of the gita krishna’s love is seen by he hearing arjuna that is also his compassion and then his compassion you could say his progresses throughout the gita with his revelation of more and more about himself so divinity has been eternally calling out to us divinity is calling arjuna throughout the gita but in the conclusion that call attains in zenith and then discussed about how there are so many things which uh we might get distracted into while studying the gita also and if i fall and there are different levels which different people will be actually attracted to that is also okay for their level so but krishna he reveals his loving heart for for and for those who are ready to understand it that is that is supremely enriching and i think we got a glimpse of that enrichment today through this podcast so thank you very much for you want to add any concluding words i think you did a beautiful job and um of summarizing uh everything and um just you know you should put a warning on the today’s podcast that you know if they can’t um if they are not ready for the supreme you know secret of yoga guhyam param yogam the supreme secret of yoga which is the start of the guhyatama right that and they should watch another podcast of yours thanks for putting it thank you thank you very much wonderful to have you i look forward to having you again i look forward to it as well