The Monk’s Podcast 10 with Shyamananda Prabhu – Where is God amid crisis
Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.
Thank you for joining today once again. And today, thank you. I was thinking we will discuss on the topic of where is God amid crisis.
Would you like to have some kind of structure or should I share something and then we can take the discussion for yesterday you had those three points. I had written them somewhere, but I don't have them right now. Okay.
So yeah, so we start with that. Normally, when do we turn toward, normally we turn amid crisis toward God. And then when we expect God's help or God's presence, what are we expecting actually? What are we expecting? And then how can we sense God's presence? So when we turn toward God, what do we expect? And what can we expect? So I think you responded by so should we start with this? Yes, we can start with that.
Okay. So for most of us, when we go through life, we have a particular vision, a particular focus, just like if you are driving, at that time, we focus primarily on the road ahead of us. But if somebody suddenly runs in from the other side, one side or the other side, or way ahead, we see that there is a big traffic situation, then our attention goes over there.
So for normal functioning, we have a, we could say a particular perspective of things or a particular focus for things. And so for most of us, when we are going through our life journey, in the focus that we have, it is okay, if I do this, this person may do this, then I will do that. If that happens, I can do this.
So it's mostly this worldly perspective. And we could say many people are at least functionally non-theistic. They don't think about God as playing any role in their actions.
And we could say that we may also fall in that category at times. So, but when things don't go the way we expect them to, or factors beyond our control suddenly change things, then we start expanding our perspective, basically changing our perspective. As long as a particular vision works, we don't think whether I need any different or bigger vision.
But when that vision doesn't work, that's when we start thinking. So Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita says that there are four kinds of people, and if we say all of them, their present vision is not satisfactory. And I classify these four into Artho and Artharthi.
They either want some pleasure, they all want some money by which they can get pleasure, or they want to avoid pain. So these two are more gross. Whereas Jijnasu and Jnani, it's okay, this picture is there, but what is more? I want to know something more.
So they are a little more evolved. It's more for information or actually for really a complete enlightenment. So when we face crisis, we could say it's Artho or Artharthi, then our current vision of who we are and what we are meant to do.
Okay, I'm a driver and I'm going to drive this car this way. When that stops working, that's when we start seeking God's help. And when our normal way of life doesn't work, we pray to God.
And if even then, if God does not respond and our normal way of life doesn't resume, or whatever we have thought doesn't come, then we start feeling, where is God? So the point I would like to make before I go to the next point is that here, when we are asking where is God amid crisis, we can also ask that where is God when there is no crisis? If we are not turning to him at that time, suddenly to expect that he will come at our beck and call is not a reasonable expectation. There could be something wrong with that expectation. So you are saying that you would like to pause before you go to the next point.
So is this the first point? What to expect when such a situation arises? Yeah. So second is what do we normally expect? And what can we expect? So what, in a sense, what we expect is that God will miraculously intervene and remove our problems. Or it could be that, as I said, that basically we expect some kind of supernatural miraculous intervention by which God will deal with the problems.
I saw once an ad which said that if you are not insured with us, then it's time to say your prayers. So that means that when, if I am not good at managing my finances, if I am not taking necessary precautions, then I expect God to intervene in some supernatural way. So any thoughts about this? No, no, you go ahead.
Why don't you just take all three points and then I will share what angle I'm looking at them. Okay, perfect. So then, normally we expect some kind of miraculous intervention from God.
But what the Gita tells us, Gita 7.16 is four kinds of people. But then 7.19 describes the most evolved spiritualists. So there is a drastic shift in vision.
Normally we think of God as the fulfiller of desires. But the evolved soul sees God as the fulfilment of desires. That God himself, Sarvamiti, is himself so attractive, so loving and lovable, that in absorption in him, we can get sublime satisfaction.
That's the idea. So what can we expect from him? I sometimes differentiate between there is release from distress and there is release amid distress. So if we turn toward God and pray to him and try to connect ourselves with him, then we will get an absorption, we'll get a shelter, we'll get a strength by which we can face the situation.
So to expect that the distress itself go away is, if we start with that expectation, then we'll feel where is God, where is God? But if we start with the purpose of connecting with God is not that we demand that he miraculously intervene and remove our problems, but rather that he gives me the strength to deal with the situation. Then we can experience that relief amid distress, not necessarily release from distress. Is that something like saying, should I tell God to remove the problem? Should I tell God to lift the burden? Or should I tell him to strengthen my shoulders? Oh, beautiful.
Yeah. Ask not God make life easier, ask that God make you tougher. Yeah.
So what if somebody feels that I'm going through this problem, but I don't even have the strength to deal with them. What if there is a common saying that God never tests us beyond our capacity. But what if I feel that this problem is way beyond my capacity and although I'm praying, my strength doesn't seem to be increasing.
That seems to be the breaking point for Draupadi, for Vajendra, that I can't take it anymore, I can't take it anymore. And actually that's the point when not only they are the strongest, their prayer is at the purest and God is the nearest. Beautiful.
They are the strongest, their prayer is the purest because they don't have anything else. Okay. And God is the nearest.
That's beautiful combination. You thought of it just now? Yeah. Wonderful.
So now that means what seems like a breaking point turns out to be more like a breaking away point. It's like an object is trying to be lifted up, lifted up, lifted up. And it's about to crash down, but it gets the escape velocity and rises and goes out of the Earth's gravity pull.
This also seems to be the rule of people who build muscles that your muscles actually don't grow unless they come to a breaking point. So the growth takes place when the previous paradigm kind of breaks and then the body responds with strength and then the muscle starts growing. Okay.
So if we compare life to a workout, it's only when we are stretched enough, then we challenge our previous conceptions and there's a new conceptions come up. So we could say that the conceptions we have are like a shell and we are like the world inside the shell. And it's amazing that nowhere in nature does a mother bird ever break the shell for the baby to come out.
The baby struggles and it's a painful process. It brings a little wing out and then snaps back and the wing gets pierced and then brings out a foot out and the foot gets pierced by the back of the shell. Then through that laborious process, the bird's muscles develop, the bird's body develops and then it is able to fly.
Otherwise, if the shell is easily broken, it comes out and won't fly. So we could say that the present challenges are our preparation for our future opportunities. True.
And if we try to shortcut or escape the present challenges, then not only might we miss on the future opportunities, but we might, we might end up with future dangers. We might hold future dangers more than necessary. Yeah.
So now what would be the shell that we need to break out of? Is it not a reasonable expectation for me, say if I have a loved one who is, who is, if a mother has a child, my child is sick with some terrible disease. If I pray to God, please, please remove this disease from my child. So is it that I'm asking too much from God? So what would be the shell that I need to break off from that time? It's hard to say as, as, as we have noticed that to tell somebody who has lost a loved one in this crisis or is about to lose like one doctor I saw in a video and to call the relative on the phone and tell them that your loved one may not be able to make it.
They are seeing that the ventilator is at maximum operative efficiency and still the body is simply not able to breathe. So, so these are some of the tough times where as you said that I'm trying my best and I'm praying hard, but then we also are taught that what could be the reason why something is being allowed by God and there comes the test of the faith or the purity of our prayer. So I would see in this light that if somebody has some kind of a capital, spiritual capital and that person is an advanced transcendentalist, they can use the situation of crisis to make sense of things and if somebody doesn't have that, they can use this time of crisis to make that capital.
Can we say something like that? That two kinds of people can benefit. Those who already have that sense, they can see God's hand and they are relatively at peace. Those who are not at peace, those who don't have that capital, but they can use this situation to actually make it.
The possibility is also there that they can make that fresh beginning. Yes. So, let me start with the idea that God's presence amid a crisis is in giving us the strength to grow, in giving us the resources to face the crisis, not necessarily in removing the crisis.
So then we could go deeper. Is it that if I expect that God should remove the crisis, then why can't I expect that? Some people might extrapolate by saying that if there is no God amid a crisis, there is no God at all. God doesn't exist at all.
So, when we want to understand God's role in the world, it's important that we understand the purpose of the world. Generally, one of the fundamental principles in logic is that everything has to be analyzed in context. So, a person, a design has to be evaluated in light of the purpose.
If I take my phone and I decide I'll write my next 500 page book on the phone and I'm typing, I'll come to the board and I start cursing, this phone is such a stupid thing, I can't write well. Well, the phone was not meant for a 500 page book. So, the design has to be evaluated in the light of the purpose.
So, if we consider that is the world designed for the fulfillment of our desires? If we think God should be the fulfiller of my desires, is the world designed for that purpose and is God meant to play that role that he will fulfill my desires? We could say that at one level, that in the world, certainly some of our desires, some of our needs are fulfilled. So, there is evidence for design, but there is also clearly the undeniable presence of distress. And the very things which give us shelter also cause us trouble.
The sun gives us necessary light and heat. The sun can also cause extreme heat. The water can give us, water is necessary for drinking, but the excess or shortage of water can cause problems.
So, we need to consider the world may not be designed for the fulfillment of our desires. Just like if we consider that there is a, which is a place where there is both provision, but at the same time, there is also pain. There is provision and pain.
So, we could say the one place is a hospital. In a hospital, the purpose of the hospital is not to cause pain, but pain is inevitable. And if I expect the doctor to remove all pain, that may not happen.
But if the doctor gives me the process, okay, you take this medication, you do this exercise and you'll become better. So, then in the overall fear of the hospital and my stay in the hospital, I can feel the presence of the doctor in my capacity, in having access to the resources to deal with the pain and to gradually overcome the pain. So, we talked earlier about growing, breaking the shell and growing.
We could also take the same thing and talk about growing as healing. So, for healing also, we can see the hand of the doctor or the hand of the divine in our lives. Yeah.
So, just reminded me, we had this topic, we had some discussion yesterday, but we couldn't finish it. So, C.S. Lewis talks about this God in the dock. That means there is a situation at hand and humanity kind of petitions God or in legal language subpoenas him that you need to be there.
You need to be present at this particular court. You are answerable. So, God is in the dock and C.S. Lewis masterfully made this point that why is it that he should be answerable? Is it that as you began at this point that he's got something like a highway mechanic that when your vehicle breaks down and you make a call and all he has to do is come there, repair your vehicle within the record time so that you can carry on with your whatever merrymaking, singing songs or having luncheons or whatever and you can go from one place to another.
And so, he makes a point that rather than humanity should be in the dock and we should allow God as a magistrate to read out what all things we might have not done properly or where we could have transgressed. Like Jane Goodall, she's now almost 83 or 85 years old, is a wildlife expert, famous wildlife conservation expert and she said that she put it very mildly that we need to treat other species in a more dignified way. What we are doing now is simply repugnant.
It is not proper. So, I will end with this and I will leave it to you that Chesterton's quote that if you see things upside down, maybe it's because you are standing on your head. So, today where is it that we could be standing on our head and seeing things upside down and mostly it is being pointed at the way in which we are consuming fossil fuels, the mass consumerism, the crass me attitude that everything should be for us and even in that humanity is not united.
Like less than 1%, they own more than I don't know how many 50-60% of the world's financial resources and they are not guided by principles of sharing and caring. So, rather than putting God in the dock in this time of crisis, it is we who are in the dock and we need to pay heed to at least people like Jane Goodall who are saying that learn the art of treating other species in a much more kinder way. So, I will leave you with this question.
Is today's science able to teach us that kinder way or science would say that that's not my domain, don't tell me to teach morals? That's a very deep question. One reason or one result of science or the scientific worldview is that we have acquired unrealistic expectations about what the world can provide us. One of the defining differences between the modern and the pre-modern civilizations is the role of the other world.
Whether it was India or the Middle East or the Far East or Native Americans or Native Australians, almost everybody across the globe in the pre-modern times understood that there is another world beyond this world and the life in this world is like a journey, it's a preparatory, it's not our ultimate resting place. So, he just said this world is like a bridge. So, again going back to the metaphor of the hospital, the idea that this world is a hospital means that there is a home outside and you need to get there.
The purpose of the hospital is to get home, not to make the hospital a home. But what has happened is as science progressed and especially through science, we got technological advancement and we thought we gained power to control nature and bend nature to our will. Then instead of thinking that we need to elevate ourselves to some other world, we started thinking that we will be able to create paradise in this world.
And the expectations from this world increased more and more. And although technology helped us to maybe make our externals more comfortable, but internally, we still are distressed. In fact, we may be more distressed now than in the past.
So, in some ways, the science, again this is not to demonize science, but to contextualize the role of science in our current human condition. That at one level, science provided the resources by which we thought we could dominate the world and technological resources. And science also led to the intellectual worldview that the idea of any other world that just a pre-scientific religious fantasy.
And this is the only world that is there and we have to make this world a happy place. Now within this, it's almost like man through science, through technology can play the role of God. And when we are not able to play the role of God, then we call out to God, oh help me.
So, we have reduced our vision of existence to this world. We have elevated our role to almost the role of God. And then, when we are not able to play the role of God, within our sunk worldview, we are expecting God to come and fix things over here.
So, if we want to see God's Maybe we need to begin by lowering our expectation of the world and lowering our expectation of what we can do through science or technology or whatever else. Basically, lowering our expectation of the world. What do you think? Yeah, that's a very good point.
So, upside down, what you the ultimate goal and the idea that we can make this into paradise. So, the idea that I can make a hospital into a home is upside down thinking. I get this idea that humanity thinks this world belongs to us because seemingly the proprietor is not there.
We carry on with our own way of utilizing the resources here. And when there is a reaction from this world, we immediately drop the claim that we are the owners and we ask God that if this belongs to you, please fix it. That's powerful.
It's like saying, what is it saying? That success has many parents, but failure is an orphan. Yeah, yeah. Success has so many people who say that this is my offspring, but failure, nobody wants to call it their own child.
So, when things work out well in the world, we say humanity has advanced so much. We are proud of our science and technology. But when things go wrong, then we say, why is nature so cruel? Why is God doing like this? I have this small thing about science.
Let's say science developed the skill of making a cigarette. Obviously, the tobacco plant was there for thousands of millions of years. But the skill of wrapping a small piece of paper over tobacco leaves and calling it a scientific discovery.
And science was the one to find out that it is bad for our health, but it did not just make commercial sense. So, those statistics and everything was kind of kept under the wrap. And it was the same science which discovered that actually it kills.
So, previously, when it was okay to smoke anywhere, and just a few areas were designated as no smoking. And now we see you can only smoke here. Why? Because of the crisis of thousands of people getting lung cancer, oral cancer and other types of cancers.
So, science can actually, if it is serious, become kind, become caring. It is just that the emotion or the anartha of greed, which is, greed is not like a product of science. The department of greed or how to deal with it is totally a moral department.
And there is no vaccination against greed. You can bring down somebody's fever with paracetamol. How do you bring somebody's greed down? That is spiritual culture.
Okay. This is a very profound point. Let me just recap and comment on a few things.
Science, Einstein said that science is a wonderful thing, as long as you don't have to earn a living out of it. So, basically, science as a quest for knowledge, that can actually expand our understanding of the universe, appreciate its glory. And that can even help us point to some higher intelligence beyond that over his nature, or that is manifest in nature.
There's a story of Euclid's, who studied geometry. And then there's a student who came there. The question is, what is the use of learning about all these shapes? So, then he called, he says, give him some coins.
He said, unless he gets coins, he doesn't understand the value of studying this. So, in a sense, at that time, at least with this anecdote, the idea was that if you think that knowledge has to translate into some tangible financial gain, then that is something missing in your motive itself. The idea of knowledge traditionally was for the development of virtue.
Plato said that knowledge is virtue. Francis Bacon, who was one of the pioneers of the scientific method, said that knowledge is power. So, now we look at the world also, and we try to gain knowledge about, okay, how can I control this world better? So, but if we consider that rather than how can I control the world better, how can I control myself better? So, if I start asking that question, then we will be living much more in harmony with nature.
And it's like in a hospital, if you're thinking, how can I make the kitchen here, cook the food that I want and get it? I want a six, I want a 15 course feast. But instead, I think, how can I control myself? If I take the diet here, take the medication here and get cured. So, in one sense, that moral impetus for self-regulation doesn't make sense if we consider this world is our home or this is our party place.
If we understand that this is a hospital and the purpose here is not primarily enjoyment, but treatment, the purpose here is not gratification, but purification, then regulation makes much more sense. So, if I don't think about God or I don't give God any place for myself, if I live in a hospital as if it's a hotel and I eat anything and then I'm sick and then I ask the doctor, hey, why are you not treating me? Why is your treatment not working? When I'm in pain, why are you not coming? But even if the doctor comes, if I'm treating a hospital like a hotel, I won't be able to get healthy over there. So, we, science itself is not responsible for it.
Science ultimately is done by human beings. But indirectly, because of science, a worldview has been fostered where we are treating the hospital as a home and then we can't sense the presence of God. As soon as we start recognizing the need for a regulated living, then we turn toward God in prayer so that we develop the self-mastery and then start experiencing his presence more and more.
So, if in the presence of pleasure or in the normal life, if we turn toward God and learn to connect with him, then even in distress, we will be able to feel his presence much more. And that presence will give us inner strength, inner calm. And that's how we can grow, we can fulfill the purpose of the world.
I can just sort of sum it up at our conversation's end, that rather than sending an email to God and to summon him, it is to send an email to understand what is my role here. And as you rightly said, can we say that when we hear this word Dukhalayam or the Bhagavatam says Padam Padam Yatri Padam, that the crises, plural crises, multiple crises, they are not the surprising element. This environment is meant for those and the gap between two crises is actually the surprising element.
That's a very sobering way of looking at things. And the only place where there are no such crises is like many years ago, there was a speaker, I don't remember the name. And somebody asked that, why didn't God make this world a peaceful and a nice and a beautiful place? So they said that the answer given was he already had made one.
Oh, he already had made one. So there is already such place existing where there are no such crises. But if we insist that we want that place to be here and that place to be permanent, then that could be a kind of a mistake.
So he's not denying peace, he's not denying love, he's not denying eternal life, bliss, knowledge, cognizance. All these things are there. These are the things which we anchor for and they are already there.
So this brings a question that if I don't believe in any other world or I don't really care for any other world, is it really possible to have any deep or meaningful faith in God? No, the question is, it is not that you need to believe me because I am saying there is another world. Okay, let me rephrase this question. Okay, right now I'm in trouble and I'm not feeling God's presence.
So what can I do right now? Okay, I may have a wrong worldview. I'm ready to re-examine all these things. But is it that I can't expect any help from God now? Or what can I expect? When I'm in trouble, is it that this world is a hospital means I have to be in pain and I can't expect anything? I have to tolerate the pain till I get discharged? It seems to me like a very world-rejecting idea.
Okay, I know that danger is there. But you are saying that somebody doesn't believe in another world or in another reality. So if somebody doesn't believe in a hospital management or scientific discoveries, but at least he's seeing the care provider, the nurse, the paramedic, and they are giving something like the ventilator is giving him that kind of help.
Now, of course, if the person is comatose, he doesn't even understand that he's being helped. We are talking of somebody who is consciously getting that help. Is that something like that what you're asking? So right now, with the wisdom given by saints, sages, who are talking about how to make your life in this current Corona crisis, a little bit panic-free, stress-free.
They are telling you to share, they are telling you to give a little bit of what you have to others, experience the joy of helping others. Teaching you the merits of prayer. So whatever they are giving, if that is helping you, then you can, I'm talking about the person who says I don't believe, then you can talk to them about what is it that motivates them? Why are they not being victimized? Why are they so keen on sharing their wisdom in a world driven only by profit? And when that has failed, how come these people, they are sharing something valuable, very gladly, very happily.
So at one point of time, you have to come to this thing that what drives this person? If the motive is not profit, the motive is not greed, the motive is not to beat the competition, then what? There has to be something higher, which is motivating them. So at one level, I might expect something, I might expect something material from God. But more important is that I understand that by seeing those devoted to God, that there are non-material gains also, and they may supersede the world gain.
And those, I can learn those, and I can be animated and energized, and that's how I can feel God's presence. It's beautiful. So thank you very much for joining today.
Hare Krishna.