The Monk’s Podcast 50 with Yogeshvara Prabhu – How to spiritualize our profession

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Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

Hare Krishna Yogeshwaru. Humble obeisances. Welcome to the Monks Podcast.

Thank you. Pleasure to be here. You know, it's since I met you for the first time in Radha Gopinath temple, almost seven or a decade ago.

Since that time, I've admired you as a proficient writer and not just a proficient writer. Somehow you have this distinctive ability to take profound spiritual truths and for days, them and attractive contemporary words. So I love that about your writing.

And I also recently read your paper on academia academia on engaged rationalism. So you have actually, it's not just writing is not a tool. You have actually elevated writing to the level of art in Krishna's service.

So I read often what you have written simply for the joy of reading it also apart from what the content is. Somebody once said to me that flattery and praise are like perfume. It's okay to sniff it.

Don't swallow. That's a good one. Thank you.

Thank you for your appreciation. It's encouraging to me. Thank you.

Thank you. So I would say that there's a difference between say praise and appreciation or flattery and appreciation, because I would, I say that because also because I am also a writer and I really carefully try to observe how other devotees use words. So we can learn concepts from many sources, but actually to learn, learn how to present those concepts in an attractive way.

That is a challenge. The one reason why I feel the Bhakti tradition stayed alive in India was that the Bhakti saints, they actually created Bhakti literature, like Bhakti poetry, Bhakti songs, Bhakti plays. And it is not just they're not, you could say writing books for preaching.

So there were books which are actually beautiful books of art and poetry. So I think that is something we have not been able to do much in the English language till now. Some devotees have tried it, but there's a big need if you want to make the Bhakti tradition, like make English speaking people feel that Bhakti is in their home territory, rather than in some alien, some other distant language or a distant tradition.

So I feel that I learn a lot from you how to try to present things in English attractively. Thank you. You've gone right to the heart.

I think our moment historically is that because Bhakti is a living tradition, we're not resurrecting some dead civilization from ancient Greece or ancient Rome. Because it's a living tradition, it acclimates to the culture around it. And our sacred responsibility, I would say at the heart of Srila Prabhupada's mission today is just what you're saying, to evolve a language, a vocabulary, a terminology, a literature that will migrate millennial teachings into contemporary linguistic vernacular that people can understand.

And presenting to people in the various areas of human endeavor, whether it be science or medicine, environment, social endeavors, in the language of those fields, so that the decision makers see we have a contribution to make. Yes. I think one of the things that when Prabhupada started the Bhaktivanta Institute also, Dhritakarma Prabhu told me that it was not just for scientific outreach, it is also for scholars.

And in general, his message was that speak present to the Krishna consciousness in their language, like a scientist present in their language. So, in this case, can you explain how we would do this or maybe how you are doing it? What do we mean by presenting in their language? Can you give some examples? Certainly. I mean, the most obvious example would be in the field of ecology, because our Vaishnava Siddhanta teaches us that the world itself is an avatar of God.

The world itself is sacred, is the Vishwaroopa. And where is there a question of developing our love for God if we are abusing the universal form of God? That's one very obvious area. But let me take that as a good case in point.

That's beautiful. Sorry to interrupt you. But this is such beautiful and striking phrasing.

I never till now, I've studied the Virat Rupa, that is one of my favorite sections in the Bhagavad Gita. And I have presented on environmental friendly living. But till now, I never made that correlation that the universe is actually an avatar of Krishna.

I don't think that kind of usage is common in our moment right now. That's striking. We have to get there sometime.

Yeah. Here in my home, I live on Long Island in New York. And I'm very fortunate to have a little bit of land outside.

In the warm weather like now, I'll go out and I'll plant some tomatoes, peppers, string beans, eggplant, some herbs. And I swear to you, Prabhu, sometimes it's a very emotional experience. Just being with nature, the sacredness of the land, the sacredness of the relationship between humans and the natural world, described in second chapter Bhagavad Gita, that at the dawn of time, the Lord of all beings sent forth hosts of men and demigods saying, with sacrifices to be performed, saying, be happy with these sacrifices, they will provide everything for your needs.

And in that sense, gardening is like caressing the universal form of God. It's more Arjuna Seva. If you approach it in that way, it's a very beautiful thing, very spiritual thing.

That's again, Prabhu, I'm just, I could say, excited with everything that you're saying. Now, I know that we in our tradition talk a lot about agriculture and eco-friendly living in that sense. But that is not so easily accessible to everyone who say who lives in a city, but gardening is relatively speaking, quite easily accessible.

And I have read many, say general spiritual authors, not necessarily bhakti authors, but they talk about how gardening soothes their soul and gardening is very calming and uplifting. And somehow we have never talked about, at least I have never heard anyone talking about gardening as caressing the universal form of the Lord. That's beautiful, Prabhu.

I'm delighted. Thank you for this memorable terms of phrase. It's applicable across all fields of endeavor.

Environment is the obvious one because of that understanding of the world itself as an incarnation of God. That same formula of seeing things through a spiritual lens can be applied to any field of human endeavor, whether it be in health and wellness, or whether it be in mediating peace in areas of armed conflict, or whether it be in social endeavors, social welfare endeavors, social action activity, or defending the rights of women and children and underrepresented minorities. Each of these different areas has its own particular language and vocabulary.

In a similar manner, each of us has a particular field of influence, you might say. And sometimes it can be a very modest field. Not everyone is speaking on a world stage.

Not everyone is speaking before an audience every week. But each of us in our own way has influence over a particular community, a particular circle of family and friends, a particular area of vocational activity, whatever it may be. If we take that opportunity and go inside, what is the dynamic of that? What are the issues and challenges that my world confronts? My world meaning my personal private world? Then thinking deeply, meditating, and I find prayer very useful, asking for help.

How may I be of service to this moment? How may I serve the moment? How may I bring Krishna into this environment? I can give all kinds of examples, if you like. Yes, very often I'm called upon to speak before gatherings of lawyers and judges. My field of research is Holocaust studies, international war crimes trials, and specifically the US military commissions that brought the operators of Hitler's concentration camps to justice at the end of World War II, the Nuremberg trials and trials south of Nuremberg on the grounds of former concentration camp Dachau, the power of witness testimony to bring us closer to the experience of those who went through the Holocaust, and so on.

So I'm called upon to speak before continuing legal education gatherings. Lawyers like doctors have to keep their license current by taking continuing education courses, so I'm called upon to speak there. I always wait for this one question, which I know will come, it'll always come, and it does.

The question is, is there anything that we've learned from the war crimes trials, we call them tribunals today, that took place 75, 80 years ago, and how we operate in the law today? This is always a question that comes up, and I wait for that moment because it's an opportunity for me to bring in Krishna consciousness. And the way I do that is by saying, well, I'll answer your question, but I'd like to answer it in an indirect way by asking you a question. How do you define a human being? If your definition of a human being, as a lawyer, as a judge, is that this person is a collection of biological systems and processes, that their life force is the product of some interaction of wave functions and particles and energies in historic time, and this person has emerged, then basically you're seeing that living being as an ethical machine responsible for the good and bad results of what they do.

And if that's the case, then just find a punishment that fits the crime, let's put them in jail or execute them and go home. If on the other hand, your definition of a human being enlarges to encompass this notion, which in legal language would be called natural law, that is to say, some would say God-given law, or just by virtue of being alive, being a human being, that there is something else in each individual, something that is divine, something that is, to borrow this phrase, possesses inalienable rights, that just by virtue of being a living being, you have the right to exist, you have the right to the dignity of your life, etc., etc. Then maybe the way you practice law will change.

Maybe your feelings about capital punishment will change. Maybe your thoughts about bringing more education to the prison systems, because right now those are being stripped away systematically, it's just a holding pen for people until they serve their time, there's no education going on anymore, there once was. Maybe if you have this wider definition of life, we will find ourselves moving away from a punitive form of justice toward a more restorative, reformative form of justice.

Maybe many things will change if your definition of life changes. And Prabhu, I tell you, there's so much appreciation for that among lawyers and judges. They never get to talk about these things.

So Prabhu, this is beautiful. And this is much more. So three things I observed of what you said.

First is that we are not simply trying to say, preach Krishna conscious philosophy, but we are actually giving wisdom, which can help them in their world. So it's for most people, sharing Krishna consciousness means getting people to chant Hare Krishna. It's more like getting people to come into our devotee world, which is also good.

But the number of people who are going to be able to do that are going to be relatively far lesser. And if we can provide them wisdom that can help them in their world, without them necessarily having to come into the devotee world, then actually we can reach a far larger number of people. Can I tell you a little story? Yes, please.

When I joined Krishna consciousness in 1969, it was in London and my roommate at that time was Tamal Krishna. Okay. I miss him very much.

I miss him. Years later, I was asked to speak at the Dallas temple where Nityananda Prabhu is the president. Nityananda Prabhu was telling me how back home, was it Fiji? I think.

I'm not sure. I can't remember. He was an atheist and he didn't like the devotees.

They were next door to his home and they were always chanting loud with speakers and it was disruptive. So he went next door to try to complain to get them to stop and he was leaving for work and he had his attache case and his suit and tie and he went to and Tamal Krishna was there as the guru for that area and Nityananda spoke with him for a while and Tamal Krishna said, you're a businessman? He said, yes. I said, you must be very organized.

You seem to have your life very well organized and Nityananda said, yes. And then Tamal Krishna very wisely said, do you have a daily schedule that you follow? Nityananda says, yes. And Tamal Krishna said, can I see it? So Nityananda opens his attache case and pulls out a piece of paper with his every hour of his day was accounted for.

So he hands it to Tamal Krishna. Tamal Krishna looks it over and he says, I see that you do your exercises in the morning. I'd like to suggest that maybe you try moving your exercises to the middle of the day.

That way you will refresh yourself and you'll have more energy and focus for the second half of your day. That little gesture of being helpful, offering something useful, has nothing to do with Krishna consciousness, at least overtly. Nityananda said, that changed my life.

It says, if this man has such feelings for me, who he does not know, I do not know him, we have never met before, and yet he is saying something for my benefit, for my profit. He said, I want to get to know this man and I want to get to know why he has become such a compassionate and loving person. Now, you know, this runs into all kinds of different points of view, because not everyone agrees that Krishna consciousness is meant to enter into social work and to social action.

Like here in the States now, there are these anti-racial protests going on. Some people say, that's not our business. We're here to teach about Krishna.

When people are ready, they'll come and we're here for them. But we're not interested in getting involved. And then there are other people like me, who believe that we are meant to get involved in the appropriate way, in the proper way.

If, of course, the basics have to be there, chanting, deity worship, and so on. But if all we do is the basics, and we have not understood the critical importance of penetrating deeper into the surrounding culture, then we have not understood the nature of Srila Prabhupada's mission. He did not come to make a community of salvationists.

Let us chant Hare Krishna and the world can go to hell. That was not his mission. Yes, Prabhu.

This is a very important point. Can I just respond? Two things. I fully agree that Prabhupada did not, as you nicely put, salvationists.

At the same time, for most devotees, their conception of engaging with the world is for converting the world. That, okay, this is the world of devotees. This is the world of non-devotees.

And yes, we are not simply chanting and doing our reading of Bhagavatam and other things. We are engaging with the world. But their idea of engaging with the world is, so that you can preach and you can make people devotees and they join our world.

So, I used to, for many years in India, I was preaching in many of the top universities. So, we often attract very good students from IITs and NITs. And the overall ethos was that we would encourage the students to study also very well.

Their lives would become well-organized and then some amount of discipline can help everyone to move forward. So, they would excel in their studies. But the idea was, you excel in your studies so that by seeing how good students you are, other students will become attracted and become devotees.

But the idea was that the study is not something which is intrinsically or potentially spiritual because they might be doing some engineering, computer engineering or material science or whatever. But that is a tool for you to get good grades to attract others. Or of course, that is a tool for you to get a job and to have a position in society by which you have financial stability and social respect and then using that you can preach.

So, the idea of using a worldly field to get people to Krishna is very much apart. But that getting into the field itself and seeing how that field can be spiritualized, I think that requires both a very deep understanding of Krishna consciousness and a deep understanding of that subject itself. Absolutely.

Perfectly said. Absolutely. Absolutely.

The big mistake, Prabhu, in the past was that we assumed that because we have a vision of Krishna and Vrindavan, we have this theological architecture that surrounds us. Therefore, we are automatically equipped to pontificate on any subject and all that people have to do is listen to us and follow what we say. And that was presumptuous.

It was egotistical. It was just plain wrong. In many cases, it was dangerous.

These are very strong words, you know, egotistic, plain wrong. Can you elaborate how it is that way? Yes. The example Srila Prabhupada gave is the child who sees that his brother has come down with a disease and is in the hospital and the doctors have put his older brother on fasting.

No food, no food. Dangerous to eat. The younger brother only sees, oh, my older brother is hungry because he has nothing to eat.

So, he sneaks into the hospital with food and gives his brother food. He may be well-intended, but he's going to kill him. If we act without an understanding, an informed, mature understanding of what are the issues in a particular arena, you know, I think specifically, for instance, about abuse, which unfortunately we have to admit there has been a history of things being allowed to happen and going unaddressed in our society, and very often there's a kind of a lip service given.

Abuse should not be allowed in our temples. The presidents should encourage people to get marriage counseling, a very superficial approach. Abuse has its origins in deep pathologies, and it's critical that we at least familiarize ourselves enough to recognize what are the symptoms.

Legally, and this is an important point, legally, any organization is obliged to report instances of abuse to the local authorities, whether it be the police or child protection agencies or domestic violence agencies. There's a legal obligation, and if we do not take that obligation seriously, we may be at fault and subject to legal sanctions and fines or worse. And to be able to treat abuse requires a deep understanding of its origins, its manifestations, how to provide emergency relief services.

My wife sits on the board of the Safe Center here on Long Island, which is an organization of professionals who deal with family abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse, verbal abuse, and so on, and they offer courses of study in these things. You don't just automatically know, well, if people would just chant Hare Krishna, everything would be fine. You may be wearing Kunti Mala, and you may be chanting Hare Krishna.

That does not mean that the workings of the human psyche and the traumas of inappropriate child rearing when you were younger, all these things are magically resolved, they've disappeared, and now you're on the pure path of transcendence. That's very naive thinking. So, it behooves us to go deeper inside these issues, understand the dynamic, understand what the issues are, and receive training.

It's important to know that we don't have to own the table. It's sufficient just to have a seat at that table. We can learn, too.

We can learn. And it's critical to say, I don't know. If there's something you don't know, you are not diminished as a devotee or as a human being by saying, you know, I don't know about that.

I need to learn about it. There's nothing wrong with that. This is actually a very sobering subject, first of all.

And even as I have been practicing bhakti for about two decades, personally, I have had this experience that when we have practical problems, and then we are given philosophical solutions, it can be quite exasperating. So, I had a, I had a discussion with Mahatma Prabhu on this topic of do devotees need to take care of their emotional health. And he said that in devotee community, we often have a tendency to throw shlokas at problems.

And that just doesn't work. So, you know, this phrasing that we don't own that truth table. I read this for the first time in your interview in Hare Krishna's in the modern world.

And it is beautiful. So this itself, sometimes we have the idea that, as you said, because we are getting spiritual knowledge from a tradition, venerable tradition, our interaction with the world is to teach, not to learn. So, so, and this is quite a widespread conception.

So in fact, when I started growing up, I was told don't read any other books at all. Everything is just there in our books. Now, I slowly understand, yes, everything spiritual necessary is there in my book, in our books.

But there are so many other subjects of knowledge. So, you know, where does this, this idea that we don't, like we own the truth table, where did this idea come from? Is it just our neophyte, neophyte ego? Or how did? Prabhu, I so enjoy you. I so enjoyed talking with you.

And our discussions are very, very pleasing. I thank you for inviting me to talk with you today. Uh, you know, it's a sad world.

It's a sad world. It's a very bitter world. It's a, it's a world of tragedies and disappointments.

It's a world of loneliness. Many people are very lonely. Yeah.

And, and sometimes even according to Krishna and Bhagavad Gita, people come to him because they're in distress. They come because they need shelter somewhere. They want Krishna to be the god of their religion.

They want someone to worship who will take care of them, a father figure. And, uh, sometimes because that's a precarious position, it's not a very solid foundation in spiritual life. Um, uh, neophytes, uh, uh, will engage, indulge in that sense of, I have the truth.

I know what is right now because they need to feel secure to say, I don't know, to say, I'm not sure how this works to say, I need to learn more means to be vulnerable. That's the thinking that I have to have all the answers. And I have to convince you that these are the answers because then I can feel secure in my spiritual life.

A more mature person comes to a decision. And in this regard, I love the writings of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. Bhaktivinoda Thakur is my hero.

I just, I'm so, so appreciative of the way he approached an understanding of Shastra. Um, a more mature person will say, I have my convictions. I have my convictions.

Um, other people may not share my convictions, but we can find common ground on effective solutions to issues that concern us all. And if people see that devotees have that kind of reasonable approach to participating in the work of the larger culture for the benefit of all, that's very attractive. Then they will come step forward and ask voluntarily.

If you try to push a book down somebody's throat, you're not necessarily going to stimulate their curiosity. You may just repel them and shut them off from spiritual life for the rest of this lifetime. If you're not conducting yourself properly, it can be a dangerous thing for someone else's spiritual well-being.

I was just reading in Bhagavad Gita today, in the purported sixth chapter, verse 29, where Krishna, Srila Prabhupada in the purport is describing, this is the verse where Krishna says, one who sees me in everything and sees everything in me. And the purport, Srila Prabhupada says that a Krishna conscious person can see Krishna at the heart of both the believer and the non-believer. And this vision of equality is there perfectly in a person in Krishna consciousness.

So we're concerned about other people's well-being, not because it's good publicity, or not because it's some sentiment, but because, pardon the use of this word, on an ontological level, on a level of the true nature of reality, you and I are brothers, you and I are brother and sister, we are all children of that same supreme being. I heard a story recently, I'm looking to confirm this, but I believe it's true, that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaj was with disciples, they were on a walk, and they walked by some lepers. And Bhaktisiddhanta was waiting to see what his disciples would do, so they continued walking for a while, no one did anything.

So he stopped and turned around, and he said, why did you not give those lepers a few paise, why didn't you offer them some help? And one disciple was quoting Bhagavad Gita about charity in the mode of ignorance, and charity in the mode of passion, and so on. And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said, who is your father? Krishna is our father. And who is their father? Krishna is their father.

And so what does that make you, brothers? If you cannot, if you are hard-hearted, so hard-hearted, that you will not extend a hand to help your brother, then where's their question of loving God? Amazing. A simple thing, but so vital. So at the core of our entire Krishna conscious life, how dare you present yourself as a devotee, and you cannot be sensitive to the sufferings of another person, because that's material? How dare you? Turn in your japa beads, you don't deserve them.

We see Krishna in the heart of all being. Now what is that, just nice philosophy? No, it means you recognize God in this person, this person is a divine being. Will you not extend a hand to help them if they're in trouble? What kind of hard-hearted rock are you? So I, for one, do not believe that we will realize Srila Prabhupada's mission until we understand this very simple basic truth, that we are meant to get deeper involved in the work of society.

It's controversial, after all. How deep do you go before you start compromising the unique contribution of our siddhanta? How deeply do you go into that work of the world before you end up cutting into your spiritual life? So there are many questions, and they have to be answered individually. There's no one answer for everyone in that regard, but at least we should be aware of the principle.

Yes, true. So these two points which you just now brought up in conclusion, I was going to ask you about these. Thank you for bringing this up.

And so first is that going back to your earlier point of, is there something inalienable, divine within the human beings, which gives them inherent dignity? When you talk about addressing lawyers and others, judge or judges. So now, isn't this more of a Christian understanding? I mean, it's not necessarily a Vaishnav understanding. It doesn't have to be Vaishnav.

But that idea that we are, there is a spark of divinity within all of us that seems to have originated in the Western jurisprudence. And from what I've read as compared to Indian jurisprudence, because of the discriminatory caste system, now we know it's a distortion of the Varanashram. But sometimes people of the lower caste were treated as lower than human beings.

So that idea of inalienable worth of a human being, is that a distinctive contribution of our tradition? Or is that a contribution of theism as compared to atheism or materialism? It is to be found in all true religions of the world. It's the golden rule after all. In the Bhagavad Gita, the equivalent of the golden rule, the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or sometimes it is said, do not do unto others, as you would not want them to do unto you.

In Bhagavad Gita, the equivalent would be, one, they are the true yogis who by virtue of comparison with their own selves, see the quality of all living beings in their happiness and their distress. That's our golden rule. That's our equivalent of the golden rule in Bhagavad Gita.

The Varanashram system enters into this in the following way. I think if we were to create, as we said earlier, a contemporary vernacular, that more modern vocabulary, I think instead of calling it caste system or even Varanashram, we might say it is the right of each individual to vocation and social status according to their skill sets, according to their abilities. The problem today is that young people grow up, there's very, very little, let me say, attempt to identify what are their particular interests and skill sets, what are they suited for.

I've been teaching for years at Hofstra University, and there's a kind of social admission process because universities are hard up for money, and so they want the tuition, and so they'll admit anybody, and I end up with classes of young people. Prabhu, half of them should not even be there. They're not suited for these studies.

They don't know how to write a paragraph. Their grammar is horrendous. They were seduced, or their parents were seduced, into thinking that if you get a degree, you'll get a better paying job.

That's why they're there. They're not there because they're scholars or because they're suited to higher education, and there are other places where they would be happier, where their families would not be taking on so much debt, and where they would be more appropriate tools for vocations and job opportunities made available to them. That's not happening.

That's not happening at all. So there's that on the one hand, and on the other hand, there's no training in how to respect these various groups, so therefore you end up with tensions and conflicts between them. I remember when I was a devotee in the Paris Temple, back in the early and mid-1970s.

Our building was on a very, very exclusive street called Avenue Foch, F-O-C-H. It was like the Fifth Avenue of Paris. It was totally inappropriate for us to be there, but we had found a building for rent and we took it.

It was right next door to one of the embassies. I think it might have been Saudi Arabia, one of the big embassies in Paris. The embassy of Saudi Arabia is right next door.

It's a huge place, and they would have parties and dances and galas and balls all the time, and limousines would be pulling up, and men and women in tuxedos and furs and jewelry would be going in. And I remember watching whenever these things would happen on the escarpment, on the strip of grass separating these residential structures from the street. All of the workers would be gathering to watch these people go in, the the servants and the repair people and delivery people, whatever.

And then you could see them just kind of like envious and angry that why do these people get to live like this, and I work so hard and I never get any such pleasures in life. And I remember Srila Prabhupada's description of the times when whenever there would be an Agnihotra yajna or whenever there was a big festival, the very first thing was that the shudras, the workers, they would immediately be receiving gifts and prasadam, immediately. That was the first thing that would happen, so that everyone felt included.

Nobody was excluded. And it was part of the success of such gatherings in the Vedic culture that everyone is satisfied, everyone is satisfied that by performing these sacrifices for the demigods, for the supreme being, and that everything is distributed first to the most needful. No one felt left out, no one felt looked down upon, nobody felt embittered.

What a difference, what a total difference to honor. You want to know what the caste system is, Prabhu? The caste system is when the woman from Uruguay who comes to clean our house comes here, and if I were to treat her like a servant, that's the caste system. Instead, I know her name is Lorena, I know her husband, I know her children.

We had a car that was no longer needed, we gave it to them. When she comes, we sit down together and have lunch. Why is this one not entitled to the same respect that somebody might offer to me, just because it's my home and she's cleaning it.

If I look down upon her that she's the cleaning woman, then now it's the caste system and I'm not a devotee. My God, this is profound. Thank you for sharing this.

And so the caste system is not just a relic of the past, or a relic of a particular particular tradition. It's it can be a universal human mentality. It may express it wherever, wherever one group of people looks down upon another group of people.

Now you're in the twisted caste system. That's amazing. And just going back to this point, which you mentioned about how the you said that we often talk about engaging people according to their vocation, their nature or their vocations.

But what has struck me was you added the word, the right, right for people to be engaged, engaged in vocations according to their abilities. Absolutely. That's not only true, but it's also so appealing.

It's because today the language of rights is quite, quite popular. It's something which people can relate with very easily. And even as an engineering student, I have seen in my college, and now also I see that in India, there's a lot of glamorization for people to become engineers and doctors.

And many students would have been much happier in other, other vocations. So, so Varnashram essentially was meant for providing people, not just compatible engagement, but the right for that incompatible engagement. That's a responsibility.

Parents, unfortunately, today, they don't know how to identify their own children's skills, abilities, psychic predispositions. You know, I take that was the guru in the Vedic conception is that students, not like today, unfortunately, there are not enough gurus to go around. So, so one guru in our society may have 10,000 disciples or 5,000 or whatever, and they don't always get to spend much time with them.

In Vedic times, there was a handful of students living in the home of the guru, often it was a married couple, man and his wife, who would, instead of sending their children to someone else's gurukul, ashram, they would open one, and children would come and they would learn there. And so they knew their students, because they were living together. And they could say, you know, my son's name, you know, I think you might want to consider something in aviation.

My son is a pilot. So it's an obvious example, because you have this aspiration of interest in flying and so on. And I can see that that's something that excites you.

So maybe that's a direction you could look at. I mean, the guru in a Vedic environment can do that, because it's like a family. So I know your disposition.

I also know what you shouldn't do. I have a sense of it, at least. And I can't dictate to you what to do, but I can advise you.

That's the guru-shishya relationship. It's not just for memorizing shloka. It's for how to live your life in a way that you're happy, peaceful, and can make steady spiritual progress.

So unfortunately, that's not available to young people today. But just imagine, Prabhu, a world in which there is a union of Vaishnava health care professionals, an association of Vaishnava social workers, an affiliation of Vaishnava peacemakers, a community of Vaishnava financial advisors. Imagine what kind of world this would be, where it's predicated not on competition, but on cooperation.

What an amazing world that would be. Yes, cool. So you mentioned earlier Bhaktivinod Thakur has been your model.

I often thought about when Bhaktivinod Thakur said that he longs for a time when judges would wear tilaks. So it's significant, you know, he's not necessarily saying that we will have a world where we will not need judges. That's a utopia.

He's also not necessarily saying that we won't need a judicial system, but it's more that devotees would become so engaged with the world and so responsible and respectable that they would rise to that position in a significant number. Yeah, and that after all, I mean, I can share this with you. That gets me up in the morning.

That vision of the exciting adventure of Srila Prabhupada's mission in the world, what it could be someday, if we don't lose our enthusiasm for it, if we don't lose our sense of vision of where it can go, how deeply it can penetrate the kind of reform of society that is capable of happening. If each individual, each of us goes deeper inside whatever those gifts are that God has given us, maybe one person has a gift for here in New York, we have Divya Mataji. She's done the most amazing Ayurvedic restaurant, top reviews in all of the media, all the newspapers and online reviews and so on.

Best vegan vegetarian restaurant in New York. And now she's opening a cooking school and from her cooking classes devotees are coming. It's maybe not a direct connection, it's through learning cooking skills, but you cannot be in the association of such a wonderful devotee as Divya and not have your heart transformed as well as your cooking skills.

And the same is true in every arena, every arena. My godbrother Guru Gurunga, world-class lawyer, used to be top legal counsel to one of the big cosmetic companies. He's organizing an association of Vaishnav lawyers now.

They had a conference last January in Gainesville. It's unlimited and it's so exciting. I love the verse in Bhagavad Gita where Krishna tells Arjuna, I am victory and adventure.

This is the big adventure of life. This is the big adventure. This is exciting.

This is exciting. If you see it in the right way, you'll never be bored ever again. That's amazing.

So it's remarkable that some of the devotees, many of the devotees in our movement, in the first generation, they left the world. You were also a full-time devotee for a long time. And then in a sense, you returned to the world and not only returned, but you've risen to significantly respectable positions in society.

So do you see that as Krishna's empowerment yourself? You might see it like that, but is it that the devotees who joined our movement were themselves very talented? That's how they were able to rise because where I'm coming from is that unless somebody is really good in their particular profession, for many people, it is just managing their sadhana because our spiritual demands are not small. They take a good amount of time managing the sadhana, managing the family responsibilities, and then managing a job that itself takes a whole life. And then to actually go out and excel in one's field, that it seems to be quite a huge demand on a person.

And unless a person has an innate competence or even a capacity for excellence in that field, it can be very exhausting and frustrating. Let me tell you a story. About 20 years ago, I was asked to serve as the executive producer of a gathering at the United Nations of religious and spiritual leaders.

And it was the largest such gathering in UN history when 1500 leaders from around the world came. And the program was funded by a number of very wealthy individuals. One of the sponsors was Stephen J. Rockefeller.

Now, the Rockefeller family, as you know, very well-to-do family. Stephen Rockefeller, in his younger years, he was headed for the seminary. He was going to be a Buddhist.

And so he's been a practicing Buddhist for many years. And a wise man. I've conducted many interviews for the books that I've done.

And sometimes I can be a little impertinent in the questions that I ask. So I sat, we were sitting down and the cameras were rolling and the lights were on. I said, so tell me, what's it like to be a Rockefeller? And he was, he was polite.

He's a gentleman. He took it very nicely. And the answer he gave me was something I'll never forget.

He said, you know, some of us are called upon to play out our parts on a grand stage, world, world stage. Others among us are called upon to play our, our parts on a more modest stage. But who's to say which is more important? Our responsibility is to take whatever opportunities there are in front of us and to make the most of them.

I never forgot that because years before, 1971, I was with Srila Prabhupada in Paris. And I asked him, you know, Srila Prabhupada, you, you always say in your lectures and in your books and your writings, that the Gopis love for Krishna is the highest love of all. Is that what you want us to do? Do you want your disciples to love Krishna like the Gopis? And he said, well, that's very nice if you want to do that.

But you have to be completely free of all material desire. He said, for now, you should read the books. And he mentioned in particular Chaitanya Taratamrita, which he had begun to translate at that time.

And he mentioned Chaitanya Bhagwat, which he had not translated. So to your question, to your point earlier, here's an example where Srila Prabhupada told me personally to read a book that he had not written. And I said, all right, well, I'll do as you have suggested.

But still, I don't understand if the love of the Gopis is the highest love, why would anybody ever want to be anything else? Why would anybody want to be a blade of grass or a cow or an older person in Vrindavan or a coward boy? Why would anyone want to be anything else? He said, and to this day, I've been meditating on this. He said, ultimately, it's a question of personal choice. Usually, he said, the followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu end up in the mood of the Gopis.

But there's something you have to understand about the spiritual world. In the spiritual world, if you are a big glass or a little glass, when you're full, you're full. That one moment with Srila Prabhupada has seen me through some very dark times.

That has inspired me for the past 50 years. And it also has helped me to understand the answer to your question just now. We all make our contribution, some of us on a world stage, some of us are big glasses, some of us in a more modest way in our little circle, whatever it may be.

But you do not have the right, you do not have the right to judge the efficacy or importance of your devotional service. You have no right to do that. The smallest little gesture of compassion, of friendship, of love, of concern for another person can be the spark that ignites the fire of their spiritual life.

And to judge any service as higher or lower is a travesty and completely against our Vaisnav Siddhanta. We have to be very, very cautious of this. I think it behooves the temple presidents to do a population survey, to sit down with every one of the people in their community and get to know them better, find out what are their skills, what are their interests, how would they like to serve, and encourage them in whatever way it is they wish to serve.

How often do we do that? How often do we know the many people who are coming to our temple so well that we can say, oh, Jim, great to see you. How's the family? How's your work going with your recycling process? How do we, we have no way of knowing these things. I just, this point about the, we don't have a right to judge the results.

That's just the efficacy of our service. That's quite a radical statement because we also have Prabhupada saying, it will be known by the fruits. So Prabhupada would often say that the fruit of his purity was that there was so much, so many people became devotees and there was so much results.

So now also there's the other side that when you mentioned Rockefeller saying that we are called upon to play different parts, it struck me that we could correlate that with Bhagavad Gita says, don't be attached to the results of your work. So both sides are there, but in our moment, we do seem to stress the aspect of evaluating the results. For example, how many books were distributed or things like that.

So can you elaborate this point? All right. You're just something, but even in Srila Prabhupada's case in his lifetime, maybe he initiated 5,000 people. Now, how many millions of people are there coming to 800 temples around the world? He didn't see that.

He didn't stay long enough to see that personally. So sometimes you see some of them, but not all of them. And to use a biblical analogy, we may be like the Jews wandering in the desert, not destined to see the promised land.

We're laying a foundation for the future. And sometimes they, of course, Prabhupada was someone for everything. He liked to see the books going out.

But that was not to the detriment of the quality of service or to Vaisnava behavior or to the small things. He was the perfect embodiment of that appreciation for even the small things. Those are the things that I remember.

Yes, of course, I remember my spiritual master as someone who started a worldwide movement, but that's not the part of him that I remember most. The part that I remember most was the person who I was on a morning walk with in London. And he used to brush his teeth with nym twigs.

Now, there are no nym trees growing in London, but we went to Hyde Park and there was a willow tree. So the willow tree was hanging down and he said to his secretary, please take some twigs for toothbrushes. So he went up, broke one twig off.

He went up, broke a second twig off. And then Nandakumar was reaching up to break a third twig. And Prabhupada said, no, no, do not disturb more than necessary.

He was saying, maybe I need to take some twigs for my personal use, but I don't wish to disturb this tree more than necessary. I mean, it's moments like that, that are embedded in my heart. That's the Prabhupada I recall.

Yes, there's the world, Acharya of the universe, and so on. But I remember him as someone with a wicked sense of humor and who was concerned. How are you? How's your wife? He would ask me, he would say, how are you doing? I remember one time he said, your wife is doing well.

I said, yes, she's doing very well. He said, all right, then don't fight. He said, husband and wife shouldn't fight.

Husband and wife should love each other. Otherwise the relationship becomes dry. Now, you don't hear that very often in Bhagavatam class.

But this is the Srila Prabhupada I remember. Amazing. So I think this is a beautiful pastime to symbolize or illustrate the theme that Prabhupada was engaged in his disciples' practical lives, not just that how they become devotees, but how they live life in all aspects of the life.

How they bring that consciousness. It's a mistake to think that somehow there's this sharp divide between our material life and our spiritual life and we're only interested in the spiritual side. That's a neophyte vision.

That's an incomplete understanding of the nature of Brahman, of the nature of the Krishna conscious theology. We see everything as the energy of Krishna to be engaged properly, to be respected, to be honored. That example can transform the world.

Amazing. It's true. Can I, I would love to talk more with you, but I know you have other engagements.

Can I quickly summarize and then you could put some concluding words. If you don't mind. Yeah.

So we discussed on this topic of engaged Vaishnavism or how to spiritualize, how devotees can spiritualize their professions and the world at large. So we started by how we need the right language, vocabulary, terminology. So I appreciate some of the terms that you use.

And then you also brought, you also introduced some terms. I remember several now that by presenting one ashram as the right to compatible engagement or introducing the justice system, that the idea of inalienable human rights because of people being divine. So rather than trying to simply get people to convert and become members of our movement, we offer them help or wisdom where they are to better guide their lives.

And if we can add value to them, where they are, like you get the example of Tamal Krishna Maharaj, Tamal Krishna Maharaj helping improve schedule. And that is what is going to attract people much more. And then you talked about in environmental language, the earth is environmental terms, the earth, the world itself is avatar of the Lord.

And to care for the world, it's gardening is like caressing universal form of the Lord. That's unforgettable. So, so we can beat each of our professions.

We can find out how we can go deep into them and spiritualize or Krishna is them for that. We will need a deep understanding of philosophy. Like you would say that we don't rigidly separate the material and the spiritual, but we understand Krishna is present everywhere.

And Krishna is, I am adventure, I am victory. So we have a deep understanding of the philosophy of how Krishna is present everywhere. Then we have a deep understanding of our subject and then see how we can address that subject in a way that brings people closer to Krishna.

And some people might be, some of us might be able to do it on a big scale. And some of us might do it on a small scale, but that is not for us to judge that because we are all doing our part and Prabhupada did not see the full results of what he was doing. So even if we don't see the full results, still it is, it is our spirituality to keep doing our parts.

And then you concluded some pastimes of how Prabhupada was engaged in the practical aspects of not plucking a tree too much or telling that you and your wife that they should love each other. It's amazing. Any conclusion? I am astonished by the expertise with which you have summarized this entire conversation.

Very impressive. Thank you. Thank you.

And I would love to, if possible, have a future discussion where we could continue the subject. Well, we will do so. We will do so.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Bye.