The Monk’s Podcast 88 with Kaustubha Prabhu – Kaustubha P Sharing bhakti in contemporary America

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna, Kaustubh Prabhu.
Welcome to the Monks Podcast. It’s been my aspiration to have you on this forum for a long time. I’ve seen you to be a thoughtful, cutting-edge, contemporary outreach in an area where not many have been so I’m very grateful that you’re here today with us.
Well, Prabhu, I’m honored to be here and I will share whatever I can. Thank you. I’ll just quickly read your introduction so then you can have more personal discussion.
Kaustubh has a special way of making the teachings and practices of yoga very approachable and relevant. He has a Bhakti Yoga Podcast which has been ranked number one in the world on Apple Podcasts in the category of religion and spirituality. That’s remarkable since you have just got one year.
We’ll talk about that. It’s amazing. Between the ages of 21 and 24 he lived as a Vaishnava monk traveling and studying in ashrams in India and America.
He teaches Bhakti Yoga, Philosophy and Meditation which he has practiced for over 30 years in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. It indicates the way you have evolved and positioned yourself in the mission of outreach. Can you tell me how, since you are specializing now in outreach in yoga, how did you come to that genre of outreach? Since if you were a monk in the ashram in Iskcon Temple, from there it must have been quite a journey to come to this level, this kind of outreach.
I was a Brahmacharya monk from 1987 till 2000. You were introduced in? In New York City. In which year roughly? In 1987.
I mean a little bit earlier than that. I had friends that were interested in Bhakti Yoga, interested in Krishna Consciousness. From my teenage years, from when I was about 15, I had some exposure and some of the kids that were in the scene that I was in, which was kind of like the New York City punk rock underground scene, some of the more influential kids, I was 15 and they might have been my age or up to like 19 or 20, they had an interest in Krishna Consciousness.
So I had some exposure to it during that time, but it was really a few years later when I was about 19 or 20 when I began to read Prabhupada’s books and get more interested. And so then in 1987, I actually became a monk myself. So 1920 is quite young.
So there’s a few years of that building, but I started again. Yeah, maybe. But that was about our age.
People were getting interested in it, I think. Oh, interesting. So then were you having some means? What was your overall background when you came? Very little.
I’m not like you. No, no, no. You know, I had in general.
Well, I grew up. Yeah. Yeah, I had graduated from high school.
But to be honest, in the world that I was absorbed in, which was this kind of, you know, people in America may know this, people in India may not understand it as much. But it was this punk rock subculture, what we call a hardcore subculture, was particularly at the time that I was involved in, which was early on, it was kind of a very anti-social rebellious kind of person. And so I really had lost interest in school.
And in school, they placed me in a special program, you know, that was experimental. Oh, behind the school, they had like a little trailer and they put a few of us in there and they tried to give us some kind of special education. And what it effectively meant was most of my high school years, I didn’t really even have to attend school all that much.
And they kind of just let me out at the end. So I had a high school degree, but college was out of the question. I had no intention of attending college.
And I really wasn’t sure what I was looking for in those teenage years. Amazing. So I thought that the hippie counterculture was, it more or less ended by the 70s.
But still, there’s something else which was somewhat similar that was there in the late 80s also? Yeah, similar. Well, this was early 80s, let’s say, when I was like, say, I began to get involved in when I was about 15 or so in 1981. The hip-hop rock and the hardcore scene was, it was, in some ways, it was similar to the hippie thing.
It was far less popular, far less known. And it was a bit more shocking to people, I think, the way that we looked in the music itself. But it did share some of the, kind of, it looked at mainstream society as hypocritical.
I think it shared that in common. Maybe that was a big thing it shared in common. It was people that were interested in some alternative way of living, an alternative way of looking at the world.
I think you could say that. Oh, okay. It was a bit of a wild, it was a bit of a scary world, I think, for a lot of people.
But somehow, and this is an interesting point, somehow in the midst of that world, which was very gritty, it was drug-ridden, it was violence-ridden, it had a dark side to it, for sure. But there was a lot of youth, and there was a lot of, I suppose I would call it, idealism mixed in with it. But somehow or other, where that scene took root in New York City was right in the very same place where Srila Prabhupada planted the seed of bhakti, which took root, which was the Lower East Side of New York City.
And even specifically, the area of Tompkins Square Park, where Prabhupada began doing public kirtans, that was kind of the very center of our New York City punk rock hardcore scene. That’s amazing. So somehow I believe that the blessings of that place kind of rubbed off on us.
Oh, okay. So I’m just making some notes because this is fascinating. You’re okay with that, I hope.
Okay. So were the Hare Krishnas also a part of this punk rock subculture? Or did we have a presence at that time? We might not have been a part of it. In New York City, yes.
We were a visible presence. But were we at that time, or our movement had become a little less influential at that time? Yes, it was less influential at that time. But in New York City, there certainly was.
Every city had their hardcore scene, we would call it. Again, it was a very underground group of young people that most people didn’t even know about. And yeah, in New York City, devotees would come out to the concerts that we had and distribute prasadam.
Distribute prasadam in Tompkins Square Park. So they were visible to us. And then one or two people developed an interest in it, within that scene, and it started to grow.
And so therefore, that connection grew too. You would see devotees at certain events, and there was always talk about it. And then one influential band, actually more than one, several bands began to build Krishna conscious concepts into their art or into their music.
And then in later years, like in the 90s, my buddy Raghunath, he would start a whole scene of music that they called Krishna core, which was bringing very directly Krishna conscious themes to the music. And at that point, it grew much more. But I was into it in the early 80s, up to the mid 80s, that kind of took off in the 90s.
Oh, OK. So do you feel that this background made you receptive for Krishna consciousness in some ways? Although it might seem quite radical and disruptive, but do you feel it made you receptive for Krishna consciousness in some way? I do. And this is the point that I think a lot of people may have a difficult time understanding.
But in that time that I was involved in it, I was 16 year old, 17 year old. The way that we dressed and the way that we looked, it was almost like a social suicide. It was almost like once you presented yourself this way, it felt like not only were you turning on the world, but the whole world was turning on you.
And so you really were ready. Like a lot of the things that may have made someone hesitant to fully embrace. And, you know, this isn’t so much a problem now if you get interested in bhakti in America, you don’t necessarily have to radically change the way that you dress.
But then you did. And so for a young man, for instance, to shave his head, to put on a dhoti, to put on tilak, you lose all your friends. It’s like people think you’ve completely gone insane.
That’s the way it was. And to have already done that as a 15 year old in the punk rock world made it much easier to do so as a 20 or 21 year old, you know, to put on a dhoti and all of that. So there was that.
That was part of it. And I think another part of it was that there was an idealism in that music. There was a way of saying, yeah, I’m looking at the world.
I’m looking at mainstream society. I see that it has no clear direction. I see the hypocrisy in it.
I’m looking for truth. You know, I really want something genuine and something true. So I think, you know, a lot of people that were interested in that music and that world were naturally ripe to hear Krishna consciousness.
And when we read Prabhupada’s books, they rang true with us. Amazing. So literally, we could say that what Prabhupada did in the 60s that continued to happen to some extent in the 80s also.
The disaffected people from mainstream society, they were attracted. So specifically, what about Prabhupada’s books? What did rang true to you? What attracted you? You know, I’ll say this too. As I came into my late teens, it wasn’t only punk rock music, but it was also a lot of music I was listening to was reggae music.
And there, of course, Bob Marley was like the major figure. I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, Prabhupada. Do you know Bob Marley at all? I’ve heard the name, but not much more than that.
Okay. So that was music coming out of Jamaica and very much influenced by Rastafarianism, which is stemming out of biblical teachings. And so, at that point in my life, I was really, I would say, my favorite musician and one of the biggest influences on my life was Bob Marley.
And when I would hear Prabhupada’s, or like, say, read his conversations, like in a book, say, like The Science of Self-Realization, it really reminded me of a lot of the ways that Bob Marley would speak about spirituality and the way that he would look at the world, sum it up, the way that he would even use the language. It actually did remind me a lot about a lot of Bob Marley. But books like Science of Self-Realization, that was a real important book.
The Cause of Vegetarianism and the way that it was presented, say, in a book like The Higher Taste, which was a cookbook, but it had a lot of information on vegetarianism, which is more widely available now, but at that time in the 80s was not so widely available. That was a real eye-opener too. So books like The Higher Taste, books like The Science of Self-Realization, and also books like, there was a book at that time, Coming Back, which was an explanation of reincarnation.
These fundamental concepts of karma, reincarnation, the importance of vegetarianism and how that plays into both of those concepts, these are all really ringing true. And then again, just like more or less everything that you find in a book like The Science of Self-Realization was ringing true. And again, the way that Srila Prabhupada could point at, hey, this whole civilization is misdirected.
The way that he could articulate that with my friends and myself was very effective. And I should make this point too, and it might, for a lot of listeners, they might not understand, but within that hardcore scene in New York City, which again was in a very greedy kind of violent drug culture, all that was there, I had a group of friends that I was close with that were, I would say, they were very influential in that world, and they were also the kids that were really the most deeply absorbed in that kind of thing. In other words, the scariest kids, and the kids that were doing all of the most wild stuff, living the most wild lifestyles.
Somehow, it was particularly those kids that got most interested in Prabhupada’s books. And these really tough street kids, these are kind of like thugs. I love them all, and I have great appreciation for them, but they were tough kids.
They could read Prabhupada’s books and come back and articulate important philosophical or theosophical concepts and debate with people. And we were growing up in the streets of New York and in the parks of New York and on the streets of New York and talking with each other all the time. And you’d sit in a place like Tompkins Square Park and you would discuss these topics with all kinds of people.
And I would watch my friends who were like these tough New York City street kids, really kids, debate with people. And basically, their arguments were all coming from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings which were presented in real clear simple ways and they were very effective. And this was really impressive to me.
I’ll say that. I’m not the only one. You know, these weren’t educated people.
These are people that dropped out of school. These are people that didn’t speak of going to college or anything like that. But just from their conversations with devotees and with their readings of Srila Prabhupada’s books, they were really able to present their point of view really very effectively.
So after a year or two of being engaged in that kind of thing, in that coinciding with my countercultural outlook and my reggae music and a bit of a disillusionment in some of the other counterculture, you know, seeing the same kind of things in the counterculture as you see in the mainstream culture, the same kind of hypocrisy and the same kind of small mindedness and the same kind of cruelty and all of that, all of that was kind of blending together and my attraction really went to Srila Prabhupada’s books. So again, Science of Self-Realization, Coming Back, Higher Taste, of course, Bhagavad Gita, Sri Sripanisad, those books were real important to me at that time in my life. Amazing.
So, was there something about Srila Prabhupada’s style of presentation also where he was a little cutting and spoke to people who were already critical of mainstream society and that style sort of resonated with them at that time? Absolutely. No question. No question about it.
Oh, okay. That’s amazing. you know, so for people who are in some sense, my understanding was that, you know, that many of the, I thought of this for the 60s, but you’re saying this applies for the hardcore punk rock culture in the 70s, 80s also that many of them were already, early 80s, that they were already rebelling against mainstream society, but Prabhupada gave them like a philosophical foundation for their rebellion, a philosophical foundation and a spiritual direction.
So, Yep. That style resonated very well. Yeah.
Okay. So then for you, in a sense, becoming a monk was, was it like a big decision or it was a natural flow, natural development from where you were? Well, the way that it worked for me was so, my friends who were again, these really influential people like influential in the music world and kind of legendary in the neighborhood even, but, but, you know, just to talk to some of them, they were kind of like, they had a lot of charisma, you know, and, and so after you know, a year or so of kind of like, you know, speaking on these subjects a lot and hearing a lot about it, I began to want to begin, I began to read the books and they were ringing true with me. But, you know, again, a group of my friends, they were all wearing these Tulsi beads, you know, that was kind of like a little symbol like, okay, that guy’s gotten into it now.
So I wasn’t quite ready to say this is my thing, you know, this is, this is, you know, I accept. But, but I started to read the, and the more I was reading the books, the more they were really ringing true. And, and I got to a certain point where I almost felt it’s inevitable that this, that I kind of really accept this.
And then one, one day, I was walking down the street one evening and a friend of mine said to me, you know, there’s a, a Hare Krishna program going in, going on in another friend’s apartment. Do you want to go see that? And for people that you may not know, but for people that do know, his name was John Joseph. He was the singer of a, one of these friends of mine from that time.
And he was a singer of a band called the Cro-Mags. And the Cro-Mags were one of the first bands to bring Krishna consciousness into that world. So this was a program going on in his apartment on the Lower East Side of New York.
And so my friend saw me and he said, you know, there’s that program going on and you’re going to, you think you want to go to that? And I was like, not really, you know, I’m not so interested. And he said, well, you know, they’ll have, they’ll probably have good food there, you know. I said, you know what, you’re right, you know, because we had all had prasadam at different times or circumstances.
So it was really because of that that I said, yeah, maybe I ought to go over there. So I went to his apartment, which was in a real tough neighborhood on the Lower East Side. And I was there with my friends, again, where these were kind of tough street kids.
And there was maybe, it was a very small apartment. It was much cleaner than I had ever seen it before because a special guest was coming to speak. And there was only, I don’t know how many of us were there, but my guess is maybe like five, six, seven of us.
And I just knew the special speaker was supposed to be coming. And then walked to Malkrishna Goswami. And my friends were all like down on the ground.
I’d never seen this kind of behavior. You know, my friends are like bowing down on the ground and really showing him respect. And then he spoke just to the handful of us.
I should really try to find the tape of this conversation. I’d love to hear it again. But he spoke, I remember the theme was that when something material is engaged in a spiritual way, it becomes spiritualized.
And so after that talk, that night, as I was walking out of that apartment and going home, in my mind and in my heart, I knew this was it. There’s no doubt. I have to dedicate myself to this.
And at that point, I began practicing the regulative principles and chanting 16 rounds. And in New York City at that time, there was a lot. There was like four days a week.
There was something to attend publicly. There was a small center in Greenwich Village that did programs on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. And in the temple in Brooklyn on Sunday, there was a program.
So that was four programs a week, four times to eat prasadam a week. Also this meet devotees in the park. And then my friends, we were all talking about it all the time.
So, from January through that following summer, I was getting deeper and deeper into it. Still not knowing where exactly it was going to go. And then in September of 1987, Guru Granthi Maharaj came to my neighborhood.
And so I said, okay, you know, let’s do that. And that was kind of the beginning of my years as a monk. I just kind of left my apartment, left my job, left everything and just joined him.
And within a month or two of that, I said, okay, you know, let me be a monk too. Amazing. So that’s how it developed.
So, you know, I would love to go over your monk years also, but we have to come to the yoga thing. So maybe we could go a little fast forward on that part. Oh, yes, yes, yes.
So no, I wanted to know, I only asked about it. So how did that start? So I only wanted to, I only asked in detail about this, but, you know, so, in my sense, what changed in America so much if the counterculture to some extent was so appealing, but in many ways that way of presentation or the appeal of Krishna consciousness that was there at that time, that is not there, say now 20, 30 years down the line. So I presume that your change in orientation also was a response to the change in the environment.
So maybe you could go over those factors of how you evolved as a monk in response to the environment. Yeah, sure. I became a disciple to Maha Krishna Goswami after that.
And in one sense, you can say as a monk, my service was more in that traditional Hare Krishna framework. You know, I was a book distributor. I distributed books every day.
I did it for, from 87 through 2000. That was my thing. Okay.
Yeah. And so at the same time, he became quite a progressive thinker. You know, he went back into the university and so on.
And about, I think that was about 94, maybe 93. I think it was 94 that he went back into university in the academic world. And I think, well, I don’t know, I think I know that he was kind of sensing what you just mentioned, which may have been a more novel idea at the time, that yeah, you know, in the 60s and the 70s, you could just take a kirtan into any park in any city in America and do some kirtan and there’s going to be a bunch of people that are interested and they’ll come back to the temple with you and a few of them will never leave.
You know, it’s this kind of, you know, there was a lot of young intelligent people that were really earnestly searching for truth and ready to radically change their lifestyle to find it. And as the hippie thing kind of died down, that wasn’t so prominent. And so, how can we make this relevant? And, you know, that was a question and he was certainly exploring that himself.
But in terms of his relationship, like my training by him, how he trained me, he wasn’t training me how to sell books, you know, he was training me more how to think. And so, he used to do this with me that in the mornings, every morning, we would chant japa together in the temple room and he would kind of call me to sit right next to him every day, you know. And so, Was he based in New York for a significant amount of time? No, no, this is in Dallas.
This is in Dallas, Texas now. Because he was going to university. Okay.
So you had shifted to Dallas by this time? Yeah, I really, you know, those years, I never moved into any temple because I joined with Guru Granthi Maharaj. So I was always kind of traveling, okay. Yeah, I wasn’t tied down to any temple.
But when my guru settled down in Dallas to go to school, right, he wasn’t traveling as much because he’s in the university there. Then I spent most of my time there with him, you know, in the same areas. And so, so then he would call me to sit with him, you know, and chant japa with him.
And then towards the end of the japa time, he would spend five or ten minutes talking to me. And he would ask me questions. And it was almost like he was kind of testing me or training me to think this is how I understand it.
That he would ask me a question like, Kastuba, so and so Swami is doing this over in this part of the world, right? This is how he’s presenting bhakti, you know. What do you think about that? You know. And he, you know, I think commonly, just like socially, our tendency to say, oh, that’s wonderful, jai, you know, whatever, you know, something like that.
He wouldn’t allow me to answer that superficially. Right. If I said that, he would say, why? Why is that such a great thing? You know, he would kind of push me or, you know, to think critically.
I saw it basically as a way of training and critical thinking. You know, that kind of question itself is a that kind of question itself is a radical question. What do you think about what somebody is doing, especially a senior leader? Yeah.
You know, I read, just to give some context, you know, I read most of the Malkrishna Maharaj books and I read especially that essay, when he decided to, which is written in the introduction of his first set of published academic essays. Hare Krishna at Southern Methodist University. SMU.
SMU. So, he talks about his rationale for going into the, into the academia and it struck me as so amazing. So, he says basically that through our approaching people on the street, we have reached a plateau in our influence.
If we want to reach further to people, we need to understand them better so that we can make ourselves understandable to them better. So, and that requires… That was a kind of a radical statement at that time. Yeah, it was all that, you know, the only mode of interaction… Actually, go ahead.
But yeah, we are meant to teach others. It’s that, you know, I read in the sort of, what is the word for it? So, in the organized, release organizational theory, there are four modes of interaction. It’s like there is insider-insider, insider-outsider, outsider-outsider, and outsider-insider.
So, insider-insider like our Bhagavatam classes. So, or Bhakti Shastri classes. Then insider-outsider is our Sunday feast or our book distributions.
But, we really never cared much about how outsider-outsider happens. You know, what do people think about us and what do people… How people discuss us in our absence. Yeah.
Yeah. There’s a lot of negative press there. And, and, outside-insider was out of question.
That, you know, they have something to teach us. So… Right. So, I think this was also this kind of critical… You know, I remember what you’re saying now.
It’s just so many memories are coming up in my mind now of those years with, with my guru. And, and, like he, I remember him telling me, he says, people are coming up to, devotees are coming up to me all the time and saying, oh, it’s great that you’re going into that academic world to influence them. But he said, actually, you know, he said they don’t get it that actually the primary reason I’m going there is how they influence me.
You know, like, he, he was going there to learn. People didn’t understand that, right? He was actually going into that world to learn. And, and, but, but, but because Prabhupada’s teachings and Prabhupada’s example was so integrated into his mind and his heart, he would go there to learn, ultimately, to use it to serve.
Yes. And, so, yeah, that’s, that’s a, that’s a, that’s a great way, useful, useful construct there. That’s interesting.
But, yeah, there’s, we have to be, yeah, we have to be open. So, so those years of my spending time with him was him opening my mind to some of that, that kind of thinking. So, were you also, a little uncomfortable with that initially or because it was coming from your spiritual master, it naturally was something which you found acceptable? I don’t remember being uncomfortable with it.
Yeah, maybe I was a little bit at first. I’m not sure, to be honest, I don’t, but I don’t remember being uncomfortable with it. I, I, I think he kind of was already molding my mind to think a little bit like that already.
but, it was, uh, interesting. And, and I remember also, uh, you’re bringing that up, reminded me also that he said, um, I, I remember this distinctly. One, one time he turned to me and he said that, that, that, and, and I want to be careful when I say this because, um, he was speaking to me privately and, and, um, he wasn’t speaking in any way to, in a way that wasn’t appreciative of others’ service, but he was trying to get me, I felt he was trying to get me to think creatively.
And so more or less, I don’t remember the exact words, but what he said was, the temples in America are no longer effective the way they were in terms of reaching people with this message. And someone has to figure out how to reach people again, in a new way. And, um, and he said, and, and he says, and I don’t know what that’s going to be, but I can tell you one thing.
It’ll have more to do with teaching than it’ll have to do with preaching. That, that, I always remember that he, he told me that. Beautiful.
yeah. So in any case, so you were asking how I got into yoga eventually. And so this is all connected with that.
Yeah, I understand now. Yeah. So, so after, um, after 13 years as a book distributor and a brahmachari, I got married.
Um, and shortly after that, he passed away. So I got, I got married in 2001. He passed away six months later, or maybe, maybe eight months later, something like that.
I, I got married in, uh, the, the, uh, in, in June of 80 of June of 2001. And he passed away, I believe in March of 2002. So in less than a year, he passed away.
And, uh, by that time I’m living in New York city with my wife. And, um, trying to figure out how I’ll serve, you know, um, um, in one sense, that was, you know, that 13 years of, of brahmacharya, that was my education. You know, that was, that was my university, but there’s not a lot of jobs, not a lot of paying jobs out there for it.
Yeah. But, um, but, but I was, you know, I felt good. I felt like I had a good, I felt like I had a good, um, training and I was in New York city, which is a place where I was excited to be, uh, back there again.
And, um, and, and looking around, seeing what’s happening in the city. And, you know, in terms of what our devotees doing and, and, uh, what could I do and what could I do to serve my guru? And at this point in my life, my relationship with Radha Swami had been growing. Um, and particularly now that my guru had passed on, it was really him that I, when, when I wanted to make some major decisions about my own life, I, I was really going to him.
So he, he had no official role in New York city at the time, but he was coming through regularly. And, um, after about a year or so in New York city, I came to him with an idea. Um, and that was, um, again, going back to what my guru said that the temples are, are not so effective in reaching people with this message.
Um, and so I, I brought up an idea and I, I want to be careful. I don’t want to say like the whole thing was my idea or something like that, but I did, you know, I did kind of approach him one evening. It was the, the night after Ratha Yatra, the night of the Ratha Yatra in 2003.
And I said to him, you know, um, I’m thinking that maybe we should all be getting together and working on like creating a cultural center rather than a temple, but like a center in the city, that’s kind of presenting a broader yoga culture where like on one floor, there could be a temple, you know, in a Kirtan going on, but on another floor, there could be a Bhagavad Gita talk going on and another floor, there’s a restaurant and there’s yoga classes and there’s, you know, meditation classes and, you know, a, a kind of a broader approach that would be easier for people to walk into and find some kind of relevant way to connect to it. He was like, yes, you know, we should do this. And I said to him, well, what’s the first step? And I was thinking something like, you know, you look for, for a building, you know, a property or something like that.
And he said, you should become a yoga teacher. Uh, that’s the first step. And I was, you know, that was surprising to me.
I had, and I had never had any particular interest in asana before. I hadn’t practiced it at all. Uh, I had no real connection with it.
Um, but I just kind of said, okay, you know, if that’s, if that’s what you’re asking me to do, that’s what I’ll do. And, uh, the next day I was, you know, in the yoga studios in New York, kind of trying to find a place to get trained in yoga. Um, so that’s how I went into the, the, the, um, yoga world, the yoga asana world was really a Ravana Swami’s order.
You know, I call it order. He called it an order when he said it. Yeah.
So can you tell a little bit about your understanding of how American society or American culture itself had changed by this time? Means, uh, yoga. I don’t think it was that popular in the 1980s. Yeah.
Uh, yeah. Well, this was not yet. This is now 2003 that I entered into yoga, which is kind of when it was just starting to boom in America.
Oh, okay. Yeah. And, and so, um, how yoga had changed, you’re asking, like broadly American society itself has had changed in certain ways because of which say, like Maharaja also said that, uh, our approaches, we, our temples are not being able to reach, and that’s why we need to do something else.
So why do you feel was the need to do something else? Was it just because say the, the counterculture was our primary demographic and that counterculture itself, uh, ran out of steam and no demographic to address? Was that the promise of the counterculture was never met. Yeah. You know, uh, you know, the, the beautiful world that the hippies thought was going to come never quite came.
Hmm. And so like you said, like, you know, the, the kind of, you know, the, it had no more wind left in its sails, so to say. And so a certain more of a kind of a cynicism or, I don’t know if cynicism is the right word, but more of a, you know, they call that next generation, the me generation, you know, people began to think less about, Oh, society is going to become this beautiful thing and we’re going to change the world.
And people just started thinking more about making money and taking care of themselves. Hmm. And, um, and so again, in the sixties you would have, you know, large numbers of young people that were really ready to change their life drastically in the search for some kind of higher ideal.
Hmm. Uh, and I think by the time the eighties kicked in, that was largely gone. And so, you know, what to, to a, maybe to a teenager in the sixties, early seventies, when they would see devotees chanting in the street, they would think, Oh, this is beautiful.
These are people onto something. They’re, you know, they’re not interested in the materialistic things. They’re interested in finding a new way of living and, and, and so on.
They may have been, that would have been attractive to them to someone in the eighties. They would probably look at the same people and say, these people are lost, you know, not the world’s never going to change and they’re not going to change it. And if they’re smart, they would figure out, you know, how to, how to find a better circumstance for themselves.
You know, I, I’d imagine that’s a real generalization, but something like that, let’s say something like that. Oh, okay. That’s, nice.
Uh, I mean, that’s a very articulate way of putting it that it’s like, we were, when people are looking for a radical solution, we present our, we were like a very evident radical solution, but when we, the people are not looking, when people are not looking for the radical solution, then we appear just completely irrelevant. Yes. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. I guess you could sum it up that way.
Yeah. So then this was already. so you could say that you were probably a part of the remnants of, uh, that alternative kind of culture in the eighties and well, I suppose you could say that.
Yeah, but it was a new, it was a new one. of course. But it one, but it’s one that never took off the way that the hippie thing did.
It was, it was more underground. Yeah. So in a sense, my understanding of how, how yoga is seen in the Western world is that whereas in the past, the counterculture was looking for an entirely different way of living.
When, when people are looking for yoga, it’s not so much for an entirely different way of living as for adding value to the way they are presently living. Yeah, that’s, that’s a great way to say it, I think. And, and, you know, now to fast, maybe I could just mention something else and then, but then come back to this point.
Yeah, please. Is that, um, so Rana Swami instructed me to become a yoga teacher. In the context of my teaching people, yoga in a cultural center that did not exist at that time.
Right. Oh, okay. That’s a really long term vision then.
Yeah, at least, you know, some years. And so that was in 2003. It was in 2000, I think it was about 2007 that we got the building that would become the Bhakti Center.
So that was four years down the road. And another couple of years before we were really doing programming, even had the name, the Bhakti Center or presenting programming, like my finally teaching yoga. Seven years after that was when I actually became authorized to teach yoga and began to teach it at the Bhakti Center.
But by that time, I had so many other duties and services, even for Rana Swami to do. And in terms of the center in general, that it was really kind of time consuming for me to be a yoga teacher. And there were other people that could teach yoga.
But what, what, by him giving me that instruction, what it did for me was really significant. It put me back in downtown New York, which is one of the most influential centers of, you know, social centers in the world. It put me back.
You know, I had just dropped out of that world as a monk for the past, you know, 13 years and then a couple more on top of that. So about 15 years. And it dropped me right back into the, the world that I was in.
But now we’re all a little bit more grown up. And in the yoga, in the yoga center where I focused, which was called Ashtanga Yoga, New York. It was a really interesting place where you had a lot of really interesting people.
Creative in all different kinds of ways. You had a lot, yes, a lot of the most famous people in the world practicing yoga there. But even that was kind of an underground place.
A lot of the most famous musicians in the world, famous actors, writers, musicians. And then, you know, everyone else was, you know, moving that city in one way or another, you know, like just a lot of what to speak of yoga teachers, you know? And, and it was a place that was had a strong kind of yoga tradition happening there. The teacher was Eddie Stern, a close friend of mine.
I believe you’ve met Eddie. He’s come to the Eco Village not so long ago. and so there was an interest in going deeper into the tradition of yoga there.
More so than I think in far more so than in your average yoga center. And I was walking in there with now 15 years or so of experience in that world. Okay.
But I was, you know, but this is, this is the thing. I stepped out of the bubble at that point, right? I was, even though as a brahmachari, I was always meeting with the public, presenting books to the public and so on. But now for the first time I was actually like living with them and even developing friendships with them, which I really wasn’t doing as a monk.
My, my, my life as a monk was more cloistered in a sense, you know, and that was important. How seeing how our teachings and our philosophy, how it appealed to these people, what about it was appealing to them was important for me to understand, you know, and in that center I became the, there was a temple in that yoga center. And then eventually it was a Ganesh temple.
And then we added a Radha Krishna temple and I became the temple cook and I began to teach not asana, but philosophy there and develop a lot of relationships. Are you talking about the bhakti center or some other temple? No, no, no, this was Ashtanga Yoga Center, which eventually we called the Broom Street Temple. Okay.
And, and so that was a place where I really began to reconsider how to relate with people as a bhakti yoga practitioner, as a Hare Krishna devotee, how to present Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavatam to people, what they found appealing about it, what was relevant about it. Cause the point that you just made, you know, that, yeah, if I’m counterculture and looking for an alternative, then yeah, those Hare Krishna people, that’s definitely a, you know, bold alternative, you know, lifestyle. But if I’m not looking for some drastic alternative lifestyle, then it could seem just very foreign and odd.
So seeing what it was about asana, what it was about yoga philosophy, that this wide group of influential dynamic people were interested in, that was very educational experience for me. And so the years that I spent practicing there, which was 2003 till about 2012 or so, I made a lot of great relationships and I had a lot of, you know, it was another type of training for me. You know, in a sense, you were doing in the yoga world, what Tamal Krishna Maharaj was doing in the academic world.
Learning how to share rather than simply sharing. Yes. In a sense.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s what happened.
And so, therefore, I really have always appreciated Radhanath Swami’s instruction. I call it order. At the time, he actually ordered me.
He actually used that word, but as the years passed, he does. I didn’t order you. You know, I was just a suggestion.
You know, he says like that, but I embraced it as he actually did use the word order and I embraced it as an order and the wisdom in it, the way that it’s played out in my life has been really important. And so now that brings us to the point that you shared that I’m trying to remember the point now, but it was about it had to do with the relevance of this in my life rather than I’m not searching for drastic lifestyle change. Yeah.
It’s like adding value to my life versus looking for alternative way of living. Yes. Right.
So how does it add value to my life? So just one minute, when you’re talking about this downtown New York, it does seem that many of the people were a part of the, you could call it the mainstream society or at least not a part of the fringe of society because you’re talking about musicians, writers. And so yoga is practiced, I would say quite a lot by the mainstream and the upper crust of society, isn’t it? It’s not like counterculture. So what was the demographic that you were reaching in that, in that place? Well, it was a unique group of people.
Because like I say, you see, it was a unique yoga center because it had had a, because of the teacher Eddie Stern, it had a very strong traditional feel to it. Okay. And so people that had an interest in that naturally ended up there.
And, but also he became, he was known as a quality teacher. And there wasn’t, yoga wasn’t nearly as widespread at that point as it is now. So there are less alternatives of where to go.
And if you started inquiring, where can I find a really good yoga teacher? A lot of people got turned on to him. And a lot of those people were actually, you know, there amongst them were like celebrities, like, you know, people like Madonna and people like, you know, some of the most famous musicians in the world. And some of the, you know, like I’m saying, people that are writing for the New York Times, you know, people that are, you know, making movies, you know, that are well respected, you know, people that are, you know, just all different varieties of people that were dynamic, you know, because that’s what New York City offers in one sense.
a lot of those people are gathered there. And so this, this particular center really had a, you know, a lot of dynamic people there. So you could say in one sense, the whole thing was a little bit counterculture because yoga wasn’t as well known.
And this studio wasn’t advertised and everything, but these were people that were known in society, you know, in one way or another. Okay. So in one sense, we cannot even homogenize the yoga scene because that will also be dependent on the particular teacher, the particular place.
And you’ll also be quite diverse. Yes. Yeah.
Makes sense. So then when you are bringing this point that you were asking what from our culture, our philosophy will speak to these people. So you were asking that question.
So what, what was the answer that you came up with? Well, it was, I tell you, it’s an answer that gradually reveals itself. You know, it’s, it’s not like, um, you finally get the answer and then you just change everything. But it’s something that I, this is the way that I view it is that how to reach more and more people.
It’s something that when devotees get together, uh, and they served in the right mood, with the right desire, with the right guidance, and with patience, you know, Krishna reveals what we’re meant to do next, what we’re meant to do next. And I saw that at the Bhakti Center. You know, that’s what I really saw at the Bhakti Center, that in one sense, um, Radhasoami was always ahead of everyone in, in, in really in, in the terms of the, the instructions that he was giving.
But it, it takes us a while to really understand the essence of it or how to apply that essence. And step-by-step, like, it feels like when you are serving, when a group of people comes together and serves, puts aside egos, puts aside agendas, uh, takes shelter of, of more advanced devotees and, and is ready to, to sacrifice and be patient, that it feels like then Krishna reveals step-by-step what to do. And, and when he reveals it, it almost feels like, oh, that was obvious.
Why didn’t we realize it before? You know, so, um, I would say that, you know, what, what some of the things that, that I began to understand through years of serving with the Bhakti Center was that, um, one, that people’s minds have been changed. And when I say their minds, I mean like the, the state of their minds or the, the ability of their minds, that if you go back to the 60s and the 70s, you’re really living in a very different world. And by the time, like say where we are now, you know, 2021, where, you know, there’s three decades of personal computers use, right? There’s the one and a half decades of social media consumption and, you know, involvement.
And, um, I think those things have really shaped people’s minds or their, their ability to think in certain ways, you know, um, it’s, it’s affected them mentally, it’s affected them emotionally. And, uh, it’s, it creates, you know, you need to respond to that. You need to recognize and respond to that.
So for instance, here, here’s an idea that like I give a book to someone in 1970 and they have a particular mind that’s been developed by how they’ve been raised and how they’ve grown up. And so on. They take that book, they have an interest in book and in the book, and they have an interest in reading in general, and they have an interest in philosophy and they read the book and they’re moved by it and they decide they want to learn more.
And now in this day and age, you give a book to a person and they look at the pictures of it. And then they set aside and never read it. You know, because their minds, their, their attention spans are so short, it’s just even hard for them.
So now how do you get a person to read that book? And like in the Bhakti Center, you know, you know, gradually, you know, we developed, um, you know, one, one of the devotees, Rasika Gopi, you know, she, she, um, began doing these reading groups. You know, it’s not that other people weren’t having reading groups, but as devotees, we never really had reading groups. You know, if you want to come in and learn Bhagavad Gita, you walk into a Sunday feast lecture and someone lectures on, sort of on Bhagavad Gita, and then you walk away.
and, uh, here was an idea like, oh, I could get together with a supportive group, right? And make some friendships. I, I want friendships. And I, and I need, and, and if I don’t have a supportive group, I’m never going to even finish this book.
But because I joined the group, I feel a certain social support. That, that makes me, when the evening rolls around after a long day of work, I pick up the book rather than turn on the television. Because I know tomorrow I’m going to be at the meeting, and I won’t even have anything to say if I don’t read.
But, and I want to read, and I want to have something to say. So, by being in that reading group, I’m actually going to work my way through that book, open my mind to it, hear other people’s, um, thoughts on it in the group. Be able to present my questions in that group.
Uh, have them answered in a, in a sympathetic way in that group. You know, these are needs that, that I think people really have nowadays, um, that were less pressing, say, in 1970 as there are in 2020, you know? So I think, you know, step by step, uh, how to, you know, what people need to, to practice was kind of, um, being revealed to us at the Bhakti Center, you know? And, and I want to say it’s not the only way, or, you know, people can, you know, I respect people that are presenting bhakti in, in so many ways, but this is the way that we kind of began to present and began to understand things. And, um, so I, I think there, there, there are certain, you know, we need to recognize that people’s minds have been weakened in a way through computers and through social media.
I think that’s just a fact, you know? It’s just a cultural, social fact. Um, I think people are working longer hours than they had in the past, you know? Their, their jobs are more demanding. Their jobs continue even after they go home because of email and texting and, and so on.
So people, their time is shorter, you know, they, they don’t have as much freedom of time. I think we need to recognize that, you know? Um, I think, you know, um, I think that people’s minds are, um, there’s a certain, well, let me say this. Let’s move on now from Bhakti Center and some of the things that we discovered there.
And by the way, like there, I’d say some of the most important lessons that we learned were the need for hospitality in a center like that. Okay. Just one minute.
If you don’t mind, I would just like to respond to this. You know, the way social media has changed things. It struck me also to say, I became a Brahmachari in 96 and I was introduced in 96.
I became a Brahmachari in 98. And literally, I don’t think, I read a newspaper till 2010. Hmm.
The only thing in those years as a Brahmachari, as a Brahmachari, the only time I read it was somebody brought it after 9 11. There was a big disaster and somebody had brought a newspaper to the temple and I read it. Yeah.
So, I was completely out of the, you could say, the social loop. Not that I read newspapers extensively now, but I was completely like on a different planet during that time. And then we were doing our outreach.
I was primarily involved in college programs. But then, slowly, as the internet started moving forward, you know, distraction was one thing that struck me. But there’s another thing that struck me, and it became even more evident when I started traveling to the West, that people’s level as well as capacity of skepticism has increased.
If I as a speaker make a statement, I remember one of my friends, he gave a talk. And at the end, it is like a talk in America. He had come from India with the Indian didactic way of teaching.
And he gave a talk to a university in America. And after that, one boy, he said, you know, I remember during your talk, I was Googling, you made 33 factual mistakes in your talk. So that was a bit provocative or extreme.
But the point is, there is also not just a rebellious rejection of authority, but people have more resources available to question authority. And if we are not used to that, if we are not used to that, that kind of audience, then it can, it can become very acrimonious. So I felt that, you know, the vertical way of speaking and the more horizontal way of speaking, I find that in the Bhakti Center and most of the devotees that I have seen, like even Radha Atmaraj, I would say he has evolved.
He may have used the word instruction, but now he’s saying suggestion. So, so I also had that. So I would say that is one thing also that the, the audience has changed in the sense that we cannot be that vertical in our presentation.
Yeah, please continue. Yeah. So I feel that this was, even now this strikes me, say when I am speaking in India and when I’m speaking in America, the, it’s not just the way I naturally, my speaker, I don’t try to be too vertical anytime.
But the way audience deals with me and the way audience deals with me in the Western world, there’s a radical difference in the two. And unless I think, I think that’s a major, major difference between the world, between the world, maybe 20, 30 years ago. And now, what do you think? 100%.
And that was exactly the point that I was actually working towards, but you just expressed it so well. Yeah. The way that you said it, that horizontal rather than vertical, I was going to say condescension is a huge block, right? Like, in other words, I’ll say this, you know, you say that there’s, that there’s a difference in India and in the United States with that.
Do you find India moving in that direction where you need to speak more vertically than horizontal or more horizontally than vertically, or still you can speak? No, I would say that it again depends, you know, India is a huge country and the Hindi speaking audience is one, the English speaking audience is different. So I would say the way I speak in India, in Mumbai, even any preachers also, the way they speak in Mumbai would be different from, say, the way they might speak in some smaller town in the heartland of India. Sure.
So definitely there is a change. It’s moving toward that direction. And in many ways, in India, although our movement is spreading in significant ways, we are not really reaching the opinion leaders of society, the culture shapers of society.
We could say we are reaching people who already have a certain level of piety and receptivity. And this is not a criticism, this is just an observation. So in that sense, even now to some extent, the horizontal approach, the vertical approach will work.
But even the existence of something like a Govardhaniko village, where people can come and be themselves, they don’t have to have that reverence of being in a temple. They can go for a walk, they can be with animals, they can go on a trek. So that itself is a forum, I would say, for helping people to connect with spirituality, the spiritual environment at a horizontal level rather than the vertical level.
Okay, this is where your engineering mind is so helpful, right? You should have someone design a video that’s showing this. When we’re coming on this vertical, it’s going to reach a certain amount of people, but when you turn it horizontally, it’s going to open you up to a much wider field. And that, I feel, is a very crucial, crucial concept for anyone trying to present bhakti in the Western world.
You know, one thing that Raghunath and I have really, really become crystallized in our minds through the Wisdom of the Sages podcast, and if you would have said to us two years ago that there would be like thousands of people every day listening to Bhagavatam coming from all different backgrounds, it would have been surprising to us. I think one of the reasons why it’s able to reach people and connect with people and interest people is the idea that we’re not trying to present ourselves as gurus, as highly enlightened people. We kind of can understand ourselves and try to present ourselves as we’re like you.
We’re people in this world that are struggling. We’re struggling with our minds, we’re struggling with our senses, we’re struggling with our families, we’re struggling with our jobs, we’re struggling with all the things that, you know, we’re just like you. What we do have is, you know, three decades of training and study and experience in bhakti yoga, and this changes our lives.
And so we’re people just like you, and if you hear about this, it might change your life too. It might enrich your life in a similar way. That level of communication, I think, has potential to just go very, very wide.
And I think, you know, let’s say ISKCON in the Western world, you know, if you go back two decades or something like that, I don’t think that was so necessarily so widely understood. And more or less, you know, we had a picture of Srila Prabhupada, okay, you sit on the elevated seats, you get the garland, and then you pontificate from that platform. And it is, you know, even without a negative connotation, but it is condescension, right? It is, I’m more enlightened than you.
I have a superior understanding, you know, of life and truth than you. I’m going to present it to you now, you know. That, whether it’s an emotion, you know, I’m sure it’s largely an emotional thing, but even just on the practical level, for that person to understand that this person has something relevant to share in my life, it doesn’t get communicated nearly as well.
And all the imagery that goes with that, whether it might be how I dress or how I carry myself or the subtleties in the language that I use, the attitude in which I answer a question, people feel that and they pick up on that. And they feel, my observation is that people feel comfortable and open when you present yourself as, hey, you know, that’s a great question. It’s a question that I ask myself a lot too.
I don’t claim to be the big guru here, but this is, when I look at the Bhagavad Gita, it says this, and when I’ve applied in my life like this, it’s worked in this way and it’s been helpful for me. And when you communicate with people on that horizontal kind of platform, they’re much more open and what you’re presenting feels much more relevant to them. And then let them, if they want to see you in some way as superior, in some way as having more to offer, then that has to develop organically.
It can’t be assumed or claimed without it being earned. Beautifully put, you know. So there is, in India, if you are a spiritual teacher, there is an assumption of authority that you can assume that you have a certain level of authority.
And I read something interesting about, say, the psychology of the counterculture and how so many gurus were successful at that time. So one thing which struck me, it seems that even when there is a rebellion, people don’t lose the basics of their upbringing. So what happens is that they may reject one authority, but then once they, if they find a truly trustworthy authority, then they can accept that authority with the same or even greater submission than the kind of authority they had in their life previously.
So we could say in the 50s, 60s, everybody grew up in a more vertical culture. And although they rejected one vertical aspect, they could accept another vertical aspect when they found one with integrity, like they found Srila Prabhupada in the 70s. But in the 2000s, people have not grown with any authority at all.
Suddenly when they come to a spiritual tradition, they expect to accept authority. It doesn’t work. You know, I think that’s, you summed it up very well there.
And, you know, I would like to share this too, is that for this to really work, in other words, to reach people on that horizontal level, it’s not merely a mental adjustment or an adjustment in presentation, but it’s also like you really do have to conceive of yourself that way too. You know, like you really have to develop genuine friendships. You really have to adopt an attitude that, yeah, I’m fallen, you know.
Devotees, we think that we have to present ourselves as unfallen for people to hear from us. But really people want to hear from someone that’s fallen and dealing with the same struggles that they’re dealing with. And so when you come through with that attitude in a real genuine way, I think it opens up the doors.
And that, you know, another thing that Raghunath and I have really seen and felt through our experience with Wisdom of the Sages is like, you know, suddenly we had, you know, 5,000, 6,000, 7,000 people listening to this Bhagavatam presentation every day. And we’re trying to understand who are they and why are they here and, you know, why are they listening? And we’ve found that there’s a lot of parallels. A lot of the people that were listening had experience with 12-step programs, which quite, you know, the fact is there’s a lot of people in the world, you know, have experience with 12-step programs at this point.
And they somehow were appreciative of the way that things were presented. And I think that what’s there in the 12-step programs, we can learn a lot from. Again, that idea of it being horizontal rather than, you know, every speaker gets up and says, I’m an alcoholic.
My name is this and I’m an alcoholic. Rather than some person that’s not an alcoholic getting up there and telling everyone, you know, what the truth is. It’s coming from a place of a more horizontal place.
And the idea of having group support as well, that both of these ideas are really essential in reaching a wider audience. For someone to step up and say, hi, my name is Kastuba and I’m also a fallen conditioned soul. You know, I don’t have to try to present myself as anything else.
And, you know, I have my struggles in life too. I’m even willing to share them with you. And this is how I apply the teachings of Bhakti to it.
That’s a way that people’s ears will start to open up more. And then to be there for them. The mood of mentorship that’s there in the 12-step programs and the mood of group support.
I think those are things that are helpful and that give people the chance to actually practice this regularly. So you are talking about the 12 steps. Yeah.
So a lot of people can connect with that. So this is very, I mean, maybe we can move from the, you talked about Bhakti Centre and you came to the wisdom of the sages. I think it happened organically.
But when you’re talking about this, I have been reading a lot about Bhaktivinod Thakur and Bhaktivinod Thakur was not exactly an institutional person. But I read that at that time, through his regular magazines, he like cultivated a virtual community in Bengal through his magazine articles and through his publications. Not that he actually met people.
He would meet them. But he had a job. He had a family.
He couldn’t travel. But it was just through his writing, he was cultivating. And he was actually cultivating, able to connect with a good number of people who were quite thoughtful.
The Bhadraloka was primary audience. And if you read Bhaktivinod Thakur’s writings also, they are not that vertical. It’s quite horizontal.
He’ll use some stories, some novel format to seep in teaching rather than just instruct. So in one sense, I would say what you’re doing in the wisdom of the sages, it is actually very much grounded in our tradition. Thank you for sharing that.
That’s encouraging. Amazing. So these 12 steps, are you actually reformulating bhakti in the form of 12 steps or you’re basically providing some similar support groups? We actually do have recovery groups that the wisdom of the sages has started.
So six times a week online we have bhakti recovery meetings that are based on 12 steps, that are led by people with years of experience in 12-step programs. So that’s there for sure. But I was speaking in a more general sense, that just some of the ideas that you have there in 12-step, where it’s not like there’s the person that comes in and pontificates, but it’s like people sharing, I’m like you, I struggle like you do.
Here’s how I apply this in my life. I need it every day. If I don’t get it, I’m in trouble.
I need you and I need all of you in my life, and let’s work on this together. That’s like real essential. Not that that’s necessarily even done in a formal way, but that there’s a mood.
But I’ll say this too, and that is I think small groups, and that’s again I think something that was there in Bhaktivinoda Thakur, how his outreach in Bengal and so on, that it involves small group meetings and things like that. I think those are real important places. If I were to say that there’s one aspect, like we say that my guru mentioned that the temples weren’t so effective, in my mind if I had to pinpoint it on one, what’s one point that’s a reason for that? It might be that I could walk into a lot of ISKCON temples and go there every Sunday, because that’s like the big public program, and go there for 10 years and never really feel like I can fully express my doubts or my fears or my confusions or something like that.
I go and someone gives a class. I may not feel comfortable speaking up. I may not have the time or the space to really articulate where I’m at or why I’m struggling.
I might not develop real close friendships. So groups really help address those problems that I’m going to meet people. I’m going to get to know them.
I’m going to be able to express exactly what’s on my mind and knowing that I’m doing it where I’m not going to be judged for that. That’s the kind of stuff that’s there in 12-step programs that I think our temples need. If I come to your place, I have a bunch of questions and I need to be able to sit down and talk with people about it.
I need to be able to express where I’m at, not feel judged for it, and feel I have some support there. I think those are all real important. You know, as you’re thinking, it struck me that our ISKCON’s educational format, which in some way draws from the traditional way things were taught, it is more for education for people who have already various connections with the community, with the spiritual center, and you’re already a part of the culture and you get some further education.
But what you’re talking about is the educational forum is the way for connection. And that’s a different way of envisioning it itself. So there are people who do not have, so say the temple Bhagavatam class or the Brahmachari class or the evening Gita class as was there, if the people are already staying in the temple or staying nearby, they already have connections.
And this is just to learn more. But what we are talking about is to connect more. Yeah, and both have to be there.
I won’t even learn because I don’t have the peace of mind to sit down and read a book from end to end. I need group support even just to learn. But I need more than just learning too.
I need the group support emotionally or even to dig down into the real issues of why I’m not fully giving my mind and my heart to this. You know, to advance in bhakti, it means ultimately I have to fully give my heart. And unless I can really… You know, Raghunath and I, we answer questions every Saturday on Wisdom of the Sages.
People write in their questions and we answer them. And we’re getting questions that people wouldn’t ask in the middle of a Sunday feast talk. You know, this is my situation.
My husband or my wife isn’t a devotee. Or when I go to work, this is the circumstance. Or my people in my home eat meat.
Or do I need to completely refrain from sex in order to practice this? Or I want to refrain from sex, but I don’t know if my husband’s ready for that. You know, these are real questions, real important questions that people need to have answered if they’re going to be able to practice this. And they need a form where they can do that and feel free to do that.
Again, without feeling judged for it. Yeah, it’s almost like, to put it in more of our traditional categories of knowledge, you know, we have Sambandha Gyan, we emphasize that a lot. You’re not the body or the soul.
And we talk about Prayojan. We all want to become pure devotees of Krishna. But the Abhidheya, we reduce it to a very simplistic following of rules.
But how to go about the challenges when we are trying to follow the Abhidheya, we are not so real about that. And what I can see is that that’s what you’re trying to do. So, most of our classes are, you know, how to improve your practices of bhakti or how to improve your understanding of the philosophy, which is good.
But, you know, I have to live a life. And how does my bhakti practice interact with the rest of my life? And how do I deal with the challenges? Yeah. Thank you.
Yeah, yeah. You know, and another thing that I’ll share, and I think it’s related to this, but we need to recognize what aspects of our culture and our philosophy are relevant or are attractive to people. For instance, if I were to say to someone, God is a person, right? And you can shake His hand and you can know Him and the goal of life is to serve Him.
That’s going to narrow down. You know, just like that presentation right there, I’m going to find a narrow audience that’s going to be receptive to that. Now, if I were to say that in the East, and from this ancient yoga tradition, there’s a conception of God in three different aspects.
That there’s an all-pervasive aspect of God. That there’s an aspect of God within the heart of every living being. And then there’s also a personal aspect of God.
Just that message is much easier and far more intriguing. It feels mature. It feels like there’s something.
Oh, you’ve opened up my mind to something that I’ve never thought of it that way. I want to go deeper into that. And if I just say God’s a person, then I’m not so interested in that message.
How we present the same exact books, but how we present them, becomes really important. Or for instance, concepts like this. Concepts like, well, what am I going to get from reading your Bhagavad Gita? Well, you learn Krishna is God and that you surrender to Krishna and that that’s the purpose of life.
You’re not going to find such a receptive audience to that. But if you can say that the Bhagavad Gita teaches how to become a wise person. How we can move through this world and even though it’s constantly changing, that there’s a spiritual truth that because I’m made of spiritual energy, I never change.
And I can learn through wisdom with knowledge of the law of karma, with knowledge of the influence of time, with the knowledge of how the gunas work. I can begin to see this world through different eyes and the same things that would have disturbed me or upset me or tortured me previously, I can move through this world happy and content with an even mind all the time. That’s what the Bhagavad Gita teaches.
Oh, well, that’s something I can use. And then what to speak of. And then from that platform, I’ll be able to understand the point and the purpose of my life and go deeper into real true spirituality.
Oh, that I want to know about. That’s relevant to me. So I think we need to look at books like the Bhagavad Gita and see that everything people want is there.
We just haven’t always been, you know, really clear in understanding what it is, you know, how they can understand it and accept it and be intrigued by it or be interested in it. Beautiful. Again, going back to this point, what I mean, the way you spoke about these two things, I would like to just flesh it out a bit.
So rather than again, that exact conception of God, rather than giving like a vertical, it’s more horizontal. There are three aspects. Oh, that means, you know, I can connect with, I can, what can I relate with? I have options.
It’s not that the truth is cut and dry and either you accept it or you have no place over here. So that it gels with that vertical, horizontal dynamic. And this aspect of, you know, in many ways, I present the Gita in this way, but I didn’t think of articulating it this way in that, that while we talk about the concept of sthita pragya, to stay equipoised, but rather than saying that we should stay equipoised, we talk about how the Bhagavad Gita helps us to ground us in the unchanging part within us and then not be so disturbed by the world’s ups and downs.
So in a sense, again, it goes back to adding value to my life, instead of alternative way of living. Yes, there is a God and you can love God and you can be happy with him in the, in his world. It’s a different way of living.
So, you know, this is, you talked about the parts of our philosophy which are relevant or attractive. So how do you present some of the more vertical or demanding parts, say like the regulative principles or a commitment to a particular level of chanting or even initiation, requiring the precondition of doing some things. So do you see those definitions of success as relevant in the contemporary scene? You know, how do we measure our outreach or so many people became initiated or so many, how do you see all that now? Well, yeah, I think all those things can be explained in ways that will make sense to people and that will even make them more interested.
But I do think we do have to be careful about those measures of success, that we, I don’t know, that we don’t make them the prerequisites to be involved directly with us. But let’s take initiation. Okay.
What we’re presenting is that, it’s like this. What’s presented in these ancient yogic texts, and just to begin the answer, I would say that this is where like my years of entering into that yoga world, they were really helpful for me. Because when we explain our things, not so much in terms of like, let’s say faith or religion, but in terms of yoga and more like the science of how the mind works, that’s far more appealing to a wider audience.
So if I say what we’re presenting is, what’s been presented for thousands of years, is that there’s material energy and there’s spiritual energy. We’re composed of spiritual energy. We have a mind and body that’s composed of material energy.
And the mind is very much like a computer that’s been programmed with different ideas of what’s going to make me happy. And I’ve become a slave to those ideas and that’s what’s causing me all my anxiety. Okay, that’s an interesting presentation and we can go into further depth on that.
So how do we counter that? Now, an incredibly super powerful way to counter that is by bringing the mind to spiritual energy. And the great teachers in this tradition have identified places where that spiritual energy is very vibrant and potent. One of them is in these mantras, right? One of them is in books like these sacred texts, that these are not ordinary, but these have very powerful deep spiritual effect.
So the point is that if I can expose my mind daily, every day, rather than expose it to the junk food of television and Netflix and these other things which I’m habituated to and which haven’t elevated my consciousness, if I expose myself to these powerful, potent spiritual substances, that my mind will become spiritualized by it, just like putting an iron rod into a fire. Okay. So still, what’s the need for initiation? Why can’t I just chant that mantra and be free? Well, because for you to receive the power and the full benefit of that potent mantra, it’s not just like saying, if I have a disease, just give me the medicine and I’ll be done.
No, you need a doctor that’s going to help you understand the diet that you need, the amount of rest that you need. In order for that medicine to fully take effect. And that’s going to be different with every person.
That’s why we need a personal doctor that understands our particular symptoms and that can give us the proper dosage, the proper medicine, the proper dosage, the proper diet, the proper lifestyle. And so that is what initiation is about. Initiation is being initiated into the mantra.
But if I’m not living the right lifestyle, if I haven’t developed the right sentiments, if I’m coming to it with misconceptions, then it’s kind of like I’m not, I haven’t opened myself up to full receptivity of the power of that medicine. And so therefore, regulative principles, right? If I’m not living compassionately, I won’t develop the kind of spiritual compassion that I need to fully connect with that mantra. Even from a yoga point of view, to focus my mind and absorb my mind.
The idea is like I want to take my mind and absorb it in that mantra. Not just like splash a little mantra on it, but I need to absorb my mind in it. And that’s what a yogi does.
That’s what yoga is. It means I can focus and concentrate my mind on one point. And so I need the lifestyle to do that.
I need someone to help me understand, hey, you’ve got your mind caught up in all kind of petty things, petty arguments, petty attachments. You need to let go of them so that when you sit down to absorb your mind in this, it won’t be distracted. So that’s what a guru or a spiritual teacher is meant to help a person do.
That’s going to require the right lifestyle. It’s going to require the right sentiments and the right knowledge. And so that’s what that spiritual teacher is going to help you with so that you can fully derive the benefit from these powerful sources of spiritual energy.
When you’re speaking like that, it sounds so much more rational than just saying, well, this is a mystic thing and the mystic person accepts you into the mystic lineage and something mystic happens. Okay. Yeah.
So it’s like at one level, you have a social connect with people at a personal level. And at another level, we have a rational explanation of things. And I think in India also, if you have to reach to educated people, we do need that rational presentation.
Without that, things don’t make sense. Of course, the specifics of the rationality will be different. The kind of questions people may have will be different.
But the principle is same. And now about the Wisdom of the Seniors podcast. So you are taking directly the Bhagavatam.
Isn’t that a little bit advanced book? Or how did you choose to take the Bhagavatam per se? Say not the Bhagavad Gita, not the Yoga Sutras or something like that. And I saw your classes. You know, you don’t avoid difficult issues.
You take the verses and you, you are able to, you are able to present provocative topics non provocatively. Thank you. Raghunath is a huge help with that too.
The way that it happened was kind of spontaneous. The way that the podcast began was last year. Well, no.
Now it’s two years ago. Not last year, but the year before. It was in about March of that year that I just kind of became inspired by by Seja Kapoor to read Bhagavatam daily, which I hadn’t been doing.
And it’s a fact that, you know, most of us, you know, we just, you know, initiated devotees, we own a set of Bhagavatam, but we just kind of let it sit there collecting dust, you know. So I calculated that if I read 80 verses of Bhagavatam a day and, you know, dipped into purports here or there, but just kind of read the verses, that didn’t take so long. That took about something like 40 to 50 minutes a day, something like that, that within a year, no, within six months, I could read the entire Bhagavatam.
So myself and my wife were reading Bhagavatam every day and just really feeling incredible enlightenment, you know, incredible inspiration from it. And realizing that this is the instruction all along that actually we’re meant to hear Bhagavatam, right? Like, that’s Panchaam Chavakti, hearing Bhagavatam. And as you read Bhagavatam, it’s telling you again and again the value of hearing Bhagavatam.
So I was getting inspired like that. And then Raghunath said, you know, I have a few students that want to do something every morning. And, you know, and I’m thinking doing something, you know, online with them.
And I’m wondering what I should do. And I suggested, why don’t you read Bhagavatam with them every day? So he began doing that. And his group grew from, like, you know, five people to 15 people to 25 people over a series of months.
Now you had 25 people tuning in at 5 a.m. on Zoom to hear Bhagavatam, to hear him discuss it. And then he began to bring me in as an occasional kind of, like, commentator. And then by September or so that month, I became, like, a regular, almost like a co-host.
And the group was growing and growing to about 80 people then by, like, October, November of 2019. And then we said, okay, let’s launch this officially. And we launched it officially as a podcast just a year ago on January 1st last year.
So the idea of Bhagavatam, it wasn’t like it was a plan to reach thousands and thousands of people as some kind of strategy. It was just that’s where the juice was coming from. That’s where the nectar was coming from.
That’s where the inspiration was coming from. But we did find that we were being challenged to present it to people that were less familiar with it. But we found that it was very relevant in their lives.
And this is one point that really became clear to me. And this was really important for me in the development of my own spiritual life. And that is this, is that we were reaching, you know, I think a lot of times ISKCON was trying to reach a young audience, like you try to college age or something like that.
And our listeners were like, I would say, 40 years old might be the median age, you know, for our Wisdom Stages listeners. And these were people that had, that didn’t live as a monk and didn’t have decades of training and so on in yoga or in bhakti. But they had life experience.
They had been married, maybe divorced. They had had kids and had the joys of raising kids, but also had the anxieties and the pains and the tragedies and the disappointments. They had addictions.
They had, you know, started businesses. They were working in places that they, that were challenging, with people that are challenging. They wanted something higher, something spiritual, something real, something beauty and compassion and spirituality.
And they’re looking for it. Now, but they didn’t have the background in it. Now my, I think, not intentionally, but just kind of the way that things just played out in my own training, you know, as a monk in ISKCON, is that almost it’s hard not to develop an idea that, well, you’ve kind of been wasting your life in the material world, and I’ve spent years, you know, training myself in the spiritual world.
So I’m way, way, way ahead of you, you know. And, but what I found was that, what we found, was that when you take that life experience and where it can bring a person, then when you add the Krishna Bhakti philosophy to that, almost immediately the person’s level of faith and acceptance can take off on a very high level, you know. So, I might not have had, you know, so many years of training in the philosophy and so on, but I got to a point in my life where I was just like, I just want God.
I realized that this material life is troublesome and painful, and I really want the truth, and I really want spirituality. Once that soil is that fertile, that when you plant the seed in that, it sprouts very quickly, you know. That’s been my realization.
and it might not even grow as strong as someone who’s living in the ashram, but without all the life experience and without all of the, you know, if I haven’t experienced all that, I might not be as eager and as humble, you know, as someone who’s gone through all that. Awfully put. You know, recently my brother, I have almost a 13 year gap between me and my brother, and he had a baby, his first child.
So, I can see him changing as a person, you know, and just going through that life experience makes him a different person. So, you know, sometimes we just discount all of material life as entangling and illusory, but people evolve through material life, and if at that time, so many things about, he’s not a devotee, he’s favorable, but, you know, I can see now that he’s become a parent, his paradigm has changed. He’s concerned about, say, how I will raise my child properly, what values am I going to give to my child, and there are opportunities for sharing spiritual wisdom based on where people are at in their life experience, and if we just like, again, homogenize their life experience as mundane and illusory and entangling, then we lose that opportunity.
So, it’s interesting. Yeah, you see the demographic of the age of 40, that’s the time when people start, to some extent, re-questioning their life. Some people get into mid-life crisis, and, I don’t think we have tapped that demographic at all.
It seems to me like the best demographic. In fact, I would say, sorry to put it a little differently, you know, we tap people when they are at 20 or 25, and then, their mid-life crisis, they start re-evaluating their spiritual life. Yeah, I can relate to that, exactly.
True, true. Yes. So, it was eye-opening for us.
And then, when you get to your original question, you know, well, Bhagavatam, is it too advanced, or is it relevant? Yeah, Bhagavatam is advanced, but it’s also, you know, it’s all these cantos preparing us for what’s really advanced too, right? So, it’s like, you can take even the most far-out, wild stuff in the Bhagavatam. Like, you take, you know, like Sati going to her, going to, you know, her father’s social sacrifice, and being insulted, and then, the whole thing breaks into a chaotic scene. But like, you’ll find everywhere that there’s real practical life lessons there, you know, in terms of Daksha’s mindset, in terms of Sati’s mindset, in terms of, you know, how Brahma ultimately instructs everyone, you know, and then eventually the prayers that everyone offers to Lord Vishnu in the end.
You know, like, there’s real powerful life lessons throughout the entire thing. You know, we were, this morning, you know, just an hour and a half ago or something, Raghunath and I were, we were doing a recap of the first canto, because we covered the first and second cantos in the first year. So, the first few days of this year, we’re recapping.
And just looking at today, we’re talking about the cursing of Maharaj Prakrit, and the way that he responded, the way that, that Shamika Rishi responded, the way that Shringhi responded. There’s just a wealth of, like, takeaways that someone could put in their own life, you know, that at work, in my family life, that are right there. They’re real genuine, you know, how, how the punishment wasn’t right, you know, it was too much, but Maharaj Prakrit accepted it.
How Shamika Rishi was insulted, but he, he, he didn’t accept it as an insult. He only saw the good that was there in Maharaj Prakrit, and the, the, he saw the insult as being very insignificant. Most people would see the insult as being very significant.
He saw the insult as almost nothing, and all he saw was the genuine qualities, you know, the high qualities, you know, where Shringhi was immature as a spiritualist. He had power, but he didn’t have deep spiritualization, so he took something that was very small, he made it into something very big, you know, and, and, and, and his response was ultimately destructive, you know, so like, Bhagavatam is loaded with practical takeaways for life, and I think that’s what we’re, we’re trying to focus on, is give people, you know, read Bhagavatam, engage our mind in it so that we’re purified every day on a daily basis, but also give people practical takeaways, try to package those, try to draw a circle around them, and, and someone could walk away saying, oh, I’m going to think about that today, I’m going to try to apply that today, I’m going to share that with someone today, that’s what we try to do. That’s beautiful.
You know, I have been studying the epics, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata more, and I’ve written one book on the Ramayana, and I’m writing further, so there, I, I focus more on human lessons from the epics rather than only devotional lessons, and I find that opens the reach much, much more, and in a sense, you are doing that with the Bhagavatam, and while those lessons are there, but quite often they are not emphasized. So, and again, what happens is, if a spiritual text is a source of human values and human wisdom, then people’s connection and appreciation for that text increases, and then, when it starts teaching direct devotional wisdom also, there is a groundwork that is created. Otherwise, if we just present spiritual wisdom and devotional lessons, then it doesn’t connect with people’s life so much.
So, only recently I started viewing the Bhagavatam through this lens, and I’m realizing even in Krishna Leela, there are so many human lessons we can give. We don’t want to reduce Krishna Leela down to the mundane level, but what I see is that it’s like we’re building a ladder. We can connect with Krishna Leela at different levels.
And so, what you’re doing is, I would say, you know, I used to read the Bhagavatam before, the Bhagavatam stories were familiar with us, Bhringakam in India, Bhagavatam or Mahabharata, Ramayana, but it was in the classes of Radhanath Maharaj that I started finding these human values, not just devotional values, and in a sense, now you’re doing it in a more extensive way. And especially if you’re interacting with people, then I can see that you can actually know what the need of the people is also, and then the part of the Bhagavatam which is relevant will sort of jump out to you. I like your metaphor of drawing circles around points or making packages.
That’s very attractive. You’re an expert at it, Prabhu, and I’d love to hear this, and I’m eager to read your books now. Vyasadeva was instructed by Narada to more directly glorify Krishna, but he didn’t give a book like, he could have given a book like, say, one of these esoteric parittis on Raghunuga meditation or something.
He could have done that. He could have said, let me write a book about how to meditate on Krishna’s daily pastimes or how to meditate on his form, and you told me to do that, but he gave this massive work, and as we’re doing the recap, it became still more apparent to me, where does he start? He’s got to glorify Krishna. He’s been told by his guru to more directly glorify Krishna, but he starts with the same characters that we’ve all already fallen in love with in the Mahabharata, Kunti.
We hear from Kunti how Krishna, the whole reason why there’s pearls in the oceans and the fields are fruitful and the trees and the rivers are flowing, is because of Krishna, because he’s put his footprints on the earth. And when I know that, and when I see the connection with him everywhere, and this is where it gets practical, then it doesn’t matter what the calamities in life are, because even the calamities make me remember him more and I feel enlivened and I transcend my life. So we hear from Kunti, we hear from Bhishma, he wants to die right before Krishna, and he gives a whole explanation about how all of these troublesome things in our lives, just try to understand them in context of Krishna and his will.
And then we go to Arjuna, who comes home, Krishna’s just left, and Arjuna’s saying, everything that I accomplished in my life, everything that we’ve accomplished, it was all because of Krishna. And so he takes us right to those characters who are demonstrating the life lessons, and they’re pointing us to that there’s a more esoteric side that we’re going to get to, but they also stress the human side. So I think it’s real helpful for us to understand, again, in presenting bhakti to people, that there’s an esoteric side, which is really the devotional side, the deeply devotional side, and then there’s a very practical side, an exoteric side, which is what people are more quick to understand and be more relevant to people.
And that is those life lessons, having an even mind. How about this? Being kind to others. I think even as a brahmachari, if someone said that, I’d say, OK, you’re teaching some wishy-washy kind of lovey-dovey thing about being kind to everyone.
But actually, that’s Bhagavad Gita. What makes one especially dear to Krishna? One who’s kind to every living entity. And why do I need to be kind to someone? Because if I’m not kind, I get into all kinds of disruptive conflicts.
And then when I go to absorb my mind in the holy name, my mind is distracted because my mind is always full of conflict. There’s those very practical lessons, and then there’s the esoteric. And if we understand, if we can distinguish those two in our mind, clearly, then when it comes time to explain these to people, we’ll be able to do much more.
Like, for instance, I was once at the Bhakti Center, and there was a painting. I was showing some new people the temple, and there was a painting of Krishna lifting Govardhana Hill. And they said, what is this all about? Explain this to me.
And if I were just to immediately explain it purely from the esoteric side, it’s esoteric by definition means that fewer people are going to be able to really understand it. And so I began with, like what I just mentioned earlier, is that within this tradition, this very broad tradition that’s all over India, now around the world, and goes back many thousands of years, they conceived of God, it was kind of nuanced. They believe that God is everywhere.
And they also believe that God is within the heart of every living being. And these are different, really important aspects of ways to understand or think about God. But they also believed that God could be known as a person.
And now already you have them saying, okay, this is new and this is rational. And then I say, so then there are texts that describe that person. And then you get to the point where you’re saying, that divine person’s, their whole enthusiasm and their whole purpose for life is actually in the exchange of love.
And how that love can be exchanged in all kinds of varieties and in all kinds of circumstances. And they’re saying that the way that we search for love in this world is really just a facsimile or a copy of what’s our natural tendency from that spiritual realm. And this is, so you give this kind of context, you know, let me explain the practical to you and explain that there’s an esoteric thing here.
Go ahead and identify it as esoteric. Right? And then, and so if I say to that, I’m going to explain to some, but it’s esoteric. So, without a lot of background in it, it’s hard to fully understand it.
It just kind of opens a person’s mind to new ideas. That’s amazing. So if I just say that that’s God and he’s lifting up a mountain, well, just lost everybody over there almost.
Yes. Yeah. So Bhagavatam, you know, is, I think as long as we’re able to do that, identify the esoteric, bring out the practical stuff, bring out the practical life lessons.
As you were saying, it kind of builds someone’s faith that if this book that’s got so much wisdom, so much practical wisdom, you know, explaining it with consistency and clarity throughout, that when it comes time for the esoteric teachings, I’ll be open to them. And if I’m open to the esoteric teachings, but I don’t, but I don’t embrace the life lessons, then I have a certain level of, my conceptions may be clear, but my practice won’t be effective. Interesting.
I’ll have the Sambandh again, as you were mentioning, but I’m not practicing the Abhidheya. That’s true. So, you know, one of the things when I read Tamal Krishna Maharaj, Servant of Servant, one thing that struck out in Prabhupada’s letters to him was that because you are trying to serve Krishna sincerely, Krishna is giving you the intelligence and Adami Buddhi Yogam Tam, the 10-10 in the Gita, Prabhupada quotes it so many times in the letters that he is sending.
So, what you earlier said about when devotees come together sincerely, patiently, with the desire to learn how to share, then Krishna guides. So, I think this kind of contextualization is something which is so important and we see Prabhupada also did that. Prabhupada, in some ways, when he talked about chanting Hare Krishna, he said, go high and stay high forever.
So, it is not just chanting some esoteric mantra from somewhere which will develop your love of God, but he used that language, that framing, you know, you can go high and stay high forever. So, we could say, in principle, we are following Prabhupada’s example of, although the way we may be presenting may be different, but we are actually following his example and fulfilling his purpose. You do it so well.
You know, one thought I would just like to share too is that, you know, in my involvement in the yoga world, with the Bhakti Center, with Wisdom of the Sages, I am happy and I respect any devotee that is trying to present Krishna consciousness with their own efforts and own ingenuity and own understanding. You know, I really think that the thing that holds us back the most is that we all stand on the side and criticize each other for how they are presenting Krishna consciousness. It is such a waste of time in my mind.
Really, I think that it is really, we can discuss the details of how we present Krishna consciousness, what is more effective, what is less effective and in different contexts. But, to me, the most important thing is really that we appreciate one another and don’t fight with one another about it and don’t waste any energy on that kind of thing. If one person their method is more effective, well, let’s just give it time and see what comes.
And Krishna will reveal the results, will reveal what is more effective or maybe both are effective or all three or all ten ways are all worth pursuing and whoever is pursuing them and that has become the way that they express their devotion and their service, then appreciate it and no need to waste endless hours debating about, theorizing about what’s, like Prabhupada said, we’ll just go out and let your results speak for themselves. So I really, I have appreciation for anyone who is trying to present bhakti sincerely and then I say let’s just, let’s all be open-minded and go out and share it in whatever ways we can and learn from one another. I learn a lot from you, Prabhu.
You are, you, the way that you explain things is really, really helpful for me. Prabhu, that’s your kind words but, you know, I spend a good amount of time trying to learn how people can learn and one of the critical things that I learned was that, you know, the most important for, part of a class for me as a speaker begins after the class. I give my class but after that when people start what, what spoke to them, what didn’t speak to them, that’s what helps, helps me become a better, better, better sharer of the message in future.
So, what I do might improve the audience understanding, may help the audience grow what I speak during the class but what I hear after the class helps me grow. So, I am trying to learn in whatever way I can. Now, just maybe a couple of questions before, and we have been, so, going back to the earlier point of not quantifying, you know, we discussed about outreach and various ways but at the same level, you know, you have been successful in this, it was, I knew that your podcast was very, very widely appreciated but to be the number one podcast on religion and spirituality within one year, that’s a huge achievement.
now, do you see in your years of yoga outreach, do you focus on or see like a translation of people or a elevation of people from where they are to going closer toward Krishna and maybe not necessarily becoming affiliated members of the movement but raising in their consciousness and becoming closer to Krishna? So, in your sense, when you do this outreach, what is it that gives you fulfillment? What would be your parameter for considering your outreach as successful? Yeah, I guess, I definitely don’t see it in a way that I might have seen it 25 years ago, you know, in terms of a number of what to speak of people living in a temple or, you know, or even initiation or something like that. I have life goals that I would like to see, you know, before I die, in terms of like numbers of people that are practicing Krishna consciousness, say like in a city like New York City. Oh, I do have aspirations that I would, you know, I’d like to be a part of working towards.
But, you know, in general, I think when I see people in developing the same kind of appreciation, you can even say love for the bhakti tradition, for hearing from Bhagavatam, hearing Bhagavad Gita, enthusiasm for these verses, enthusiasm for kirtan, enthusiasm for the association of devotees, enthusiasm for the holy dhams, when I see that someone is catching on thinking, oh, there’s a, this is where the real wealth in life lies. This is what I want to bring more into my life. And when I, and I, and when I hear of them or see them taking up that practice in whatever their own way may be, then I feel very fulfilled.
That’s, to me, that’s a victory, you know. That’s beautiful. Ultimately, everybody has their relationship with Krishna and we can only facilitate them in developing that and that is, actually, if you see, that was the mood of Srila Prabhupada in his Markine Bhagavad Dharma.
This is, make my words understandable to them. So, I find that as a, as a prime example of a Prabhupada who is, who is quite different from what is often portrayed in the mainstream as the person who is, you know, smashing misconceptions and calling out people for their wrong ideas. Here, Prabhupada is simply wanting to be an instrument of the Lord’s compassion to assist people and then how much we will be able to assist, how much the Lord wants us to be an instrument, how far people will go through whatever we contribute to them, that is all in one sense beyond our control.
But, the way Prabhupada puts it, you know, make me dance. So, it’s such a extraordinary example of, you could say, both like complete surrender and complete commitment. You know, you do whatever you want with me, but I’m going to do my part.
So, you know, also, your question, it also reminds me, you know, so much of my attitudes and ideas are shaped by my experience with Radhanath Swami, hearing from him and being able to serve him and serve alongside him. And, my experience has been that anything that I understand that’s true, he understands it much more deeply than I do. And he’s proven that to me again and again and again in so many ways.
so, that’s given me the clue that to try to understand things the way that he understands them, I’ll be able to think more deeply. And, for instance, I’ll share some experiences that I’ve had with him, very similar to, that are relevant to what you’ve just brought up. Once I was walking with him and one other devotee in Central Park in New York City.
And, we walked past a hot dog vendor, right? A person with a little hot dog stand selling hot dogs. But I think the person was probably Bangladeshi. And as we walked by, we all had bead bags in our hands.
And as we walked past him, we’re a little bit of a distance and he saw us. And he, as we were walking past he said, Haribo, Haribo, something like that, you know. And then, as we continued walking, Radhanath Swami asked us a question.
He said, there are so many devotees, initiated devotees, initiated by Sri Prabhupada, that have nothing but criticism for us. You know, they think we’re doing everything wrong and bad and they take a lot of effort to express that publicly and so and so forth. They’re not happy when they see us.
And then, here’s a person that’s selling hot dogs. But when they see us, they have nothing but appreciation for us and what we’re doing. What does this mean? How do we understand this? And the other devotee made a point and said that our conceptions are very important, but our state of heart is still more important.
So, in other words, is it a victory that people more or less sign on the dotted line, I believe Krishna is Bhagavan and that none of the devas are and that it’s and that he exists in Goloka Vrindavan and who, you know, like, conceptions I can embrace, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that I’ve had a change of heart. And really, the conceptions are only meant to assist our change of heart. Some people’s conceptions may not be as clear, but their heart may be more fertile for the seed of bhakti to grow.
I’m not trying to diminish the need for the proper conceptions, that they’re important, but just because we have the proper conceptions doesn’t mean that we’ve had any real change of heart, any real softening of heart. And even our conceptions can foster our own sense of pride, if we’re not careful. You know, this speaks so much to my experience also.
I feel that what we often do, we use the philosophy to create labels, and then we reduce people to those labels. This person is a meat-eater, this person is an alcoholic, this person is a mayavadi, but people are multi dimensional. And this applies for non-devotees, or I don’t even like the word non-devotees, but for a lack of a better word, but this applies for people who are not practicing, and even for devotees, you know, we might apply a label like this devotee is a liberal devotee, and then liberal becomes so big that the part that is a devotee, it becomes like a footnote.
So, yes, somebody might be liberal, and somebody might be conservative, but they are devotees, and people are multi dimensional, and it’s important to find out what is good in people, not what is bad. So, it’s, I feel that sometimes philosophy can, if that what you said about not the change, if you don’t work on the heart enough, then philosophy can become a tool for, a tool that actually, we may not, we may refute philosophical impersonalism, but in terms of psychologically, we might become impersonal. We just remove the heart from the picture, and we operate entirely at the level of the head, and we operate through the filter of those levels, and it’s quite unfortunate and alienating.
It’s alienating, that’s the point, right? And so, as I’m growing older, I’m probably a little older than you, I’m getting up in the years now, and I look back at my years, it’s been 30 some years now, I’ve been trying to practice bhakti well. It’s becoming clear to me through association with certain people, and through their association and their example, again and again, reading the books, Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavatam, what does it look like? What am I meant to look like before I die? How, for my heart, how do I start to be able to fully embrace Radha and Krishna with genuine love? What kind of person do I need to be that I’m not right now? What does it look like? And it gets to that, something towards that more stereotypical looking sadhu, that person that, that everybody that meets them feels, this is someone special, this is a person that understood me like others don’t understand me, because they’re seeing beyond the labels, because they’re actually seeing me as a soul, that they’re not judging me for my shortcomings, that they actually really have a genuine affection for me. That’s what, when we hear about the six Goswamis and how they lived, or other great sadhus, that they had this effect on people, and I know people in my own life that I see they have that effect on people, they generally do.
All my proper conceptions don’t guarantee that I become that person, and actually people may, as you said, feel alienated by me if there is no change of heart. So before I die, and I’m working on that, I want to really have that change of heart. I really want to be that person that sees the soul in everyone, that feels the constant presence of the Paramatma in my own heart, and is seeing that in the heart of every living being, that that depth of presence of the Paramatma’s presence in my mind and heart, that it begins to really purify, elevate my, the way that I speak and the way that I relate to others, and that I move through this world in that way, really being able to move people.
I’ll share something else, like in my years at the had many times where I felt like people are doing things that aren’t right or that are wrong, and I would go to someone like Radhasoami, more or less presenting it and kind of almost asking him to correct it. I see that he doesn’t operate the way that I would normally think a person would just step in and say, hey, this is right and this is wrong and now everyone started doing things right. His way of operating is much more subtle, and I’ve tried to learn from that.
I’m still trying to learn from that. And I see he can see many steps down, he can see many steps down the road, that if I treat a person like this right now, it might temporarily correct a problem, but in the long term, the same investment of heart and so on won’t be there. He kind of has a deeper understanding.
And I’ve also realized that if I’m actually going to serve him, I’m going to not just know what’s right and wrong, but I actually have to become a new person that people will follow. I can’t just say, hey, they have faith in you, get everyone to follow me. The reason that people have faith in him is because of the way that he is as a person, what he embodies as a Vaishnava.
And if I really want to be able to serve him, I need to begin to embody those things myself so that people will have faith in me, and then they’ll more follow what I have to say. And so I’m not able to get the connection between the two points that he doesn’t operate by telling what is right and wrong. And the other point is that I have to become a person like who people will be inspired to follow.
So, I mean, what is the connection between the two? Because like say, say I have more experience than another, than someone else, right? I’ve been practicing bhakti for 30 years, and you’ve been practicing for three, right? You should just do what I say, because it’s right, you know? But certainly Americans, right, with a very sense of independent thought and so on, they’re not going to necessarily follow what I say or have faith in me. It’s actually when they actually feel that I’ve given them something deep in life, you inspired them deeply in life, and that’s going to come because of a sensitivity in the way that I’ve operated with them, and through that sensitivity, them feeling that I care about them, that I’m not just imposing something, but that a deep trust builds based on character. Then that has power to actually move people and to lead, and it’s not merely like a, you know, a question of seniority or a question of knowing more or something like that, but it’s faith that’s built on character, you know? So what you’re saying is that when you see that example, although Maharaj may not tell people, but still do this or don’t do this, but still people follow him out of the inspiration.
You’re saying that you also like to not focus on the right or wrong, telling it explicitly, but by the example or by the inspiration coming from the example, people will say almost organically or osmotically move in that direction. And what I’ve practically found that I can’t get people to do what I want them to do, right? Again, I don’t have that power, I don’t have that influence, and I’ve seen influential Vaishnavas that have that, that it’s not something cheap. It’s not something based on seniority, it’s not something based on learning.
It’s something, especially it’s based on character, you know? And realization, depth of realization that manifests through your character. There’s no easy way. True.
And so this actually was what my last question which I had was that, you know, I saw your introduction and I said that that reflects what you’re doing. It’s quite a, you could say, non-institutional introduction. You say that you are a monk for so long and you have connected to the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition.
So, I have also noticed that people seem to have certain reservations about institutionalized religion. And at the same time they are ready to connect with spiritual people, spiritual teachers or if they’re inspired by someone. So, in some ways we with our standards and other things, we do come off as a heavily institutionalized form of religion.
So, how do you deal with that challenge? And in a sense you said that you don’t assume authority and should be actually by our example inspired. But are there some specific things which you have done to address that issue? I can see that you don’t, like you use, in Wisdom of the Sages, you are using Prabhupada’s books directly, using Prabhupada’s purports. And so, in that sense, you are not concealing things.
But at the same time, how do you deal with that challenge? I guess I could answer that question in two ways. It’s like, how do I explain the institution or the institutional side of it? That’s one question. Okay.
And then, or the other way to look at it is, in general, how do I present myself? You know, which I think we’ve been talking about already quite a bit. That’s the first part is done, yeah. I think the second part is done, maybe the first part.
It’s a good way to divide the question, yeah. Well then, you know, if, and just to recap, in a nutshell, the second part of the question that I just mentioned, like in other words, how do I present myself or how do I present Bhakti, it has a lot to do with those practical life lessons, that wisdom aspect of how I’m going to go from a person confused and disturbed in this material world to a person that can move through this world with an even mind and a peaceful mind and that reflects in my relationships, et cetera, et cetera. That’s all relevant stuff and that’s what we’re presenting.
So then, okay, but aren’t you attached to this institution and what about, are there problems with the institution, should I be involved in the institution, you know, et cetera. The way that I generally present this and I think the way that Raghunath presents it is kind of like, I’m not going to try to paint a super rosy picture of the institution but in a very genuine way I can express how I benefited from the institution and in a very practical way I can explain how I understand that all institutions are going to have problems. So if you’re going to come to me with a laundry list of problems, I’m going to say, yeah, of course, it’s an institution, you know, it’s going to have problems but this is the way that I and my friends, this is the way that we’ve approached the institution and we feel loyal, I guess you could say loyal to the institution or wanting to contribute and help serve the institutions because this institution found me, it explained to me all this knowledge, it provided for me unlimited opportunities, it introduced me to so many fascinating and helpful people, it’s provided everything I need, right, for my spiritual life.
So, yeah, there may be problems around it, I’ll do the best I can to help the institution get over those problems. There may have been some, even to this day there may be people in the institution that I really can’t relate to, that’s okay, I don’t have to closely associate with those people. I can find the people within the institution and benefit from them.
So, that’s kind of the way that I would say myself or Raghunath present our connection. It’s given us everything that we have. If you’re appreciating what we’re giving, it’s all coming through this institution.
So if you appreciate what we’re presenting, then it shouldn’t surprise you that we appreciate the institution that’s presented it all to us. Beautifully put, Prabhu. So, you know, this is, I also struggled with this because in a sense I’m a monk, I’m much more rigidly affiliated with the institution, my status as well as the vision, in people’s vision because I’m directly that way.
But what I was, in a sense, you are saying the same thing that we see the institution as a valuable, even vital source of spirituality. But we don’t equate the institution with the spirituality. So it’s like your… You have such a great ability to… Excellent.
Well, you articulate it so well, please continue. Yeah, so it’s when we start reducing spirituality to the institution, then it is a problem. But if we start, in a sense, reducing spirituality as separated from the institution entirely, then it becomes too ethereal, too abstract and you could say, like you said earlier, too wishy-washy.
So, there has to be some concrete form also, just like the soul needs a body. Although the body is, in so many ways, a source of trouble and distress, but the soul can’t function in the world without the body. Similarly, for spirituality to be effective in the world, it needs some form of embodiment.
So we don’t, like, we often say, Prabhupada said, the skull is my body and Prabhupada also taught, we are not our bodies. So, in that sense, I find that embodiment metaphor. So, for the soul to realize itself as a soul, the body is required.
So, we don’t reduce the soul to the body, but we don’t reject the body for the sake of the soul. Seeing the soul is entirely different from the body. So, I try to present the institution that way, that it is the soul.
So, actually, in one sense, you did the same thing, but I love the phrasing that institution has given me everything of value that I have. And it is so true. There may be many things which have caused us heartburn and which may cause others heartburn, but beyond that, it is everything that we have value, it has come from the institution.
Yeah, you expressed it so well. You know, my one thought that I have often had is that, you know, there is real institutional thought, right? Someone that is like really invested in the institution and maybe another thinker, a deeper thinker might say, you know what? There is a lack of depth to their realization. They have become very deeply attached to this institution, but the spirituality that the institution is meant to embody, I don’t see very deeply in them.
As a matter of had issues and a lot of problems, a lot of superficial stuff. I reject the institution. And then that person is feeling themselves to be a particularly deep thinker, and I think people are prone to seeing that sort of rebellion as being necessarily deep, deeper, you know? And perhaps it may be, or deeper on one level, although even that so-called deeper thinker may lack a lot of the fundamentals to deep spirituality, like surrender, like, you know, being able to appreciate others, letting go of cynicism, and so on.
They may actually be more deeply, these may be serious problems with that thinker. But my observation, you know, there’s a thesis and antithesis, and then there’s ultimately a synthesis, you know? So you have your institutional thought, and then your anti-institutional thought. My observation is that the people that I respect as being the deepest are commonly found on the borders of the institution, right? They’re kind of like on the edges of the institution, in the sense that they’re not, they’re not, their spirituality or their approach hasn’t become bound tightly by a set of rules or etiquettes or limitations.
They can see the good beyond their institution and appreciate it, even gain from it, learn from it. They can recognize the problems within the institution as well as the goodness within the institution. They may be misunderstood within the institution, but they’re actually serving the institution.
Like, that’s like, I feel a lot of the deepest thinkers are kind of like in that space, you know, beautifully detached at the border. In one sense, so you can see the good outside the institution. If you’re too attached to the institution, we don’t see the bad inside the institution and we can’t see the good outside the institution.
Then that leads to like a very polarizing we-they mentality, which is not healthy at all. But as you said, that just rebellion is no sign of spirituality in a sense. So we see all the bad in the institution, but then there is good also.
So that balanced approach, I can see the good outside the institution, I cannot deny the bad inside the institution, but I see the good also over there. And then I focus on the good, I appreciate that and I try to be a part of that and develop that. So it’s a true, in a sense, like I was just going back to your earlier point about people who are at age of 40 and they have certain life experiences, which make them spiritually receptive.
So, you know, I have also seen that those, even those who are dedicated institutional leaders, just by being a leader of institution, they get some life experiences and that also makes them spiritually mature. Because in a sense, realizations come by functioning in the material world. Now, of course, sometimes people, some people may function so rigidly within the framework of the institution that their minds don’t open up.
But I feel that anyway one is actually interacting in the material, with the material world, with a spiritual purpose or at least with a spiritual receptivity. And that interaction brings realizations. So even if for argument’s sake we say the entire institution is mundane, but still making that institution function in the world brings some life experience.
And that life experience enhances one’s spirituality. And what to speak of that institution is not mundane. At least it’s meant for a spiritual purpose.
Then, so I have, as I have traveled across the world and although I clearly acknowledge that our temples are not suited for western outreach, but still I have a lot of respect for all the temple leaders also. Because you know, they are operating under a challenging environment. We may say that we are getting only Indians, but even getting Indians is not easy.
It’s relatively, it’s easier. You are doing a lot of other things with your life. It’s easier than getting westerners.
But you know, the caliber of Indians who come to America, they are probably the best among Indians, most talented, most dedicated. And if that kind of Indians were coming to Indian temples, you would be immensely proud of them. So the fact that even our temples are able to attract thoughtful, intelligent, dedicated, successful Indians, that is not a matter to be in any way minimized and that our leadership is able to attract that, that level of people.
So that is also to be appreciated. It’s just that there is a bigger universe also to reach out and then we need a resource, we need the appropriate forums for that. So, so well expressed.
Thank you. Prabhu, you are, you are, you know, both a reservoir of wisdom and a stimulator of wisdom, I would say. Something is coming out of me, that this is your association is so stimulating.
So should I try to summarize, Prabhu? We went over a lot of distance, but… Yes, please. So, I think we started with discussing your journey. So how the little, lesser known, was it hard rock? Was it called the counterculture, the smaller expression? Hardcore.
Hardcore punk rock. Hardcore punk rock counterculture in the 80s and how that in one sense prepared you with a level of unconcern for societal rejection when you eventually started practicing bhakti, which at that time was quite radical to do and that the fact that Prabhupada’s books presented wisdom in a way in which tough people were able to not only understand but present. So that says that Prabhupada’s style has its resonance with people, at least people of a particular demography.
That’s how it’s worked. So we talked about how people who were rebellious, Prabhupada’s presentation actually gave them a philosophical foundation and spiritual direction for the rebellion. That happened in the 60s and that happened to some extent in the 80s also.
And then I especially appreciated your analysis of how when at that time you came to Krishna consciousness or you met Tamal Krishna Maharaj and it was just that you felt that this is the path for me. This is what I want to do. So and then we talked more about the 2000 when you started entering into the yoga.
So that culture of critical questioning, critical thinking which you learned from Maharaj, I think that was a special legacy which prepared you for, you know, evaluating different strategies for outreach and then seeing what works. And then the vision of reaching out to people by providing multiple forums. This temple is just one forum.
There is yoga. There are other things available that has, you know, through interaction with Maharaj that started off. And then thing in the yoga scene, you were able to connect with a niche where there were people who were serious and thoughtful.
And so although it was, it may not be the mainstream culture, but it was, it was a part which was like with thoughtful, influential people. And what you said about, you know, what in our presentation is relevant for people today. So to understand that, we look at how society has changed.
And one of the biggest influencers is, say, three decades of computing and one and a half decades of social media. So it has decreased people’s attention spans and their capacity to even read serious philosophical books. And that’s why having, say, reading groups, which provide people not only the impetus for reading, but also a safe forum for asking questions without being judged, which may not happen in our temples, that they are so vital.
And one difference is that the reading group, so the temple classes are meant more for education for people who have other forums for connection. But the reading groups are like, they are themselves forums for connection for people. And that’s why the format has to be significantly different.
Then you talked about avoiding condescension, that what one of the reasons for the success of your Wisdom on Sages podcast is not that, you know, we are enlightened and we are going to enlighten you, rather, we are all facing the same life challenges, but we have got some resources which from our practice and training and education and bhakti, and we would like to share that. So that horizontal approach as compared to the vertical approach has a far greater reach and that horizontal, in one sense, the vertical approach worked with Srila Prabhupada because the people who came to him, they were from an authoritarian background or authority centered society, but they rejected that authority and they could replace, eventually when they found a trustworthy authority, they could replace their rejected authority with Prabhupada. But in today’s world, people have no experience of following any authority, so a vertical approach is more likely to alienate than attract.
And then you talked about how in the association of devotees with sincerity and patience, we gradually learn what clicks with people, what we can share with people. And you mentioned about the Bhagavatam, there are so many practical takeaways in the Bhagavatam and separating the esoteric and the exoteric or the practical and knowing what to present when. So the way you explained Govardhan Leela, not just in terms of what is literally depicted in the picture, but by framing a universe of love and showing that as a extraordinary example of reciprocation of love.
Now that contextualization is vital. So we talked about two aspects, one is personal connection with people and then rational explanation of the philosophy. So when we do those two things, then there is a lot of minds and hearts can be opened.
And then we also talked about the aspect of institution towards the end, that how you present yourself as an individual who has experiences and you are sharing those experiences. But as an institution, institution has given us everything of value, but we don’t paint a rosy picture of the institution as being everything good. Like every institution will have some bad, some things bad.
But we look at the good and the most effective leaders are those who are connected, you can say committed to the institution, but they are not constrained by the institution. They are not limited by it. They can appreciate the good outside also.
And we did not discuss so much specifically about yoga in our podcast, but it was the broad audience which is the contemporary audience in which the yoga crowd is a big crowd. So although you didn’t teach yoga, but the attempt to learn yoga put you in an environment where you actually connected with people at a ground level and that provided you the experience and the wisdom to see how we could connect with people. We also discussed about quantifying success, that you know, more than having some like institutional goals of where people need to come to.
Everybody has a relationship with Krishna and if their life, they are growing towards Krishna, then that is a valuable contribution we are doing. And then in the between we discussed about the history of how our movement has evolved and not evolved in certain ways, but we don’t have to say that this is the only way to reach out to western audiences, but instead of fighting about who is presenting Krishna consciousness, how, if we just present according to our realization and if something works, we learn from it and we grow. So that internecine fighting, if it is avoided, anybody who is making the endeavor to reach out itself needs to be appreciated.
Sometimes we may reduce people and label people like you talked about the experience of a hot dog vendor appreciating a devotee and some devotees not appreciating devotees. So the problem is that we might label and reduce people. philosophical conceptions and philosophical correctness of the conception is important, but ultimately they are tools for the change of heart.
So in a sense that approach that we also in the start discussed how the people are today, they are not so interested in the alternative way of living, but they are interested in how we can add value in their lives. So you present practical lessons from scripture, you present the practical value of institution, you have the practical connections with people, help them face their life challenges, and then they become more receptive to the esoteric, the spiritual, and then they grow organically. So any points you want to add or anything? No, that was very thorough.
Well done. Thank you very much. It was a very stimulating discussion.
Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your heart. Hare Krishna.
I benefit so much from your teachings. So thank you. It’s been an honor to be on your podcast.
It’s been an honor for me. Thank you. Thank you so much.