Three ways devotion can cause disruption

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
How devotion Can sometimes lead to disruption And how We can prevent this And how devotion is actually Meant to lead Not to disruption But to contribution Devotion is meant to Make things overall better In our life, in our social circles In the world at large So Does anyone know any words where Disruption comes Devotion and disruption Sorry Sorry Disruption Disruption Where does that disruption come from? Yes So when Our practice of bhakti Is unguided by scripture Then it leads to Disruption So I’ll talk about Disruption in three ways That can happen and I’ll also talk about How within the bhakti tradition itself There are warnings and Resources given for us To prevent this from happening Now when we are Practicing bhakti We are broadly We could say we are dealing with Three Levels Or we could say There is God who is Above us, there is Krishna Who we are trying to reach Then we have The devotee Circle around us Now this could be People who are already devotees, people who are Going to become devotees There is a devotee circle And then we also have Now this may be smaller or bigger Maybe it is smaller This is Our Family or our social Circle that might be there We may all have this in our Profession or our previous Life, we may have a social circle Which may not necessarily be a Devotee circle So In each of these, we all belong to some larger Holes And in those larger holes How we approach That is important So essentially In our approach With others So The danger is in our approach with Krishna, we may become Irrational And we will see how that can Lead to disruption In our approach to devotees And potential devotees We may become insensitive And in Our family and our social circle We may become irresponsible So these three Things, being irrational Being insensitive or being Irresponsible, these can Cause disruption And we all Can learn How this happens, we may observe how it happens And then we can see how we can Prevent it So Let’s discuss this one by one And What does the word Irrational mean? Any thoughts? Non-discriminating Non-discriminating, ok That one is The more Nowadays there is a lot of Discrimination against the word discrimination Because there is Racial discrimination, caste discrimination Gender discrimination So Quite often we use the word discernment Instead of discrimination Discern is to analyse But there is this word indiscriminate Or Somebody who is undiscerning They may not be Careful In looking at things So that’s one aspect of Irrational, anything else? Sentimental, yes Irrational is whimsical Illogical Illogical, yes So Broadly What happens These are all valid meanings Irrationality is there Basically In the name of devotion We send Intelligence On an exile So just as Kai Kai had Ram sent on vanvas We Send the buddhi on vanvas We exile the intelligence So What happens is, in the name of devotion The intelligence Intelligence Can become devalued Don’t be a gyani Don’t be over analytical It can be dismissed Not only dismissed It can even be demonised That If you think too much If you ask too many questions You will become a Perpetual doubting person What is that? You ask too many questions You know You will commit offences Don’t ask any questions about other people’s behaviour So So So sometimes When this happens in the name of devotion That can lead to serious problems So I’ll talk about Each of these ways, devotion can be disruptive Can be discussed elaborately But I’ll talk about three broad ways In which it can happen So at a basic level What can happen is That people Start believing in miracles There is a naive People become very naive And now can god do miracles? Of course, it’s possible But there are many claims Of miracles Which may actually not be true So I’ll talk about these three Broad levels of problems These are not specific to any particular tradition They can occur anywhere But I’ll talk about These In Non-Vedic religions Then I’ll talk about something In irrationality Can appear within the Vedic religion And then I’ll talk about how Irrationality can cause problems in our own Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition So Especially In Christianity There is a whole concept of faith healing Your faith healing is If you believe in Jesus You just pray to Jesus Accept Jesus as your saviour And you’ll be healed And there are cases Where people, somebody goes on kachis In front of the pastor Puts some sacred water And the person just throws away the kachis I can walk I have been healed Now There are many exposé videos About this, showing how this is actually elaborate deception Sometimes there is a psychological Fervour that is created, just like there is a placebo effect Now sometimes Somebody thinks that I have got a medicine and they feel healed But if there is actually A serious disease, they don’t get healed Sometimes these people are not at all Crippled, they just pretend to be Sometimes they may be And they seem to get cured But then after that, it doesn’t last for long So sometimes I am not going into specifically The way in which it happens But the point is, while miracles can happen But miracles can also be used To Irrationally Mislead and exploit people So Sometimes it happens that Say You go to a hospital Which is run by some Christian Now this is not to demonize Christianity at all Like The Bhagavad Gita says that There is So there are Christians Who are in So these are Tamasic ways of preaching That are done by some Christians And the point here is not to criticise Christianity The point is To highlight how irrationality Can lead people to be exploited And we could find some other examples In the Hindu tradition also So the point is that If people think that I don’t have to think Then they can be very easily exploited Similarly fanaticism Extremism, radicalism Generally it happens When devotion To one’s particular way of worship One particular way of religion Comes at the expense Of reason This is how it is This is what you have to believe This is how you have to live And I have a friend in California Who has done his PhD in deradicalization In the western world there is a lot of immigration From the middle east also So there is a lot of concern How people who come from the middle east How they can be integrated Into the broader community So There is a In UK There is a huge immigration That’s one of the reasons UK went out of EU And became Brexit But now in London Actually the number of white people Is actually less than the number of immigrants And So They have a lot of concern about We don’t want these people who have come from a different place To become radicalized So one of the things is That education and employment Within the broader world When people just mix with other people We have stereotypes about Oh these people are like this But when you actually interact with people When you get educated When we give reason and opportunity Is this person really like this? Is this person not? Now does that ensure that nobody will become radicalized? No of course people will still become radicalized But the point is radicalization Happens because of There is devotion That is at the expense of reason The Bhagavatam also talks about Dharma, about Shraddha in the Three modes So that is intolerant Intolerant and separatist And it becomes violent afterwards So When you irrationally Believe Whatever we are told Without using our intentions There is a difference between Every religious tradition Has to give education But there is a difference between education And indoctrination Education Is more about How to think It is about The process of thinking To develop our thinking ability Indoctrination Is about what to think It is about It is about the finished product This is what you have to think That’s all there is to it So what actually Spiritual tradition should be giving Is education or indoctrination Education So Now if you consider This is within the Broad Religious landscape Where in the name of devotion People can become irrational and violent Now if you consider in the Vedic tradition itself So here we can have Faith healing And radicalization So Radicalism is basically extremism Fanaticism Now in the Vedic tradition We have this whole tradition of There are demigods And there are semigods Say me god I am god So I am god So Any person who can do a little bit Miracles Anybody who can do something extraordinary They start claiming I am god I was in America People put all kinds of crazy things on their t-shirts I was at a college One boy had a slogan on his t-shirt I was an atheist Till I discovered I was god Laughter So People This is a very self-serving belief That I am god And yes there are people Who can do some miracles And there are mystic powers where miracles are possible But miracles themselves are not The evidence of god And then there is this claim to be god The result of that Is that The devotion that is meant for god Is misdirected towards someone else And devotion to that person Cannot give higher taste Now that person May not be immoral That person may also be a good person Maybe they don’t say call me god But others call them god And they accept it But no person can elevate Others the way god can Everyone else is meant to be linked to god So India Is going through a very interesting cultural phenomenon India is becoming Religiously Reassertive After the building of the Ram temple There is religious reassertiveness But at the same time There is a lot of Materialism A lot of Seeking wealth, flaunting wealth And that itself Is not a bad thing if it raises people above poverty And enables people to live Without too much anxiety But quite often The India is becoming religious And it is becoming materialistic It is not becoming really Spiritual So There are these temples of Ganesh Called Visa Ganesh temples People are like The biggest obstacle in my life is the American embassy Is not giving me a visa So oh lord Ganesh please give me a visa So I was in Varanasi And I saw A temple of Hanuman over there And right on top of that temple It is written You are a brahmachari, give me a woman You are a brahmachari You don’t need any woman Give me one woman please Now I don’t know whether it was a joke or not If it was a joke it was a bad taste to write something like that On a temple So what happens is Now this idea of people claiming to be god Can have many effects And I am going to focus on this one thing That there is There is loss of higher taste.
And when there is no higher taste, the higher taste that actually comes by bhakti will make people religious and spiritual. But today what is happening is people are religious and materialistic. Are they necessarily becoming spiritual? That is questionable.
So, this leads to a lot of uncritical acceptance of anything and everything in the name of religion. Apparently, it’s not only like religious teachers were made into God. There are temples for movie stars also.
There are temples of Avidha Bachchan, there are temples of Madhuri Dixit, there are happens is that this, there was one American, one European thinker, he said sarcastically, many Indians, many Hindus quote it proudly actually. They put it as a glory of India quote. As far as religion is concerned, India is the only millionaire.
What they meant by that, all religions have one God. Indians have millions of Gods and they keep increasing. There was one Indian devotee’s son, he showed me a quote of how ideas are being circulated.
Like this, Indians are becoming more assertive culturally, religiously. So, there is an Indian boy in America and American boy is asking him, why do you people worship so many Gods? And Indian boy scratches his head, he says, we like to keep backups. So, basically where devotion is at the cost of reason, then it becomes like a license of free for all.
Now, free for all means, anybody can do anything in the name of devotion. That leads to disruption in many different ways, at least in the sense that people don’t really grow spiritually. Now, within the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition itself, this, the lack of reason has led to Sahajiyaism.
Sahajiyaism was a very peculiar phenomenon. Now, the meanings of words change with time. Now, Sahaj originally meant natural, easy, spontaneous.
So, there is one devotee friend who is studying Bengali and Bengali Vaishnavism. He showed me a book which was written almost 300-400 years ago, how Ramanand Rai was a glorious Sahajiya Vaishnava. So, Sahajiya was not an insult at that time, that he was such an exalted devotee with spontaneous devotion.
But now, it has come to be cheap. Those who take devotion, very cheap. So, now what exactly happened with respect to Sahajiyaism is that basically there are characteristics of advanced devotion.
And in a pious society, in a devotional community, when those symptoms are exhibited, that is seen as a sign of, oh, this is an exalted devotee. There is a lot of respect. While taking darshan, if somebody, you see somebody who is crying tears, somebody falls and starts fainting or their hair is tied on end, and then these are all signs of exalted devotion.
And these transformations are vividly described in the founding texts of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, Chaitanya Chaitanya Brahmagupta and other texts. But over the centuries what started happening was, people who did not have that level of devotion, started pretending to have that level of devotion. And to just to get respect.
And this had become very rampant by the time of Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Bhaktiswami Prabhu. And that’s why they spoke very strongly against it. That basically, so there is devotion pretended to be there for the sake of prestige.
That itself is bad enough. So, but it can cause very serious disruption when it just goes, it goes far beyond. The Sahajiyaism can get at many levels, but at a basic level, we may ourselves claim premature spiritual experiences.
For example, one devotee, I asked one devotee, how did you, how did you come to Bhakti? So he said, first time I came to Radha Gopinath temple, I looked at Gopinath and Gopinath winked at me. I was so amazed by it, I kept coming, waiting for Gopinath to wink at me again. But in waiting for him, I started participating in kirtas, started attending classes and then the philosophy and the practice, I practiced.
So now, could Gopinath have winked? Now, we don’t know. We can’t say Gopinath can’t do something like that. But here the result was anukun.
Isn’t it? Like somebody may claim to have some supernatural experiences. Like Krishna came in my dream yesterday. Can Krishna come in our dream? Who are we to stop Krishna from coming in someone’s dream? Isn’t it? But the point is, it has to, the result has to be anukun.
So once one person came to Prabhupada and said, Swamiji, Krishna came in my dream yesterday. And Prabhupada said, all right, serve him today. So the point is, yes, if some, if there are supernatural experiences, fine.
But they should inspire us to commit ourselves to our relationship with Krishna. So, when there are some non-spiritual experiences, we have to see whether their effect is favorable or unfavorable. We don’t have to reject or dismiss such experiences.
But what we can say is that, actually, if such experiences are there, don’t publicize them. Don’t cheapen them by seeking prestige to them. See them as indications.
Whether it is Krishna actually doing it, whether it is the mind creating some hallucination, don’t go into that so much. Even if it is a hallucination created by the mind, ultimately it could never happen without Krishna’s suggestion. So see that as Krishna encouraging you in the path of bhakti.
And commit yourself to the path of bhakti mukha. But, so there can be premature spiritual experiences that can be favorable. But there can be pretense of ecstasy.
And this can be especially damaging. Because a claim to be respectable and glorious, and naive people, they start accepting it. So Gaurav Mishra has always used the example, let’s say when a woman is pregnant, and she is nearing delivery.
Then, as the water breaks, as the contraction happens, more and more then, she starts screaming. Because the pain of the delivery is there, the baby is coming out. Now when, if she starts screaming, all the loud ones and others attenders, they come there running.
And they try to offer support and care and everything. And through her screaming, and through the whole process of pregnancy, her beautiful new life is going to come. But suppose seeing how much attention that woman is getting, some other woman says, I will also start screaming.
And she is not pregnant at all. Now her screaming may attract some attention initially, but eventually people will say there is nothing to pay attention to over here. And her screaming is not going to lead to a child being born.
So, similarly he says that, when a devotee is filled with love for Krishna, a devotee is pregnant with love for Krishna, then there may be ecstatic symptoms. And those may attract others. But the result of those ecstatic symptoms is that, just like a baby is born, through those ecstatic symptoms, our devotion gets deepened.
Our attraction to Krishna becomes stronger. It is not that we start becoming more and more dependent on the world’s praise. So, if that second thing is happening, that is unwilling.
So, devotion can cause disruption. The most toxic, however, is through what Prabhupada called as Ras Leela and there is Rascal Leela. Now, what is this Rascal Leela? It was, there is, in the Bhakti tradition, there is this concept of Avesh.
There are two ways in which the divine can, there is the spiritual level and there is the material level. So, the normal way is what we call as Avatar. So, the Avatar comes from the spiritual level and descends to the material level and stays for a lifespan and then departs.
But there is something called Avesh. Avesh is where the divine enters into a person. Chetan Chatterjee said that Nakula Brahmachari, when he would speak, it was as if Chetani Mahaprabhu was speaking to him.
That’s what people felt. His Avesh had entered. Now, in the culture of drama, dramaturgy or Natya, there is this concept of Avesh which is very prominent.
That when somebody is actually doing a drama, they should so deeply, prayerfully, devotionally enter into the mood of that character, that it is almost as if the Avesh of that character enters in that person. In Varanasi, when they have this Ram Leela, they do the drama of Ram. Like the boy who acts as Ram, on that day, his father will come and bow down to that boy.
Today, you are not my son. Today, actually Ram is having an Avesh to me. So, that is the mood over there.
So, now what happened over time was, there were some so-called Gaudiya Vaishnavas and recently there is a Bollywood movie also made about this. Maharaja, that is the name of the movie. Basically, what happens is that there were some of these so-called spiritual leaders and they said that actually, when we become devotionally receptive, then actually the Lord and his consorts enter into us.
So, a male spiritual leader will say that actually Krishna has entered into you. And they will tell their female disciples, Radha is entering into you. And when we unite, it is not mundane, it is spiritual.
We are not enjoying, Radha and Krishna are enjoying through us. And this was a complete perversion. And many, many people get misled by this.
And the result of this is that it leads to, it is not just a cheap prestige, it is downright immorality being rationalized in the name of devotion. So, this has become alarmingly widespread. And that’s why from Bhakti Sahaja Thakur’s time onwards, these ecstatic symptoms of Bhakti, they were more or less respectfully retired upstairs.
What do we mean by that? That respectfully retired upstairs means that these are exalted symptoms and we accept that these are possible. But we don’t focus on them in our practice of Bhakti. In the Bhakti there are other symptoms that are described.
So, there are some things which are easily immutable. You know, I think Bhakti Sahaja Thakur would say that what is the price of the tears of love of God? What is the price of tears of ecstasy? He said, you know, it is just the price of one onion. So, basically that aspect of Bhakti, so there are these in an immutable symptoms of devotion, there are the, if you see there is Bhakti Saamsindhu, we talk about six characters of pure devotional service.
But afterwards, there are symptoms of devotion that are described. And there are some which are immutable. So, for example, the ecstatic symptoms are to some extent immutable.
But there are symptoms which are non-immutable. Say for example, avyartha kalatva, not wasting time, constantly being engaged in Krishna’s service. That is not possible unless somebody has authentic devotion.
Then nama gani sadaruchi, samut kanta, being eager to glorify Krishna, being eager to hear about Krishna, being detached from material things. This you cannot make, if you don’t have it, you can’t make a show for a long time. So, from Bhakti Sahaja Thakur onwards, the symptoms of advanced devotion that were emphasized were these more non-immutable symptoms.
So, this way, this is again the example of the reason being rejected in the name of devotion. So, this can cause a lot of disruption in society. Now, in the Bhakti tradition itself, the reason is or intelligence is not to be exact.
Krishna said, in fact, that we should not see intelligence as separate from devotion. He says, So, he says, we can worship Krishna with our intelligence. So, just like we do puja with aarti lamp and with flowers.
So, we can worship Krishna with our intelligence. So, for us within Bhakti, studying, analyzing, reasoning, it doesn’t have to be simply an intellectual activity. It is a devotional activity where when we have buddhi that is given to us by Krishna, we use it in Krishna’s service.
So, of course, ultimately Krishna cannot be understood by rationality alone. But there is a difference. There is rational, there is irrational, which is below reason.
And then there is trans-rational. That when we say something is irrational, that means it can’t stand the scrutiny of reason. If you examine logically, it just makes no sense at all.
Whereas, when something is trans-rational, the scrutiny of reason can’t stand before it. So, in Bhakti, there are many things that are reasonable. So, for example, the nature of the existence of the soul, the nature of the soul, the existence of God, the broad characteristics of God, all these are very much reasonable.
So, in general, in theology, what is theology? Study of God. In theology, there are two aspects to it. There is rational theology and there is revelational theology.
So, rational theology is that aspect of the philosophy and especially the nature of God that can be understood through reason. So, that God exists, that God is kind, all that God is presented in us, these can be inferred through reason, through various forms of reasoning. But that God is a bluish black cowherd boy who plays a flute and wears a peacock feather.
There is no amount of reasoning that can lead us to that. Now, that is not illogical. That is a part of revelational theology.
So, that is, that is something, if God is really a person, every person will have their preferences and those are features of their personality and we accept that. So, Bhakti acknowledges that not everything about God can be understood through reason. But that does not mean reason has to be exiled for understanding.
We go as far as reason goes and then we go further. We go further. We don’t let reason stop us.
But we don’t reject reason. So, the relationship of reason with devotion can be that the one extreme is rejection. The role of reason in devotion.
One is rejection, the other is domination. If something does not make logical sense, I will never accept it. But the balance stage is utilisation.
To whatever extent we have been given buddhi, we have to use it. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena. We have buddhi, we need to use that buddhi.
So, utilisation. Some people have a lot of intelligence, lot of analytical capacity, they will use that in Krishna’s service. Some people may not be that analytical, then whatever intelligence they have, they use in Krishna’s service.
But rationality needs to be used. So, that’s the first point. Within the Bhakti tradition itself, there are safeguards to prevent devotion leading to disruption in the name of irrationality.
What was the second one? Do you remember? Yes, insensitivity. So, sometimes, in the name of devotion, what can happen is that when we start understanding the philosophy of Bhakti, hey, this makes so much sense. We start practising Bhakti and we start becoming peaceful, some of our bad habits start going away, we start becoming more even-tempered, start becoming excited, hey, this is so good.
And naturally we want to share it with others. And that is good. Enthusiasm is desirable.
Prabhupada gives the example that if we have been sick for a long time and we have finally found a medicine that works and then we see somebody else sick with that same thing, we will actually want to tell them, take this, it will be cured. So, Prabhupada said that when we do outreach, outreach is the word that is nowadays being used instead of preaching, because preaching has a little bit of preachy connotation. Like, you know, I am sitting high above and I am going to instruct all of you.
So, it’s a very Christian word. So, it did not have that much of a negative connotation in 1960s, but nowadays it has a significantly negative connotation. Our devotees who are doing tribal care, initially they had tribal preaching centre, they called it.
Then they called it tribal outreach centre. Now they call it tribal care centre. So, the idea is when we are doing outreach, it’s good to be enthusiastic.
But when we become over-enthusiastic, then it can lead to problems. So, when we are over-enthusiastic, what happens is that we start becoming very judgmental about everyone. The shastras tell us, sarvopadhi vinirmuktam, that bhakti should free us from all labels.
But we start putting labels on everyone. You are a demigod worshipper, you are a mayavadi, you are a mundane philanthropist. You know, you are attached, you are this, you are that.
Just we try to put everyone into convenient boxes. And by that, it’s a very ruckus way of looking at things. So, when you can become judgmental about what people, their beliefs are, what they believe and what their practices are.
Now, what is the result of this? The result of this is that we can come off as very narrow-minded. Although our tradition is quite inclusive. In the sense that, there are multiple ways.
There is karma yoga, jnana yoga, dhyana yoga, bhakti yoga. Krishna himself has created the system of the worship of many devatas. Now, of course, there is an ultimate reality.
Krishna recommends as sarva-dharmankaritijan. But there is nowhere in the Bhagavad Gita that Krishna condemns karma yoga. There is nowhere in the Bhagavad Gita that Krishna condemns dhyana yoga.
There is nowhere in the Bhagavad Gita that Krishna condemns dhyana yoga. Arjuna says, it is difficult. Now, it is interesting, Krishna does not join Arjuna’s condemnation.
Krishna only says, yes, it is difficult. abhyasena tu kaunteya vairagya chivaruhyate So, he gives, abhyas and vairagya are broad principles. Now, abhyas and vairagya can be required for dhyana yoga.
Basically, it is like medicine. Whether you are taking Ayurveda or allopathy or naturopathy, there will be abhyas. Do some things and vairagya.
Don’t do some things. So, Krishna does not really join Arjuna in condemning or rejecting dhyana. Krishna clearly and strongly recommends bhakti yoga.
No doubt about it. But Krishna does not demean or dismiss any other path. So, the Vedic tradition is quite inclusive.
So, with respect to paths, there are some paths which are exclusive. Exclusivist. Exclusivist means, this is the only way.
My way is the way to God and if you are not following it, you are going to go to hell. And exclusivist, people sometimes become even extremist. So, exclusivism is more in thought, extremism is in action.
Not only are you going to go to hell, we will help you get there faster. Now, the opposite of that is pluralist. Now, modern Hinduism is often thought of as pluralist.
That is, okay, whatever you want to believe, you can believe that. One such leader was asked, how many gods are there in India? So, he said, as many people are there in India. So, the idea is that, not that everybody is God, but that everybody has their own conception of God.
And whatever is that conception, that is right for them. Now, pluralist is actually, as far as people having the right to believe what they want. Then nobody can legislate or impose faith on anyone.
So, in that sense, people can believe what they want. But there is a difference between believing what we want and claiming that our belief is reality. So, pluralist and exclusivist themselves are, all paths are right.
If all paths are right, then somebody says, only my path is right. Then that path will also be right. Isn’t it? And if that path is right, then all paths can’t be right.
Did you get the logical contradiction? See, all paths are right. This is pluralism. If all paths are right, then the path which says, only my path is right.
That also has to be right. Isn’t it? But if this is right, then this can’t be right. So, pluralism is actually self contradictory.
So, the actual Vedic teaching is more of inclusivism. Inclusivism means that there is one purpose. And there can be many paths towards that one purpose.
That means what? Ultimately, everybody, mamma vartamanu vartante manusyaha partha sarocha All people are on my path. Now, everybody is, in their own way, trying to experience higher consciousness. They want to have a richer experience of life.
They want to be happier. Now, some people, in pursuing higher consciousness, may actually be going down to lower consciousness. Like some people may explore higher consciousness through drugs.
Now, they will go down to lower consciousness by that. But the point is that, if we consider the top of a mountain to be spiritual consciousness, the bottom of the mountain to be material consciousness, then there can be many paths up the mountain. Now, this does not necessarily mean all paths are equal.
Some path may be very rocky. Some path may be very marshy. Some path may be very smooth.
So, there is a difference. But there can be many paths up the mountain. So, there is one purpose.
That is to go from material consciousness to spiritual consciousness. Prabhupada said, the purpose is to develop love of God. And on that criteria, Prabhupada appreciated Jesus.
He said, He is our Guru. So, the idea is that we accept. Now, that many paths can take one up the mountain.
But that does not mean all paths. Some paths may just go round and round the mountain. Some paths may go only half the way up the mountain.
Some paths may go down into valley from the mountain. So, inclusivism is not the same as pluralism. So, we understand that there are different paths which can help people grow to different degrees.
So, we are not meant to be exclusivist. Although sometimes, we can come off as exclusive. So, when we become insensitive, then what happens is, we come off as, we are seen as intolerant.
And then people just turn away from us. I don’t want anything to do with these people. Lot of people become close to us because of our perceived intolerance.
So, this is something which Krishna himself warns. We should avoid it. Krishna says in 3.26 So, Krishna is talking about two levels of people.
There could be a teacher and there could be a seeker. So, Krishna says, this person at the higher level is wise and detached or engaged. Connected.
So, Vidvan and Yukta. And this person is ignorant and attached. So, clearly, one person is at the higher level than the other.
Now, we may say somebody, it’s like, we go out for Hainam Kirtan and somebody just comes and joins. Hey, this is so wonderful. Somebody may say, you know, I was going for a party but dancing here gave me more happiness.
And we say, wonderful. Now, come tomorrow morning at 4.30. And come everyday at 4.30. And now, they have some interest, some curiosity. But what happens, sometimes people are at a particular level and from here, we expect them to take a high jump right up to extremely high level.
And some people may try the high jump but if they can’t do it, then they go further down. They try something and they start thinking it’s impractical and they just go away from it. Instead, what Krishna says is, Krishna says, don’t do this.
Don’t disturb people. Instead, what he says, He says, create a pathway by which, step by step, gradually, people can come to that level. So, okay, what is it that you can do? So, it’s like there are two things over here.
For this to happen, we appreciate where they are at. And then we elevate them. That, they may be at a lower level but they are at least looking upwards.
They are looking for a way to move upwards. So, we appreciate that. And then we elevate them.
Now, even in elevating, there can be different staircases. There can be some staircase which is very steep but takes you very fast. Some staircase may be very gentle, it may take some time.
But, as long as people are going up, we can appreciate. In Srila Prabhupada’s times, we see that there were his full-time disciples. He gave them very strong instructions to them and they left everything for serving him.
But then there were also the life members. Now, the life members, many of them did a lot of service to Prabhupada. But, hardly any of them actually became initiated disciples.
Very few of them committed to sadhana unnecessarily in terms of political number of rounds. But, if you see the letter that Prabhupada wrote to them, the conversation that Prabhupada had, Prabhupada was very warm with them, very appreciative. Prabhupada was not guilting them constantly.
Why are you not chanting 16 Ramas? We all say that. Prabhupada would say that my Guru Maharaj pushed me, I am pushing you, you push others. We are a pushing parampara.
Now, everybody needs to be pushed. But, while pushing, we have to watch. While we are pushing, are people going towards Krishna or are they getting pushed away from Krishna? So, if we are insensitive, we end up unnecessarily alienating people.
Unnecessarily alienating people. Now, some of you may know that in America, there is emerging politician Tulsi Gawad. So, she is very highly respected at least in the conservative circles.
And she is quite charismatic. She is a disciple of Siddha Swarupanand. Who was a disciple of Sri Prabhupada.
Now, Siddha Swarupanand was actually he had he was himself a Guru before then he came with his disciples to ISKCON. But then he found it difficult to work with the current ISKCON leaders at that time. And in his interactions with Prabhupada, Prabhupada appreciated and accommodated him.
But, eventually what happened after Prabhupada departed, things went in such a way that he just, I don’t want to go into the exact history. But the point was that he left ISKCON. Whether he left ISKCON, he was driven out of ISKCON, whatever.
Now, he and his followers had a huge amount of preaching. In fact, his western preaching is actually more than the western preaching of all of ISKCON right now. Through his followers.
And he is teaching Gaudiya Vaishnavism. His followers appreciate Prabhupada and they read Prabhupada’s Bhagavad Gita as it is. So, was it necessary to create that fracture? We could have had that Tulsi Gabbard may become a big minister or even the president of America in future.
She is a future candidate. So, we could have had somebody who could have been ISKCON devotee. But there are some people who need more space.
Now, we can give them that space. Now, that does not mean they can do whatever they want. But when space is given, there are many influential people who can connect and support in different ways.
With George Harrison, what did Prabhupada do? Initially, Prabhupada told George Harrison that make songs about Krishna. And he started doing that. And we know about the success story.
But there is always the downside of it. My Sweet Lord and songs like that became immensely popular. But then he started doing devotional songs.
What happened is you see, he is a professional. And when he is a professional musician, people expect a professional product from him. Isn’t it? So, here on Madison Square Avenue, one of the biggest venues in New York in America, there he started telling his audience, chant Hare Krishna.
And he was like a superstar at that time. Probably the most popular person in the world at that time. The audience started throwing bottles and onions and tomatoes and eggs at him.
And all his reviews started tanking. And people started saying that George Harrison was such a great talent. He got involved with this Hare Krishna cult.
And the world has lost such a great musical talent because of that. Then he came and met Prabhupada. Now to understand this, to understand what is the problem over here.
Now India won the T20 World Cup. But before that we got in the finals. And we lost in the finals.
So, imagine Cesarat Kohli or Rohit Sharma were a devotee. And India has lost the World Cup finals and very badly lost it. And then, after the post-match interview, asking, why do you think India lost? Everything is temporary.
Just chant Hare Krishna. Now, you cannot imagine a worse anti-preaching in India than this. You are telling people to chant Hare Krishna and driving them away from chanting Hare Krishna.
Because if you are a cricketer, you have to perform as a cricketer. And then in addition to that, you can talk about your spirituality. So, the thing that happens is, George Harrison met Prabhupada and Prabhupada He said, Prabhupada, I am doing what you told me to do, but for every one person that I am bringing to Krishna, I feel there are 100 people who are going away from Krishna.
And Prabhupada became green. And Prabhupada said, use your intelligence. He said, do it in such a way that people are attracted.
So, then he started writing normal songs, the kind he was writing before. And he started interspersing some devotional songs in between. So, then people started saying, Oh, thank God that George Harrison has come out of the clutches of this cult.
And he continued. Now, he was quite open about his devotion if he reads, chant Hare Krishna and be happy, the books like that. But, he was discreet.
So, the point here is that we cannot be insensitive in the sense that what are people’s concerns? What are people’s expectations? We need to be aware of that. Now, we can’t always address all of them. That is true.
So, being sensitive does not mean we care only for people. We have to also care for their elevation. And sometimes that means speaking certain things which are not really palatable for people.
But that balance has to be found. So, Krishna says in 1715 in the Bhagavad Gita that he talks about discipline of speech. Anudvega Karam Vakyam Satyam Priyahitam Chaitam Swadhyaya Abhyasinam Chaiva Vanmayam Tapa Uchyate Now, this can be understood as we need to be sensitive and we need to be sensible.
So, to be sensitive means Anudvega Karam Vakyam. Our speech should be at least non-agitating. Preferably, it can be pleasing.
Now, we can’t always speak the pleasing things. Because sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes the truth may be bitter but the bitter truth also doesn’t have to be spoken bitterly.
Isn’t it? So, you can say it’s like a funnel. At least try to be non-agitating. If possible, try to be pleasing also.
Then, Krishna also says, be helpful and be truthful. So, there are many truths that can be spoken but not all truths have to be spoken at the same time. You see, a couple is married for 30 years and on 30th wedding anniversary the husband says to the wife, today I will give you a gift that will change your life.
I will help you to become. Today, I will tell you all the faults that I have observed in the last 30 years. By doing these faults, you can become a better person.
Wow! That may be the last wedding anniversary. So, there are many truths that can be spoken but the first thing is, is it helpful? So, Krishna says, Satyam but also Hitam. Satyam and Hitam.
So, among the truths that can be spoken, which are the truths that are going to be helpful for the person? So, we want it to be a balance of being sensitive and sensible. If only we are sensitive, then we will become headless. In the name of being sensitive, we start thinking falsity, which is not required.
On the other hand, if we are only sensible, then we will become heartless. So, insensitivity can cause a lot of disruption. Our Shastras itself tell us, there are many references for being sensitive.
So, that brings us to the last part. What was the last part? Irresponsible. Yes, we can be irresponsible in our social roles and that irresponsibility can be in the name of devotion.
So, basically, there is a difference between renunciation and frustration. You know, I had one experience and Radheshapura apparently had a similar experience. Maybe it was the same boy who had come.
But anyway, I was in Pune. I was sitting in the guest reception and one boy came. He says, what is the process of joining here? He said, you want to become a brahmachari? He said, yeah.
Okay. He says, I have not seen him come to the temple. So, I asked him, are you serious about becoming a brahmachari? He said, on Sunday I will be deciding.
So, it was Thursday. What is going to happen on Sunday? He said, I have proposed to a girl. If she says no, I will become a brahmachari.
So, now, there is a fundamental difference between renunciation and frustration. So, there is two things in this world. There are many things to enjoy.
There is the desire to enjoy and there is the availability of the enjoyment. So, basically, what happens is, when there is frustration and when there is renunciation. In frustration, the desire is there, the availability is not there.
In renunciation, the availability may be there, but the desire is not there. So, frustration is not a qualification for renunciation. Frustration may make one start exploring spirituality.
But afterwards, one has to develop positive spiritual attraction. If one does not develop positive spiritual attraction, when that spiritual attraction leads to a higher desire, that higher desire becomes stronger, then the lower desire starts declining. So, we may have desire, but at least, even if the desire is present, we should not have the desire for the desire.
That means, desires come up within me, but I am not trying to increase the desires. I am not trying to fuel the desires. Krishna says, na kama kami Don’t be a desirer of desire.
Desire comes in, apuryamala-machala-patiṣṭham samudra-māpā-praviśanti-yad-dvait tad-dvait-kāmāyaṁ praviśanti sarve saśānuti māpnoti na kāma kāma So, it is an example of a river flowing into an ocean. So, the river is flowing in, but the water does not overflow. Like that, desires may arise.
When we say, be free from desire, it does not necessarily mean there is no agitation. Krishna later says that, as long as we have a body, desire will be there. Certain level of desires are just biological desires.
They will arise, but we don’t indulge in those desires. We don’t look forward to those desires. We don’t feed and fan those desires.
So, renunciation is very different from frustration. So, many times, when we talk about devotional renunciation, it is not so much giving up responsibility. It is actually taking up a higher responsibility.
It is taking up a higher responsibility. If our focus is only on giving up responsibility, then, when we practice bhakti also, there are responsibilities to be taken up. If we are turning away from the world because there are so many problems in the world, then the result will be, okay, you come to bhakti, when you are practicing bhakti, even when you are in the brahmacharya ashram, even when you are living in the temple, there are problems everywhere.
So, if we run away from the world because of the responsibilities that are leading to problems, we come to a non-solved and also there are problems, then where are we going to run away after that? Isn’t it? So, if somebody is irresponsible, what happens? Three things can happen. Irresponsible is at one level, there is a disruption in the immediate circles. Immediate circles.
So, you know, there may be family, there may be others who are dependent. We cannot just abandon those. I met one devotee.
I knew him to be a firebrand preacher. Very confrontational, very dismissive kind of preacher. So, he told me, he introduced me to one of his assistants.
He says, this devotee is so sincere. His wife refused to become a devotee, so he divorced her. Now, you know, I was not just shocked, there is shock, shock square and shock cube.
So, why? See, first of all, we are not meant to break families. It’s one thing if somebody is unmarried and chooses to become a brahmachari. But if somebody is married, you know, Prabhupada himself did not abandon his wife and children.
He said, if I had not been married, I would have immediately joined the mission. So, that, it’s a shocking. Prabhupada continued on and then eventually renounced.
He tried to do preaching as much as he could while he was with Rajas Parshuram. So, I found it as a shocking cube. Why? First of all, breaking of dharma, breaking of family.
That’s, to think that that is a good thing. That itself, that itself bad. And to see breaking of family as a sign of seriousness of devotion.
That is even worse. And then, to broadcast that. You know, see, generally, whatever the leader glorifies, everybody tries to follow that.
So, do we want to glorify that? Sometimes, for whatever reason, sometimes families may break, that’s unfortunate. That’s tragic in some ways. But sometimes unavoidable.
But we don’t want to ever glorify that. We don’t want devotion to be used as an excuse for doing that. So, in the immediate circles, there is disruption because of that.
So, we don’t want to be irresponsible. But beyond that, what happens is, in the broader society, the perception is created. What is the perception? The perception is that we are escapists.
There was a survey done in America, and in the western world, our movement went to various stages. So, initially, we had devotees everywhere. Kirtans, distributing books.
So, there were some surveys done. How many Hare Krishnas do you think are there? So, the count that people gave was between 50 to 100 times more than the actual number of devotees. Because we were so visible.
But then they asked, what do you think about the Hare Krishnas? So, then many replies came. Some people said, these are cultists, and these are that. But those were like fringe minority people.
Those who were very anti-cult campaigners. But one significant opinion that was there in America, that came in that survey was, what do you think about the Hare Krishnas? A jolly bunch of impractical people. You know, they are jolly, they are singing and dancing, but they have nothing to do with the real world.
Now, when we say this is not the real world, that is the real world. You know. You know, that is not going to work for them.
So, they are not at that level. We have to make sense to them at the level that they are. So, we start being seen off as escapists.
We start seeing as somebody who we just don’t have much to do with. Now, fortunately, if you see, our movement’s reputation has changed. That, in the past, we were seen as, to some extent, you know, people who when somebody becomes a devotee, a young boy, they’ll become brahmachari.
A family, they’ll just become disconnected from the whole society. But now, things are changing, that we are seen as a respected organisation. This brand itself is fairly respected.
And somehow, monks have become cool now. So, you know, many of our devotees are writing books. Most of us, we were earlier self-publishing books.
But now, we are going to mainstream publishers. And not only mainstream publishers are accepting the books, they are insisting that the monks picture be on the cover. And even if that monk is not a very well-known monk, still, that is a monk, this book is written by a monk.
So, somehow, cultural perceptions have changed. I would say that one of the reasons is we have been seen as contributory social. Some devotees have got into self-help and they have given wisdom that makes sense to people and adds value to the life where they are at.
We have done projects like say, giving food and chai or other projects which seep that we are doing something valuable. So, whatever the reason is, my point is that yes, there will be renunciates and there will be people who should take renunciation. But that should not become a license.
Just somebody has trouble, I just want to leave everything. It should not be an escape way. Bhakti, I will conclude this with one last point.
Bhakti is meant to be an express way to Krishna. It is not meant to be an escape way from problems. If you are looking for an escape way from problems, actually, there are lot of problems on the express way to Krishna.
If you are serious about If you are serious about serving Krishna, if you are serious about our relationship with Krishna, then in our sadhana, in our seva, there will be problems. Prabhupada said that our seriousness and our bhakti can be seen by how much responsibility we take up in our service. Now, doing some small, small service, ok, serve prasadam.
Ok, we serve prasadam and go away. But if we take responsibility to make sure that prasadam serving happens properly, that responsibility will engage our mind much more. Otherwise, we just serve.
We don’t even look at who is serving, we are thinking about other things. But then if we take responsibility, ok, if this person is not available, what do I do? So, taking responsibility is actually a way to fix our mind in Krishna. Among the various kinds of dhyan, there is rupa dhyan, there is nama dhyan, nila dhyan, that Rupa Goswami talks about.
Seva dhyan is probably the most accessible form of dhyan. So, when we take responsibility, what happens is, we can do seva dhyan. And why is seva dhyan required? Because, in this world, there are problems.
Seva dhyan means, when the problems come, how will I deal with them all? satatam kirtayanto ma yatan tasya dhrudhavratah So, those who are internally so pure that they can constantly glorify Krishna, why do they need to be determined? Why do they need great determination for serving Krishna? Because, even when there is internal purity, there are no internal obstacles. Still, the nature of the world means there will be many external obstacles. And to face those obstacles, we need determination.
So, the point is, if we become irresponsible in the name of devotion, then not only can we create disruption outside with people, but even in the devotee community, there can be disruption. Isn’t it? If somebody has taken a responsible role in a particular place, if somebody’s kitchen is in charge, and food is short, tell them, Prabhu, prasad is less, chant Hare Krishna and get it. See, one aspect of irresponsibility in our service is somebody comes with a practical problem and we give a philosophical solution.
We can give a philosophical perspective, but then we also have to give a practical solution. Till the solution works out, okay, sometimes solutions take time. And till that time, we need a philosophical perspective.
So, if we only start giving philosophical solutions and nothing practical, then what is happening is, we are being irresponsible. If we start off and start doing big projects, you know, somebody says, we’ll start a multi-crore temple. But, you know, we have a small community, where are we going to get funds from? Have faith in Krishna.
Don’t be a doubter. That is not doubt, that is being responsible. Prabhupada started the temples in Vrindavan and Mayapuram.
He knew that these are already religious places, and we are new. It’s unlikely that people are going to give donations at that time. And our movement is also new.
So, we are getting funds for construction, but Prabhupada is a long-term machine. So, Prabhupada, while building the temple itself, created MVT. So, we will have places which are more like residential places, like hotels, restaurants, where people can come and stay, and that would be source of revenue for the temples.
So, in the name of faith, Prabhupada was not irresponsible. So, one aspect of being responsible is that when somebody comes to us with practical problems, then what we need to give them is we can give them a philosophical perspective. Okay, this particular thing is happening over here.
It’s very disturbing, very much. How do I make sense of it? Philosophical perspective is important, but along with that there has to be practical solutions. So, in that way, what will happen is we will ensure that there is not much disruption.
Say, if somebody is being troubled by some other devotee, and that devotee is domineering, is creating a lot of trouble, then that devotee has to be told, or maybe that devotee has to be given a service which is a different service. Say, suppose somebody is short-tempered. Now, some devotees may have anger issues from the past, and their anger may have gone down, but still, it may be above the acceptable level of anger.
So, now, if somebody is very short-tempered, and you put them in charge of devotee care, now, and devotees come and come, oh, this devotee spoke so harshly to me, this devotee did this, and we tell that devotee, Trunada, please sunichi, So, now, at that time, we have to take some practical action. We don’t want to condemn that devotee, that everybody is conditioning, but that devotee needs to be given some other service. Isn’t it? If some devotee has too much attachment to Prasadam, then maybe that devotee should not be in charge of Mahaprasad.
Otherwise, there will be no Mahaprasad left for the guests. So, sometimes, practical things also have to be done. Now, so, how is it related to irresponsible? If somebody is in a responsible position and they feel that, I don’t want to deal with any problems.
Okay, this person is creating problems, but you don’t create a problem for me, you just want to tolerate. Tolerance is important, but tolerance doesn’t mean that wrongs keep going on and let them go on. So, being responsible means that if we take a position, then whatever challenges come with that position, we need to be ready to take up those challenges and deal with those problems and come up with reasonable solutions.
So, otherwise, even in the devotee community, there can be disruption. Now, why is this happening? Why is this happening? Many people, many times, this has happened in America, I don’t think it has happened in India till now. What has happened is, in India, we already have so many devotees that if some devotees go away, nobody even notices.
People don’t care. In America, we don’t have so many devotees. So, they did a survey of many people who left Bhakti and asked what were the reasons? And generally, the insider view is they are insincere.
They couldn’t follow the standards and that’s why they left. But the actual survey, what it showed was that they felt we were dealt badly with by devotees. That some devotees dealt badly with us and others just didn’t care for us.
That’s why we felt that we don’t want to belong to this community. So, now when actually the leaders were talked with, the leaders thought that we are telling you just to learn philosophy, you know. You all have to become tolerant.
But, that’s not the only part of the philosophy. There are many other parts of the philosophy. Krishna did not tell Arjuna, Oh, Kauravas have done so many atrocities to you.
I told you Mataraskar Shastra, you can’t tolerate. No. There are three times when changes have to be made.
So, otherwise, even within the devotee community, there can be disruption. But, if you actually understand Shastra and follow Shastra, then we will act in such a way that we will take responsibility. If we can’t take responsibility, we will gracefully step away from the responsibility and let somebody else take up the responsibility who can actually deal with the issues.
And that way, the disruption in the devotee community can be minimized. Now, still this world is going to be Lukkhalai and we can’t avoid that. So, never is it that there will be no problems.
But, the distress in the world there is some level of unavoidable distress. And there is avoidable distress. Or, let’s not use the word, slightly different There is irreducible distress.
Say, for example, birth, old age, disease, death. This is irreducible distress. But, there is reducible distress.
This comes from the Trivedhatapa. The Adhyatmik, Adhibhautik, Adhidaidik. We can decrease the distress.
Now, if we learn to eat more healthy food, the Adhyatmik klesh can be decreased. It cannot go away. We will all have some diseases.
If we all learn to care for each other, become more sensitive, the Adhibhautik klesh will be decreased. If we take proper precautions, nature will always have its problems. But, we can minimize the Adhyatmik klesh.
So, it is our responsibility. We have to learn to tolerate. There will always be some unavoidable distress.
But, this avoidable distress, it is our responsibility to deal with this, to reduce it. Now, of course, it is our tolerance to accept it, to live with it. So, but to say that, to consider there are two extremes.
To consider all distress to be irreducible. Every problem comes this is the nature of the material world. You know, if some guest comes to our house and they say, Prabhu, I am feeling cold.
What to do? This world is dukkha le. Well, I don’t know if this world is dukkha le, your house is dukkha le. It is avoidable distress.
We should avoid it. So, on the other hand, all distress is reducible. You can come to a utopia where there will be no problems in our life.
That is not going to happen. When people have this idea that all distress is reducible, they actually multiply the distress. No.
When I was in Canada, I stayed at one devotee’s home. The husband is a marketing agent for a big company. But he also is a priest.
He has learnt shlokas and he does marriage ceremonies. And his wife is an attorney. She is in family law.
Now family law is just a polite word for divorce. You know, that is the primary thing. We are the real power couple.
You know, people come to him to get married, they come to me to get separated. People come for utterly trivial reasons. In the West, there is this whole policy called no-fault divorce.
That is, you don’t have to give any reason. They just incompatible. And no fault of anyone.
If we take a phone contract, 6 months, I want to be with this company. And in some liberal countries, it is easier to get out of a marriage than it is to get out of a phone contract. That’s how easy they have made it.
It’s terrible. So anyway, sometimes people come with such strange ideas. So, reasons for divorce.
One woman had come, Canadian woman, she said that I know, okay, I want to separate. What is the reason? And she said, My husband and I can’t agree on the AC temperature in our home. Now, there are so many people who don’t have AC in their home, there are so many people who don’t even have a home.
Now, she said, really, you want that? This is the reason? No, actually, I believe that he is my dream partner. He is my Mr. Right. And if he were my soulmate, then our body temperature should be similar.
Now, of course, there can always be the reality that there may be many other reasons, but the fact that somebody thinks such a frivolous reason is an acceptable reason. So, there are no perfect situations in the world. There are no perfect things in the world.
So, if we accept that all problems will be reducible, so we need to tolerate some problems, tolerate what is irreducible, but we need to mitigate what is reducible. And be responsible means to know, what is it that I need to tolerate, and what is it that I should mitigate. Mitigate means counter-correct.
So, in this way, devotion, we can prevent unnecessary disproportion and we can move steadily and smoothly towards Krishna through the practice of Ayurveda. So, I’ll summarize what I discussed. Broadly, we talked about disruptive devotion and how it can be prevented.
So, three parts. What is the first part? It can be irrational, especially in our approach with God. And there I talked about in religion in general, there could be claims of faith healing and there could be radicalism.
So, when people send their intelligence on exile and in the Vedic tradition, there is this whole, say me God, isn’t it? I am God. And the result of that is what? There is no higher taste. Because worshipping some so-called God is only with higher taste.
And that’s why we have this curious phenomenon that religion is increasing in India, but materialism is also increasing. Then we talked within the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition itself, and we talked about Sahajiyaism. So, in Sahajiyaism, I talked about three things.
First is that somebody has some supernatural experiences. Somebody says, I saw Krishna winking at me. Krishna came in my dream.
Then we have to evaluate. If it’s favorable, it’s okay, but keep it private. Don’t publicize it.
If it’s unfavorable, that means we start using it to say that I am a special devotee, therefore I don’t need to practice Bhakti. Normal rules. That’s not good.
Then there is imitation of ecstatic symptoms. Where somebody claims to have certain things, so, by which they can get prestige in society. We talked about this.
Pretence of pregnancy. That a woman may do that just to get some attention and affection. And then lastly, we talked about Rascal Neela.
Where somebody misuses the idea of Avesh. Then, I talked about the second part. Insensitivity.
So, when there is insensitivity, what happens is, we disturb and alienate people. Like somebody is here and we are here. So, we try to get them to go all the way up.
But instead, they can’t and they go further down. So, we don’t want to be extremist. We need to create step-by-step path by that they can gradually move upwards.
So, being sensitive means understanding their level and guiding them according to their level. So, we talked about how speech needs to be both sensitive at one side and sensible on the other side. So, we discussed about how it needs to be non-agitating and pleasing.
Anudvega Karam and Priyam. And similarly, it needs to be Vitam, helpful and then truthful. So, this way what will happen is, if we go towards one extreme, we will become headless.
Go to the other extreme, we will become heartless. And by this, potential devotees may go away. Even devotees themselves may feel troubled by insensitivity.
And lastly, we talked about irresponsible. Irresponsible with respect to our responsibility. I talked about the difference between renunciation and frustration.
It is, they are significantly different. The desire is there, but the availability is not there. That is frustration.
Whereas, renunciation where the ability, availability is there, but desire is not there. Desire and availability, we talked about it. And then So, with respect to renunciation, it is something which has to come gradually and then we will talk about how Bhakti is not so much about giving up responsibility, but it is about taking up higher responsibility.
So, taking up higher responsibility means that we take up the responsibility to serve Krishna. And then, responsibility in our service. We talked about how? If a practical problem comes up, then what is required? Yes, we can give a philosophical perspective, but also we have to give a practical solution to it.
Otherwise, if you are only going to give a philosophical perspective, then that is also okay, but then we should not be in the responsible position. So, in this way, we can ensure that our devotion doesn’t become unnecessary destructive. We talked about distress.
There is irreducible distress and that needs to be tolerated. But there is reducible distress and that needs to be mitigated. Thank you very much.
Hare Krishna. Thank you for the wonderful blockbuster session. I have two questions.
So, first question is we see, as you were saying, sensitive in preaching and we see how in the western world Prabhupada preached in the beginning when Prabhupada disciples were preaching now many Indian devotees who are very close to us also, they are going travelling and you have been travelling since last 10 years. Now, what we can expect or hope that how things can work in America, whether it is going to really create some revolution there. Our devotees from India were preaching.
Second question is about your saying about Tulsi Gabbard’s spiritual master. He was a part of ISKCON now. So, what special thing he did compared to our ISKCON? Because in ISKCON also we are preaching we are going out of the way and what was so special about his preaching strategies? Both these questions are meant to get me into trouble.
This is not true devotion. This is not true devotion. Two things, basically there is a fundamental difference between the culture of the west and the culture of the east.
Eastern culture, it is not just India but China also, Russia also it is generally much more horizontal. There is authority and there is a subordinate. So, authority figure is respected.
In the west, it is much more horizontal. There is still authority is there but it is not that much horizontal. It is much more horizontal.
It is a much more egalitarian culture. So, now when people came at the time 1960s in the west also the culture was significantly hierarchical at that time. So, many of them grew up in families where there was a significant level of discipline and authority was there.
But over a period of time, they found that the authority was untrustworthy. They were not having standard integrity. They would go off their talk for various reasons.
So, they rejected the authority. But when they found Sri Prabhupada with impeccable integrity then they were able to subordinate themselves. But now the people who are coming to us they are born in 2000 or whatever 1980, 1990, there are millennials there are zoomers and all those generations are there.
But those people have grown up in a very egalitarian way. So, a very instructive approach does not work for them. So, they get alienated very quickly by that.
And now, how much is the hierarchy integral to Bhakti? That is a question that needs, that requires deliberation. There are different opinions about it. At one level we will say, yes, we need the mercy of the spiritual master.
But we have within our tradition also say, examples of Naraguni and Bhumaraj. Naraguni gave a particular instruction. I said, just go back home.
Bhumaraj said, I can’t do this. And Naraguni said, you don’t know who I am? I am the son of Brahma. I am I am the guru of such great people.
You obey me. They negotiated this. Look, if you can’t do this, then do this.
And so, it’s not just in the traditions only vertical. If there are examples of say, Ramacharya telling some of his disciples, just leave everything. Prabhupada telling his disciples to go to the go to London or go somewhere else and then like that.
But there are examples. Tamal Krishna Maharaj wanted to go and he got completely fried up with management in India. In Mumbai.
Nothing was moving forward. He said, Prabhupada, I want to preach. So, he went to America.
Prabhupada didn’t want him to go to America. But he said, Prabhupada, I can’t do this. And he almost resisted.
Prabhupada reluctantly allowed him. But then Radhamundra Vaspati came out of that. So, he negotiated with the spiritual master.
And there is a letter of Prabhupada in 1975. He writes to one of his senior disciples. He said that What is it? Now that you are a senior person, I cannot give you instructions.
I can only give you suggestions. So, there are different modes. So, that is open to question.
But in India, the way Bhakti has been presented, and still we have that hierarchical culture. So, this mode of operation works. Now, of course, in India also, there is a large number of people who do not come because we are too hierarchical.
But India’s population is so high that even if those people are not coming, there are still many people coming. So, now, in the West, our attempts to reach to people have been tough. But there will always be exceptions.
There are people who may be already very spiritually evolved, just born in that country for some reason and they just, in spite of whatever upbringing, they are still taking Bhakta Bhakti. That is possible. But those will be rare.
So, right now, Western outreach is a big challenge. There are some levels of success. Different people are trying different things and that’s how some of us are doing yoga.
Some people are reaching through yoga. Some are going more through mindfulness and retreats and things like that. So, more like a soft landing for people to come to Bhakti.
Right now, the problem is three-fold for us. Basically, in the West, one problem is there are no or very few Western devotees. Then, there is another problem is there are few full-time devotees.
Because, now there are mostly Indians over there and the Indians who go to America are very successful, very career-oriented that’s how they crack through all the competition and go there. But they are not interested in becoming full-time devotees. Very few of them.
So, we have temples which were built when we had lots of devotees and now, we don’t have people to take care of those temples. There are some temples where over the morning program there are more deities than there are devotees. It’s unfortunate.
But, it happens. So, we have very few devotees over there. So, especially full-time devotees.
The Indians who are becoming devotees they are very dedicated in their own way. But, what has happened is that we when we were largely serving the counterculture, we took temples or we took land we got temples in the place where there was competition on the counterculture. But often now, those areas have become high-crime areas and Indians don’t want to take their families over there or if they go, you don’t want to go at 4 o’clock in the morning.
So, the location is not nice. So, that’s why there is a huge shortage of devotees over there. Many times, Indian Indians go there as paid pujaris.
Many people from Mayapur go there. And then, there is a whole place where the pujaris who go there, they stay there for some time till they get a green card. After they get a green card, then they leave the pujari service and they get married to someone and they take up jobs.
There is one place called New Orleans where it’s like you go to anywhere, a typical cab driver is a devotee. The typical petrol pump person is a devotee. They are all people who have gone to the temple as employees and they have left.
So, basically full-time devotees it’s difficult to have them over there. And the third issue over there right now is related to the second one only, but that it is that you could say that there is a lack of guidance. Because what happens, there are many first generation Prabhupada disciples.
First generation Prabhupada disciples are there but they have become relatively old and most of the devotees who are coming to the temples they are rehearsers. Now the Prabhupada disciples might have been rehearsers but they lived a missionary life. Missionary life means that they never had careers they never had like responsible, successful lives.
So, for them to guide the rehearsal devotees becomes very difficult. So, devotees are inspired in doing things but sometimes they don’t get the guidance that they can look up. They respect the Prabhupada disciples.
And I am talking about all Prabhupada disciples. So, there is a lack of there is almost like a, see imagine if you come to a temple and there is no one say you are 30-35 years old there are number of Prabhupada disciples who are 30-35 years old and everybody and the only preacher who is 75 years old. There is nobody at the age of 50, nobody at the age of 60 nobody at the age of 45, nobody at the age of 75 65 whatever.
So, there is a big gap. So, now at one level visiting preachers have been serving this gap. Now, of course, another thing is that as our movement has come to the next generation, preaching also is a little more rational, little more systematic So, that gap is being served by full-time preaching, by visiting preachers.
Now, our youth preaching that is being planned that is primarily at this stage to address the shortfall of full-time devotees. Full-time devotees are necessarily being brahmacharis they can be grahasthas also but they stay near the temple and they take up responsibility with them. And this is where Radheshampu’s service attitude has been immensely appreciated.
Initially, there was some concern this Indian brahmacharis are going to attack America is gone. So many brahmacharis are coming, what are they coming for? There was a little concern. But recently over 10 years I have been going there, I have become good friends with many of the leaders several of the leaders, some of them were also very careful and most of them were critical.
Radheshampu has said that I want to ensure that every temple has at least 10 to 20 devotees who can take up responsibility in the temples. There are Prabhupada disciples who are 65, 70, 75 One temple where there is a 75 year old Prabhupada disciple and he is doing all the worship of the deity. He is one of the leaders over there and he is very strong that deity should not be served by paid pujaris.
So, paid pujaris can come but he doesn’t want. He shouldn’t be exhausting himself so much. So that service attitude in terms of providing devotees that is something which is very laudable and that is being appreciated by people.
So now this, how are we targeting this? This youth preaching right now is primarily for Indians. There are Indian youth who go from, so we have a lot of experience in reaching out to Indian youth decades of experience our youth preachers have and more or less the same model is being replicated over there for Indians. And the plan is, this has already started bearing results.
There are several temples where there are there are some temples which have already provided some facility for devotees to, devotees who are going to colleges or working like we have our yogas and our youth centre provided in the temple there are people taking up a lot of services so we are very appreciative of that. So at this level, things are moving and that’s moving significantly fast. So it’s the same Indians over there, highly successful now whether they will become full time devotees or not, if the preaching keeps going on, they may go to another place where they get a job but others will come and things will go on so at least the temples will be taken care of and of course they will preach because it’s not just taking care of temples one part of taking care of temples is preaching also.
Now, with respect to western devotees, it’s still a significant challenge. So there are the likelihood of how things may work is that those people who have stayed some years in America maybe they went for PhD there, their 5 years, 10 years, they also get somewhat more familiarised with the American culture. So one will so they may eventually be able to connect with Americans.
Now we have a few Americans coming even now there will always be exceptions who will come but so it’s going to happen gradually and many of you may have heard of this phenomenon called ABCD ABCD is basically American Born Confused Desi So those kids those kids, the devotee kids are Indian kids who were born in America they say they are like coconuts coconuts means brown from outside, white from inside So in terms of skin colour they are brown but in terms of the upbringing and the culture, they are quite Americanised So interestingly many of them are appreciative of Bhakti they may not be practising Bhakti at the same level of commitment as initiated devotees or whatever but they are appreciative of, they want to practise, they want to share in their own way so one hope for our movement is that these they can act as a bridge in London this is happening to some extent they are also getting a lot of Indians but they are also getting a lot of Indians who were born and brought up in London and slowly they are also attracting local people so I would say it’s going to take it’s going to take a few years for things to happen but the second level in terms of providing devotees for taking care of temple and for reaching out for doing some outreach some college outreach as well as temple responsibilities that has already been spectacularly successful there is a lot more that needs to be done but it’s a very systematic plan and I think overall when boundaries are there there is concern that say if a more vertical kind of preaching may alienate people who need a more horizontal approach so there is some discussion about the demarcation of boundaries and if western people come through our youth outreach should we be cultivating them should some western devotees be cultivating them and on what basis can that be decided so there are discussions going on but western outreach can also happen over a period of time and at this stage it’s more that we want to talk those who go to America are among the most talented and dedicated Indians if they become devotees they can do extraordinary amount of work it’s interesting in America Indians are the wealthiest minority among Indians they use the word Indians some Muslims are also there but mostly Hindus and in the American political circles Indians are considered the model minority model minority means that if all immigrants to America were like Indians America would be spectacularly successful America would not have any problems of harmony or integration or whatever so Indians are law abiding, tax paying family responsibility taking and so Indians are highly successful and that’s because they are talented, because they are dedicated and they become devotees then that itself each one of them can do a lot of work and who knows what Krishna’s plan is may be some of those will eventually lead to a significant rejuvenation in western outreach also western outreach can be outreach to westerners or it can be outreach in the west so right now it is a western outreach what we are doing is outreach in the west but it’s primarily to Indians but it’s a part of a multi-stage plan so it will happen with time now the second question is a bit complex about what I have not really studied Surya Saravanan I met, there are couple of his followers whom I met and everywhere there is problem so this particular devotee he got burned up Surya Saravanan is no longer here he got burned by some of his followers and then he was like he was not in that group because he had heard so much criticism of his school he didn’t want to go to his school and somehow he heard my classes online and whenever I go to Salt Lake City he comes and meets me so very intelligent person he is a yoga teacher and he is cultivating his own group but broadly I feel that when devotees wanted to try certain things they gave them space to try those things so the vertical and the horizontal one more horizontal kind of outreach what would that mean there is a conversation between Prabhupada and Allen Ginsberg where Allen Ginsberg Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare so basically there are some cultural reservations that people have so now culture can mean food culture can refer to dress culture can refer to language so what happens is if you see is Krishna Bhakti dependent on a particular culture or is it transmitted to culture that means does one have to adopt a particular culture to reach Krishna or can Krishna be reached from whatever culture that is there so it’s not an easy question to answer if you see that when Chetan Mahaprabhu’s followers went to Manipuri the Manipuri Gaudiya Vaishnavas did not become Bengali Gaudiya Vaishnavas they still had their Manipuri culture they wear Manipuri dresses, they cook Manipuri food they have Manipuri dance forms of devotion and they are practicing Bhakti in India Ram Bhakti is different in different parts of the country so now we could say but still it is Indian culture so I think that’s the question so in ISKCON the prevalent idea was that the cultural is the way to the spiritual adopting a particular kind of dress adopting a particular way of you know hair or beard or tilak or whatever all these are integral even essential to Bhakti now with respect to food more or less we have accepted the idea that it’s universal it’s not that everybody in ISKCON is eating Bengali food many of us western culture has entered into our lives through ISKCON I had never heard of Chowmein before I came to ISKCON and nobody is having any problems with that so with respect to food it seems to be culturally more inclusive with respect to dress, with respect to language so there are concerns so basically what he did was he did not emphasize so much on particular dress for westerners it’s a cultural curiosity Maharashtra Festival of India and many women line up to wear sarees it’s just like experience but from their cultural curiosity to cultural commitment that’s a huge deal you wear a saree everyday that is too much and in some ways women have a little more license but in the west for a man to wear a dhoti the prominent image that comes in a western mind when they see somebody wearing a dhoti this is an oversized diaper so it just seems weird for people so basically he did some adjustments by which it did not seem so foreign for people so he was successful to some extent rather than he being successful it was more that we lost a lot of devotees not so much that she made a lot of devotees rather people who came to us went to Gaudiya Mahat so more things happened but I think devotees are exploring and trying various things and things are being successful to yoga audiences we are reaching a lot of people there is Raghunath Prabhu and Kaustubh Prabhu they have this podcast called Wisdom of the Sages and it’s amazing everyday they have several hundreds and hundreds of people hearing the podcast thousands of downloads and in the spirituality section eastern spirituality section they are consistently among the top 5 podcasters and they are presenting they take Bhagavatam they take Prabhupada’s purports they select which purports to emphasize on but it’s reaching they are reaching so things are changing it will take time but it will happen thank you should we stop ok what’s the time 5-10 minutes ok there are a lot of questions sorry I took a lot of time for your question where is the mic yeah in this class you were explaining about in the name of devotion we should not lose our stop using our so basically many times when you too much question that is not so much appreciated once you become a devotee it’s not so much appreciated and so many times if your nature is like I got the question generally it is a problem I also faced when I was going some devotee told me Chaitanya Charan I think you have forgotten we are following Bhakti Marga not Gyan Marga so I was initially discouraged but I said the Marga of my question is never going to come to you so then I found like minded devotees so yes in general the devotee community questions are not appreciated but that does not mean no devotees will be appreciated it is like minded devotees we have to find out if the devotees are analytical and it applies in every field some devotees may be very interested in kirtan and sometimes when they sing also their kirtan is not participative it is performative they sing in such a complicated tune that you can be impressed but you cannot sing only now they may be very interested in kirtan they may learn lot of technicalities about kirtan but they don’t bring that to everyone everybody is not interested in that so if we have questions try to find out like minded devotees and talk with them so we have to be intelligent about whom to ask questions my extended question is basically when you are too much brainy our faith on the seniors develops based on how we get the answers and what is the mood of the kids so basically sorry I forgot the question I just want to answer some more questions there will always be sooner or later we have to learn to separate spiritual advancement from material competence in any field somebody is very good at managing and they have a senior under whom they are working that person is not good at managing the only way they will be able to maintain that respect is to separate their material competence from their spiritual advancement you know I respect this person he is dedicated many years of service but they may not be materially competent so like that same way there are many non-intellectual devotees whom I respect very much but that doesn’t mean I want to sit and hear their classes necessarily I respect them as individuals but I don’t get any philosophical nourishment from their classes so if it’s a part of some community or social obligation I may hear but I won’t go out of the way to hear their classes so we should be able to respect people based on either their spiritual advancement or even just their spiritual dedication but that does not mean that we have to get inspiration in our particular area so somebody may be a better singer than their spiritual master now does that mean they can’t respect their spiritual master because their spiritual master is not that good you see spiritual advancement is separate from competence in a particular field so that way we can maintain our respect for our seniors at the same time we can make sure that our needs are addressed so it’s important that we make sure that our needs are addressed but that does not mean the community’s expectations or community’s standards that is neglected or rejected like I’m not telling you respect them but to commit towards their project and all I’m not so enthusiastic to commit to my senior’s projects and all if I tell you a little insensitively I don’t want to become a free labour for a project because I’m not convinced of the mood and all of that usually I have made a little see in general in our movement it’s not that if you want some space for yourself you will not be given it but generally what happens is there are two things there is freedom or you can say autonomy and there is facilities so these two are generally mutually exclusive if you want facility you won’t get autonomy if you want autonomy you won’t get facility say in it I want to teach Bhagavad Gita in a different way from what is taught normally and nobody is stopping me from teaching it but if I want to do it in the temple the temple may have a particular vision of how Bhagavad Gita is to be taught so if I want the facility I may have to sacrifice the autonomy so I would say that if we don’t feel inspired by their project and we don’t want to serve in their project we can still maintain our respect, we can have autonomy but then if we have autonomy then we can’t expect facility they may not be able to give too much time to us because we are not really doing much service they may not be available for us they may be available to somebody who is engaged in their project so that balance we have to make how much autonomy I want, how much facility I want and as our movement is growing we can also we can candidly talk with our seniors and tell them maybe there is some more intellectual project in which I can use my intelligence I would like to be involved in that project so that culture of lateral transfer has not yet become prominent in our movement but it should become like say somebody is working in India and you know they don’t get along with their team leader now that doesn’t mean the team leader will fire that person you know they say they will have higher authorities and then they will say you cannot work in this team, you work in this team you don’t work in this area, you work in this area so that kind of culture of lateral transfer it is done to some extent by the spiritual master directly or some senior devotee on the level of spiritual master you cannot work here, you can work here but in general Vidigad movement that level of thing has not happened so but if we talk candidly with our spiritual guides and say you know I would like to do this kind of services, there is an opportunity for that then we may get opportunities so you know I was doing college preaching but I was not just intellectually satisfied by doing college preaching so Adi Shankar connected me with senior devotees I started doing editing for various senior vaishnavas that’s when I got introduced to the whole acharya literature, I did editing of many books for Bhanu Maharaj and I did editing of books for other sannyasis that’s how I got introduced to intellectual, more intellectual so if we are, if we express our needs without criticizing the other person for not satisfying our needs so this is my need and I am not minimizing or devaluing but this is my need right now and they can guide us to someone who can satisfy our needs this is all being systematized, that’s why we may have to take a particular initiative till now so that we can do it and we will be able to do it better that means this was like I did not feel like usually problem happens I feel too much guilty of not being conforming to their expectations so I feel like I am dying too much daily because of these guilt I see I am more guilty than all of my friends even who are not devotees because you are in certain atmosphere where everyone is conformities appreciated and obedience is encouraged but you are like, you are basically you told like yesterday you told about like Rajnath Maharaj, he doesn’t instruct you, he gives suggestions you want such kind of reciprocation but when you don’t get and we don’t want to disrespect so we always feel guilty, constantly more than thinking about other things how I can build my career you are just thinking about guilting yourself, I am not able to come to the good of my life it’s a difficult situation see we have to see there is guilt and there is pseudo guilt what do I mean by pseudo guilt basically see if I am here and there is some wrong action say basically some sinful activity or something like that there is wrong doing and then there is Krishna so guilt should come between us and the wrong doing this is guilt but if it comes here it becomes pseudo guilt pseudo guilt means see anything that becomes an obstacle for us in moving towards Krishna that is Maya so guilt can be a good thing if we do something wrong we should feel bad after doing something wrong but guilt can very easily be misplaced I know one devotee in America in New Zealand he is he was born and brought up in a family where they were doing they were cattle rearing and he said when I stopped eating cow flesh I felt guilty as if I am betraying my family for generations this is what we have been doing I stopped participating I felt guilty as that is not a healthy guilt so we have to we don’t have to anything that is discouraging us in our Bhakti we have to find a way to put it aside so sometimes we may not be as surrendered as someone else but that doesn’t make us a bad devotee this is not the way I can grow so then we have to find a way in which we can grow without disrupting the whole system without criticizing or disrupting the whole system so don’t let guilt come in the way vigata viklava ishvara Nila in his prayers says that he initially says that how can I glorify your lord I am born in a demoniac family but then Prabhupada in the sentence word to word translation says giving up all thoughts of my unfitness so I will stop contemplating on how I am unfit so he says I will glorify the lord I will glorify the lord so yes we may be unfit for a particular role or a particular service but that shouldn’t become the focus of our consciousness that may be true but still I want to serve Krishna and with my particular way how can I find a way to serve Krishna so focus on that so when you start focusing on that you will find Krishna will guide radhami buddhi yogamtam it is not that Adi Shankar suggested to me you edit this for Jyotish I suggested I like these classes can I connect with them he says you know you connect them what will you do I said probably I am editing your books I can edit their books also he said that’s a good service he said you should not be just taking their time for your intellectual needs you should be doing some service and I appreciated that point he facilitated my connection we have our needs and if our needs are not being fulfilled we should not be guilty about that guilt can be unfavorable to bhakti effects will we have any other session after this we have to go for another program unfortunately how many questions are there 1,2,3 1,2,3,4 we can talk personally you can ask personally sure yeah you can talk one last question yes go ahead for example I listen only to Prabhupada outside slowly and loudly sometimes the name of loyalty to the founder Acharya become irrational for example I just follow Prabhupada I just take to Prabhupada’s words and those who go to other institutions I condemn them I condemn the God-brothers of Sri Prabhupada so is this loyalty and the second question is you talked about the Gaudiya Vrishnu Sampradaya and the Sahajiyas but we sometimes have this very extreme point that only Bhakti Siddhant says that Prabhupada was the right one and all the other Babajis were Sahajiyas so how right is this so the first question loyalty means this works for me and I will stick to it that is loyalty fanaticism means what works for me is the only thing that can work for anyone what works for me is the only thing that actually works and if anybody is doing anything else that is wrong there is a very significant difference between loyalty and fanaticism so fanaticism is basically projecting our experience on everyone else somebody may get a lot of strength by doing Nirjali Kadashi this is my serious lesson but that does not mean everybody who is not doing Nirjali Kadashi is not a serious dude isn’t it they may get strength by they may eat food they may read more Bhagavatam whatever different Krishna is not a machine Krishna is a person Krishna can reciprocate with different people in different ways and one meaning of if you consider Dharma to mean our conception of how to reach Krishna I have a particular way I am reaching Krishna I think I will reach Krishna but Krishna can be reached in many different ways so we have to be open to that so when loyalty becomes fanatical then it creates unnecessary disruption in society now with respect to other Gaudiya Vaishnavas it depends we have to look at each person not that everybody were Sarajiyas see nobody else set up an institution it is not at the scale of Bhakti Sanskrit now one problem with institution is institution creates standardization and standardization has to be based on objectively measurable parameters and objectively measurable parameters are associated with quantity now Bhakti is about quality it is not just quantity, now quality and quantity they are related it is complex question how exactly they are related but the point is Bhakti Sanskrit because of emphasizing an institution started also uncompetently emphasizing quantitative parameters now those quantitative parameters were not emphasized or met by his brother also in the Gaudiya Vaishnava so they also practice Bhakti, they also continue their Bhakti and they are also Gaudiya Vaishnavas but we need to respect them for that but that does not mean that they are all Sarajiyas but that does not mean that all of them are glorious Vaishnavas we have to see individually so it would be too extreme to say that nobody who was a proper Gaudiya Vaishnava so it is a nuanced understanding neither the extreme of everybody being a Sarajiya, everybody being a Gaudiya Vaishnava we have to see what they are doing and based on that we will decide