The Monk’s Podcast 36 with Anuttama Prabhu – How to engage with the world?

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Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

Hare Krishna, Anathama Prabhu. Thank you very much for joining once again. It was very illuminating last time discussing on the topic of overcoming the Veda mentality.

Thank you for spending your time once again. I'm very happy to be here. I think these are very interesting and important topics we're discussing.

So thanks for inviting me to be with you again. Thank you. So I thought we could continue today.

And there was one thing that we avoid the Veda mentality. And then how do we go forward and engage with the world? So I thought we could talk this at three broad levels. One is as an institution, we engage with the world.

As individual devotees, we engage with the world. And then devotees engage with the world practically in their professional and familial roles. So institutionally? Institutionally, that individually it is more as a devotee.

How do I interact with the world? And then we also have our familial and professional roles. Yes. Act with the world.

Okay, good. So thank you. So would you like to start with the institutional first or start with the individual first? Well, why don't you ask me a specific question and we'll see where we go from there.

Okay. Yes. Thank you.

So basically, generally, like we discussed last time that the insider outsider border was very clear. It was almost like a wall between the two in the past. And then if somebody went from inside outside, it was almost like the person had fallen away from spiritual life.

That was the idea. Now the insider outsider, there's not so much we are trying to, it could say lower the wall or remove the wall. So as a in as a individual, when a devotee is practicing bhakti and say devotees encounter people with different faith orientations, different worldviews, you know, and sometimes devotees may also encounter people who are in professions that are contrary to our spiritual principles.

Not only are their practices, but also their professions. So these are various areas where we need to interact in a way that is somewhat likely to create friction. So I could start with an example is that I know a close friend who, when he was introduced to bhakti, he became very rigid about not following anything else.

And his family was Maharashtrian. So they used to worship Ganesh quite in a devotional big way. And he said, I won't be a part of the Ganesh worship at all.

And that was the parents were a little upset by that, but then they give some Ganesh prasad. So then he said, I will not take any prasad at all. And his parents insisted he took the prasad and then he went outside the room near a window and threw it out.

And one of his relatives saw that and it was like a furor afterwards. He was almost for some time, he was about to leave, get so much conflict and his parents were forcing him to leave. But now, I mean, now things are, this was just 20 years ago.

Now things have evolved so much that one of those same leaders who had, now nobody told him like this, but that's what he learned from. Maybe you could say some kind of osmosis. That's how I should behave.

But now I remember one of the leaders, he says that Ganesh puja is a time where it's like Christmas in the West. At least in Maharashtra, people go to each other's houses. So he says that if somebody gives you prasad, the 364 days, you're taking a normal prasad and one morsel of food if you take, which is offered to Ganesh, that's not a big deal.

So I think that which battles to fight and which battles are not worth fighting, we as a movement are also maturing now. But this is just one example of say, how an individual may need to engage with the world. Any thoughts on this? Yes, I mean, a lot of thoughts.

Last time we talked about this idea that we have an understanding that there's standards that need to be maintained. We talked about how the standards are kind of like a snapshot. But if you looked at the video, you'd be talking about systems.

Yes. Systems are progressive and they're ongoing. So you may take a snapshot of somebody and he's eating meat.

And then you take another snapshot and he's eating meat once a week. And then you take another snapshot and he's becoming vegetarian. Then you gradually, you work your way up.

Now he's offering his food like that. So any one of those given snapshots up to pure devotional service is bad in one sense. It's materialistic.

Even, you know, one's engaging in the preliminaries of bhakti. Well, you can be criticized. Well, you know, you're chanting, but there's no love.

Or you accept that you haven't given your whole life 10%. Or you're grahastha and you're keeping money aside for yourself. You know, I mean, we can argue like that.

Or we can see it as systematic. Here's a person who's making progress. And that's the key.

We want to see that each of us individually and within our communities and the people outside our communities to try to help people be gradually moving towards Krishna, towards pure Krishna bhakti. And some people, it takes a little longer. We've all had the experience.

Some people, they come to the temple and practically, you know, in the early days, especially in the West, sometimes people, they come and they get some first contact and they move into the temple the next day. And some of them never go away. They just stay.

And other people, it takes some time. You know, they come one week and you'll see them for a month. And then they come back and slowly and then they start to chant.

So different individuals have, we have a different, we have free will. And we're conditioned in different ways. We have different habits.

We have different addictions and different things that attract us to Krishna. Different obstacles. You know, some people, maybe they come from like an impersonal background.

And the idea that God's a person is a big obstacle for them. I might have mentioned to you, I had a very funny experience. I thought it was funny, but interesting.

I was at Denver a year ago, Denver, Colorado. The United States is my home temple. I hadn't been there about 10 years.

And I gave the Sunday feast and there was kirtan. And I was speaking with one young Western woman. And she was very enthusiastic during the kirtan.

So I just, you know, took the chance to go over and sit and talk with her a little bit. And she was telling me she'd been coming to the temple for a year or so and how much she loved the kirtan. So I just did kind of like a very simple exchange.

I said, well, the reason the kirtan is so wonderful is because it's non-different from Krishna. And she said, no, I don't believe in God. I don't believe in God.

I don't want to hear about God. And I was completely caught off guard. She said during the kirtan, she's been coming to the temple for a year.

She loves the kirtan. And then she just like effusive and how much she appreciated the kirtan. I could see it during the kirtan and the bhajan.

And I could see it in the way she expressed herself. But for her, I don't want to hear about God. Don't give me the God stuff.

So like, OK, OK. Yeah, I just backed right up. That's fine.

Just come and chant and eat. You don't want to hear about God. That's fine.

You know, somebody else, they just come and they love to hear about, you know, Krishna is a supreme person. And he plays with the cows. And he's there with Radharani.

And that's great. But when you talk to them about sadhana, well, if you think God's a person, then you should come downstairs and help wash some pots. Oh, I'm not going to do that.

I'll come to listen to the lecture and read. But I'm not going to do any service. I'm not going to give any money, et cetera.

So different people, you know, certain aspects of Krishna. Krishna's all attractive. And he attracts different people in different ways.

And different people, because of our material conditioning, there's different blocks. So I think as a general principle, to answer your question, with ourselves, with others and people in the outside world, we're looking at how, as Prabhupada said, his first purpose, I had it posted on my wall, to systematically propagate spiritual knowledge. So that means there's a system.

There's a way that everything and everybody is benefited. Some people can, you know, get on the elevator and zoom right to the top. Some people, it's a little slower.

But that's okay. It's not our position to judge. Our position is to help everyone as best we can to make the next step towards Krishna.

And I think that's the same whether we're talking about institutionally or individually or professionally. That's kind of our worldview. It's like you meet someone on book distribution.

An example that comes to mind. When devotees go on book distribution, you meet one person. And they're like, oh, I've been looking for this.

This is wonderful. And you give them a Bhagavad Gita. And you give them the science of self-realization.

And they're getting excited. And then sometimes, like, I know in Europe especially, you know, you see pictures. People go home and get both hands up here.

They're walking away with this big, you know, the whole Bhagavatam set. And they're ecstatic. And they write a check for $400.

And wow. You know, and you meet other people. And they say, no, I'm not interested.

Well, you know, can I give you this little free magazine? Okay, I'll take that. That they can do. Or maybe they won't even do that.

Okay, well, have a nice day. You can leave them with a good feeling. Oh, I met a Hare Krishna person.

This lady I met was very nice. Hare Krishna lady is very nice. So, one person comes with a vessel that can just take a few drops of water.

Or Krishna Bhakti. Somebody else is, they're ready for a full cup. Somebody else is ready to fill their barrel.

They want a full set of Bhagavatams. And we, we're the servants. We're not the controllers.

So, we're just trying to give a little bit of Krishna wherever we can. If someone can take more, we're ready to give them everything we can share in our hearts and that Guru's given us. But we can't judge.

You know, he has to be at this level. She has to be at that level. That's what calls obstacles.

And that causes a lot of tension among ourselves and with other people. And, and, and with outside world, you know, it can be, we can hurt our reputation and our relationships with people. That's, that's beautiful.

So, I'll just take one by one. You spoke a lot of points. I like the starting metaphor which you made of, there can be different levels at which people may practice.

So, I was thinking it could be like a ladder. Last time we discussed about a pyramid. So, our point is that we want to take people from one step up from where they are.

So, a standard, you use the word snapshot. So, it's, it's a beautiful point that sometimes we may equate a person with their present level. And then by, in a sense, reducing them to that level, we may judge and deride them.

So, but if we see that it's a progression and this is where the person is, let's see how I can help them move forward one step. So, I like the word standard, like a snapshot. And we could say like a ladder has different rungs.

So, whichever is the rung that that person is most comfortably situated on, we help them get there. Okay. You are at this rung.

This is good. You can come one step up. That's also good.

So, that was one point. And another point, there is this, I sometimes talk about this concept of digital and analog conceptions of bhakti. So, what I mean by that is digital is we, it's like one or zero.

It's either you have to take the complete package or you get out of here. So, but like what you explained, it's amazing that in Denver, you mentioned that somebody who is an atheist can come and also experience Krishna or experience something. And that also indicates the broadness of the temple.

So, if people want to just take one or two things, then we let them take that and let them stay connected in that way, at least. And encourage them. Encourage them in that way.

Just like if you have a child. You know, you have one child and they show some inclination towards music. You know, the parent encourages them.

The parent should encourage them in that way. Some other child, they're sitting, they're drawing. And, you know, compared to what an adult can do, it's completely useless.

But it's wonderful. And if you encourage them, they feel some sense of self-worth. And it's all about self-worth.

I mean, we're all about helping us reconnect with Krishna. Because Prabhupada says we're, you know, one sense we're worth less. We have no value until we connect with Krishna.

So, we're looking for that. So, encourage people. Whenever, you know, they love to sing, great, sing for Krishna.

Somebody doesn't like to sing, great, wash pots for Krishna, etc. Yes. But this approach of, you know, gradual elevation, like last time, I mentioned how Kalakant Prabhupada said that we have frozen our conception of Prabhupada and ISKCON in the 1970s instead of 1960s.

So, another way I felt is that our conception of Prabhupada and ISKCON is more based on the way it was, the model that was of preaching that was there in the early days in the West. When people just moved into the temple. In India, practically, nobody moved into the temple.

And still, Prabhupada was very warm and encouraging and appreciative of those who supported him, who became life members. So, Prabhupada was not necessarily, not always this one-zero kind of thing. Prabhupada wanted everybody to take as much as they could.

But if they couldn't, then whatever level they were engaging, he was appreciative of that. And even sometimes in those early days, I was, again, I mentioned last time, rereading the Leelam Rita, and there was one or two young devotees, and they were saying to Prabhupada, I want to advance quicker, I want to advance quicker. And Prabhupada was mentioning in his lectures that I told Robert he has to be patient.

And it takes some patience. So, that's there too. And again, we have to be really careful.

We don't judge people according to ourselves. In other words, let's say for me, I love to have these kind of conversations. I really like to meet people.

I'm not so good. I don't deity worship in the past, but I'm kind of a little, maybe hyperactive kind of a person. The idea for me, if my main service was to do four artiks a day, I'm not meditative enough.

I'm not Krishna conscious enough, perhaps, to do that service. That would be wrong for me. I just, I wouldn't be happy to have a very difficult time, just as an example.

If someone told me that's the only way to express my Krishna consciousness, that would really be unfair, untrue, unkind, and it would be an obstacle in my spiritual life. So, I can do some deity worship, but that can't be my main service. And someone else, again, has a propensity in a different kind of way.

Some people we know, like a lot of times we see with some of the younger generations, they see like teenagers, you know, sometimes, not all teenagers, but some, you know, they kind of like to hang around the temple and maybe they'll do a little bit of service. And, you know, it's like they don't really want to hear the lecture. But it's time for kirtan.

They get together with some of their friends. They all have, you know, eight-hour kirtans, 20-hour kirtans, two-day kirtans, stay-up-all-night-long kirtans. They love chanting.

And we see that in a lot of our younger people. So, we can either choose to stand around and say, well, you know, they chant, but they don't do any service. Or they like kirtan, why don't they chant japa? Or et cetera.

Or, you know, look, it's boys and girls sitting in the same room. This is nonsense. We can think like that.

Or we can think how wonderful it is they're attracted to Krishna's name. How can we encourage them? How can we show them support? And, of course, gradually help them take up some of the other aspects in Krishna consciousness. But, you know, they say I was reading something not too long ago about, like, you know, parenting kind of a guide.

And they were talking about how, I don't know how the system works in India, but in the U.S., at least when I was a kid, you know, you get your grades from your different classes. You get an A or a B or a C or a D or like that. Sometimes pluses and minuses in between.

And they were talking about typically, you know, the child comes home and shows their parents their grades. A, A, A, B minus, A, A. And many times the parents look and then they go, what's this B all about? Why did you get a B? You're smarter than that. Didn't you apply yourself? I told you you should have done more homework, et cetera, et cetera.

So they focus on the negative. They focus on, you know, rather than saying, oh, my God, this is one of five A's. How in the world did you do this? I'm so grateful.

Let's go out and get some ice cream, you know, something, you know. This is fantastic. I'm going to call your grandmother and tell her.

And you reinforce that sense, again, that sense of self-worth, that sense of being appreciated. The child knows they didn't get a B. The parent doesn't have to mention that they got a B. The parent doesn't have to say what's with this B. The student knows I got a B. If I get this much appreciation for five A's, Krishna, Krishna, how much appreciation, love, and for my family am I going to get if I get six A's next time? So they'll motivate themselves. But if the parent just focuses on the one B or the C or the D, whatever it is, that actually is not productive.

It's not helpful. So in the same way in Krishna consciousness, and I'll just give a simple example. I don't think I told this before.

When I was a brand new Bhakta, I remember coming to India on the bank of the Ganga in Mayapur, after taking bath and struggling to put on tilak with Ganges mud. And Lokanath Swami happened to be there. And I was a new Bhakta, and he, of course, was a sannyasi.

I mean, now we do some Seva together by his grace. He lets me do some service with him, by Prabhupada's grace. But in those days, he was a big, big sannyasi.

I just, the first time in India, and I'm trying to put on my tilak. And he just was nearby. And he looked at me and he said, Oh, you are putting on your tilak the way Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur did, without a mirror.

This is very nice. And just nobody. I'm just, you know, there was probably out of 500 devotees, I'm a nobody, just some skinny kid from America.

But he reached out and he said that thing to me, an insignificant thing about how I was putting tilak on. And it has such an effect on me. It really inspired me.

And I felt cared for. I felt, Oh, you know, I should try to do it even better. Like that, you feel motivated by the positive reinforcement.

And, you know, so much so that I probably told this story, you know, 50 times. Because it really affected me. And I think that that's what Krishna consciousness is all about, is just being kind of vessels of Krishna's kindness and Prabhupada's kindness and Guru's kindness and Lord Chaitanya's mood.

And wherever we see that little spark fanning it. That's beautiful. So encouraging is very important because everybody's also volunteer.

You know, with respect to studies or profession, you could say there is some obligation at one level. I have to do my job. I have to take care of my family.

But in many ways, devotion is entirely voluntary. So if there's no encouragement, then people can very easily go. Thank you for sharing that experience also.

So just one point about this, there is encouraging and there is judging. So at one level, you said we shouldn't judge. But isn't it a characteristic of the Kanishta Adhikari to judge? This person is a devotee.

Let me befriend them. This person is innocent. Let me share Krishna Bhakti with them.

This person is envious. Let me keep a distance from them. So isn't that a form of judging? I'm not sure if I heard you clearly.

You said so. Kanishta Adhikari, he sees this person is… Madhyam Adhikari, sorry. Madhyam Adhikari.

So he sees this person is a devotee. Let me criticize and be jealous of them. And he sees this person is innocent.

Let me think down upon them and understand that they are untouchable people and I should keep my distance entirely. Was that how the Shastra plays out? Oh God. It's beautiful.

Yeah. So we could say that there is a certain… We see Krishna and his representatives and we bow down to the Lord and we render service and we hear from those more advanced. We make friends with those who are peers, fellow devotees.

And if you're a friend, it means you care about somebody and you sacrifice for them and you serve them, you try to help them. And then they see the innocent people, we try to lift them up, not push them down in our mind or in our words, but try to lift them up. And then if there's people that are really inimical, okay, we avoid them.

It doesn't say we curse them. It doesn't say we condemn them. We avoid them.

We avoid those people. Yes. So now this is a good point.

So there is a certain amount of, we could say, discerning, but it should not be from a holier-than-thou attitude. Well, yes, exactly. Okay.

That's a good point. Now, this is a slightly different situation. Let's say if we are thinking how to engage people so that they can be encouraged to come toward Krishna.

But it is a slightly different setting where we are going to people who are doing certain things. Say, for example, there's a family festival, like a family traditional religious festival. So I would like to ask you, say, if I may ask, you are from a Jew background or a Christian background or what? I describe it as a non-practicing Christian background.

Okay. So I went to church with my family, but like maybe till I was about five years old, and then later just for some of the, they have what they call in the West summer camps, you know, your kid goes someplace and you go canoeing and swimming and things like that. That was run by a church.

But otherwise that was pretty much my whole exposure. Okay. So say, but suppose if you had some family friends and they're celebrating Christmas.

So even before you started your interfaith initiative, would you have, if they invited you, would you have any hesitation of going there and participating in that? Actually, it's interesting. I don't remember the exact chronology, but as a brand new devotee, a bhakta in the West that was starting to understand that much of my activities before I was a devotee were very materialistic and, and sinful and counterproductive to my spiritual upliftment. And I had a lot of habits that I was, was working my way through the first year or two.

And I don't remember exactly. I didn't go home. I didn't visit my family.

I lived a ways away. I wrote letters. I called them now and then.

I didn't cut them off by any means, but, but I didn't go back. But then when I was a little stronger, I think after I got initiated, so maybe it was about a year later, I started visiting at holidays and things like that, especially Christmas. Cause my family was kind of a, they celebrated Christmas, but they didn't do so in a religious way, but it was a big deal for them to have everybody come together.

So, you know, I would go back and I spent, I spent a few days with them and yeah, I think as most devotees do. Oh, okay. So in that sense, even if it is not explicitly a religious occasion, it's a social occasion.

It's a family occasion. So going forward with this, if we take it to individual level, there are different kinds of engagements. And if somebody has a close family member or relative who is, who is following an impersonalist path or who is following a, who is atheistic.

So how much should, how should a devotee deal with that? Say, for example, if we give them a book to read, they may give us a theistic book to read, or they may ask us, I'll read this book. You read this book. So, so how much should one try to engage with somebody like that? Any thoughts on that? Again, from my recent rereading of the Leela Amrita, when Prabhupada first came to America, he was with Sally Agarwal.

Yes. Living in her home. And I mentioned this last time, you know, he came there one time a little early and she said, Swamiji, we haven't cleaned up yet.

The smell of meat must be very disturbing. Prabhupada said, think nothing of it. Time, place, and circumstance.

These people were his hosts. He wanted to be respectful. And they were inviting people to their home.

People were coming to their home to hear about Krishna. This lady took him to all the newspapers to try to get some media coverage. She took him all the way, I think, to Pittsburgh, which was, I don't know, an hour drive, perhaps something like that.

They didn't think it was newsworthy, but then she brought him back to the local paper. And that's that first famous article. You know, Prabhupada's picture in the Butler Eagle, about this, you know, Swami coming.

That was, that was, that was Sally Ockelwald did that. And she arranged so many things. They told him how to, when he goes to New York, how to use the subway.

She took him to the grocery store so we could learn and understand how Americans live. So many services she rendered. So Prabhupada accepted those services, and he didn't criticize her unnecessarily.

It wasn't appropriate. And, and, and Prabhupada, there's a picture of Prabhupada when her son was first standing. There's a picture of Prabhupada, this huge smile on his face.

He's with this lady who's got a baby, and she's enjoying that her son is learning to stand. So time, place, and circumstance. You know, Prabhupada was with them, and he was respectful.

He understood what was important to them. And he was a Krishna conscious person. You know, Prabhupada said, we should be perfect ladies and gentlemen.

He was a perfect gentleman. I'm a guest in their home. I treat the family members with respect.

And then later, Prabhupada went to New York, and he was staying in this ashram with Dr. Mishra. Dr. Mishra was a complete Mayavadi. He was an impersonalist.

And, and he would let Prabhupada chant sometimes, but rarely would he let Prabhupada talk. They were philosophical adversaries. And at the same time, he was Prabhupada's host.

Prabhupada used to cook for him. And there's beautiful, beautiful expressions of appreciation from Dr. Mishra that are in the Leelamrit about how Swamiji brought me back to health. And he says things like his, you know, his prashadam was just glorious.

And he speaks very flowery words. But Prabhupada sometimes would sit in the back with his child, or listen, you know, waiting for this lecture to end, and then they would ask him to do kirtan. So, according to the circumstances, then Prabhupada certainly wasn't completely happy.

He tried to get to someplace he did as quickly as possible. But in the meantime, he did the best he could. So, I think it's a similar situation.

Maybe we go home in our family, and we know so many devotees. The mother becomes a devotee. The father becomes a devotee.

The sister becomes a devotee. But we don't all have that kind of a situation. you know, any kind of, I think, I think the main point is any kind of relationship we have, we should try to make it as Krishna conscious, or as spiritual, or as sattvic, or at least as respectful as possible.

Yeah. Depending on the opportunity. Again, like fill that vessel.

So, the person who's got an atheistic family member, you know, you can go home, and you can get in a big fight with them, and disturb everybody, and all of that. And everybody just walks away thinking these Christian people are just angry, and bitter, and, you know, self-absorbed. Or you can go and be a little respectful, and maybe avoid the things you don't agree upon.

And maybe there's a niece or nephew there that are really thinking, well, I like what uncle, auntie, so-and-so said. you know, And they hear, and they learn, and they appreciate how nice you are. Maybe about the atheistic person, perhaps.

Some atheists are quite gentlemanly. you know, by your other ways of preaching, they're attracted. You know, and of course, depending on the situation, almost all of us, I would think especially in India, we can bring prashadam, Christian prashadam, and they'll appreciate that.

I know I used to go home, you know, my family were not vegetarian, and they would sometimes, you know, they would cook their stuff. I'd try to get, I'd say, my mother, look, I can make the main dish. I can do this.

I can do that. And I would cook a whole lot of stuff and share that. But, you know, until the very end of their lives, you know, nobody really became a vegetarian in my family, but I still gave him as much Christian prashadam as I could.

Okay. So, you know, there are some points which are for devotees, like say, somebody taking meat. Sometimes there's a, of course, in, I think in the West, it is different because almost everybody takes meat as a part of their meal, but that sometimes becomes like a very strong judgmental issue.

It's like, it's almost like, I don't want to have anything to do with you. If, if you are eating meat, so there are two distinct things. One is there could be ideological differences and there could be, with respect to culture or practices, that person might believe something, which is radically different from what we believe, or that person might practice something, which is contrary to what we practice.

So if I hear you, right, what you're saying is that don't make a big issue out of it. Just see how you can relate with them in a cordial way and move forward. I mean, for us, it's a big issue.

You give the example of meeting. I mean, it's disgusting. It's horrible.

You know, you, even you, you, you look at the simple book, a higher taste. It's bad for the environment. It's bad for our bodies.

It's bad for the food supply. It's bad for our karma. You know, it's, it's horribly painful for the animals.

There's a whole industry based around raising and slaughtering and, and, and, and consuming and pushing people into a meat diet. It's terrible, terrible, terrible. And, you know, as Jesus said in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner.

So if we allow ourselves to hate the sinner, in other words, if we, if, if we, if we say, okay, I, I, I'll have nothing to do with this person, whether they're a family member or someone at work or someone we meet because they do this sinful thing. Well, where, where's Lord Chaitanya's movement? I mean, if I remember correctly, I mean, I think Lord Chaitanya said everyone can join him on the street as long as they're following the four regulative principles of Chinese 16 rounds, right? That's what he said. I remember correctly when the Chan Kazi made a big deal, Lord Chaitanya refused to see him because he was a, you know, because he was a Muslim.

And if I remember correctly, Haridas Dakar was rejected because he was born in a Muslim family. And if I remember that the six Goswamis are a figment of our imagination, because certainly Lord Chaitanya never had anything to do with people that he associated so closely with, with meat eaters and fallen people. I mean, the whole mood of a Mahaprabhu's movement for ourselves, I mean, I mean, certainly Prabhupada, I mean, imagine Prabhupada just came from Vrindavan.

We may think, oh, you know, you know, I've been a devotee. Maybe a lot of us come from families that weren't vegetarian. So now, you know, we know meat's a horrible thing.

Prabhupada just came from Vrindavan. He's a lifelong vegetarian, eating only Krishna Prasadam, came directly from Vrindavan, went to speak of his spiritual consciousness. And we can't even try to understand his spiritual consciousness.

And he lands in Butler, Pennsylvania, and the place he's got to stay in his house to eat meat. And, you know, I mean, the kitchen sink's full of chicken bones. I mean, how disgusting is that? But Prabhupada focused on his mission.

He had a deeper purpose in mind. And with Dr. Mishra, how disgusting. He's got to be in one sense, you know, be with this person who's an offender.

It's disgusting in the sense he's offended Krishna. You know, Krishna's not real. Krishna doesn't have a face.

Krishna doesn't have a consort. You know, the spiritual world is illusion. All of those things that are really philosophically very difficult.

We're offended by those. But, for the sake of preaching, for the sake of being compassionate, you know, we, we, we look beyond those as Prabhupada did. Again, looking at Prabhupada's early history and continued Prabhupada's mood in New York City.

So many people are coming, so many kind of crazy people, people with drugs, and certainly all were eating meat almost. And, you know, boys and girls mixing illicitly. But Prabhupada saw beyond that.

He saw the spirit soul. I'll tell you a quick, funny story. I just read yesterday.

Brahmananda Prabhu, when he was first becoming a devotee, Bruce, big, big guy. He'd been to India. And it mentions in the Leela Marita, he had a girlfriend of some sort.

It doesn't get into details. How did he do that? He's in America. She's in India.

We had a girlfriend. He still had her picture. So he mentioned to Prabhupada, I've been to India.

And among things he mentioned, I have a girlfriend in India. Prabhupada said, oh, let me see her picture. He said, I have a picture.

Prabhupada said, let me see. So he showed Prabhupada the picture. Prabhupada looked, he said, oh, she's not very pretty.

Most Indian girls are much more beautiful than she is. That was Prabhupada's response. And Brahmananda says, you know, at that point, he said, he kind of like broke my attachment to this girl.

Even Prabhupada doesn't think she's pretty. He said, I don't know if I ever looked at that picture again. So, I mean, Prabhupada could have said so many things.

You know, it's just amazing. You know, he didn't say to him, oh, girlfriends are nonsense and this and that. Mukunda and Janaki, Prabhupada initiated them and they weren't even married yet.

They came back the next day and they said, Swami, can we talk to you? And he said, yes. They said, well, you know, now we're initiated. He said, yes.

They said, we're thinking we should, you know, is there love? I think they actually asked, is there love in Christian consciousness? And Prabhupada said, I think you're asking you want to get married. I'm paraphrasing. They said, yes.

So then Prabhupada, the second yajna in ISKCON history, the first one was initiation. The second one was Mukunda and Janaki's wedding. He explained to them, you got to go buy a red sari and you got to bring your family members and that whole beautiful exchange with Joan, who later became Jamuna about how to cook a big, big feast.

And Prabhupada did this amazing feast. He's a sannyasi. But he knew, I'm transplanting a whole culture.

Part of the culture is marriage. Marriage is a sacred vow. It's the foundation of society, you know, family life and all of that.

So he made a big deal out of it because he knew it was a big deal for his disciples. He knew it was going to be a big deal for ISKCON. So he didn't judge, you know, I'm a sannyasi.

The goal is to be renounced. It's like, no, where you are, you're young people. Most young people need to be married.

Their relationships are going to be stronger if they have a community and a culture that supports them. And if we make this a big ceremony and it's just beautiful, it's beautiful. This is an example of, I understand what you're saying is that we have to look at people at their level and see what raises them up.

And Prabhupada would do something which is radically different from what a traditional sannyasi would do for that purpose. Because he knew the purpose. He knew the purpose.

Yeah. What's the system? We can say, the standard is you're a sannyasi. You shouldn't be doing these kind of things.

And Prabhupada even writes about it in his Bhagavad Gita. He probably talked about it in some lectures too. You know, sometimes people criticize it's not appropriate for sannyasi.

And he said, this is important for, he uses a term, a man in an immature stage, a young man. You know, for most of them, some are more renounced as you are, you know, brahmacharya ashram, but most people don't do that. They're going to want to get married.

So that's the appropriate thing. So should a sannyasi engage in this? Generally, no. A sannyasi should be, you know, a little aloof from these things.

But what's the real purpose of sannyas? To preach, to teach, to help people come to Krishna. So if, as the founder of our movement, he did what was necessary to help everybody, whatever level they're at, to make some advancement. Yes.

So with this, with respect to engaging, there is a, I just thought of one question. There is sometimes a demonization of the modern world. And we could say almost romanticization of the traditional way of living, or you could say almost a rural way of living.

And we could say certainly that at one level, the modern urbanized way of living is, it demands a lot of energy and it provides a lot of distractions. At the same time, realistically speaking, most devotees, their jobs, their careers are in the cities. So how do you see this kind of engaging with the world in terms of, say, where we live and how much we participate in our professions or in our social situations? Let's say I'm a doctor and you come to me and we do some tests and you have low blood pressure.

And I say, well, you have low blood pressure. You need a medication that's going to raise your blood pressure. I don't particularly like that medicine.

I'm only going to give you medicine that's going to lower your blood pressure more. What kind of doctor? Okay. Or you come to see me and I do a little analysis and I realize you have kidney problems.

But I say, I prefer to work with heart patients. So I'll schedule you for open heart surgery. You don't really need it, but I'm going to give you heart surgery.

What kind of doctor am I? I'm not a doctor. I'm a selfish kind of a medical exploiter. Isn't it? Yeah.

It's interesting because you look at Prabhupada. As you were asking the question, two things came to my mind. One is, Prabhupada said our duty is to go to the cities.

Palladmarai talked about that. There's many saintly people that they go to and they live in the forest to cultivate their own spiritual life. But Prabhupada comes, Vaishnavas, we go to the cities.

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur was right there in Calcutta and he went to places. Prabhupada went to New York. Why didn't he go to the Himalayas? He went to New York and then he went to LA and then he went to Montreal and then he sent disciples to London.

He went to where the people were. At the same time, in his seven purposes, again, I moved it because I was in another interview yesterday, but I have it posted usually on my wall. One of his purposes, I think it's number six, to promote, five or six, to promote a simpler, more natural way of life.

Prabhupada went to New Vrindavan. He spent weeks at a time in New Vrindavan. He visited Gitanagar and he wanted to see these natural places and he talked about in the future, the society, to use modern terms, is not so sustainable.

So, he went to the cities. He told us we should preach in the cities and at the same time, he wanted to demonstrate an alternative. So, I don't think, I don't think we should either romanticize or demonize.

I think we should, you're so good at all these terms, you'll come up with a nice term, something like, you know, practicalize or something. Utilize. Utilize.

There you go. Utilize. So, you know, some people, they live in the cities and we have to be there to try to uplift them and show them how to live a Krishna conscious life.

And like these days, with the whole COVID-19, I was just walking in a, just yesterday, took a walk. I was walking down some new kind of a downtown area in a development near where I live. So many empty stores and apartments up top.

And this was kind of like the new trend in building. Because a lot of people now, in my generation, before me, my parents in America, everybody wanted to move to what they call the suburbs. They wanted to get out and have a little grass and have a lawn and have a garage.

And that it kind of, a lot of people, many, many people still live like that, but it's a little less popular. The trend had been kind of, no, we want to stay downtown, be in the city. You know, you live upstairs, like in an urban environment.

You know, you come downstairs and there's the grocery store and there's the neighbors and everything's condensed. So all this new, a lot of new construction now is building those urban environments until COVID-19. And now it's like, oh, I don't want to be next to people.

I don't want to have to go downstairs with a mask and I can't walk outside without seeing a hundred people or a thousand people. So, you know, the material world is like forcing people here and there. But for devotees, if people are in the country, we want to be in the country.

And of course, we want to show them that simpler lifestyle. But people in the cities, we go to the cities. And some of us may be really inclined.

Some devotees, they come to Krishna Consciousness and immediately they say, I want to give my life to help develop Govardhanika Village. Or I want to go, I want to, you know, be in New Vrindavan. I want to milk the cows.

I want to be out there. I want to, you know, grow hay. And that's how I want to serve Krishna.

And other people, it's different. So according to what comes natural to us and according to the need. But I don't think we should romanticize one or demonize another.

You know, ultimately, in one sense, this is why Krishna Consciousness is so profound and wonderful. In one sense, it's all rotten. The whole material world is rotten.

Everything's rotten. The mode of goodness is rotten. The mode of passion is rotten.

It's all maya. It's all lower energy. But in the other sense, it's all good.

Because it's the creation of Krishna to help the living entities reconnect with him. And even the mode of passion, you know, it's like nectar in the beginning and the Gita says and like poison at the end. Even that is good because the person that's starting to taste the horrible effects of their materialistic, sometimes sinful activity, that's also good because Krishna's arranged a system that they learn.

Oh, that, you know, you touch the fire, you get burned. So is getting burned good or is it bad? In one sense, it's terrible. The soul's supposed to be perfectly is, pure and happy, satchitananda.

Why is the soul suffering? It's horrible that the soul's suffering. At the same time, if that suffering is helping that conditioned soul realize I'm missing something, I'm in the wrong place, is there a higher purpose? Why am I suffering? Then it's good. So in the same way, you know, the countryside is very good, but, you know, if you move to the country, you get attached to the trees and this and that, you come back as a tree.

What good is that? Or if you live in the city, you know, which is a place of passion and ignorance, it's not a good place. If you get enamored by that and you get bewildered by that, well then, you know, that's terrible. But if in that place you share Christian consciousness with so many people, 26 2nd Avenue, our home, the home, today is incorporation day.

Today or tomorrow, depending on the calendar. Where did Providence incorporate? 26 2nd Avenue. You read those histories, trucks driving by and noise and children and dogs and so many distractions.

A funeral parlor across the street. It was a really lower mode of nature. But that's where Christian consciousness took off because Prabhupāda made it transcendental.

So nothing really is romantic, nothing in one sense. In one sense, nothing really is demoniac, you know, in the sense that we shouldn't think something is beyond the reach of Christian consciousness. I mean, the śāstra says devotee of God, but having them go to hell doesn't matter to them as long as they can serve Krishna.

Yeah. This is a very good point that most of our vibrant centers are even now in the urban places. That's where we are reaching out.

So there is this idea that bhakti is sometimes seen as anti-modern, that modernity is bad and bhakti is to go against the stream of modernity. Now, earlier, I used to often in my talks, maybe 10 years ago, I often talk about the polarization between say Indian culture and Western culture. But now after I have spent some time in the West, I maybe have modified that polarization.

If at all, I talk about more of materialistic culture and spiritual culture. So it's, you could say modernity maybe is more materialistic than in the past, but modernity also has its sattva, has its spirituality. So how much do you think bhakti has to be seen? One reason why devotees hesitate to engage with the world is that they see the world as maya, that this is Kali Yuga and the whole world is filled with illusion.

So that often leads to the idea that it's a hostile place and the current of bhakti is meant to go in an opposite direction from the way the current of the modernity is going. But then we could also say that it was not that in tradition the current was always going toward bhakti. There also it could go towards some mundane religiosity.

There also it could go to so many other directions. So any thoughts on this Prabhu? Yes, you ask wonderful questions. Again just re-reading Leela Amrita, Prabhupada took some of his young devotee followers, I think it's before the initiation, he went, Dr. Mishra had some kind of ashram out in the country, outside of New York City.

And they went there and they made prasadam. And some of Mishra's people were there too, they had a big kirtan, joyful kirtan. And one of the devotees or some of them were on a morning walk with Prabhupada or maybe evening, they were watching the sun go down or the sun rise.

And someone commented to Prabhupada, isn't the sunset beautiful or the sunrise beautiful? And Prabhupada said, we're not so much interested in the beauty of the sunshine, of the sunrise, we're interested in the beautiful person who made the sun rise. So, you know, when you say bhakti is anti-modern, I disagree with that. I think bhakti is anti-maya.

That's what bhakti is. We're anti-maya. You know, someone I know, in my early days, my sense was bhakti was was anti-grahastha.

You know, grahastha ashram for the first, I came in 75, so at least for the first five, 10 years after that, maybe longer, you know, we used to, you don't hear it at all these days, I hope, nowhere, but maybe a few pockets. It was ridiculous and wrong and hurtful. As someone was getting married, the term of the day was fall-down.

When they get married, they're falling down. Like for brahmachari to get married to a nice Vaishnavi and a Christian conscious environment and to take vows, to take care of each other and to serve Krishna and to raise Christian conscious children, that was a fall-down, rather than saying, no, this is actually for most people. Again, if one is able to sustain a renounced life, that's perfect, that's best, but most people can't do that, and therefore going from what really for most is more a student life into making a commitment as a grihasta and be responsible man and woman and all the things that entails and continuing and serving Krishna, that's a move in the right direction.

But if we're thinking we're anti-grihasta or we're anti-modern or we're anti-this or anti-west, okay, we're anti-west, well why did Prabhupada come to the west? And you say anti-modern, I'm just sitting here watching you on the screen, I'm really, really grateful that those thoughtful people in the 16th century, at the time of Lord Chaitanya, invented Zoom and invented computers and invented the internet so that we could use those traditional things to have this wonderful conversation with each other, because otherwise if they hadn't invented those things long ago, we certainly have to reject them because we know we're anti-modern. You see the kind of ridiculous thing again, we're anti-modern. And Prabhupada was asked that in many, many different contexts, you know, you criticize the material world but you're using a microphone, you're using airplanes, and Prabhupada said we don't reject these things, we reject the materialistic mentality that these things are meant for my selfish, sensual enjoyment.

Right? Oh, Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna says, Krishna, I reject. I'm anti-war.

I'm anti-politics. I'm anti-running the kingdom. I'm anti-using strength for anything other than just what makes me happy.

I'm anti-this. Prabhupada came to New York in the middle of the Vietnam War and he's reading from the Bhagavad Gita and they're challenging him. So what do you think about the Vietnam War? Prabhupada said it's not the Vietnam War.

There are always going to be wars. The principle behind it. So the principle is not anti-modern or anti-traditional this and that, anti-West.

India is the home of Vedic culture and for those of us that live there, visited there, a lot of contaminated stuff in India these days. A lot of contaminated stuff. You know, it's not, you know, the pure Vedic culture is not in India these days.

But there's a lot of very strong things that are there coming from the Vedic culture, the Vaishnav culture. And the same thing when you go to the West, there's a lot of nonsense going on in the West, but there's a lot of good things. A lot of very, very good things.

So, so, Prabhupada, you know, we should, Johnny Kapana would quote, you take gold even from a filthy place. So, you know, I heard Prabhupada said one time, there's something to this effect that my, my, in my, within my movement, like the culture is Indian, and my management is American, or Western, or modern, you know, whatever term you might like. So, take, take the best from everywhere.

You know, and in some ways, you know, if India, as it seems to be doing in many ways, develops better management systems than they had in the West, well, we'll take those for Krishna. You know, and if America learns to become more environmentally conscious, and better at promoting a simpler, more natural way of life, which is our purpose given by Prabhupada, we'll take, you know, maybe India's just building high-rises and destroying the environment. I'm just giving a hypothetical.

And we're going to take the good from the West. You know, and Prabhupada, he went to Russia. It's an atheistic place.

But he, but he came away, and he wrote in Ishopanishad and talked about these other places. We're promoting spiritual communism. Yes.

From each according to an ability to each according to their need, but with Krishna in the center. Yeah. So we're anti-Maya.

We're not even anti-Maya because we know Maya has a purpose. We're pro-Krishna. That's the way we are.

Yeah. That's a very good way of putting it. And I like this.

You know, we could say we were anti-Grahastha before and so many other things like that. So just moving forward with respect to Yukta Vairagya, that's a very well established principle and Prabhupada also talked about the East-West synthesis, the blind man, the lame man, but when you talk about modernity, there are certain things, say for example, the fast paced demanding lifestyle, where people often spend more time at their workplace than at their homes or for their spiritual life. And then there are certain things like, you know, there is a constant glamorization of material things.

There is a, you could say abundance or surfeit of entertainment and triviality that way. So we could say that there are certain things. At one level, I recently started studying a little bit of the history of India.

So I found that sometimes some devotees would speak that in the past, if, if you were living as far, if people lived in farming, they just did some irrigation for three, four months a year and they had enough grains for the, for the whole year. And that was how it was, but now we have to work throughout the year, but I realized it's not that simple because if there are droughts and there are famines and then it could be sometimes just to get one bucket of water, one may have to go a long distance away. So it's, and you know, there are so it's not necessary that life is, life was say easier in the past and it's tougher now.

Life is, maybe we could say more complicated now and life was a little simpler in the past, but simpler does not necessarily mean easier and complicated does not necessarily mean tougher. In many ways, in today's times, our basic needs are provided for much more easily. Like since I'm developing, I'm living in the rural settings.

They realize that to just without electricity, without flowing water, every small thing takes time. So in that sense, I don't know whether, whether even, although we could say modernity is fast paced and other things and very demanding, but that criticism also has to be contextualized in the whole of history, not just in selective ways, but also in the way that we And I think it goes back again to seeing that, you know, it's not so much modern and antiquity and all of that. It's God centered and not God centered.

That's kind of like the underlying, that's the foundation, that's the theme, that's the stream that, that we run through. So you've got, I mean, you look, look at Chaitanya and Charita and Rita and I, I'm not so well studied, but you have the example of certain devotees that were fabulously wealthy and people criticized them, but then they were exalted devotees of, of Christianity was the classic example. Yeah.

And then, then you have other devotees. What was the devotee that just made a, made banana leaf pots or clay pots? So totally poverty stricken, but, but exalted soul, Then you have the example of, of great, great, great scholars. You know, the six Goswamis and Jiva Goswami, I think over time, around the world, people are going to start hearing and learning more about what, what a phenomenal scholar, even from the material context, you know, he wrote so many books and so, such, such deep, deep thought.

And then you have the example of the illiterate Brahmin that Lord Chaitanya came across, I think in South India, who was reading the Gita, trying every day. And then you have And Lord Chaitanya told him, you've understood the Gita. As he explained, he's crying, tears come to his eyes.

Cause when he tries to read, his, his meditation is how Krishna's become the chariot driver of Arjuna. And he can't withhold it. He can't withhold the tears.

So again, I think, I think that that's that same principle is there that there are a lot of negative aspects to modernity. I mean, again, COVID-19, I mean, that's a product somehow of the global environment. And, you know, it's this thing started in China and it's spread all around the world.

And, you know, people huddled together in the, in the cities. If everybody lived in a farm, your closest neighbor was a hundred meters or a mile away. How would this be spreading? It wouldn't be spreading.

It'd be too isolated. But because we're so cramped together, so modernity is kind of a concomitant factor. There's horrible disease.

And you and I, because of this terrible situation, you and I are having this conversation on Zoom. Yes. I remember I asked one, I asked Mukunda Maharaj, I said, Maharaj, one time something was going on and we lived together in Washington, D.C. for a couple years and he moved to Australia after I'd moved from Denver to Washington to be with him to work in communications.

And I asked him one time, I said, Maharaj, how do you maintain your determination in the midst of so many kind of obstacles that sometimes come up in Christian consciousness? And he told me he asked a similar thing of Prabhupada one time or maybe Prabhupada just gave this example that just like a person, and just see the modern example that Prabhupada has given. He said, just like the stockbroker, the man that buys and sells shares of stocks, when the market's going up, he's making money. When the market's going down, he's making money.

So, when we're successful, we're devoting everything to Krishna. When there seems to be no external success, we're still dedicating everything to Krishna. When we're in a very modern materialistic environment, or maybe we have a nature that that's the kind of environment that we're in, it's a destiny to one extent or the other, it's our situation, we do it for Krishna.

If we're in, you know, if suddenly that disappears and tomorrow there's no more electricity on the planet, life doesn't come to an end, we still, we do everything for Krishna. For a lot of people, life would come to an end. How can I live without electricity? But for devotees, I know for me, it would be an awfully big challenge.

But at least I would do my best to understand I can still serve Krishna. Maybe I can't read at night, but I can read when the sun comes up, etc. Hmm.

It's a beautiful examples. So basically everything we could say in the material world has good and bad. And we just take the good.

And it's so another example like I give is that bhakti is not about turning back the clock. It is more about, we could say, turning on our compass, the turning on a spiritual compass within us of how can I go toward Krishna from here? Or how can I go? How can I help others move toward Krishna? So to engage with technology is something which is Prabhupada did that and we are doing it. Now, how about engaging with say current cultural trends, current intellectual, intellectual trends, and that way, how much can devotees engage with this? Say, for example, with respect to intellectual trends, sometimes in back to Godhead, we would have the Vedic observer column and we would.

So I, I, sorry. So many of the things that you write about Christian consciousness and the modern world. Yes.

So now that is generally, we take an incident and we analyze it and we present it to But actually to seriously engage with modernity, that there was earlier an attitude that it's all Maya, just rejected and just focus on studying Krishna Bhakti and sharing Krishna Bhakti. But we do see that there are thoughtful people and even, and people have come up with their own thought systems, which we may say they are wrong, but those are the prevailing thought systems in today's world. So how far can say devotees engage with contemporary trends? I'm not talking about trends in terms of fashions, but more in terms of thought systems or world views.

I can see that the Goswami and others, they did engage with the Rasa tradition, which was prevalent at that time, the Natya tradition that was there at that time. So then a lot of dramas were written. I mean, there was a because Dramaturgy was quite prominent in Bengal at that time.

So there is a precedent for that. What do you think about that being done in today's world? Something similar? In a sense, it's almost saying, it's asking the question. So we've kind of talked about engaging the gross material energy.

Yes. Modernity, you know, microphones, airplanes, automobiles, cars, electricity, Zoom. That's all in one sense gross.

What about the subtle material energies of ideas and thought processes and sociology and anthropology and political science and all those things? Can we engage those? And I think from a strictly philosophical point, first of all, of course. Otherwise, it's what good is yukta-varāga if it's not telling us how to engage everything in Krishna's service and how everything is connected to Krishna, gross and subtle. Now, the question is, how expert are we? Just like, say, you and I may talk about how, you know, we should be able to engage wealthy people.

But if I'm a young brahmachari who's still attracted to those things, or whatever, I'm young or old, brahmachari guy, if I'm too attracted to those things, it's not good for me. It's not good for me. I might have mentioned this last time, I know there's one in the Leelamrita, one devotee, I think I did, but it's worth telling again.

One devotee came to Prabhupāda after they left Krishna consciousness, they gave up their spiritual practice, and they came back and said to Prabhupāda, you know, you sent me to this particular place, but I knew if you did, I would fall down. Prabhupāda's response was, why didn't you tell me? So we have to be a little sensitive about where we fit in. I gave the example of myself doing dhītī worship all day long.

I love the dhītīs, and I'm inspired by the dhītīs, and I do a little dhītī puja, but it's not the thing I should be doing all day long, it's not my nature. So in the same way, some of us to say, you know, to what extent should we engage, let's say, with modern intelligentsia, modern issues and things like that, should we all do that? No. Because some of us, we don't have, that's not our tendency, we don't have the capacity for doing that.

But for those devotees that do, I would say absolutely, we should engage that ability to interact with others, that just like, you know, we're using, let's say, I go to New Vrindavan sometimes as part of my GVC responsibilities, and they interact with the neighbors. And, you know, maybe they share, you know, stories about, you know, how's the waterfall, and what did you do to try to, you know, there's another kind of insect came this year, and how did you deal with it, and, you know, whatever. You know, they're interacting according to that local situation, and they local inspiration.

So some of us, we think and act more on those realms. We have the ability to do that. Prabhupada met a lot of very, very big people, and he interacted with those people.

He met, you know, policemen, and he met mayors, and he met, he met, you know, religious leaders, and nuns, and philosophers, and professors, and communist leaders, and in every instance, he engaged with them philosophically, intellectually, and discussed Krishna conscious points with them, and look, and because as Prabhupada also said, I mean, Krishna says in the Gita, right, we follow whatever great men does people follow. So Prabhupada was also very interested in influencing the intelligent class of men, the leader, different classes of leaders in society, because if those people take up a little Krishna consciousness, then other people will follow suit. So if we have the ability to interact with people in that way, and just like if you're going to give a, like in communications principle, if I'm going to give a Sunday feast, and I walk into the lecture, and it's a crowd full of Indian people of Hindu background, okay, I'm going to speak a certain way.

If I walk in, and that particular week, it's a bunch of 20-year-old, you know, American kids who've never been in a temple in their life, they just came over from their college class, I'm going to speak a little, I'm not going to talk a whole lot of stories about Krishna, or quote Sanskrit verses, I'm going to talk about where they're coming from. I adapt myself according to the audience, and I have to be able to communicate to them on their, maybe I'm thinking like this, but if they're here, if I speak here, no communications, we're going to miss each other. So I have to understand time, place, and circumstance, what kind of language, probably talked about the Vietnam War, probably talked about sunsets, probably you listen to lectures, probably talked about your President Nixon, and you talked about before that your President Johnson, you went in and you talked about our current leaders, and how they're not doing this, they're not doing that, very much aware of what's going on in the world, because he was able, he wanted to be able to meet people where they are and help them move up.

So for a certain percentage of members of our society, to be able to do that, to interact with intelligentsia on religious levels, on philosophical levels, on scriptural levels, on religious levels, on journalistic levels, on academic levels, and as a social critic, those are, those are very good. We should use those skills in Krishna service. Hmm.

I like the words using skills over here. So it is those who have the skills. It's like, how much should a devotee learn music? Now, at the basic level, we know, but if somebody has that inclination and that ability, then they can specialize.

So similarly, we could say that devotees can have a basic awareness of the world, but if you want to go more into intellectual trends and they should have that intellectual skill, intellectual nature, and then they can do that. Yes. And just like with everything else we do, they have to be careful because there's always a tendency.

Okay. Let's say somebody has an ability to speak in front of big crowds, whatever they are, whoever they are. So it's nice to speak in front of big crowds.

It's a great opportunity to speak in front of big crowds. And you're going to get some fame. You're going to get some adoration.

You're going to get some distinction. People are going to come up afterwards and tell you how wonderful you are. And there's a real danger of becoming influenced by that.

The false ego is still there. The desire to enjoy. The desire to be worshipped ourselves and not to worship Krishna.

It's all just under the surface. So we always have to be very, very careful. Just like, you know, a person, I mentioned earlier, like Rajasthashram.

It's a wonderful opportunity to become Krishna conscious. But if you start thinking this is my wife, this is my house, this is my kids, this is my bank balance, you know, no Swami is going to tell me I should donate to the temple. Nobody is going to tell me I should get up early in the morning.

I'm the king of my palace. You're back in the cycle of birth and death. We become forgetful again.

So as Prabhupada writes in the Bhagavad Gita, there's danger even on the royal roads. So we have to be cautious. And that's why if we're doing, you know, maybe we talk about this next time, interfaith work, or like you do interacting with intelligentsia.

You know, Tutta Karmaprabhu, he goes to big conferences with people about what with his work with forbidden archaeology. Some of those people are spiritual. Some of those people are not.

Some of those people are religious. Some of those people are not. But there's some shared purpose that he has.

There's some benefit in advancing the Krishna conscious movement. So he does that. But if he or I or you or anybody else suddenly finds, you know, not suddenly, usually gradually, we find it, you know, I'm actually liking being with those people more than these people.

And, you know, if some doubt, if some weakness is coming in, then, you know, I have to be careful. Material energy is powerful and it can, without preserving our Krishna conscious in a very careful way, as Prabhupada said, there's danger in every step. So be bold and be careful.

Take risks, but don't be foolish. I think that's a very good principle to keep in mind. Be bold and be careful.

So it is like cautious courage. We could say, in fact, engaging with the world. We could say that's the basic principle that if we don't, if we're not engaging the world and there's really no courage, we are trying to stay in our safe zone and the world may not come to us.

There were a few people who will come because they are interested to us, but in many ways it is our purpose to get the world interested in Krishna. Yes. And also remember that different people have different ways of doing that.

There may be some devotee in the temple who's a little shy, a little bit introspective, and their way of spreading Krishna consciousness is to worship the deities gorgeously or to cook wonderful prasad and to be shared with people or to clean the temple very nicely or to clean my home very nicely so my my husband, you know, can we have nice programs at our home and you know, he speaks very nicely because he's one who's more bold whatever it is to see where where's our niche or our niche where we can where we can contribute the internet society for Krishna consciousness. That's true. Yes.

So so that could be one part of the both the courage and the caution courage is that this is where my interest is this was one issues that's where I can be more enterprising and then we have to protect our spirituality protect our consciousness. So, you know, the best one of the one of the best ways to pretend we have to go deep in our own Krishna conscious practice. We go deep and then we broaden ourselves with the many many connections with devotees that you know can help us and help us through their friendship help us through their through their watching us help us through you know, we need to have people that can come up to us and say, you know, Chaitanya Prabhu, I'm noticing you're spending a lot more time out there you don't seem as enthusiastic to talk to devotees or Nuttama, you know, you're going to all these conferences but you know, when's the last time you went to the temple or you know, whatever, just as an example that there's people there to check and balance to help us that's that's critically important as well.

Okay, makes sense. So, this could be a point where if we can go further today like with the niche, you know, you have found a niche in interfaith outreach. Would you like to discuss this today or would you like to have a separate session on this? Why don't we have another session because actually I'm getting ready in a couple hours.

I'm speaking to 15 people who work who are the directors of diocese in the United States who are in charge of their interfaith outreach and then they're going to speak to them for about three hours to talk about Krishna consciousness and Hinduism and Vaishnavism and why we do interfaith. So, I actually have to get ready for that. next time we talk I can share a little bit of what that experience was like and we can talk more particularly if you'd like to look at some of the things that, you know, interfaith.

I mean, I'm sitting here, I won't talk about next week, but I have a book, this is a book called, it was actually the same year as the 50th anniversary of ISKCON was the 50th anniversary of what's called Vatican II, which was they did a complete kind of reformulation of the Catholic Church in many ways and there's one particular docket called Nostra Aetate, which they basically came out and said, you know, we don't have a monopoly on truth, which previously had been there and was kind of the position of every religious organization in the world and they were very bold, so I went to a couple, I have some context, so this is a book, I wrote a chapter in this book, there's many, many, but I wrote one and, you know, lots of opportunities are there like that, so we can talk about that more next time we talk. Yes, so that will be wonderful, I look forward to that. I'll try to quickly summarize, I think we went over a lot of subjects, but broadly we talked about engaging with the world and then you mentioned this point of how we shouldn't judge others and where they are, that is like a snapshot, so rather than reducing them to where they are, we see that how can there be a progression, each other than looking at the standard they are at, we can see what is the system in which they can fit, by which they can rise upward.

That's the video, not just the photograph, but we want to see the video, we want to see that. Okay, yeah, that's a good way of putting it, not just the photograph and then it can also be that some people may engage only in one or two ways in bhakti, they might just come for classes or they might just do some worship, but they might, they might, they might just do kirtan, but not the philosophy. So rather than seeing bhakti in a digital way as a one zero kind of thing, we can offer them whatever they want and encourage them to move forward.

The key thing is that we need to encourage because it's voluntary and we shouldn't judge you differentiated between say, if we start judging, there's a difference between judging and discerning discerning is more for our protection. Judging is more the whole year than our attitude. And then from there, we discussed about how devotees, if they're working in their professional lives or in their particular dealing with people of other faith.

So there might be difference in practices, difference in beliefs. So we needn't make too much of a issue out of it as much as possible. We can try to help them connect with Krishna and appreciate Krishna, but don't need to make that as a very big issue.

And then with respect to engaging with the world, we discussed about is bhakti anti-modern. And then you said that we had a conception of bhakti being anti many things like an anti-grahastha ashram and or anti-west, but Prabhupada came to the west and most of our devotees are agrahastha. So bhakti is, and we could say at the very level anti-maya or it is not anti-maya because maya is also Krishna's energy.

It is more pro-Krishna. And we discussed about urban and rural that they gave a good example that we need to give people the medicine for the disease they are suffering for, not the medicine we like to give. So that means some people, basically everybody is forgetful of Krishna, but they are in different situations.

So trying to get people to move from modernity to from urban setting to a rural setting that may be like giving them a wrong medicine, the medicine that they do not need. So if that's what they're inspired to do, then we can, certainly Prabhupada wanted that and Prabhupada encouraged that, but that shouldn't be what we demand or expect from people. What we expect is where they are, they connect with Krishna.

And then with modernity, of course, we see that we have Prabhupada used technology. We are using technology. And then with respect to cultural intellectual trends, if a devotee has a niche, devotee has that specialization, then they need to do it carefully.

So I think the principle you said was careful, careful, careful and bold or cautious courage. So if we have that, then we'll be able to engage with the world. And at the same time, make sure that we also grow in our devotion.

So you talked about toward the end broadening and deepening. So we deepen by our own practices and broaden by our connections with different people and different, especially if what we are doing, we are doing it while connected with other devotees and that association will be the check and balance. So that way we can move forward with engaging with the world.

Any other points, any concluding points? Wonderful. No, I think that's excellent. I think I enjoyed the conversation.

I look forward to another one. Yes. Thank you very much.

Wonderful talking with you. Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna.

Thank you.