Understanding what is our quota in material life – 2

[Bhagavatam class at ISKCON, Denver, USA]

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
So we are continuing the discussion on the topic of understanding what is our quota. Yesterday I discussed about how the material and spiritual aspects of our life, they are like the painkiller and the medicine. The painkillers alone taken in the diseased versions like that people who become obsessed only with material life and neglect the spiritual life, they worsen that material impact, they suffer.
On the other hand, those who campaign against the painkiller, they subject themselves and others to unbearable pain. So those who say that everything, that material life itself should be entirely renounced, they find it very difficult to sustain spiritual growth. And then we discussed about how detachment is a sign of spiritual advancement but that should not be made the sole sign of spiritual advancement because detachment can also result from one’s past karma and some people who can be naturally detached and that detachment, like other opulences of Krishna, results from past karma and that can be used in Krishna’s service, which is wealth, learning, all these can be utilized.
So detachment can be utilized also. Detachment should be used to look undistracted upwards towards Krishna, not look down directly at others. If those who are detached naturally they become proud that they actually may be less Krishna conscious than those who are at a lesser level of detachment but they are helplessly seeking Krishna’s service.
They may be more conscious of Krishna. And today in this verse it is stated that actually one should continue one’s prescribed duties till one is able to feel in the glory of the Supreme God. And the point of the text here is that actually it is not that one’s prescribed duties are unimportant or to be casually neglected.
Now the word prescribed duties can have a specific meaning, say within the Varanashram context, the Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shukla duties are there. But the broad principle over there is the whole purpose of Varanashram was to take care of people’s material side in such a way that spiritual growth is harmonious. So the material life can be taken care of properly.
So basically people’s prescribed duties broadly refer to taking care of our material side. So here yesterday I was asked a question by two devotees about detachment and I said that I will address it in today’s verse because it comes in the purport also that Prabhupada often quotes that we can know how advanced we are by our detachment. He would quote Vasudeva when he would say bhakti-yoga-prayo-yoga, jine tya asha vairagya, jnanam jaya dharma-yoga.
By the practice of bhakti, detachment, vairagya develops and knowledge also develops. Yes, definitely. So my point in saying that was yesterday was detachment should not be seen as the sole parameter of spiritual growth.
There is a standard error in logic which is called assuming the antecedent. Assuming the antecedent means say if A then B. That is the case. If it rained yesterday night then my lawn will be wet today.
Now if A then B, this is a causal connection if you know. But if somebody infers from that B, therefore A. My lawn is wet today, therefore it must have rained yesterday. That is not necessary.
It could be that there might be leakage in the water tank, some water supply and from there the water has seeped out. It could be that somebody spilled, throw water over there. Now unless we know that B is the only cause of A, we cannot presume that by the existence of B, A must have occurred.
That is a guess. It is not a necessity. So same way, bhakti will lead to renunciation.
In the practice of bhakti we lead to detachment. That is A, if A then B. But that does not mean because B, therefore A has to be present. Because there is detachment, therefore bhakti has to be present.
So the point is that by our practice of bhakti, we will naturally become detached from material things. But when we think that detachment alone is a sign of our spiritual advancement, then we neglect the fact that detachment is just one aspect of our life. It is important for a devotee.
A devotee also requires a soft heart. A devotee is also required to be sensitive. A devotee has to have a heart which melts in love for Krishna and melts in a mood of loving service attitude in connection with things related to Krishna.
So therefore detachment is definitely one important sign of spiritual advancement. But when it is taken out and made the only sign, then it becomes problematic. In the 18th chapter, Krishna talks about knowledge within three forms of material nature.
And there he talks about knowledge in the mode of ignorance. Now normally we consider knowledge and ignorance to be opposite things. But we are talking about knowledge in the mode of ignorance.
That means knowledge that is ignorant of the larger reality. Very important to Krishna is So when one thinks of one thing to be everything, that without considering One does not consider the whole, the truth, the whole picture. One knows only very little.
That one makes one thing into everything that is indicative of knowledge in the mode of ignorance. So that one thing can be. The materialistic people make material success, material prosperity as the sign of happiness.
As the proof that somebody is successful and happy in life. Now yes, material side is one part of it. But in materialistic culture, people’s self-worth is reduced to their net worth.
Now you are how much you earn. Now how much a person earns is one part of their life. Important part.
But that doesn’t define them. So in materialistic society, people take one aspect of life, say material prosperity, material wealth, material pain, material beauty, material pleasure. And they make that into everything.
Krishna talks about this earlier also in 16th chapter. When he says materialistic people think that In 16.8 he says materialistic people think that apart from sense enjoyment, what other thing is the purpose of life? This is the purpose of life. So one thing is made into everything.
So now in material life, we make material wealth or material enjoyment, that is one thing into everything. Now this is because of the influence of the mode of influence. When we come to spiritual life, it is not that the modes immediately disappear.
That influence may still be there. And when that influence is there, what happens is, in spiritual life, we make one thing into everything. And that means, we think that actually, if the detachment is the sign of spiritual advancement.
Those who are detached, they are advanced. And those who are attached, they are good for nothing. They are good for nothing.
If I am attached, I am great. If I am detached, I am great. If I am attached, I am useless.
Now this is again, we are taking one thing and making it into everything. And this sort of attitude can have negative effect in both ways. One way is that the way we perceive others, we can become very judgmental about others.
And we may start thinking, this person is attached, nothing good, not very advanced. This person is detached or very advanced. But advancing the spiritual advancement is a subtle thing.
And we are not meant to judge others. We need to discriminate and discern who to associate with. But that is based on who inspired us the most.
We offer respect according to the proper etiquettes. But we are not meant to judge others in a judgmental way, especially. So, once I was in in Raghav Gyan Mandir in Mumbai.
And there was a festival that I had come for Prasad downstairs in the kitchen. And I was talking to some people after the program. So I came a little late.
And when I came, I saw that there was a bucket of sweet. It was empty. So I felt a little bad.
I won’t get any sweet. And then, there was another senior devotee who was sitting on the opposite side. And I saw his plate.
He had had sweet and he finished his sweet. And then suddenly, I heard him say, Is there sweet? Is there sweet? And not just one server, second server, third server. Asking everyone, is there sweet? And then, I was feeling irritated.
Almost offensive, what is this? He already had one helping of sweet. So many people do not get any helping at all. He was much more senior to me.
So I thought, you should be detached. Why are you doing this? And he was asking everyone. One person said, no, there is no sweet.
He asked the second person, third person. And then, finally, one devotee, often when devotees serve Prasad, they also make their plates in advance. So one devotee brought his own plate.
And from his plate, he was giving sweet to everyone. This is the height of shamelessness. And then, as he was about to serve it, he said, no, not for me.
He pointed to me. He did not get sweet. He gave it to me.
So, that devotee was asking sweet for me, not for him. Not for himself. Now, if that last incident had not happened, that devotee had not brought his own plate, then I would never have known.
Why does devotee so and so, and he should be asking for sweet. So the point is, that he was asking for a second helping of sweet. So he is so attached.
First of all, how much sweet one needs is an insignificant part of one’s overall consciousness. How much one devotee has to give. But then, when we have these conceptions, okay, one who eats sweet is attached.
One who does not eat sweet is detached. Then, we can make so many judgments which actually are not just misleading, they can also be offensive. So, for us, when we judge others, if we make detachment as a sole parameter for thinking who is advanced and who is not advanced, we can make a lot of misunderstandings.
We can even become offensive. Conversely, in our own case, the same competitive mentality that fuels material life, competitive mentality What do you mean? I want this much, you want this much. I have this much big house.
I have this big house. Now, that competitive mentality is there very much in material existence. And sometimes, we will bring that competitive mentality into spiritual life also.
Mahishla Brahmapada encouraged it when it was constructed. That means, encourage devotees to distribute more and more books. And, there were different devotees who would say, this much goes, this much goes, this temple distributed this many, this temple distributed this many.
Now, the idea here was that everybody should distribute more books. But, again, Mahishla Brahmapada’s intention was transcendental. But, often, those who are executing that are not transcendental.
Sometimes, we have had instances of not constructive competition, but destructive competition. So, if a temple, there are two devotees, two groups of devotees going on bus park. Now, one group of devotees, they want to distribute more books.
So, just before, early in the morning, this group wakes up and punctures the bus of Dandarpad. They had to repair the puncture. And then, it takes a lot of time, and they get to distribute more books.
Now, we were laughing. This is so childish. But, when, again, Yathu Krishnavan Ekasmi The one thing, oh, I want to become the number one distributor.
And, that becomes bigger, that goal becomes bigger than the goal of sharing Krishna’s message. So, just like this competitive mentality can become destructive, similarly, we may become competitive over our emancipation. This person is so enraged.
I am so enraged. And, the whole, it can become very destructive. So, okay, this person will fast with water.
I will fast with water. We can fast with water, that’s one thing. If we can’t fast, that’s fine.
The important thing is to serve Krishna. Now, if we are fasting with water, we are fasting without water, and then we go to the kitchen, and we see who is eating what. This person is so enraged.
This person is hopeless. This person is enraged. What is happening then? Now, our body is fasting, but our ego is feasting.
Our ego is feasting. So, actually, it’s not really an attachment. So, the whole purpose of fasting is to get the thoughts of food and get them fixed on Krishna.
So, if we are thinking about food, one way to think about food is, Oh, I will eat this, I will eat that, I will eat that. The other way we think of food is, Oh, who is eating what? He is eating this. She is eating that.
They are eating that. Well, we are food conscious. We are not Krishna conscious.
So, when we make detachment as too important in our spiritual life, then we become more conscious of detachment and less conscious of Krishna. So, pride can be one result. Judgmental mentality, pride can be one result.
Another result can be disheartenment, discouragement, because we may find that some other devotees are more detached than us. Now, yes, we have all the souls who have gone through many lifetimes and they have been more spiritually evolved than us or they may have lived a more sattvic life than us in a previous life or in this life or in the hereafter. And that’s why detachment is more natural for them.
But when we start thinking, Oh, I am also detached and we start feeling humility is different from self-pity. Humility is that which enables us to get our consciousness of ourselves. Humility essentially means I am not all that important.
Krishna is important. Krishna’s service is important. So, let me stop thinking about myself and start thinking of Krishna.
So, self-pity means, Oh, I can’t do this. I can’t do that. I am incompetent in this.
I am hopeless in that. And we sit here feeling sorry for ourselves. So, in self-pity, the focus of our consciousness is the self itself.
In bhakti, we say that we should feel that we have the songs of great Vaishnavacharyas who say how fallen I am. But then, that is a sentiment which they express in their songs. If we look at Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s life, it is not that most of his life he is thinking, Oh, I am so fallen.
That disposition is there. But in terms of action, he is doing activities. He is writing books.
He is discussing with scholars. He is reading and critiquing the contemporary literature of his times. He is busy in serving Krishna.
So, when we become, when we start thinking too much about ourselves, then we succumb to self-pity. If we have made detachment the sole standard, the sole parameter of spiritual advancement and we find ourselves falling short. That’s standard.
So, instead of becoming, instead of staying hopeful devotees of Krishna, we become hopeless devotees of renunciation. We become hopeless. Oh, I want to be detached but I can’t be detached.
This matters so much. The important thing is, we need to practice bhakti. So, even if our attachments are holding on to us, we can still hold on to Krishna.
We sometimes think that these two are mutually exclusive. Because my attachments are holding on to me, so I can’t hold on to Krishna. No.
Even if our attachments are holding on to us, we can still hold on to Krishna. How does that work out? If we consider the graph of our consciousness, say, x is the level of consciousness and y is the time. Then, we may see that even whatever we are attached to, the desires for that shoot up periodically.
So, if somebody is an alcoholic, they may have a nagging desire for alcohol all the time. But sometimes that craving shoots up. And the same principle applies to any attachment that we have.
Now, when the desire shoots up, at that time, it may be very difficult to resist. And at that time, we may succumb. At that time, we may succumb.
And after that, what happens? If we have got too much, too attached to the center, then because we succumbed at that time, we keep beating ourselves. Why did I do that? Why did I do that? Why did I do that? And as this goes on, goes on, sometimes we are disheartened, in self-pity, self-flagellation, we are not taking shelter of Krishna much, just beating ourselves up. And that time passes, and again the next fight comes.
Next time, the desire shoots up. The desire will keep shooting up periodically. And next time the desire shoots up, again we succumb.
And again we beat ourselves up. Now, if we see, actually, in the intermediate period between when the desire shoots up, at that time we could have been Krishna conscious. We could have served Krishna.
We could have remembered Krishna. We could have prayed to Krishna. We could have engaged ourselves in constructive activities.
But what happened is at that time we were just wallowing in self-pity. So initially, the mind impels us with the strong desire. Come on, do it, do it, do it, do it now.
And we just can’t resist it at that time. But the same mind, the mind is such a dangerous, deceptive creature, it plays a deadly double role. First, it makes us a criminal.
And then it becomes a judge who punishes the criminal. First the mind says, come on, do it. And then the same mind, why did you do it? Won’t you learn anything any day? What kind of fool are you? So many times you have heard the same thing.
So many times you have experienced the same thing. You are a fool. You are useless.
Now, we may think it is guilt. But actually, I have a full seminar on guilt. But I just want to share briefly over here.
This is some sin. This is the soul. And this is Krishna.
So guilt is that which comes between the soul and Krishna. Guilt is meant to come over here, between us and the wrong mind. But when the mind is beating as a the mind’s beating is actually pseudo guilt.
And that pseudo guilt comes between us and Krishna. If you look at the Vaishnav songs of humility and self-condemnation, the end is a wholeheartedly dictated from Krishna. In our case, when we are lost.
I am so foolish. I am so stupid. I am so useless.
The thing is, I, I, I and there is Krishna consciousness. So what has happened? The mind first pulled us in this direction and then, that means it was here and it pulled us in this direction. It pulled us towards the wrong way.
And then the same mind comes and stands over here. And it stops us from going towards Krishna. So in this way, in both cases, we remain mind conscious and we never become Krishna conscious.
So when detachment is the center of our bhakti, the inability to be detached, it bogs us so much that we can’t be Krishna conscious when we could be Krishna conscious. Okay, when the spikes, when the desires shoot up, at that time it will be very difficult for us to remember Krishna. But when the desires are not that higher, at that time we can remember Krishna.
But we don’t. Because we are attachment centered and we just let the mind lead us on. So what I said is that even if our attachments hold on to us, that means, the attachments come and the desires shoot up periodically.
Still we can hold on to Krishna. That means, in the intermediate period, between the times when the desires are shooting up, in between that time, we can practice bhakti. We can keep holding on to Krishna.
And by holding on to Krishna, what happens is, we gradually become elevated. The standard metaphor for anyone who has fallen in the material existence is like a person who has fallen in a well. Now, say, the person has fallen in a well and there is somebody from outside there and pulling this person out.
And maybe there is someone inside the well who is catching hold and pulling them down. Now, sometimes that person who is pulling from down, that person lets go or breaks free from that person. He starts rising up.
That person is holding us from above. And that person is trying to pull us from above. And suddenly the person from below catches him and starts pulling down.
The person from below is holding us, is pulling us. But that does not necessarily mean that we have to let go of the person who is holding us above. No, we can still hold on to the person above while the person below is pulling us.
Maybe we will be pulled down a little bit. But we don’t have to let go of the person who is holding us below. Of the rope that is holding us from above.
So, we will be pulled way down but still we can hold on to them. And eventually, as the person below’s grip loosens, strength loosens, we can rise up again. But if we just let go of the rope, then what happens? Even if the person below loosens the grip, we can’t do much.
Because then, we are not holding on to the rope. So, the person pulling from below is our attachment. We are like the person who is trying to get out of the way.
And the person above or the rope coming from above, that is the process of bhakti. Now, sometimes we may break free from our attachments and practice bhakti wholeheartedly. And that raises our consciousness upwards.
We rise upwards. And then suddenly, we find that the same desire we thought has gone away, it has come back. It starts pulling us down.
It catches us and pulls us down. So, at that time, we may be pulled down a little bit. If that shoots up, something may happen.
But the important thing is we keep holding on to Krishna. As soon as whatever thing happens, immediately start practicing bhakti and move onwards. If we stay Krishna-centered, then gradually that Krishna-centeredness will purify us.
As soon as we start practicing bhakti enthusiastically and wholeheartedly, we become purified. And when we become purified, then the grip of the attachment will loosen. The more we become purified, the shooting up of the desire that happens, the desire won’t shoot up that much.
And they won’t shoot up that frequently. Both in magnitude and frequency, the shooting up of desires will decrease. And then you will be able to practice bhakti more peacefully, more joyfully.
And… Now, continuing with this example of a person in a well. Now, what is… How do we know what is our quota with respect to how much to be material life, how much to be spiritual life? The important thing is we should be able to sustainably practice bhakti. Whatever we are doing, if we are able to do sustainably, it’s not that one day, I sleep for 2 hours at night and the next day I’m sleeping for 25, 24 hours.
No, I sleep for 6 hours, 6.5 hours, 7 hours, 5.5 hours, whatever it is. I’m able to sustainably do it. With respect to food, whatever it is, I do sustainably.
We all have different kinds of desires. And different desires need to be worked out in different ways. So some desires you may just hear and realize, okay, there’s nothing over here.
I don’t have anyone else. So, some of us may hear from our parents that if you drink, those who take drugs, they just lose it. They go crazy.
Drugs are really, really, really strong. You hear that? I don’t know many more than this. Some of us, some people, they may experience it.
Ah, it’s terrible. Why did I do that? And then they give it up. So drugs is another extreme example.
But the point is that we all have different desires. And we can’t wish away our desires. Some desires may go away just by hearing and the conviction that comes through that.
Some desires, they may not go away. And we may have to decide. We cannot go outside the basics of dharma.
We have to follow the principles of dharma, but with dharmic levels of indulgence that are also allowed. So we may decide, okay, this is the level I can practice. This desire is troubling me so much.
When by the indulgence of desire, then after that one can practice. Shri Raukanth writes in the 18th chapter in the 18th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, called He says the purpose of marriage is to make the mind peaceful so that one can practice bhakti. So from the spiritual perspective, the mind is too worked up by certain desires to become peaceful.
Now, it is not that indulgence makes the mind peaceful. It is the process of bhakti that unifies. If indulgence alone were going to make the mind peaceful, then all the people would be detached.
They are indulging so much. They may become frustrated sometime, but afterwards again the desires come and again they indulge it. So it is not the indulgence that unifies.
It is the practice of bhakti that unifies. So within a devotee’s life, there may be some type of indulgence that is necessary so that the mind gets it. And while allowing that the devotee’s focus is the practice of bhakti, we keep practicing bhakti and some desire distracts us too much.
So then, we focus on the practice of bhakti, but we deal with the desire inappropriately. Sometimes by satisfying a particular desire, we realize there is nothing great about it. Nothing great about it.
And then we move onwards. So, another thing is that, I conclude with this point, that ultimately we don’t have to when we are practicing bhakti, we don’t have to very rigidly separate the material and the spiritual. Because what we call as material is also in zero nutritional sense.
So if somebody has some interest, somebody has some talent, somebody has some capacity, somebody has the shrewd intelligence to earn a lot of money. See, they are Vaishya. They are Vaishnavas now, but by their mentality they are Vaishyas.
Like a Vaishya is told, don’t earn money. We will cash money. It’s unbearable for them.
They just can’t do it. It’s like telling a Brahmana, don’t read books. It’s not going to work.
It’s just not going to work. So, Vaishya, they have to cash in to earn money. Earn money and use it in Krishna sense.
You tell a Brahmana, don’t read books. It’s not going to work. You tell a Brahmana, ultimately the conclusion of everything is Chandrakrishna.
Just Chandrakrishna is good, but a Brahmana has intelligence and the Brahmana has intellectual needs. Those intellectual needs are not fulfilled. The Brahmana will not be able to sustain the conviction needed to chant Chandrakrishna.
So, the Brahmana needs to study, needs to analyze, needs to understand. And this is not considered in any way normal. So, there is devotional, there is non-devotional, there is anti-devotional.
So, anti-devotional things, we have to give up. Things have been evolved, we have taken up the four elements first. We need to give them up.
But there is Mahajan, which may not be material, but non-devotional, may not be anti-devotional. And although it seems non-devotional, it can also be connected with devotional. So, use the devotional.
So, rather than rigidly getting too caught up in this is material, this is spiritual. When we are thinking about our kundal, we can focus on the point is how can I peacefully practice bhakti in a sustainable way. So, whatever it takes for me.
So, some people may need a particular level of comforts. Some other people may not need that level of comforts. So, for example, somebody who has been born and brought up in a city, they are told to live in a village.
And a village has no electricity, has no internet. How can I do that? That itself may become so difficult. Now, they don’t have to do, because you need electricity, that means you are attached.
No, that’s what the body needs so that they can peacefully practice bhakti. So, the point is, there may be other people who are fried out in the city. So much noise, so much pollution, so much mess in the village.
But for them, going to a village which is natural, they may take it like ducks take to a pond. It’s wonderful for them. So, the point is, when we talk about kundal, it’s not one formula which applies to everyone.
The point is that anukulyasya sankalpa pratikulyasya vanchami. We accept that it is favourable for our bhakti and we avoid that it’s not favourable. So, to the extent to the extent detachment or simplicity helps us in the focus of Krishna, in focusing on Krishna.
We adopt detachment and simplicity. But if we find that detachment and simplicity itself causes so much trouble, so much agitation that that distracts us from our mind on Krishna. Then, we may decide to settle at another level of detachment and simplicity.
Actually, just the life of a devotee itself, there is a lot of detachment as compared to the life of materialistic people. So, from both, from the perspective of the material world, whether a devotee is attached or detached, the devotee is very detached from the perspective of the material world. And yesterday, I talked that from Krishna’s perspective, whether they are attached or detached, it’s like somebody from the perspective of the sky, whether they are on the first floor or the tenth floor.
Clearly, there is no difference. So, the important thing is that if we situate ourselves in a way that we can sustain and practice bhakti, if we sustain and practice bhakti, then the process of bhakti will be realized. The process of bhakti will help us to become absorbed in Krishna.
And the process of bhakti will ultimately enable us to attain Krishna. So, I’ll summarize. I spoke about how detachment is a result of bhakti.
But detachment doesn’t result only from bhakti. I talked about the logical error of assuming the antecedent. A leads to B. That does not mean because B is present, A has to be present.
Now, if it rains, my lawn will be wet. My lawn is wet. It doesn’t mean that it is wet.
There could be some other cause. So, like that, detachment can be because of the practice of bhakti. Detachment can also be the result of one’s own past karma.
So, if we make detachment the sole center of our desire, the sole parameter for deciding our spiritual advancement, then we can become judgmental and offensive towards others, who we think are not as detached as they should be. I gave the example of a devotee who was asking for a second hand remote switch. If we are successful in being detached, we become judgmental and offensive.
And if we are not successful in being detached, then we become unnecessarily disheartened. B is going to the zone of self-pity. You listed it to be humility, but it is self-pity.
Self-pity means we are thinking only about ourselves. Humility means we understand I am not all that important. Krishna is also important.
So, let me think about it and let me get this and that. And the last half of the class has focused on that being Krishna-centric means that even if our attachments hold on to us, still we hold on to Krishna. There is a metaphor of two metaphors actually.
One is a graph where our desires shoot up. So, when the desires shoot up, at that time resistance can be difficult. But in the intermediate period, rather than beating ourselves up, we can focus on Krishna.
And the mind plays a deceptive double role. First, if between us in the wrong way it comes and it drags us towards the wrong so it makes us a criminal. And it is the same mind that comes between us and Krishna and becomes a judge who beats us up.
So, when we are beating ourselves up for our own way, if it is not taking us towards Krishna, then it may not be guilt. It may not be pseudo-guilt. Guilt will make us more dependent on Krishna, more desperate to reach our goal.
Not just disheartened. So, the second metaphor I took is of a person who has fallen in a well. And they are being pulled down by one person.
And they are also being pulled down by another person. So, our attachments are the person pulling from below. Krishna, the person of Nakti, are like the person of the rope pulling from above.
So, sometimes the person from below may hold and pull so forcefully that we may be dragged down. But still, we don’t have to let go of the rope. Externally speaking, we may be pulled down.
But still, if we are holding onto the rope, sooner or later, we will rise up again. So, even if our attachments make us do something wrong, we focus on practicing Nakti. Not letting go of the practice of Nakti.
And by that, sooner or later, we will rise up. In the practice of Nakti, we will be committed against it. As we get placed in Krishna-Nakti.
And the key thing for us is to sustainably practice Nakti. If you make detachment itself, the sole parameter of spiritual advancement and that’s like knowledge in the mode of ignorance. Materialistic people make material wealth or material enjoyment as the one goal of life.
One as the everything of life. So, if you make detachment the everything of life, how fast can we achieve it? But, instead of doing that, we focus on the practice of Nakti sustainably. Then, different people may be comfortable with different levels of austerity or different levels of detachment and simplicity.
But, whatever enables us to get our mind off material things and focus on Krishna, we do that. And we have to work through different desires differently. Some desires may go away just like that.
Some desires may require experience. Now, it is not that the experience that makes us detached. It is the overall practice of Bhakti which uses the higher taste.
And the experience is, oh, the taste is so poor. Then we realize, okay, there is nothing to be excited about. So, we may have to work out different desires in different ways.
And rather than judging our spiritual advancement by how we are working out our desires, we can focus on how we are working to go towards Krishna. By that, we will become purified and then sustainably, joyfully detached. Because, we will be attached to Krishna and absorbed in Krishna.
Thank you very much. Great. Any comments or questions? Thank you.
You know, this point about going through the experience you mentioned about the promises, third class, fourth class intelligence. You have to experience it. One cannot learn something without experiencing it.
There is a part of the 6th Yantra in Narayana where you speak about the summons. And one was brought up recently in the problems of the past. By unlimited intelligence.
Is that what you said? By unlimited intelligence, one can be detached? Something. Well, I can’t make an exact reference, but I just remember it being made that, the argument of doctrine made that, oh, my sons have to go through material life to be detached and practice spiritual life and just renounce it prematurely. But then the point that was made was it’s like a woman being in childbirth and experiencing terrible suffering and then, again, the point being made is that sometimes it’s not a guarantee that one learns from the experience.
So my question is, is it a risk to say, well, I need to grow this desire beyond me? So is there a risk that sometimes we can fulfill a desire but after the desire grows, it doesn’t work? Yes. Nothing in this world is risk-free. So the point is that we have to focus not on the risk, we have to focus on how much I am going to benefit from it.
So, yes, there is a risk that if we indulge, we may indulge in a disproportionate way, we may get distracted from practice and we may not learn the lesson or it may appear as if we have not learned the lesson. But the point is, that simply means that our conditioning is very strong. And it needs to be addressed in an appropriate way.
So it is not that the experience is what gives the lesson. It is the hearing in the practice of bhakti that gives us a lesson. So actually I have a diagram representation of this.
How it works is, see, okay, try to sketch it here roughly. So there is hearing, there is experience, there is realisation. There is hearing, there is contemplation, analysis and there is realisation.
The seed of realisation is hearing. Some people, simply by hearing, they can analyse, contemplate and realise it. Others, they may hear, that does not give them the conviction.
It is the experience and the feelings. Now, there is no need to make things too judgmental by saying that anybody who needs experience is a second class person. If we see, with the culture also, even in the past, more than 95% of the people were grahasthas.
And it is not that the sages are coming to meet the grahasthas. The grahasthas may say, we are following you. But the sages also, you are following.
Seriously? So, we can’t… So, the conviction and realisation coming from hearing, that was always for a special select number of people. We can’t make that was that which was rare, even in Satyuga, as the expected standard in Kali Yuga. So, now, this is not to discourage the sage.
Those who can be renounced, they are rare, they are having the spirit, they have the inspiration and they should be given full encouragement. If we are inspired, we can also do that. But the point is, that should not be made as the parameter of one’s spiritual seriousness.
That should not be made as the sole parameter of one’s spiritual advancement. So, most people, they go through the experience and I am actually because the life is not just not just about about Sanskrit education. There is a whole culture of Dharma, which is largely sustained by the Gnansas.
They are now renunciate, they exemplify renunciation in a particular way, that they are completely focused on God. But the majority of society is not going to ever be able to practice that. And they need living examples.
And those living examples are going to be Gnansas. So, if we look in the Vedic culture, in the Bhagavatam, it talks about kings. All the kings were Gnansas.
So, it’s not that all the kings that the Bhagavatam talks about, they are all second class people. There are great devotees. And there are whole languages.
So, the point is that this point of first class and second class, it’s important to unite that, to understand that we don’t have to experience everything in this world to realize that it is useless. One of my friends, when I was initially introduced to him, I told him, you just chant Hare Krishna and try it out. It works wonderfully.
He told me, okay. He said that, okay, I will try out chanting Hare Krishna if you try out drugs. I’m sorry, sir.
I told him that actually, you don’t have to try out something which even common sense and intelligence do not allow. Is there any common sense and intelligence by which you can say that chanting Hare Krishna is harmful? Now, drugs, we know that biological reasons are there, medical reasons are there, so many case studies are there. So, it’s not, from the point of hearing and learning, it is primarily that there are so many forms of enjoyment in this world.
It’s not that we have to experience all of them to become attached to them. But there are many ways. There is a whole regulated life of Dharma where people, it is, like yesterday, we don’t have to, by default, position the material as the competitor of the spiritual.
The material is not, by default, the competitor of the spiritual. The material is a functional being. And what level of functional being different people have to function at, that’s different.
The material can become the competitor of the spiritual either in two cases. If we obsess too much over it, thinking that getting it will make me happy. Or we obsess too much over it, thinking that getting rid of it will make me happy.
No. What is going to make us happy is connecting with Krishna. So the material is not by default the competitor of the spiritual.
The material is simply functional and the spiritual is the way where we want to go. It’s actually, say, we were travelling in a plane. There are first class seats.
There are economy seats. There are business class seats. Now, the business class seat feels more comfortable.
The economy seat feels less comfortable. But the point is where the plane is going. Both are going in the same destination.
So some people may want more comforts. They may get more comforts. They will pay more for it.
But the point is not whether a person is seated in a business class or an economy class. The point is whether the plane is going in the right direction. Some people may come so proud that they are sitting in the business class.
They don’t even notice that the plane has not moved only. So sometimes we become so centered on either attachment or detachment that we don’t move towards Krishna. So the point was simply that experience alone is no guarantor of realization.
It is hearing in the practice of bhakti that is the guarantor of realization. But while practicing the bhakti, there are different desires that may distract us to different degrees. And if those desires distract us too much, then processing those desires appropriately is the way we can refocus on bhakti.
Somehow what happens is, see, at one level meeting, sleeping, mating, we are simply biological creatures. But we can now we can be, we sometimes put mating in an entirely different category. Yes, there can be there can be illicit way of doing things, and that can lead to a lot more complications before meeting and sleeping.
So there has to be definitely a lot of caution. But at another level, it is simply biological nature. So somebody is chanting Hare Krishna at the temple, and they are fasting in the temple, and the stomach is tormenting them so much they just can’t chant.
They just can’t focus at all. They are tormented. Better drink some water, take some food, come and chant.
So if the focus is chanting, then whether one takes, whether one does nirgya, or whether one eats, that’s just one thing, get it over and come back and start practicing. Start chanting Hare Krishna. So in terms of the complications that can result, because there is so much infatuation and attachment involved in it, so there is sex life, there is a lot of cautionary notes talked about.
But at another level, it is simply biological function. And some people may get, some people may just go to eat, and just keep eating, keep eating, keep eating, keep eating. Now somebody said that because there is a risk of over-eating, so I will not eat.
He said, you won’t eat. So we don’t have to. The real problem is when the biological function becomes a psychological obsession.
Then it becomes a big problem. So if you just remember that there are bodily functions and different people can regulate their bodily functions for different purposes. Bhima would eat so much.
The Pandavas, all of them, you know, in the Mahabharata. Whatever Pandavas would get, all of them, they would divide in two parts. One part would be shared by Yudhishthira, Arjuna, Nakula and Sahadeva and Draupadi, Akunti, who was there.
And the other part was taken by Bhima. Whereas Bhima did not get it. Nobody was telling him that you are a glutton.
He ate that much and he ate that much. When the Pandavas would get tired, especially in the forest, Bhima alone carried all four parts of this. He carried all of them.
He carried Akunti also. So much energy. So ultimately we keep Krishna in the focus.
And if Krishna is the focus, then how best we can go towards Krishna and Yudhishthira. So there is, of course, the danger that one indulges, one may indulge disproportionately and get obsessed with that. But there is also the danger that one is not able to process the desire, not able to become purified of the desire, that one becomes externally practicing bhakti but so tormented by the desires that one is not actually dreaming of Krishna or not connecting with Krishna.
One is not going towards Krishna. See, the purpose of bhakti is to transcend ourselves, transcend our current material state. The purpose of bhakti is not to torment ourselves.
So if a particular kind of desire is tormenting us and we just want to fix ourselves on Krishna, then to think that I want to get the higher level. I want to be possessed. Actually, if we are not somewhere, imagining that we are there is not going to get us there.
If I am sick and I imagine I am healthy, well, imagining that I am healthy is not going to get me there. Except, okay, I am sick right now, I take this medicine, I will be content. So the overall principle is we have to understand how I can practice bhakti systematically.
If our intentions to practice bhakti, then Krishna will guide us back. And if we are doing things dharmically, then there is an angel everywhere in this world. But there is also the possibility, there is also the time-honored path of moving towards Krishna.
I think that is moving towards Krishna also. Whichever ashram we choose. Does that answer your question? Thank you.
Any other questions? So, Dr. Panditji, I think that in our religion we have a belief in the state of liberation, and also it allows to sustain bhakti, which means to find ashram to be sufficient to do so many things, to give up the grids. And so, I just thought that that would move the spirit to focus on Krishna. How about you? Yeah.
So, maybe some people just feel that we need varnashrama in order to make ourselves individually and sustainably. So, how does that relate with my talking of focusing on Krishna? The purpose of varnashrama was to help us focus on Krishna. varnashrama acharata purusena purapama vishnu lalate panthana anyatya doshakara.
The purpose of varnashrama was to satisfy Krishna. Varnashrama is one. Purpose is again to satisfy Krishna.
That does not mean that even varnashrama is shramagevan kevalam. Just a waste of time. All the varnashrama duties were not focusing on Krishna.
So, now, Srila Prabhupada did in the later part of his life talk a lot about varnashrama. Now, his focus was that varnashrama will help us to practice bhakti sustainably. Now, how exactly that is to be done? That is something which there are different Vaishnavas who have different ideas and they are trying to implement it in their own ways, in their own settings.
The important point is to understand the purpose. The purpose is to make our material life harmonious or make our material life conducive for the practice of ashrama. Everybody in the material world has to face problems.
The expertise of varnashrama is that it allocates to people the kind of problems they like to face. That means there is somebody, a brahmana and we tell the brahmana, you know, there is a verse in the Bhagavad Gita which says that for a higher cause, sometimes we may have to manage to find problems. Did you find that verse? Oh yes, I found it.
This verse from here, that verse from there. Now, if somebody is a Vaishya and you tell them, please find this verse. There are thousands of verses in the Bhagavad Gita.
Where would I find one verse among thousands? You need to give a class. Just give the class without quoting the verse. Who will notice it also? So that which is a stimulation for a brahmana is exciting.
Which means thrill. Thrill for a brahmana that appears like a burden to a Vaishya. On the other hand, you tell a Vaishya that now we have to build a new temple and for that we have to raise one million dollars.
Now I have got something to do. All this sitting and discussing philosophy. There is nothing to do.
Now I can do something. You tell a brahmana I have to raise one million dollars. He says, you have to build a big temple.
Now also you want to sit and discuss philosophy. So discuss philosophy now. Why bother? So the thing is that in Varanasi the point was brahmanas are given allocated things which they like to do.
Vaishya are allocated things which they like to do. And they both contribute to society in their own ways. And then they move on.
So the purpose of Varanasi is to have harmonious relations. Now, in today’s world that purpose needs to be served. If we try to replicate Varanasi as it was traditionally dividing people into Varanasi.
Now who is going to decide who is Varanasi? How can we be sure that somebody is Varanasi? I know many devotees who are in Gurukul. And there is Gurukul. Whoever was there told you are a Brahmana.
And that person was actually very strong in that. Hours and hours studying scripture. The rest is so much energy.
So trying to decide people’s Varanasi just by it requires a lot of time, lot of energy, lot of expertise, lot of close association. If we try to impose Varanasi on people, it can be counterfeit. It has to be done carefully.
But the important thing is that we know that bhakti is not about turning back the clock. It is not that we have to replicate society as it was five hundred years ago or five thousand years ago. The essence of bhakti is turning on the compass.
Turning on the compass means in our… Paramahamsa is guiding us to come towards it. The dhama, muddhi, yoga is one of the minimum. So in our particular situation, how can the material life harmonize in a way that people can practice bhakti? So that is what has to be decided.
So there are different devotees who may come up with different ideas for this. So many devotees… The basic point is that we try to make the material life as compatible as possible with spiritual life. So if devotees are working in multi-lustic companies, multi-lustic environments, then there is a constant conflict.
But if devotees can come together and work on some project, even if that project externally seems material, but there is at least a devotional environment. If there are devotee doctors, they come together and make a hospital. If there are devotee teachers, they come together and start a school.
The school may not be necessarily teaching entirely spiritual things. They may have to teach whatever thing goes. But the point is, have a devotional environment.
It is better than having a non-devotional environment. So, again, it’s not necessary that everyone has to go back to a village kind of thing. Even in the Vedic times, even in the time of Krishna, there was the rural, that is Vrindavan, and there was the urban, that is Mathura.
Mathura was a proper, fully developed city. You can read the Bhagavatam, you can read the Gopalachandru. It’s clearly a city.
So, it’s not that all cities are bad and all villages are good. We don’t have to demonize cities and romanticize villages. If villages are conducive to practice of bhakti, wonderful.
But we can’t make that as a fiat. So, it’s like, again, I’ll conclude with one example. See, if we consider different people are at different places, and they need a take-off point for practicing bhakti.
So now, if it’s like a mountain over here, different people are at different sides of the mountain. Now, one plane may work for take-off from here, one kind of plane, because the surface is like that. Another kind of helicopter or something might work from here.
So, where, wherever a person is, how to help them take-off from there, towards Krishna, that is the point of Vrindavan. You’re a Brahmana, be a Brahmana and practice bhakti. You’re a Vaishya, be a Vaishya and practice bhakti.
Now, if today, if somebody is over here in the mountain, and we drag them from there to some other part of the mountain, and then tell them, you take-off from there. So, somebody who has been living in an urban setting throughout their lives, and we tell them, you, you just come and stay in the village. It’s so peaceful over there, and you can practice bhakti over there.
Now, they have, it has to be peaceful for them. If it is strictly agitating for them, then, what is the point? Bhakti, the purpose of Vahana Ashram is to make bhakti as easy as possible. Not to make bhakti more difficult than what is necessary.
What do I mean by more difficult than what is necessary? To force a person who has been living in a village in a village like that to practice bhakti. That is making bhakti more difficult than necessary. The purpose of Vahana Ashram is to make bhakti as easy as possible for people.
Now, what will be as easy as possible? That will vary according to person to person. That may vary according to culture to culture. Prabhupada, especially women when they were in India, women devotees who came to India, Prabhupada expected them to conform to traditional gender roles.
When he met women mothers in America or in the western world, where they were right from their childhood, they were in a wage, they were doing all the things that men were doing. Prabhupada did not force them. Prabhupada encouraged them in ways which were unheard of in Indian culture.
We had women who got a loan, unshattered, to distribute books where they would meet men and talk with men. This was not done in Indian culture. But Prabhupada did that.
So, the point Prabhupada writes in one letter, he says, that the purpose of management is to encourage the devotional energy of the devotees. Management, all that is meant to do is, devotees have some energy, they have some spirit, they want to serve. And we need to encourage them, we need to facilitate that.
Prabhupada did not try to force-fit people. He encouraged rural living. He encouraged simple living.
So, for example, another example is, Prabhupada personally preferred Ayurveda for medicine. But he did not mandate Ayurveda for medicine. But required himself to callopathy.
And he told his servant, whatever is practical, do that and get healthy. So, just like Ayurveda and callopathy, both are basically material functional tools for becoming healthy so that we can practice bhakti. Similarly, in Varnashram, if it is possible to replicate in some way the traditional, it’s fine.
But that’s not essential. Bhakti is for, Varnashram is for bhakti. Bhakti is not for Varnashram.
We should not put bhakti at the end point of Varnashram. In the sense that, we should not say that after you come through Varnashram, only then you can practice bhakti. Wherever you are, practice bhakti.
And then, whatever arrangement that enables you to practice bhakti sustainably, that will be the adaptation, the improvisation of Varnashram for that person or that community. So, we live in a very complex age where lot of things have become distorted as compared to what are the Vedic standards. And sometimes, in trying to replicate the Vedic material standard, we may spend so much energy and may cause so much conflict in people that their devotional essence, they just have no energy left to do that.
So, whatever works for making the material life conducive for the practice of spiritual life, that would be the practical application of Varnashram in today’s world. Does that address your question? So, thank you very much. So, let us start with