The Monk’s Podcast 94 with Lokanath Maharaja – Gaudiya bhakti, Maharashtrian bhakti, universal bhakti

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna, Maharaj. Dandavat Pranam.
Thank you very much for joining the MONGS podcast today. It’s been a great aspiration for me to have your august presence here and I’m very grateful that you could spare the time today. You’re welcome.
Thank you, Maharaj. So, Maharaj, on this podcast, we usually try to discuss topics which go deeper into our issues relevant to devotees and aspiring devotees. So, today, since my first encounter with you, I was born and brought up in Maharashtra and almost all the devotees I met.
We have many encounters in the past. Yes, Maharaj. So, I met many devotees when I was introduced to Krishna consciousness, but you were the first ISKCON devotee leader who was not only from a Maharashtrian background, but you also brought your Maharashtrian bhakti into your Krishna consciousness.
So, I grew up in a devotional, more religious than devotional family, but we used to have manache shlok and other regional bhakti songs and bhakti verses being recited. So, since that time, I was fascinated about how Gaudiya bhakti and Maharashtrian bhakti, how they can come together and so broadly, what aspects of bhakti are universal, what are regional. So, I thought we could talk about that topic today.
Okay. Yes, Maharaj. Thank you.
Thank you. So, firstly, Maharaj, when you were among the, I think the first, among the first few Indian disciples of Srila Prabhupada or first few Indians who really became dedicated followers of Srila Prabhupada, at that time, mostly it was people became life members, but not really disciples. So, but now we see that a lot, in fact, India is the powerhouse of the Krishna consciousness movement.
There are more Indians, more Indian devotees, more temples, more books distributed. So, what do you feel is the reason for this evolution? Why were, say, Indians more reluctant at that time and now they may be more open, more receptive? During Prabhupada days, as you rightly pointed out, we did have lots of hundreds or maybe several thousand life patron members, but talking of being a follower and being a disciple, there were maybe only a dozen or so step forward to become devotees and followers of Krishna consciousness movement. Well, I’m talking about Mumbai, where I was, I had joined, and that is where I was practicing my Krishna consciousness.
And probably I was, well, could be a college student. I joined ISKCON. Oh, amazing.
We are all inheriting, those of us who are college preachers, we have all inherited your legacy, and now the Prerana festival in Mumbai and other places and thousands are, yeah, so those days they were saying, when I become old, I will take to Krishna consciousness, but that is no more. The congregation is, we have thousands of followers, disciples of Krishna Maharaj, rather not Swami Maharaj, some of them are my disciples. So, well, Jayapadaka Maharaj also a lot.
Jayapadaka Maharaj, and of course, we are talking about Maharashtra and Mumbai, but as a whole. India. ISKCON world in India, also there.
Oh, well, I think Indians were still busy doing imitation of the West, and they are so much faith in science and technology, but gradually they were seeing that the science and technology was not keeping the promises, not delivering the goods, and it takes some time, right? Action and then for a reaction, it takes some time, so people were enjoying spirit, then soon their troubles were there, the global warming and ecological disasters, and the pandemic is here, and this and that, and more violence and more divorces and whatnot, but I, this is my observation that Indians have taken, they took note of this, and they were, I think they were trying some alternative, alternative to Krishna consciousness or religion and devotion, but that did not work out, wasn’t working out, so prevention is better than cure, so some kicked that out, they discarded that, and they are back on the tracker, back on the, yeah, on practicing culture and their religion. I think this is, this is one observation why, yeah, why they are turning up in big numbers from congregation, they are joining and youths are coming forward also to become full-time devotees and propagators of Krishna consciousness. Yes, Maharaj.
To some extent, from whatever I have read, it did seem that the life members who came, they were, thank you for that answer, the life members also were more into like a cultural national pride, you know, these Americans and Europeans have become our, are following our culture, so it was more of curiosity and pride rather than a personal involvement and commitment, but as you rightly said, as the promises of materialism and technology didn’t fulfill, and I think then, after a certain level of prosperity also came, and then people started looking more for spirituality, and then we were a viable option. Yeah, I also would say that, you know, Prabhupada pitched to the Americans, Westerners, and in fact, while I was in college in early 70s, and Prabhupada came with a bunch of his followers from America and Europe and other parts of the world, and they were advertising the Hare Krishna festival in Bombay as the American sadhus are here, the European sadhus are here, so, you know, Prabhupada, you know, he had envisioned this, and he wanted to, okay, you want to follow Westerners, Americans, then follow those Americans, those who have become the Hare Krishna devotees, are devotees of Krishna. You are trying to follow their culture and Western culture, and their Westerners faith in technology and science, but you see, look at the Westerners, they are kicking that out, discarding that, and they’re becoming devotees, you fool Indians, wake up, go back to your culture, and Krishna consciousness of Prabhupada was kind of angling those Americans, look, look, it’s American, this is, so they became, they did not become happy, they became, well, hippies, yeah, the progress, so-called progress of the materialism, and being a modern, and so they were not, they were not happy, so you also would not be happy if you follow in their footsteps.
So, I think this was an eye-opener for Indians. Yes, Maharaj. And I think people started thinking twice.
Yes, Maharaj, that’s true. As compared to, say, our movement in the 1970s, and I said, now we have a 2020 almost. So, do you see ISKCON in India has become, say, more Indianized in some ways, and that’s why Indians, say, feel more at home? Well, there were days, Angrez Kamandir in Vrindavan, or, you know, and the Western followers are, see, these are CIs, these are CIs, be aware, stay away from them.
So, that was kind of propaganda, or they came to do business in the past, and gradually they conquered India, they made us slaves, and now they are coming in guise of sadhus, where they have the same intention that they had previously. So, that was there. Yes, Maharaj.
You know, I have heard about this accusation of devotees being CIA. So, was there somebody particularly doing this, or it was just because of the political tension between India and Pakistan, and America siding, supporting Pakistan? Was it because of that, just geopolitics, or was it, say, some people were… Well, I can quickly say that they just did not want to practice their own culture and religion, and so this was their excuse. Oh, okay.
They did not follow the American sadhus, or European sadhus, they were not following Indian sadhus, or Indian saints and shastras. Now, Americans were coming in, but they were not into practicing, so I think this was some propaganda, so that they don’t have to follow. That makes sense.
So, Maharaj, when you were introduced to Krishna Consciousness, now you came from a Maharashtrian bhakti background. So, what was your experience? Did you find any significant differences or similarities? What was it that maybe attracted you? Did anything cause you hesitation when you were introduced to Krishna Consciousness? No. I mean, I was looking for Krishna Consciousness, but my soul was very much longing, and when I came in contact with these Hare Krishna sadhus, European sadhus, as they were being advertised during that Hare Krishna festival, and of course, Shrila Prabhupada also was there.
I found what I was looking for, and I did not think twice about them being different, or whether or not to go for it. I was just right in the middle, and of course, I was doing bhajans or kirtans, or listening to bhajans, kirtans, paramahangas during my childhood days, and I was into some bhajan, kirtan. So, when I heard and saw devotees of the Hare Krishna, devotees across Maidan, their church gate, on the stage, chanting, and dancing, and drumming, and playing hand cymbals, this is what Prabhupada says, especially talks about the Varkaris in Maharashtra.
They are kirtan mandalis, and Gaudiya kirtan mandal is very much similar, he says. They also use Mridang and Kartal, and that is also our instrument. They also dance and chant while chanting, and we do the same thing.
So, I did not, I thought they were high-field at home, and I took that, I took away from that festival, this chanting and dancing, and then soon, where I was residing in Dadar, in my room with my villagers, they were my roommates, so whenever they were all out, and I would lock the doors, close the windows, kirtans, and imitated those Hare Krishna, American, Western sadhus, and chant and dance myself. So, I found what I was looking for. So, I was very happy.
Amazing. Yes, Maharaj. That’s remarkable.
So, in one sense, your spiritual search enabled you to transcend whatever cultural differences might have been there, and you focus on the cultural similarities. You know, I have some, I had some friends who, when I was studying engineering, so I got introduced to Bhakti in third year of my engineering, that was about 25 years ago, and then there were some friends also who were from a Varkari background, they were also studying engineering. I used to invite them for a program.
They said that this is already a part of our culture, we will follow our culture, we don’t want to follow this. But then what I noticed is that they would actually not really follow their culture also. So, sometimes the, sometimes the regional cultural conceptions can come in the way of people taking up to Bhakti.
So, do you feel that in Maharashtra, we are seen as, say, like a Bengali Bhakti tradition, or because of our temples and our kirtans, we are now more and more may accepted as a, as a viable Bhakti tradition to be practiced here also? I think that Bhakti is, is a Bhakti. Bhakti is activity or a symptom of a soul’s expression of soul’s devotion, that is, that is Bhakti. In Maharashtra, there is a saying, the sugarcane may be, you know, straight one or bent one or like that one.
The rest, the juice inside that sugarcane, regardless of the shape and size, and it is the same. I mean, we do as we are born and brought up in different geographical locations and different cultural prevailing backgrounds. Well, we do pick up those, and that also becomes a designation or imposition on the soul’s pure devotion and Bhakti and on conditioning like that.
So, you know, in Maharashtra, they would say, you should be Bhakta like a Pundalik. Yeah, he was taking care of his family and serving parents. You know, he made God to wait.
So, in Maharashtra, that kind of cultural language is commonly spoken by all the parents. Well, that’s just not the original culture that is practiced in spiritual world or which Govinda Mahaprabhu appeared to propagate the right culture, the eternal culture, and devotional and activities down to the earth, right here on this planet. And fortunately, Mahaprabhu came to Kuala Lumpur and Pandharpur and Nasik and he passed through Satara and he chanted and danced and, well, full devotion, full devotion, dedication.
So, I think, by his example, Mahaprabhu himself has terms. He became Mahatma or Sant, Acharya. Bhagavan, Sri Krishna Chaitanya becomes Sant, Mahatma, Acharya, Gaur Bhakta, and he practices Krishna consciousness.
So, I think that’s a glaring example. And then our tradition, Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, our Acharyas, that is what they are practicing and propagating and that was delivered by Srila Prabhupada. And eventually, it is expectation and prediction of faith in Mahaprabhu that this would become a global culture, global phenomenon, practices of Krishna consciousness.
So, transcending the regional cultures. So, this is a Maharashtrian culture, this is a Bengali culture, this is North Indian culture, this is South American culture, this is African culture, even religious culture. This is going to be transcending.
That’s why we, a lot of time we say, Krishna consciousness is not one more religion. There are this religion and that religion, Hindu and this and that. So, the Krishna consciousness movement cannot be just added to that list.
And this is another religion, another power. So, this is beyond and transcendental. We are not part of that duality.
We are above and beyond and matchless and not to be compared anything that exists around here. It’s profound. You know what you said, Maharaj, just now Bhaktivinoda Thakur talks about this also in Chaitanya Shikshamrut that Bhakti is a universal emotion and then he says that there are regional expressions.
He says according to culture, language, place, time, the saints have taught it in different ways. And so what you are saying is that the universal aspect of Bhakti will appeal to everyone irrespective of whatever the cultural background is. And if somebody holds on to their cultural background too much, then that is like a designation which is basically covering the soul and that may obstruct them on their spiritual journey.
Like, you know, I don’t know, yes, another question just to talk a little more about what we are talking is that in 1971, I remember some Indian, Hindu Indian talking to American sadhu, Hare Krishna devotee. He said, why did you, you were Christian, why did you change your religion and now you have become Hindu? And the devotee gave a pretty smart answer. He said, no, no, no, I haven’t become Hindu.
In fact, he said, I have become a better Christian. And he explained saying, you know, the Bible says, love thy Lord with all thy heart, all thy strength. But I did not do that before.
I did not put my heart into what I was doing for Jesus or for for Jehovah. But now I’m doing that. In Krishna consciousness, that is what I’m doing.
That is what I’m trying to do. With all my heart, all my strength, I’m loving and serving my Lord. And unfortunately, I did not even know who that Lord was before.
But now, now I know that Lord is Krishna or Rama. He has many names. Okay, Allah also, why not? And I’m so, not that I have been converted and I become now another, belonging to another religion.
But so, I think this is the one who becomes Krishna conscious, he becomes better, better, you know, better Hindu, better Christian, better Muslim, better this or that. This is the best about all other ordinary stuff. Yes, Maharaj.
That’s a very good example. So, if we can say, if somebody can say that I’ll become a better Christian by practicing Krishna Bhakti, then certainly we can say that they will become, if they are a Varkari, they will actually become a better Varkari by practicing Krishna consciousness. They will become a better follower of Tukaram Maharaj also.
So, you mentioned how Krishna consciousness cannot be added to the list of the various world religions. So, now people will see us like that. They will see us as belonging to a particular religious group or a particular organization.
So, is it primarily by our philosophical explanations that we help them see that we are not like just another cultural group or another religious group because practically speaking we dress in a particular way, we chant particular mantras. So, the aspect of ethnic or regional expressions of Bhakti is there with us also. Well, this could also be listed as this kind of dress or this kind of color of the dress or this kind of tilak or this kind of whatever.
But the Bhakti is beyond that one also. These are Gaun Lakshan. These are secondary symptoms of religion or religious person or God conscious person or the architect and design of place of your worship.
Mosque is this way and the church is that way and you know temple is that way. These are external things and the world pays attention to more differences or externalities. But we should be going deeper within beyond these external forms and looks and colors and the caste and nationality and even gender and so Krishna consciousness is transcendental to all that.
Well, by seeing these things they could recognize, acknowledge this as superior or transcendental or beyond all that exists in different name of different religions. Yes, Maharaj. So, Maharaj, you have been apart from preaching all over the world, you have also focused a lot on Maharashtra.
So, over the say five decades or so where our movement has been here, what do you see as the major achievements or landmarks in our outreach in Maharashtra? Well, I mean, the Maharashtra early days or Shilpa Upadhyaya days, we were limited to Mumbai only. Yes. Juhu, Hare Krishna land only and then we just started, I remember in 1975, Shilpa Upadhyaya had sent me and Bhagwat Das and others to Pune to preach.
Of course, I think of Maharashtra, but there are a few places, there was Vrindavan. Vrindavan land, Bhoomi Puja and Juhu Bhoomi Puja and Mayapur Bhoomi Puja took place within a span of just a few months in 1972. So, those were the temples in India for half a dozen Upadhyaya days and in Maharashtra, it was just basically Mumbai.
So, from then till now, all that you see, all the manifestations, now we have maybe 50 or so big and small locations where consciousness is practiced. We have temples everywhere and okay. I mean, I was one Maharashtrian to join in the beginning and then I remember Prabhupada saying to me one day, we just, I sat in Prabhupada’s room, Prabhupada saying, we want more men like you.
And now I could say, there are so many hundreds and hundreds of devotees, men, women also and in Maharashtra practicing and propagating Krishna consciousness. So, these are all landmarks and the book distribution, number of Bhagavad Gita’s that we have distributed in Maharashtra has a big number. I think amongst the Indian language, Bhagavad Gita as it is an Indian language, I think Marathi is ranking, you know, if not the highest.
Oh, okay. And you know, when I distributed 400,000 Bhagavad Gita’s just last month and previous year did the same thing. I’ve been distributing books like crazy all over.
So, all these dimensions have been added and there are so many festivals, Yatra’s held and now we are part of the Maharashtra Bindi Varkaris. We joined them and we are there. So, we are everywhere.
When there’s a Nasik Kumbha Mela, there’s a Hare Krishna camp is there and we have big names and in Mumbai we have many temples. Yes, Maharaj. We used to have just Juhu and then Kaupati and Mira Road and now Kargar is a huge thing and then we have a Govardhanika village.
Yes, Maharaj. That’s a big, big thing and we have Pandharpur here. Yes, Maharaj.
I was going to ask Pandharpur. I think this is among the few temples that where there is already a Holi Dham in Maharashtra and we have also quite a significant presence there. So, now did we have some, like in Jagannath Puri there are some anxieties among the local devotees about ISKCON’s presence there.
So, was there some anxiety over there or we were naturally accepted and now we are seen as a part of the Pandharpur Holi landscape? Yeah, I mean our neighbor for some land dispute and encroachment, there is some harassment. Harassment is there. Yeah, that is otherwise you know we are we are accepted, embraced and we are integral part of okay when you know when our Padi Yatra from Mayapur to, no, from Dwarka to Mayapur Padi Yatra passing through Maharashtra and coming to Pandharpur.
This is of course all the time, but we were greeted, our party was greeted by the officials of Rukmini, Ritual Rukmini temple authorities and pandas and oh okay and not only that we we had devotees from some 20 different nations walking with us and we all had a fortunate to do Mahabhishek of Vitthal, Pandharam. Oh, amazing. Yeah, so we had some Africans and Americans and Germans and they’re all bathing and you know massaging the body of Vitthal.
And you cannot read it, you cannot even look at the temple with a side long glass, you will be immediately caught and sent away. But here that’s not the case. So this happens every year or this happened in a particular year you’re saying? I’m just saying it happened one time.
Okay. In 84. But otherwise also, you know, otherwise also whenever our devotees come from distant countries, we do bring them to the Kakad Aarati, Mangal Aarati of Pandharam, Vitthal and there is something very special about the Abhishek and Aarati, especially Abhishek, I would say.
There’s no curtain. You get to see Lord being opened up and then for Aarati, undress him and bathe him. So we always have devotees, whether Jaipataka Maharaj or Giriraj Maharaj or so many Maharajas, they always come here, our devotees from all over the world.
And so they get to sit just a few feet away from the deity and watch and have Darshan to their heart’s content and there is no discrimination of that sort in Pandharpur. That’s amazing. So Maharaj when you said 84 itself, that means we got acceptance very early.
So our movement was not even that big in 84. Now we are much bigger. So I presume your presence must also have played a significant role, because you are a Maharashtrian and then you acted like a segue, like a bridge between the movement and the local Bhakti leaders or Bhakti teachers over the Bhakti culture over there.
Very early. Thank you. So that means you really literally are a pioneer of Krishna consciousness in Pandharpur.
So Maharaj, were you the first Maharashtrian to be introduced to Krishna consciousness? Say that again. Were you the first Maharashtrian to be introduced to Krishna consciousness? Well, 71 was March, April was the first festival held, Hare Krishna festival and of course talking about being introduced, there were thousands in attendance. I mean, somebody who committed.
There was one speck of dust or part of air. No, I meant. Of course, Radhanath Maharaj also was the audience there.
No, I meant that. Not from Maharashtra, from America. But I think I started practicing Krishna consciousness.
Yes. So both from the historical perspective, you are the first Maharashtrian to become a follower of, committed follower of Prabhupada and then your pioneered Bhakti also in Maharashtra. That’s amazing.
Well, Prabhupada asked me to do that. I received a letter from Srila Prabhupada in 77. I already had been preaching in Maharashtra.
I had been going to my home village also once a year with Hare Krishna Devotees and the whole festival. So after one such festival in 77 and also I was doing traveling and preaching book distribution all over Maharashtra, all over India, all over Maharashtra. Then Prabhupada wrote to me in 77 saying, whole of India and specifically your Maharashtra are enthused with Krishna.
Oh. Now you have to revive their Krishna consciousness. This is Tukaram’s country.
But now they are becoming bad politicians. Bad politicians. Okay.
So revive them by the process of the Sankirtan movement. Oh. And in the same letter towards the end Prabhupada wrote saying, organize very solidly and thus increase the number of books distributed, the numbers of devotees made and develop centers of Krishna consciousness everywhere.
Oh. So this is a direct instruction of Srila Prabhupada. Yes.
So in a sense, Maharashtra is like a Guru Datta Desh. What Prabhupada gave you. Yes.
That is one of the Guru Datta Deshas. Yeah. Yes.
One of the, of course. Yes. So I also remember that in the Kumbh Mela now you have also been recognized as one of the sadhus by the traditional akhadas.
Can you or a traditional authority? They call Mahants. So can you elaborate on that a little bit? Or that is, I think, a special honor for our movement. And that’s also recognition of how people are recognizing Srila Prabhupada’s followers as authentic.
Yeah. So it took a long time. So Srila Prabhupada attended 71th Kumbh Mela with his followers.
And so he did also in 77. In 77th Kumbh Mela, I was also there. Then we had been participating in Kumbh Mela.
ISKCON was participating practically every Kumbh Mela. But because we, again, that some understanding, misunderstanding was still prevailing. These are the Western movement and American sadhus and Mlecchas are part of, I know that their members are Mlecchas or Shudras or Yavanahas.
They cannot be integrated into the Kumbh Mela team or give them honor of joining that procession that goes to take bath at Triveni Sangam and other places, Shipra in Ujjain and Godavari in Nasik and Ganga in Haridwar. So it took quite some time for convincing them or clearing their misunderstanding. And this is not a Western organization, Western sadhus predominance.
This is like that. So gradually, after many years in Ujjain Kumbh Mela, some dozen years ago, our Dina Bandhu, in fact, our American sadhu, Dina Bandhu and Sarovam Prabhu, two of them were working on this Kumbh Mela authorities, big Mahants, the Dal Committee. They are the ones, they recognize different parties and put them into the fold and acknowledge them as official institutions, Mahants.
So that finally happened and then I was asked by our leadership in India to pick up that role and so this is how I became part of the Kumbh Mela. That’s amazing. So when Prabhupada was there at that time, even he was not recognized as a Mahant at that time.
He was a prominent presence in the Kumbh Mela from what I read. Lots of people came and saw him and were impressed. That’s what anybody could do.
Then there’s a conversation on the Snaan days, Matra Sankranti Snaan and this Snaan and that Snaan. Okay. Now there is a Grand Trunk Road or a path leading to the Bathing Heart and there only those who are authorized, recognized as officially recognized as Mahants, they are allowed to.
Then there are thousands or millions watching and taking Darshan from Agha Babas and many many parts. So Prabhupada was there but I think that was not even tried to become Mahant or so these developments took after Prabhupada. Yes, so you were, so the Mahant specifically appointed you as a representative of ISKCON or you as an individual? How does this? I am representing ISKCON, International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
Oh, okay. Yes, Maharaj, amazing and going back to your earlier point about how even our non-Indian devotees are allowed intimate Darshan and massaging of Lord Vitthal. So is this like inclusiveness characteristic of most temples in Maharashtra and is Jagannath temple more exception or it’s more of a the norm is openness or it varies very much from temple to temple? I think in general and as we walk from Dwarka through Gujarat, through Maharashtra, through Karnataka and then to Kerala and Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa and Jagannath, Mayapur, I think Jagannath was the worst experience.
That’s where the opposition and some tradition, you know, from Chaitanya Mahaprabhu days. That’s why even Namachari Haridas Thakur did not enter and he was not, yeah, he stayed away and others also stayed away. So I think in general, we were welcomed.
I mean, even in South India, many temples have signed. Only Hindus are allowed. But even there, the Hare Krishna Padyatris were allowed to enter.
The Western Hare Krishna Padyatris are allowed to enter. I think in the Mahakunti in Dakur, in Gujarat, the Dakur Dham, there also, at least those days, they were not allowing Westerners. I remember one time we had one of my godbrother Dinanath.
He’s from America, was black bodied. Yeah. So we were, yeah, so there were several of us and we asked him to be in the middle.
And we had told him if anyone tries to talk to you, we’ll tell them he’s observing Mount, he’s observing silence. So, you know, that worked. He was able to take darshan.
If he was a white body, probably Dakur temple, they would not have allowed darshan. So in general, we were welcomed, most of the temples. But I would say in Pandharpur, we had a very special and very intimate darshan and association and service of the deities.
Now, I’m sure Shri Sampradaya temples, they would not have allowed us to come and bathe their deities. Darshan you could could pay. There was no question of us and what we think of Westerners doing darshan.
But here, Pandharpur, we had privilege. So, is it also because, say, the Maharashtrian bhakti was, the bhakti tradition itself was rejuvenated by many saints who were most of them from what is conventionally called consider the lower castes. So because of that, the discrimination is much lesser in Maharashtra.
Yes, whatever the historical reasons are there, but that would be reasons. Yes, Narayansh. Famous devotees of Pandharan, some were farmers or some were cobblers, some were white bikers, or from all castes and creeds.
But Vaishnavism, to consider all this is just opening the gate of the health to think that this person, you know, belongs to such a jati or caste. And our guru is just ordinary. It’s another human being and the deity is just a stone.
So I think here the Lord and Lord’s devotees are kind and then everyone is welcome. And we see a photograph of Pandharan Gupta. He’s carrying all sorts of devotees coming from all different backgrounds and so-called castes and varnas and ashrams and some he’s, you know, they are on his shoulder.
And someone is holding his hand and bringing them along or they’re sitting all over him and carrying them. So that’s Lord. That is Lord wherever he is in Jagannath Puri or South India or Pandharpur, that’s the Lord.
That’s a very intimate image of the Lord. It’s almost like Krishna in Vrindavan where he carries the Gopas. We don’t have such an intimate image of, say, for example, Lord Ram carrying his associates or Lord Vishnu, definitely not.
So can you talk something about the similarities between, say, Lord Vitthal and Lord Krishna, the way he is worshipped or the way he has been conceived by the saints? Well, officially, you could say Lord Vitthal is Dwarakadheesh. Yes. But here, you know, he did his Leelas like Lord of Vrindavan.
Oh, while he’s, when they begin his Abhishek, the Lord, where is my butter? Where is my butter? And they start bathing him and then they bring big, the ball of butter and they feed him. So which Lord? The Lord who eats butter is Krishna. Krishna in Vrindavan specifically.
I’m sure Ram also eats some butter and that’s the same way everyone eats. Everyone eats and loves butter like Krishna does. So for Pandurang, Vitthal in Pandurpur, he has that very special affection for butter.
So that’s the one proof. And there’s a Radharani, you know, so this is what we have. We are bringing into the notice of Varkaris and Maharashtrians that, okay, I mean, this is, there’s a Pandurpur and there’s also Goparpur.
The Goparpur is Vrindavan. And if you visit Goparpur, you will see like visiting Gokuls in Vrindavan. All Darshans are like that, pastimes are like that.
There’s also Vishnupad near Goparpur, right on the bank of Chandrabhaga. And you see the footprints of Shri Krishna and footprints of the calf and the cow and the flute. So that is Krishna.
There’s very much Krishna. And this, I have done some research with the help of or in consultation of scholars and going through libraries and scriptures that what they call Goparpur Goparpur is on the top of a hill and that hill is Govardhan. Oh, amazing.
And there’s a river flowing and there’s a Jamuna. There’s a Chandrabhaga and Jamuna confluence here. So, and so, along with in Rukmini, this is Vittal Rukmini temple.
There’s a Rukmini, there’s a Satyabhama, there’s a Razarani also. Oh, and next to Rukmini, you take Darshan of Rukmini, come outside and next Darshan is Razarani Darshan. Vittal is Lord of Radha, that is Lord of Vrindavan, Vrajendra Anandam, Shri Krishna.
So, he is the Arkadish, he is also Vrajabhasi, Vrindavan, Vahasi, Krishna. Hmm. And so, we want to bring this to the notice of the Varkaris and everywhere, everyone.
The Prabhupada wanted me to preach in Maharashtra also and revive their Krishna consciousness by the process of Sankirtan. So, I thought of writing a book. Prabhupada was asked to preach in the West, so Prabhupada thought I better have some books translated in English language, then I could preach.
So, I also did something similar. Upon arrival here in Pandharpur, we have come up with this book called Bhuvai Kunt. And we are trying to share these mysteries of Pandharpur and unfold the different dimensions.
Yes, Maharaj. So, that’s our role. Yes, it’s a beautiful book and we will put in the information about the book in this podcast also when we’re talking about it.
So, Maharaj, going back to your point about you doing research to show how Krishna is very much there in Pandharpur also. So, it’s almost like, say, Lord Chaitanya is a Channa avatar of Krishna and the devotees actually highlight how is the Lord. So, it’s almost like Lord Krishna is or Krishna’s Vrindavan or Krishna, the mood of Krishna and Vrindavan, it is there in Pandharpur.
But now in the Gaudiya tradition, you are bringing it to bringing it to light. I’m not the first one. I mean, the previous saints, especially Bukhara and others also.
Many, many of their ahangas, the compositions, they talk of it all as Sri Krishna. Yes, of course. In general, within the poetic compositions, the compositions are quite syncretic.
Like even when Balaji is being worshipped, he’ll be referred to as Ram and Krishna. So, I think poetic compositions have always been syncretic. Different manifestations are worshipped together.
But specifically, the local places as being associated with particular forms of the Lord, I think that is something which is maybe not so highlighted. Yes, Maharaj. Thank you.
Thank you. As Krishna has appeared in Gokul and everyone is so happy in Vrindavan. Like that.
So, you name it. There are thousands of. Yes, Maharaj.
Yes, Maharaj. The talk of. We tell less as Dwarkadheesh, more as Sri Krishna of Vrindavan.
Gokul. Yeah. And Gopis and Gopas and like that.
Yes, Maharaj. In general, with respect to the bhakti songs and Krishna in Vrindavan is much more glorified and sung about than Krishna in Dwarka. I don’t think it’s not just in Pandharpur, but overall, even if you see the Gaudiya Vaishnava songs or in general the bhakti songs, they are much more about Krishna in Vrindavan than Krishna in Dwarka.
Yeah. So, our Gaudiya Vaishnava, our emphasis is on Prajendranandam. And as you said, that is also observed in many, many Krishna temples or Dwarkadheesh temples or Vishnu temples also.
You’ll sing glories of Krishna. There is even Ram or Vishnu or. Yes.
Or Guruvayur, Appa or Guruvayur or. Yes, Maharaj. So, now you mentioned about being welcomed by the, Padiyatra being welcomed across the country in many places.
So, in general, in the heartland of Maharashtra, how much of the bhakti culture which was there from the time of Tukaram Maharaj and before, after, how much is it still there? Is it getting lost? And how is the Krishna conscious movement helping in revive that? More in the rural parts, we have centers prominently in the cities, but in the more internal parts of the country or the state, how is it, Maharaj, overall? Well, age of Kali is here and getting more active and everyone is being engulfed, including Maharashtrians in it. And as a result, you know, the irreligion. Bhagavatam said, you Kali could reside in four places.
And that is where there is Yutam, Panam, Sona, Striya. Where there is Yutam, where there is gambling, that is for you. Oh, Kali, this is your residence.
Where there is drinking, intoxication, where there is illicit sex, Striya. And where there is, what is the remaining? Meat-eating. Meat-eating, yeah.
Yeah. So these things are practicing the Western culture and part of that culture is the mall culture and shopping and eating and five-star hotel culture and this and that. So people are indulging, Maharashtrians are indulging in these things.
There used to be Zunka Bhakar at the time of the Param. Now it’s a Mutton Bhakri. That’s how they advertise.
Not only Bhakri, Bhakri is a Maharashtrian bread or chapati. Yes. They used to eat that with Bhaji Bhakri or Zunka Bhakri, vegetable and that Bhakri, but now Mutton Bhakri.
I was not far from Kolhapur. I was on the way to Belgaum and there’s a festival called Mutton, Mutton also. Mutton also.
Oh my God. The festival. And like that, you know, all these things are, they go on and the union worker is, they have this mala around their neck.
When they want to eat meat or eggs, they take off and put that all away. They eat and then mala back again. Oh God.
Oh, this is very common. Chewing tobacco or drinking. This also happens on wearing bindis and this and that.
Of course, the worst thing happened in other parts of the world. Yeah, of course. Maybe Maharashtrians are not that bad.
But in the middle of Kirtan, on Ekadashi, all night Kirtan, Bhajan in Maharashtra, they will just drink tea. But I have seen in Bengal during our Padi Yatra and the middle of Kirtan, or they’ll stop in Kirtan and they’ll have a drink. And also Ganja or marijuana, there was smoke.
And then Kirtan again. So I would say, you know, there are 10 offenses against the holy name. The whole world is chanting the holy name.
Indians, Hindus, Maharashtrians, chanting Bhajans and Kirtan. But the 10 offenses against the holy name, they are not aware. They are eternally in Padma Purana.
But our Gauri Vaishnavas have made them popular or they are taught. Our Gauri Vaishnavas, these are the 10 offenses against the holy name. When we are given initiation in the Hare Krishna movement, we are reminded what those 10 offenses are.
But the Maharashtrians, Bhajans, Kirtans, chanters and singers, either they know those or they, of course, follow those offenses. So that’s a good enough. This is not there because of these offenses.
So the four regulative principles are not followed. No meditating, no intoxication, no unnecessary gambling. And these 10 offenses.
I think this is this is unfortunate everywhere. In Bhaktisanth’s biography, it is mentioned that during his times, there would be Bengalis who would have bead bag in one hand and they would go to the fish market and bring fish back with the other hand. So that is unfortunate.
Yes, Maharaj. And you are quoting many, I’m moving on to the next point. You’re quoting many sweet lines from Maharashtrian Bhajans and songs.
So now these have, for every culture, they have a special appeal. Say for Maharashtrians, there will be appeal of Maharashtrian songs. Say and if you go to North India, then we have, there people are very much into Ramcharitmanas and Dohas of Tulsidas.
So there is a special connect and there is a special, you could say, almost intimacy when Bhakti is phrased in the vernacular language, in the language which people have grown up in. So in our outreach, when we are representatives of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition and you are also preaching in Maharashtra. So how much do you utilize or integrate the Marathi Bhakti songs and Bhakti expressions in your outreach? I wish I could do more.
I realized the significance of it. Our Gaudiya Vaishnavacharya, Narottam Das Thakur and Lochan Das Thakur and many other Thakurs and Maharshis and compiles songs which are love philosophy of Krishna consciousness or Gaudiya Vaishnavism or even Leelas, Leelakirtan, Rukirtan, Amkirtan, Bhamkirtan, Nimai Sanyas, Leelakirtan. So when it is in your local language or your mother tongue, then you could follow and digest and assimilate that more easily.
So and the songs of Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Narottam Das Thakur, they are non-different from Vedas. They are Vedas. Otherwise to grasp the Vedas is the Sanskrit language and the Sutra form.
And for these Acharyas, finally, they compose in a vernacular or local Sri Lankan language. So take full advantage of these arrangements. But then some difficulties in these compilations also are 300, 700 year old and language of the words used those days are not the same as these days.
And then again grasping, understanding becomes a bit difficult. So there are, besides myself, there are other other devotees we have in Maharashtra. They are quite well versed with the Abhangas, Vishwaparam Abhangas.
They have memorized or they speak, explain. I do some. Some of them are part of my vocabulary.
Yes, Maharaj. So if I understand right, you said three things that first that our tradition has itself done that in the form of the songs of our Acharyas, Narottam Das Thakur, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Lochin Das Thakur. So in that sense, it’s very much a part of our tradition to say present the Sanskrit message in the in the vernacular languages.
And then you are saying that there are some devotees who are also doing it with respect to Tukaram Maharaja Abhangas and other things. And that can be done. But the challenge is that it is it is a little old English.
And you said you wish you would like to do more. Is it that it is just a matter of logistics or is it that because we are a part of a particular tradition, so there are limits to how much we can we can take resources from other traditions or it’s just more logistical? Well, there’s other tradition and even amongst that other tradition, some is closer to our tradition, Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. But some things maybe is not so close or so well matching our philosophy and tradition and the culture.
We have to be aware of those Karmakarn, Jnanakarn, Kevalabhisheerabharn or or Tukaram Maharaj says if it has a it is changed with the Advait, this non-dual or Nirakaar, Nirgun, Advaitvaad. And I have nothing to do with this Advaitvani. I’m sure there is some Advaitvani or Nirvishesha Shunyavadi that Advaitvaad, Shunyavad or Gautikvaad or Sammevaad or this Vaad.
All this gets mixed and it becomes then the song or those Abhangas could be a Mishra, Karma Mishra or Jnana Mishra or Yoga Mishra. Bhakti, but our principle is Why is it said three times? The explanation is why? Not by Karma, there is one Nasteva. Not by Jnana, there is another Nasteva.
Not by Yoga, there is another Nasteva. So, these things are could be there. So, you have to also be cautious, careful.
So, that could be a reason better to be safe than sorry, as they say. So, just stay awake. And sometimes I find it a little paradoxical or ironical that sometimes in our outreach, we can quote Western authors.
We may quote something from say Shakespeare or Byron or somebody like that. But sometimes we have to be, you could say, almost hyper cautious about quoting someone from the Indian tradition itself. So, although they might be much more spiritual.
So, it’s like the ideological differences may be there. But if you consider the lifestyles of some of the Western people that we quote, just to convey some, to introduce some philosophical point to new people or to say, show how something is relevant, not something very strange or alien. So, in one sense, if there is wisdom and if that can help us to convey, to connect people with Krishna’s wisdom, then does the source matter that much? Because it’s not that we are recommending that source to people.
You just saying you are familiar with this and this is similar point and then this is what. Well, you know, Shankaracharya, he propagated this impersonalism. Yes.
So, we stay away. Mahaprabhu was warned. But when same Shankaracharya talks of Bhaja Govindam, Bhaja Govindam, Govindam, Bhaja Moodhamate, Nahi, Nahi, Raksha, that one.
Go for it. He is Advait Vadi and all that. Yeah, you know, beneficial speaking the truth, Bhaja Govindam, came to this study of grammar and, but what about worshipping Govindam? Or is that whole Bhaja Govindam in a series of verses that’s all as a book called Bhaja Govindam? Yes.
And that talks of Vairagya, the renunciation. And there, there we are together with, we have, we have no issues with Shankaracharya’s Bhaja Govindam and those, those songs. Or when he says, Agna.
And when are you going to worship the Lord? When you are a child, you’re going to be playing, and young man, you’re going to be running after young woman. And when you’re old, you’re going to be absorbed in your anxieties, a freedom person you’re going to become. So, where is your time for the Lord? We have, we welcome this statement of Shankaracharya.
So, it depends. Even, or you know, he, Shankaracharya comes to Pandharpur, and he has a darshan of Vitthal. And he spontaneously composes Panduranga Astakam.
Great. Shankaracharya Ki. There’s Bhaja Pandurangam.
Worship Panduranga. What kind of Panduranga? He has a form, Parabrahma, Lingam, Parabrahma, Param Dhamma, like that. Same thing he’s talking.
What Arjuna said to Krishna in Bhagavad Gita. So, and then he’s glorifying Panduranga to his heart’s content. So, we could do some picking and choosing from even what this, other Sampradaya or saints or Mahatmas have written or spoken.
Yes, Maharaj. So, you mentioned also that’s a very important point about selecting carefully. And you also mentioned that something which is in a few hundred year old Marathi language is meaning may not be clear, or it may not be that accessible.
So, do we also have a living Bhakti tradition right now in Maharashtra, whether within our movement or outside? There are even today people composing Bhakti songs and Bhakti poetry. Is it happening now also? Is that a part of the living tradition in the local languages? Is something like that happening or not much? Yeah, maybe somewhere. There’s nothing dominating the Maharashtrian scene.
In the last 100, 150 years, in general, poetry itself has been going down all over the world. Not much great poetry has been composed. I guess that’s a part of it.
We have to revive our Gaudiya Vaishnava consciousness here. And now we have Chaitanya Charita in Marathi and Bhagavatam in Marathi and Bhagavad Gita, Yatharudasi Ayatasi in Marathi. So, I think this is let Maharashtrians now go for it, grab it, drink it, digest it, assimilate it.
They should take full advantage of what is being made available by Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. I think Maharashtra is waiting, India is waiting, the whole world is waiting for Sauranga Mahaprabhu’s special benediction and International Society for Krishna Consciousness is here to deliver that benediction in the form of chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And in the form of Peter Pope’s books.
And we have temples and darshans and festivals and prasadam. So, this is complete and the top notch. So, I think let world be just happy with this.
Maharashtra, India, the world, be happy with that. Yes, Maharaj. Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu ki, Puram Vijayate Shri Krishna Sankirtanam, and Yes, Maharaj.
Kirpa Upaad Ki Jai. Yes, Maharaj. Hare Krishna woman.
He has established this, under this International Society for Krishna Consciousness. And let us fear that Krishna Consciousness rest of the world. Yes.
The best of our ability. Yes, Maharaj. That’s so true.
So, Maharaj, usually toward the end. The one thing I, yeah, I need to stop now or very soon as I have. Yes, Maharaj.
Almost. So, usually toward the end of the podcast, I quickly summarize what was discussed. And then maybe if you want to your concluding message, we can do that and we’ll stop.
I think I gave my concluding message just now. I was winding up. So, your turn.
So, Maharaj, today we discussed about the universal and regional aspects of bhakti. And you started with your journey, how your spiritual search was such that it took you beyond any cultural differences and you found what your soul was longing for in Prabhupada’s movement, in Prabhupada’s service. And then we discussed about how in Maharashtra from the time when there was just one center in Mumbai to now dozens of centers and thousands and thousands, millions of books being distributed.
You said the Marathi Gita is among the top vernacular languages Gita being distributed. So, it’s been a series of spectacular achievements. And then we discussed about how we are becoming accepted.
Earlier we thought of as maybe CIA or some people who have come from abroad to again gain control. But now you said two, three significant landmarks, how our devotees in 1984 were welcomed in Pandharpur and then how you were appointed, you were appointed, accepted as a Mahant in the Kumbh Mela and how in most temples we are welcomed, especially because of course in Pandharpur it’s very intimate. So, it’s we are not only being accepted but we are also being respected in the mainstream, in the mainstream of India’s religious landscape, except of course for Jagannath Puri.
And then we discussed also about how in Pandharpur there is the whole worship of Krishna. So, it’s although technically or officially is Krishna in Dwarkadheesh, but the mood is of Krishna in Vrindavan very much. And then you mentioned also about how with your research you are highlighting this more and more.
And we talked about the local expressions of bhakti and quoting from local sources. If it is appropriate, we can carefully do that and there is a special enrichment and that’s why our saints have also, our Acharya has also sung in the local languages like Bengali, which Prabhupada said is non-different from the Vedas. And you also concluded by saying how the message of bhakti is now being made available by Sri Prabhupada’s movement, Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s mercy and what Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has prophesied.
This is going to be a global phenomena. It is already manifesting across the world and we can, it is also manifesting in Maharashtra and we can play our part, do our best to share this treasure and take it forward. So, is there anything you would like to add or conclude Maharaj? Thank you for this opportunity, Chaitanya Charan Prabhu.
And it was nice talking to you and I look forward to. It would be an immense honor. Thank you very much for your time and your sharing your, not just your experience and your wisdom, but through all that you are saying, I could sense your devotion pouring out and I feel not just illumined but also enriched and I am sure the audience will also have that experience.
I am immensely grateful to you Maharaj for sparing your time and being here on the Monks Forecast. Thank you very much.