Universal Dimensions of Chaitanya Ramananda Samvada

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
I’m grateful to be here with all of you today Am I audible Clearly Yes to me Okay Okay Thank you Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Om Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.
Can I share my screen, Prabhu? I would like to. Feel free, Prabhu. Thank you very much for the opportunity today to be of service to you.
And this is a very exalted topic to discuss. This is a discussion on Lord Chaitanya’s conversation with Ramananda Rai. So we’ll be focusing because it’s a very vast topic.
And we will focus on some aspects of the discussion. This analysis is broadly four parts. The context, the content, the consequence and the relevance.
So the content itself can go into several classes, but we will we will discuss some aspects of the content. Lord Chaitanya’s pastimes are described. Primarily in the Chaitanya Charita Amrit and several other biographies also.
The Chaitanya Charita Amrit among the various biographies has a distinctive style. That is that it describes events. But wherever Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has philosophical conversations, it zooms in over there.
And elaborates them. In that sense, when we say read the Bhagavatam, sometimes we may see long prayers by certain characters. And it’s a dramatic pastime going on and suddenly there are long prayers.
And we may just skip the prayers and go ahead. The prayers are very illuminating, but sometimes in the context of the drama, they may… Dramatic action that is happening, you may say, oh, I just want to go ahead and know what happened. So there is dramatic action, which naturally attracts our attention.
But Chaitanya Charita Amrit is not in that sense like a crowd-pleasing book. It is beautiful poetry, no doubt. Although it is beautiful poetry, that doesn’t mean that it focuses on pleasing the crowd.
Chaitanya Charita Amrit is more like a book of theology in the format of a biography. So it has a biographical format. Not entirely, but the first seven chapters are elaborate philosophy.
The theology more specifically. Philosophy is more about the nature of reality. Theology is more about the nature of God.
So the Chaitanya Charita Amrit is more about theology. But the most significant thing for us is that Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami focuses on conversations. He describes events, dramatic events.
He describes beautifully, but he focuses on conversations. There’s one reason for it. But one reason was Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami wanted to establish through his book, the intellectual, philosophical and spiritual authority of Lord Chaitanya’s teachings.
And that’s why there are elaborate chapters on not just the incidents, but the philosophy. And one such elaborate chapter comes in the Madhya Leela of the Chaitanya Charita Amrit. That is the discussion between Ramanand Rai and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.
And among various philosophical conversations that Lord Chaitanya has with various people. This, in one sense, is unique. There are five major conversations Lord Chaitanya has with various characters.
So his conversations, we can say, they’re at a degree of hierarchy. His conversations with, say, with Prakashan Saraswati and Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya. They are primarily to transform.
They are both of them are having an impersonal conception of life. And Chaitanya Mahaprabhu speaks deep philosophy to transform their hearts. So they are more for the purpose of transformation.
Then there are the conversations. He has another set of conversations with Rupa Goswami and Sanatana Goswami. They are also very deep.
They are more for the purpose of instruction. Rupa and Sanatana Goswami have already accepted him as a great authority for Prakashan Saraswati and Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya. They respect him as a sanyasi, but they not accepted him as the authority person.
So his speech is to transform them to accept not just his authority, but the authority of bhakti. With Rupa and Sanatana Goswami, it’s more for instruction. And with Ramananda Rai, it is different in two ways.
It’s not because it’s not a vertical. He is transforming or instructing someone. They’re simply reciprocating.
It’s a discussion. And not only is it a discussion, the flow of the discussion is significantly the other way. In most other conversations, it’s Lord Chaitanya who is speaking and others are hearing.
Although, of course, with respect to Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya, Lord Chaitanya hears from him for seven days. But what he speaks, what he hears is not described in the Chaitanya Charita Amrit. And that is not considered primarily the part of the conversation.
But here Ramananda Rai speaks. And here, there’s a very important lesson which we’ll come to later. But in the context, this is a very distinctive conversation.
That Lord Chaitanya hears. And moreover, the point is not just the discussion. It’s simply a discussion for appreciation and relishing, for appreciating and relishing.
So there is no, it’s not so much instruction, but it’s just, you could almost say that when two equals meet each other, they’re just relishing the discussion. Or Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, Bodhayantah Parasparam. They relish it.
So in one sense, this discussion is the model for all of us, how we can connect with and reciprocate with devotees. I’ll come to that, to the conclusion. But this is the context.
Let’s look a little bit more at the context. So let’s understand Ramananda Rai’s background. Now, who is so worthy for having a conversation with the Lord as an equal? So Ramananda Rai would by most standards be considered an unlikely candidate for this.
Why an unlikely candidate? Because at that time, society in India was quite caste conscious. In fact, far more caste conscious than Krishna conscious. And yet, what happens over there is, so Ramananda Rai was born in the Karanam caste, which is similar to the Kayasthas.
And they were not considered to be the highest of castes. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was born in a Brahmana family. And the Brahmanas were quite proud of their high birth at that time.
Now, this was not a desirable thing. It was considered a deviation. Some things in scripture are descriptive, are prescriptive about what we should do.
And some things are descriptive. This is how things were at that time. The descriptive part is not necessarily prescriptive.
That there was a caste system that is described in the caste consciousness, that is described in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, that Haridasa Thakur was not allowed in the Jagannath Puri temple, that is described there. That is a descriptive part. That is not a prescriptive part.
So everything in scripture is not necessarily the teaching of scripture. Sometimes scripture, we just describe the sociocultural reality at a particular time. But the point is, within that sociocultural reality, the unlikeliness of this conversation is highlighted.
So he was born in a little lower caste. And Bhavananda Rai was his father. He had five sons.
Among him, Ramananda was the eldest. They were both born in Orissa. Lord Chaitanya, I mean, as you know, appeared in Bengal, but he resided in Orissa at Jagannath Puri.
And during, after arriving at Jagannath Puri and transforming Saro Bhattacharya, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu went on a South India tour. At that time, Saro Bhattacharya told him that, Kabur, you will find a very exalted Vaishnava, Ramananda Rai. Earlier, I did not value him.
But now I understand how great he is. You associate with him, it will be very satisfying for you. If you consider his lineage from the perspective of not just material, but spiritual perspective, it is described that he is a disciple of Raghavendra Puri, who was an important associate of Lord Chaitanya.
And he was a grand disciple of Madhavendra Puri. Now, that brings him, in one sense, in terms of initiation, he is at the same level of Lord Chaitanya. Lord Chaitanya himself is a grand disciple of Madhavendra Puri through Ishwara Puri.
So we have Raghavendra Puri, through Ishwara Puri there is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Raghavendra Puri through, sorry, Madhavendra Puri to Raghavendra Puri is Ramananda Rai. So both of them are in that sense equal.
However, if you consider further, when they met each other, when they saw each other, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was a sannyasi and Ramananda Rai was the, in some ways, the governor, whatever be the functionary, the English translation often is governor, but he was the administrative head of that place, of not just Kagur, but the whole area over there. And he was naturally accompanied by brahmanas as he was going for bathing. At that time, even if the brahmanas were not very pure, not very spiritual, the brahmanas would be kept by the kings and the heads of state so that, around them, so that they would have some appearance of piety and they would look good in a religious society that, oh, we maintain brahmanas, we are surrounded by brahmanas, we discuss with brahmanas.
And the brahmanas would sometimes spend time with the heads of state because the brahmanas also needed sponsors, they needed maintenance. So these brahmanas were not particularly spiritually evolved, but they were religious, they were pious. So they were going with Ramananda Rai when he was going to take a bath.
And Ramananda Rai and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu saw each other and they rushed toward each other and they embraced each other for a very long time. And from the socio-political, socio-economic perspective, Ramananda Rai was the head of the state over there. And Lord Chaitanya was a sannyasi.
Normally sannyasis are respected. And they were, at least at that time, respected much more, 500 years ago. But still, Lord Chaitanya was an unknown sannyasi.
Even among sannyasis, there are some sannyasis who are very well known. And Lord Chaitanya at that time was quite unknown. So the brahmanas said, why is this? Why is our head of state going and embracing a sannyasi? Normally, if a sannyasi is there, you may offer some respects from a distance, be reverential.
You don’t expect such intimacy as embraced with a sannyasi. And then on the other side, they were surprised, why is this sannyasi embracing a person who is socio-hierarchically like a shudra? The brahmanas would serve him, Ramananda Rai. They would perform rituals for him, perform sacrifices for him.
But they kept their distance. They considered him to be a relatively lower caste person. And here, Lord Chaitanya was embracing.
So this itself is an indication, this context where both of them, they go beyond convention. This is a pointer to what is going to come in the discussion. So what is going to come is that which transcends normal conceptions and conventions.
Conceptions refer to how we think and conventions refer to how we act. So in every society, there are some normal conceptions and normal conventions. Here, the conversation between Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Rai is going to go beyond ordinary conceptions and go beyond ordinary conventions.
So both of them hugged each other for a long time. And then Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Rai noticed, they sensed the bewilderment, the puzzlement on the faces of the brahmanas. And they decided, OK, we have to come to external consciousness.
So they separated from each other. And what did they do thereafter? They decided that they will meet later. I want to discuss with you.
Both of them said yes. Ramananda Rai humbly said, I want your association. My mind is not pure.
By your association, I’ll become purified. And Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, actually, I am simply a Mayavadi sannyasi. It is only by associating with a Vaishnava like you that I will get some love for Krishna.
So both of them again spoke according to external convention that external convention is a sannyasi is considered pure. So association with a sannyasi will purify a grahastha. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu took a humble position.
Many times when Chaitanya Mahaprabhu identifies himself, not based on his heart, but based on his affiliation, that I am just a Mayavadi sannyasi. That’s because he had taken initiation in a sampradaya, which was Mayavadi. That was the purpose because that Mayavad was respected at that time.
So he he talked about that sannyas, but he’s the topmost devotee. He’s Krishna in the mood of Radharani. But that is just the humility.
And then they met that night. So this is we can now discuss the context. Now, as I mentioned, the content goes to a very high level.
Let’s look at some aspects of the content. So what they discuss is what is the ultimate purpose of life? What is it that is what is it that we all should do in life? So for all of us, we are doing various activities. We may be having a career.
We have our families. We may have our hobbies. We may have some.
Sometimes we have some unhealthy habits. So we do various things. And some people, some something we do wholeheartedly, something to do halfheartedly.
But what is it that will give us the highest results in life? What is it that will be most rewarding? So there is a hierarchy which they discuss. And I will not go into the hierarchy technically, but just let’s look at it in a broad sense. So first, Jalamandarai, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, when he asked this question, you know, what is what is what is one’s duty? What should one do to achieve the perfection of life? So in one sense, this is this is a conversation that has echoes throughout the scriptures.
In the Mahabharata, the question, driving question is what is Dharma? Dharma in that context means what is the right thing to do? The driving question of the Ramayana is who is an ideal person and what are the characteristics of ideal person? And the answer is Ram and Ram’s characteristics are described and thereby the activities of Ram are also considered to be ideal in that sense. The driving question of the Bhagavatam is what is the duty of a person? What is the best thing for a person who is about to die? So the idea that there are so many options for us to act and we need to choose, we need to prioritize. We have limited time, we have limited energy, we have limited limited capacities.
So what is it? Where should we invest our time, energy and capacities? So that is a universal question, not just for within the Vedic canon, but for all of humanity. And here, so the answers are given in some ways. The answers in the Ramayana, the Mahabharata and the Bhagavatam are similar to what is the answer given in Chaitanya Charita Amrita.
The difference is Chaitanya Charita Amrita goes to a higher and higher and higher level in giving the answer. So that’s why you see a pyramid over here. And so the conception of the ultimate purpose of life also is different for different people.
So at one level, Ramananda Raya starts and he says it is the duty of Varanashram. Varanashram is a system which is given by the Lord. Varanashram basically refers to the position within society, which we have according to our social and spiritual location on the journey of life.
And then we do our duty. Such duty ensures that we are gradually purified and the society’s social structure is maintained. So Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says, this is true, but it’s external.
He doesn’t reject it in the sense of calling it false, but he says this is external, which is significant. So what is it? What is this conversation doing again and again? Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says this is external. The idea is that within scripture also, there are many different layers and only those who want to go to the deepest layer can go to the deepest layer.
So there are many layers which need to be peeled, peeled. So like we had the churning of the ocean that is described. There are many desirable objects that come, but when you keep churning, then we go to the most desirable object that comes.
So some people might just get satisfied with the initial products. So then he says that actually just doing one’s duty is not enough. One should do one’s duty in a mood of devotion.
So he says, yes, that is good. We should offer our duty, we should permeate our dutifulness with devotion. But what is, but this is also external, speak something more.
Then he says, we should renounce our duty and And he says, yes, this is good. Then Mahaprabhu doesn’t reject it. He says it’s superficial, it’s external.
Go deeper, go deeper. Now we may wonder why, what’s wrong with sarva-dharman parityajya? Isn’t that very high? We’re renouncing our duties. Yes, it is very high, but there are higher knowledges still.
So then he talks about gyan-mishra-bhakti. So one may renounce one’s duty for the purpose of surrendering, but one may not have much spiritual realization at that time. So we could say the first two levels are going towards gyan-mishra-bhakti.
Then one renounces the world. But after renouncing the world, what next? This renunciation is not enough. There has to be a higher connection.
Prabhupada says in a lecture that he quotes the sarva-dharman parityajya verse 1866 in the Bhagavad Gita. And he says, even the hippies had done sarva-dharman parityajya. They had given up their duties to their society, to their family, to their nation, to their, you could say, to their career, to even their own bodily hygiene.
But he said, I taught them maam ekam saranam vraja. I taught them how to surrender to Krishna. And that is extremely important.
So that is a higher level. One may renounce, renunciation without realization, renunciation without absorption, that is not considered very elevated. So then he says, OK, beyond that, one gets spiritual realization.
One becomes absorbed in bhakti, understanding that actually Krishna is beyond Brahman. So brahma-bhutah prasannatma na shochati na kankshati samah sarveshu bhuteshu mad-bhaktim labhate param One will attain mad-bhaktim labhate param, will attain my devotion. And he says, yes, inha badaaya aage kahwar.
So what has happened? One has come from the Brahman conception to the Bhagwan conception. And that’s why some taints of the Brahman conception might still be there. That’s why it’s considered jnanam ishwara bhakti.
And then beyond that, then he talks about kevala bhakti, simply absorption in the Lord. Kevala in this context means only, pure, exclusive, nothing else. That means we love the Lord simply because the Lord is so lovable, not because of what he will give us.
Now, many times people worship God and we may also pray to Krishna to get something desirable from him. That is OK. At least we are praying to God.
And Krishna says that such people are Sukkrtina, they are well-intentioned, they are good. But they are not the best. The best is to understand that Krishna is Krishna’s greatest blessing.
Krishna is Krishna’s greatest blessing. If Krishna manifests in our hearts, he will enrich our hearts in a way that nothing else can in the world. And that is life’s highest perfection.
But then he goes further and he says in kevala bhakti, we may love the Lord purely, but the Lord also has many manifestations. The manifestation of Vishnu, of Narayan, of Narasimha, of Ram, of Krishna in Dwarka. And then like that, the hierarchy goes up and absorption in the divine couple and especially the divine couple that is referred to here as Radha Krishna.
Now, why is that considered the highest? That’s a big subject, many reasons. But primarily, it’s because Radha Krishna manifests the most intimate love. The kind of affection between Lakshmi and Narayan, Arjuna, Sita and Ram doesn’t come as to as intimate a level as it comes in the case of Radha and Krishna.
So then Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is very satisfied from the level of kevala bhakti only. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says, yes, this is it, but now go deeper into it. So there are two kinds of going deeper.
One is this is not, this is superficial. So go deeper. This is right, but now go deeper into this, go deeper into this.
So there is a going deeper into something which is right also that we need to go deeper into. So that’s how it goes deeper and deeper, discuss very elevated subjects of Radharani’s love for the Lord. So this is now this discussion of pure devotion in the mood of the love of Radha and Krishna and how the devotees love Radha and Krishna.
That is the zenith, that is the highest. And why is Radharani’s love the highest? Because she’s the most selfless. She has in one sense no concern for herself.
Her concern is only for Krishna’s pleasure and whatever it takes to give Krishna pleasure, she’s ready to do that. Love is characterized by selflessness. Love, the essence of love is giving.
The essence of lust is taking. Sometimes we differentiate lust in terms of sexuality and love in terms of spirituality. That is true, but that may not be very practical in terms of how do we interact because we have so many different relationships with people.
So we could put it in other ways that the essence of love is giving. The essence of lust is taking. So whenever we see someone, how do we know whether now that person may be of the, we may not normally consider that my relationship with them is tainted with lust.
But there could be lust for power, there could be lust for control, lust for exploitation. So if we see someone and the first thought in our mind is what can this person do for me? That means we are in material consciousness. Our relationship is tainted by lust.
But as soon as we see a person, we think, what can I do for this person? That is, that is love. And this love is manifested at the highest level in Radharani where her whole being is offered for the pleasure of Krishna. And we know this in the past time where Narad Muni asked for the dust of Krishna’s devotees so that Krishna would be relieved from the headache.
And Radharani was the foremost among the devotees. Gopis was ready to do that. And she said that, Narad Muni said, you’ll go to hell if the dust of your feet touches Krishna’s.
And Radharani said, yes, I know that. But for me, just the thought that Krishna has headache is hell. I can’t bear it.
Just go quickly and relieve Krishna of his headache. And if I can relieve Krishna of his headache for even one moment, that’s worth going to hell forever also. So that is the selflessness of Radharani’s love.
That selflessness can manifest in different ways depending on the particular move, particular Leela that is being performed. But Radharani, there is no love that can come close to Radharani’s love. Her whole being is how can I please Krishna? She aspires to fulfill all the desires of Krishna to her fullest capacity.
And then as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu keeps speaking more and more, Ramananda Rai keeps speaking more and more, then Chaitanya Mahaprabhu keeps asking more and more. And at one point, Ramananda Rai says, you know, I had not thought that anyone could inquire anything beyond this. Ramananda Rai is also in ecstasy.
Sometimes you may study very deep aspects of scripture, but those aspects are so deep that there is no appropriate audience to speak at. And if somebody is worthy enough to speak, some audience is already evolved enough, they are rasika enough. If they are rasika and they want to become bhavuka, if they can relish the mellows and they want to rise to the highest bhava, then it’s a great joy to have an audience like that.
So Ramananda Rai is delighted and he’s astounded. He says, no one has inquired beyond this. And Ramananda Rai’s ecstasy keeps speaking, keeps speaking.
And then at one point, Ramananda Rai starts speaking a song which describes the extremely intimate pastime of Lord Chaitanya, of Lord Krishna, and in this way, extreme intimacy is being described. But Chaitanya puts his lip to Ramananda Rai. He puts his lip, you know.
So the idea is that when the Lord is performing intimate pastimes, that has to be respected. That is not to be publicized to everyone. That’s why the mood is, Prabhupada also said, the Gopis pastimes, Krishna’s pastimes of the Gopis, they are exalted pastimes.
And they are not to be spoken to everyone because they can easily be misunderstood. They can be misunderstood with mundane sexuality, whereas they are the topmost spirituality. So even Lord Chaitanya and Ramananda Rai, when there is no possibility of misunderstanding because both of them are completely devoted, but there also they bring us to stop.
They discuss no more. This is an indication for all of us that we discuss appropriate subjects. Sometimes we speak a very exalted subject to somebody who is not at that level and they may get confused.
Sometimes we may discuss a subject that may just be too overwhelming for somebody. But the purpose of discussion is actually to elevate others, to elevate others and to speak appropriately. Even Krishna in the Gita says that, especially the last part of the Gita, which is very confidential, Krishna’s pouring out of the heart.
Krishna is expressing his love. There, Krishna says that this has to be spoken confidentially. Don’t speak this to everyone.
Those who are not austere, those who don’t have a devotional disposition, those who don’t have self-attitude, don’t speak to those. So the idea is not that it literally shouldn’t be spoken, but the idea is that we need to be aware of what is the effect of what we are speaking. Is it going to elevate the person or is it going to agitate the person? Is it going to trigger attraction or is it going to trigger, say, envy? So we have to be cautious.
So Lord Chaitanya silences Ramananda Rai over here. And then let’s look at some some big violence from the discussion, which indicate that there are short, short sutralic discussions. So it’s like if we could say after this elaborate discussion, there is like a rapid fire quiz.
So in rapid fire quiz, the question is short and specific and the answer also has to be short. So this is also there. Many of this mood of, say, short question, short answer.
This is quite often there in our Vedic scriptures. You see in the in the Yaksha’s conversation, Yudhishthira in the Mahabharata also something similar is there. So this also there are more than a dozen items of around a dozen items.
But I have chosen three to discuss over here. So what does he talk about over here? The essence of devotion is the redefinition of values. The more our devotion increases, what happens? The more we realize that it is the Lord who is who is the supreme value for us.
Nothing else matters except the Lord. So based on that devotional redefinition of values, let’s look at some things. So he asks the question, what is the best education that Mahaprabhu asks? And Ramayana says the best education is devotion to Krishna.
Now we may say, OK, education and devotion. OK, it’s an interesting connection. So we may talk about it today.
If you ask people, what is the best education? They may say, OK, I want to go to an Ivy League university. That’s the best education. Well, OK, let’s try to understand this from a broader perspective.
If you consider what is knowledge in today’s world, knowledge is equated with skills. OK, somebody is an engineering, somebody has studied law, somebody studied medicine. So we talk about knowledge in terms of skills and that is the capacity to control the outer world.
And that has its utility. Arjuna is an archer and his archery knowledge is vital also for the service he is going to do to Krishna. But if you see in the not just in the Vedic context, but if you go back to a few hundred years ago, definitely a few thousand years ago, even in the Western world, knowledge, Socrates, for example, talks about knowledge in terms of virtue.
If we have knowledge, I want to see it in how you behave. So virtue refers to the capacity to control the inner world. So what is the best education? Not just that which provides us skills, but that which empowers us with virtues.
In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna talks about 20 items of knowledge and all of them are virtues. Because knowledge shouldn’t just change what we do externally. It changes who we are internally.
It changes our values. It gives us, it instills virtues within us. And among virtues, there can be many virtues.
Every virtue manifests our higher side. We have a lower side, we are selfish, we are manipulative, we are shortsighted. But when virtues start manifest, when virtues become strong within us, then we don’t become manipulative.
We become more service oriented. We don’t become shortsighted. We become farsighted.
We become more selfless. So many virtues can manifest our higher side, but the only virtue that can take us to the highest reality. Many virtues can help us live better, contribute more in society.
They can also take us to a higher destination, maybe heavens in our future life. But there’s only one virtue that can take us to the highest destination. And that is the virtue of devotion.
And so in that sense, what is the purpose of education? What is the best education? That which will take us to the highest destination. That which will bring about the greatest transformation in our heart. That which will manifest the highest virtue.
And that is devotion. So we may we may go to a university to study even when we are having our jobs. We may do some parallel learning because nowadays technology keeps changing.
We have to keep learning. All that is useful. All that is valuable in its own way.
But the most important education, if you want the highest of our life to be most meaningful and most rewarding is our devotional education. So the opportunities that we get to hear about Krishna, that is the most important education. So that is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is pleased with the answer.
Devotion also means redefinition of values. So what is most auspicious for living entities? Mahaprabhu asks. And the answer is the association of a devotee of Krishna.
In one sense, Ramananda Rai is speaking about his own fortune. He has got an association of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is himself.
He’s the Lord, but he’s in the mood of a devotee. But now we may think they’re really auspicious. If I win a lottery ticket, that will be good.
If, say, in today’s world, you could say an effective vaccine or a cure for COVID is described, that will be auspicious. You may say that, OK, if climate changes, that will be auspicious. There could be many things which are auspicious.
But ultimately, why is the association of a devotee considered auspicious? Because for anything to have an auspicious result, it is the inner heart has to be transformed. The auspiciousness has to come in the heart in terms of transformation of desires. We might get a cure for COVID or vaccine, effective vaccine or even a cure for COVID.
But that will that might only start political and economic wars with somebody trying to exploit everybody else based on the cure that they have. So unless we might we might find some means to remove climate change problems. But if there is no consciousness change to accompany climate change, again, we will do something else to pollute the environment in some other way.
So what does the association of devotees do? To understand this, we need to understand how desires work. We usually think of desires as linear. Let’s say the person is here, the object, the desirable object is there and I desire that object.
So that is the normal way desires work. We may be passing by a shop and we may it might have a new version of a smartphone being displayed in its window. Oh, I want to buy that.
So or we might see something on our phones or laptops and some advertisement. So we see a person, we see a desirable object. However, desires often are triangular.
They’re not just linear. There’s a person is a desirable object. And there is a person savoring, relishing, enjoying, displaying the desirable object.
So most companies, when they want to advertise their products, they don’t just show the product. They show the product endorsed by certain certain celebrities. In fact, sports players, say, for example, in India, cricketers, they they don’t earn so much through their sports play as they earn to the.
If they become superstars, they earn through endorsements. Why is the idea of a top sports player, top cricketer is saying that I use this phone? Oh, let me also use. So our desires are also triangular, not just linear.
And this is especially true for spiritual desires. Why? Especially true for spiritual desires, because in the case of spiritually desirable objects, they may not look especially attractive. If depending on what our particular interest is, material objects, which look very attractive, whether it is.
Whether it is a lifestyle product or whether it is another kind of sense object, it looks attractive. But how many of us we look at a Bhagavad Gita or we look at Chetan Charita Amrit and think, oh, this is so attractive. I want to read it.
That doesn’t happen so often. So the spiritually desirable objects may not catch our attention simply by looking at them. So the contact with them may not create that desire.
However, if whether it is a Bhagavad Gita or Chetan Charita Amrit, if we meet some devotee who is relishing this, they come up with fresh insights based on that book. They are they get so much joy in talking about it. They are animated with love in discussing that.
And you think, what is there in this book? I want to know about it. Maybe they’re finding so much. I’ll find something over.
So quite often when we when we associate with someone who has devotional desires, that infuses with devotional desires. So our ultimate desirable object is Krishna. And when we associate with those who love Krishna, the love for Krishna or at least the desire to love Krishna starts becoming activated in our hearts.
And that is how, actually speaking, we all become spiritually inspired. So for us, the biggest transformation is I talk about transformation of values. That’s true.
Along with that, we want to transform our desires as presently. We may, if we have basic philosophical understanding, we will value bhakti. We may value devotion, but still our desires are not yet transformed.
We may value as devotion is very important. I want to chant properly. I want to study scriptures.
But so many other desires come up. So desire transformation of values is more at the intellectual level. Transformation of desires is more at the level of the mind or the heart, depending on what kind of desires are there.
So this transformation happens by the association of devotees. And that’s why association of devotees is not just a physical thing. Oh, I came to a temple and I feel.
No. How much did I get the desires of those devotees? That desire of that transfer of desire is the essence of association. Association of devotees is most auspicious because it the association enriches us.
It transfers into our heart the desire that will bring the greatest auspiciousness, the desire to love Krishna. Then one more thing we’ll discuss in this. What is the greatest unhappiness? You may think, oh, if I if I lose my job, if my relationship breaks down or.
If I get some terrible crippling disease and it’s all this can be terrible and they are they are troubling. But here he says to not have the association of Krishna’s devotees is the greatest unhappiness. Now, why is that? What is the meaning of this? Let’s try to understand it from one person.
For many perspectives, we could take it. It is that in the association of devotees, we experience Krishna. Yatra Gayanti Madh Bhakta Tatra Tishtami Narada.
Na Hambasami Vaikunte Yogina Mrudayeshiva Yatra Gayanti Madh Bhakta Tatra Tishtami Narada. So wherever there is Krishna, wherever Krishna says, I’m not present in Vaikuntha. I’m not present in the heart of the yogis.
I am present wherever devotees are glorifying me. Now, this is an example of a scriptural statement which cannot be taken literally. It is rhetorical for emphasis.
Krishna is present in Vaikuntha. Krishna is present in the heart of the yogis. But he is not accessible for us there.
How can we go to Vaikuntha? How do we peer into the hearts of the yogis? But we can experience Krishna’s presence in the association of devotees who are glorifying Krishna. Yatra Gayanti Madh Bhakta. The devotees speak about him, sing about him.
We all can experience Krishna. And once we experience Krishna, that is such a relishable experience. There is so much fulfillment and enrichment in that.
The devotee feels there is nothing comparable to this. Yam labdhva cha param labham manyate nadhikam tatha. Having attained this, there is nothing else to be attained.
Or Yadrasamrit. That was the Bhagavad Gita. The Bhagavatam says the same thing.
Yadrasamrit truptasya nanyatrasyadrati kochit. Once we get this taste, there is no other taste that will attract the Purusha. So the point is, in the association of devotees, when you experience Krishna, when you experience the highest happiness, and then that association goes away.
And then I cannot experience that same higher happiness. And I cannot experience Krishna. And that is the greatest unhappiness for a devotee.
Now we may say, can’t we by our own devotion experience Krishna? Well, yes and no. Let’s understand this. Yes, we all can, whatever situation we are in, we can try to remember Krishna.
And if we can focus our mind and heart on Krishna, we can experience it, no doubt. But there are limitations. So how it is? This is based on Bhagavad Gita 10.9. What happens over here is that Krishna says that when those who are devoted to me come together, they relish discussing about me and they relish enlightening each other about me.
So what happens is, Krishna is unlimited. We relish him from a particular perspective. And another devotee relishes Krishna from another perspective.
Now there may be similarities, but there will also be, because we are all individuals, there will also be differences. And when we discuss with other devotees, what happens is we appreciate how they are appreciating Krishna. And they appreciate how we are appreciating Krishna.
And there is no joy like that. Oh, I didn’t think about that point. I never, never, never perceived it that way.
So that’s how it’s one thing to know Krishna and to become absorbed in remembering Krishna. It’s quite another to learn newer and newer facets of Krishna, to hear the same words, but explain from a different perspective. Oh, I never thought like that.
So that’s why in association of devotees, our, we could say our relationship with Krishna expands and deepens. Our appreciation for Krishna, it intensifies. So that’s why this is Bodhayantah Parasparam.
We are mutually enriched. So individual remembrance of Krishna is wonderful. And we all need to cultivate that.
The same word also says, Machittaha Madgathaha Pranaha. If we remember Krishna, Prabhupada translates it over there as, not just the devotees think of me, he says, the thoughts of my pure devotees dwell in me. In 10.9 he says.
So that means dwell in me means Krishna is the home for the thoughts of the pure devotees, for the mind, for the heart. Their thoughts may go to various places, but as soon as there is an opportunity, it comes back to Krishna. Just like you may go to various places, but as soon as the work is done, come back home.
So we think about Krishna constantly. We try to cultivate our personal relationship with Krishna. But simultaneously, when we associate with others, there is a special flavor which comes as our appreciation for Krishna expands.
And this brings us to a paradox over here that Krishna uses the word Bodhayantaha. Bodhayantaha means to enlighten. And this is 10.9 and 10.8 he has already said that that they are Buddha.
They are enlightened. The word Buddha. Aham sarvasya prabho mattah sarvam pravartate, iti mattva bhajan temam, buddha bhava samanyata, Buddha.
So Buddha is cognate. It comes from the same root as Buddha. Buddha means not just the head of a particular religious tradition, but Buddha generically means the enlightened one.
So they are already enlightened because they know Krishna. And how can the enlightened enlighten each other? That is because Krishna is unlimited. Now God outgrows every frame we use to see him.
So we may analyze Krishna from a particular perspective. And it’s wonderful to use that perspective to understand Krishna. But then we understand that Krishna is bigger than this perspective.
So we may follow a particular religious path and we come to know Krishna by that. And that’s wonderful. We understand Krishna is bigger than any religion.
But Thiru Thakur says that God is not the monopoly of any religion. God is the universal heritage for all of humanity. So religion is meant for God.
God is not meant for religion. The point is that no matter how much we know Krishna, there’s always so much more to know about Krishna. In this way, the enlightened keep applying to each other.
So these are just a few glimpses of the content of the conversation that happened between Lord Chaitanya and Ramananda Rai. So now we move to the last two parts, relatively small parts. We’ll discuss what are the consequences of this conversation and then lastly, what is the relevance? So what have what are the consequences? First, as the conversation went forward, Lord Chaitanya gave him, gave Ramananda Rai.
So pleased with that, he gave him darshan. He gave darshan of the Shri Krishna Chaitanya, Radha Krishna Naya Naya. So Chaitanya Mahaprabhu manifested as a divine couple, Radha and Krishna.
So the very subject that Ramananda Rai was talking about, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu revealed that he was, he was, we could say, the subject. He was the object of that subject. Subject is what the topic that we are discussing.
And what are they discussing about? They were discussing about Krishna, Radha Krishna. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu gave him darshan. That indicated how pleased Lord Chaitanya was with him.
So that was the immediate consequence. But there was a bigger consequence also. We see that from this point onwards, Lord Chaitanya starts manifesting more and more of the Radha Bhav.
So Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is Shri Krishna Chaitanya, Radha Krishna Naya Naya. He is Radha and Krishna. Till this point, till the 8th chapter in the Madhya Leela, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is largely in the mood of Krishna who is doing prachara.
He is in the mood of Krishna establishing the Yuga Dharma. But from his, from the time he associates with Ramananda Rai, Krishna, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is both Radha Krishna. As Krishna, he establishes Dharma.
As Radha Rani, he just relishes Krishna, relishes the love of the divine couple. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu starts relishing this more and more. The Radha Bhav within Chaitanya Mahaprabhu starts manifesting more and more.
It’s there before, but it’s more of devotion to Krishna, not specifically Radha Bhav. This is, of course, an elaborate subject. But this is, so there is an immediate transformation.
There is an immediate consequence and there is a long-term consequence. Same way for Ramananda Rai, when he is himself ecstatic speaking about his exalted subjects. But when he sees, he has a darshan of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as the divine couple, he just loses consciousness and fails.
And after some time, he comes back to consciousness and he offers profuse prayers, glorifying Lord Chaitanya and thanking him for the great fortune he has been bestowed. And then Lord Chaitanya says, actually, I want more of this fortune. I want to discuss more with you.
You come with me and stay with me, Jagannath Puri. And Ramananda Rai, he is so ecstatic, he says, yes, I will do it. Ramananda Rai has a new responsible position, he has enormous wealth and giving it up, you can’t do something like that without the sanction of the king.
Sometimes somebody may have a very wealthy job and they just give up the job. They also normally have to do some kind of KT knowledge transfer before you go. But at least in a company, in a democracy, we can give up the job whenever we want.
But in a monarchy, if a person suddenly gives up the job, the king will get into trouble, the king may get angry and that can get a person into trouble also. We see the difference that when Rupa Sanatana Goswami wanted to give up their job, Rupa Goswami was able to give up. But Sanatana Goswami, when he tried to give it up, the employer in that case was a tyrannical king.
And Nawab Hussain Shahani imprisoned Sanatana Goswami. So it was a risky thing to do for him. So he gave up the world.
Ramananda Rai, he was so attracted to Lord Chaitanya, so he gave up the world. But what happened? He gave up the world for the Lord’s sake. He got the Lord and he also got the world in the sense that Pratap Rudra, his king, was also devoted.
He was so pleased that he had the opportunity to serve Lord Chaitanya. He says, I will, I will provide you for all material, for all your material needs. You will not have any lacking.
You will not lack anything at all. And this way, he was not a loser. He was enriched spiritually and he was also enriched materially.
That’s, of course, exceptional. But that indicates that the principle that when we renounce for the Lord’s sake, we will be enriched. And then last part is, what is the relevance for all of us? Now, the whole point is, this is such an exalted conversation.
We go to the specifics, we find that there is nothing as deep and as exalted in any world literature. Many world literatures talk about love of God on the spiritual path. There is a universal aspect and a confidential aspect.
The universal aspect is that we all appreciate that love of God is the highest value and being taught in various traditions. And Srila Prabhupada even said, when some Christians approached him and asked, what do you think about Jesus? He said that he’s our guru. I was surprised.
How? It’s because he had so much love for God that he was ready to lay down his life for the sake of God. If somebody has so much love, we bow down to him, we worship him, we treat him as our guru. So Prabhupada was very inclusive in that sense that he said that we can appreciate love of God wherever it is there.
That’s the universal aspect. But simultaneously there is a confidential aspect. While love of God is talked about in many of the world’s great theistic traditions, but the levels of love of God, the lovability of God, and the loving dealings between the Lord and his topmost devotees, all these are revealed especially in the Gaudiya Vishnu tradition.
And this is a treasure that we need to treasure. So not in the sense of superiority and pride. My religion is better than your religion.
Not in that sense or my tradition is superior to yours. But in the sense of deep gratitude, we did not do anything to deserve this. We just got it.
That the fortune that we have got, we are deeply grateful. This highest revelation has been given to us. And then that the eagerness to savour it and to share it.
That we relish this supreme gift of the highest love and we strive to share with others. So Lord Chaitanya had both these moods. He was savouring love for Krishna and he was also sharing love for Krishna.
And that is the mission of all the followers of Lord Chaitanya. We savour the love for Krishna through our personal devotional practices. We do them very intense, very seriously that we savour that love for Krishna.
And then we share it with others through our outreach activities. And that is the way we can treasure the treasure with which we have been bestowed in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. Through exalted conversations like this Chaitanya Ramananda Samvad.
So I’ll quickly summarize. Today we discussed about the Chaitanya Ramananda Samvad in broadly four parts. First I talked about the context.
It is the unlikeliest of conversations because from a social, from a cultural and economic perspective, it is unlikely that the two would hug each other and talk to each other. From a cultural perspective, Ramananda Raya was a Shudra and he was a Sanyasi and a Brahmana. On the other hand, he was a wealthy person.
A wealthy person might respect a Sanyasi from a distance. But hugging and talking intimately, the context is remarkable. We show how devotion goes beyond all conceptions and conventions that we might normally have.
Then we talk about content, how from the level of beautifulness in an ordinary sense to the highest level of pure love for the divine couple, that the conversation goes over various hierarchies. And then I talk specifically within that about Radharani’s love as being described the most selfless and therefore the most exalted. And devotion as transformation of values, redefinition of values.
We talk about three things. The highest education is that which imparts within us the highest virtue. That is love for Krishna.
The most auspicious thing is that which brings about the most auspicious transformation in our heart. It enriches us with the most auspicious desire to love Krishna and that is association of devotees. And the greatest unhappiness is that which strips us of the source of the highest happiness.
And the source of the highest happiness is the association in which we can associate of exalted devotees, whereby we can learn more and more about our beloved, our all attractive Lord. And lastly, we talk about the consequence was Chaitanya revealed his form of divine, divine couple. And we talk about the consequences and the relevance is not that we become proud, but we become grateful and we savor and we share.
Thank you very much. Shri Gauranga Mahaprabhu ki Jai. Do we have time for questions? Yes, we do have.
Anybody who has a question, please unmute yourself and ask a question, please. Hare Krishna, Chaitanya Chaturthi. This is Paramguru for us.
Very beautiful deliberation on this exalted topic. One of my personal favorites as well. I have actually two questions.
Maybe I will just ask one. If there is time, then I’ll ask the second one. The first question is on the description of the hierarchy.
The third level where the Sarva Dharman Parityajya Mamikam Shranam Vrajam. So the emphasis you placed on was the renunciation of duty. And one may not do it with proper realization because of which it is placed at that level.
And if we take that whole verse in its entirety, then the notion of Keval Bhakti can be understood even from that verse. Because Sarva Dharman Parityajya Mamikam Shranam Vrajam is also there together with that. So if it is done with proper realization, then that verse can communicate the fifth level, which is the Keval Bhakti.
So I want to hear from you how that is identified as external on the basis of probably improper understanding of that verse or improper application of this verse. OK, good point. So when we say that that was Sarva Dharman Parityajya, that is the culmination of the Bhagavad Gita.
And that is actually at the level of Keval Bhakti because it’s talking about Mamikam Shranam Vrajam also. So. So why is that verse not considered to be the highest level? Yes, I also had that question.
And I haven’t yet found an answer, which is, we could say, which is absolutely conclusive. But there are some thoughts I had, as I mentioned, one thought is that if we consider within the hierarchy, within the hierarchy, the verse that is quoted, the verse is quoted for a particular purpose. So within the hierarchy, how it’s going is, we do your duty.
We infuse our duty with some amount of devotion. But then we realize that actually in the world there is still entanglement. So what do we do? We renounce the world.
And then we realize the Brahman and then we realize beyond the Brahman is Bhagavan. And then we realize that that Bhagavan can be accessed. I don’t have to renounce the world for accessing the Bhagavan.
So that’s why we have Sthane Siddhashruti Gatam Tanuvan Manodhe, that wherever you just hear about Krishna, the important thing to access Krishna is not to renounce the world, is not to simply to do our duty or to renounce the duty. It is not to be in the world or to be out of the world. It is to be connected in the association of devotees through hearing.
So we can say that that verse is quoted in a particular context. And in that context, renunciation is what is stressed in the in the flow of the thought. That is why that verse is placed over there.
Now, if you consider verses in general, each verse can have multiple points within it. So, for example, we had Atmaram verse, Atmaram Ashtamunayo, that verse from the first canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, which Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has explained in many, many different ways. And the idea is that one verse can have many, many different applications based on different contexts.
So when someone quotes a verse, in what context they’re quoting it is very important. So, for example, I mentioned about this triangular desires. Now, is there a scriptural reference for that? I’m sometimes asked when I speak this.
It’s a common sense point. But one scriptural reference I found in Prabhupada’s works itself is Prabhupada quotes Sangat Sanjayate Kamaha. Now, and he says in association desires develop.
Now, if you look at the words in the original context, that is 262, Dhyayato Vishayan Pumsaha, Sangas Teshu Pujayate, Sangat Sanjayate Kamaha. There, actually Sangat doesn’t refer to, it is referring to attachment. When we are attached to something, when we contemplate something, desire develops.
Dhyayato Vishayan Pumsaha, Sangas Teshu Pujayate. When we associate with contemplate, we associate with something by contemplating on it, then desire develops. So what Prabhupada does is he decontextualizes that verse.
In the context of that verse, it is more of mental association with sense objects through contemplation. But Prabhupada decontextualizes that verse and he says that Sangat Sanjayate Kamaha, in association desires develop. So sometimes some verses may make a particular point in the context of their overall flow.
Sometimes the verses may make some other point in the context, outside that context. So if we consider, Prabhupada would quote for offering food to Krishna, he would quote the words, Yagya Srishtashina Sandhya Uchanpe Sarvakel Vishay. Now that’s a valid application of that verse.
However, look at the third chapter of the Bhagavad Gita. Krishna is talking about Yajna in terms of the fire sacrifices that are done so that there can be harmony between various levels of the universe. So Krishna is not exactly talking about doing a puja to offer food to Krishna.
So now Prabhupada is using that verse, that verse can have particular wisdom within the context. It can have different kind of wisdom also in the context. The principle is still applicable.
So same way, when we are, we are, say, placing a verse in a different context. In the original context of the text, the verse has a certain meaning. When we place that verse in another context, sometimes that may misrepresent the verse completely.
And that’s why sometimes we may have some Prabhupada quotes which seem to be very provocative in terms of today’s values of political correctness or something. But if we see, that’s a misunderstanding or misapplication of those verses completely. But in some ways, you could say that scriptural verses are like Lego toys, Lego toy pieces.
So within the scripture, those verses are put in particular arrangement to convey a particular meaning. But you could take that one verse or even one line from a verse and that’s like a Lego toy piece. And we place it in another framework and another toy is formed over it.
So now, whether that usage is valid or invalid, that has to be seen carefully. What is the meaning that will be constructed here? What was the meaning over there? And that requires careful thought. But that’s one reason why scriptural verses are so versatile.
That when we say Navarasa is the harmony, there is newer and newer Rasa. Because one reason why the newer and newer Rasa is that we can approach scripture from different contexts. If we read the Chaitanya Charitam five years ago and now we read it again, we will relate it in a much different way.
Why? Because the context of who is reading it has changed. Now we, just by the passage of time itself, we change. And if the passage of time is accompanied with the practice of sadhana, then definitely there is a change in our consciousness.
When we read the same book again, we find there is so much more to release over here. So we could say that when we come to scripture from a different context, we realize different points of the scripture. Now some people may, some people come with ulterior motive to misinterpret scripture or to put scripture, to read scripture according to their agenda.
And that can lead to problems. So we have to be careful. So I would say there is quoting verses in the original context, quoting verses in a different context and quoting verses completely out of context or opposite to the original context.
There are three different things in the original context, then outside the original context, but still while fulfilling the purpose of the scriptures. And then quoting them so out of context that we defeat the purpose of the scripture. So this particular quoting of the verse is in the second level.
So in the original context, it is talking about Kevala Bhakti, but in the context of this conversation, a part of that verse has been quoted to highlight the principle that just renunciation of beauty alone is not enough. OK. Thank you so much.
I think your answer is very satisfying. Happy to be of service to you. Thoughtful question.
Great Krishna Prabhu. Can I ask you a question? Yes, please. Prabhu, thank you for the class.
All glories to Sri Krishna Prabhupada. Prabhu, I really have deep gratitude for my good fortune to have been exposed to this tradition. So in that context, I’m trying to understand some of the things that you said in the class.
One was about intellectual transformation through transformation of values, and then mind and heart transformation through transformation of desires. Now I’m extrapolating from there. Is there a physical transformation too, Prabhu? And how important that is in terms of our cleanliness of our habits? Of course, I know the four regulative principles and all that, but in terms of even attire and wearing chandan and wearing a dhoti.
And then, you know, now my other question, second part of the question is, can this be done in any order? Or is there an order? Or, you know, how does this happen? OK. So is there an external transformation also along with the, say, the transformation of the level of the intelligence and the mind and the heart? This is a delicate question. And let’s focus first on the principle and then we’ll go to the specifics.
The principle is, yena kena prakarena manah krishna nivesayet. Somehow or the other, remember Krishna. That is the key principle.
Now, having said that as the key principle, now, how do we go about remembering Krishna? Each one of us is an individual in our own right. And we all have to, because we all come from particular backgrounds, we all have particular inspirations, particular, particular inclinations. So there is a certain level of individuality in how we can best remember Krishna.
So Niyamagraha is one of the dangers on the path of bhakti where what happens is either we reject the rules because we consider them external or we insist on the rules so much that we forget the principle. So we reject the rules because we consider them unimportant or we just neglect them completely. Sorry, we either neglect them completely or we insist on the letter and forgetting the spirit.
So let me explain this with a slide. This is when we follow, when we are trying to practice Krishna bhakti or share Krishna bhakti with others. The tradition is what comes from the past.
Then that tradition is coming from the past and the central circle is the living tradition. It is the expression of the tradition as it exists now. It exists slightly above the contemporary world, but it has to be linked with the contemporary world.
It cannot be so above the contemporary world. So the bottom circle is the contemporary world. So now the tradition needs to be linked with, the living tradition needs to be linked with the past.
That is, that is done through fidelity, through faithfulness. And the living tradition needs to be linked with the present, with the current world. And that has to be done through flexibility.
So flexibility means, for example, when Prabhupada came to America, he always said that I have not changed one thing. I just like a postman delivering the message. Prabhupada insisted on his fidelity and not as insisted.
He was faithful, no doubt. But at the same time, Prabhupada was flexible. The very first center which he built or which he started with the 22nd Avenue and that 22nd Avenue, what was it about? It was about, it was a simple storefront converted into a temple.
He wanted some people from India to sponsor the Sahyam and they were ready to sponsor, but they said we want to build a traditional temple. Prabhupada said, you know, Indian government do not allow that much foreign exchange to come. No, if you’re not building a traditional temple, we’re not interested.
So they lost the opportunity. Prabhupada converted a storefront into a temple and that did not follow the traditional architectural rules. But that center actually fulfilled the purpose of a temple far more than what traditionally conforming architectural temples might have performed.
Because the glorified Krishna attracted people to Krishna. So Prabhupada was flexible also. So the point here is fidelity connects us with the tradition.
Flexibility connects us with the contemporary world. And a living tradition has to have both. So what happens is that in every tradition there are conservatives and there are liberals.
The conservatives are primarily concerned about fidelity. This is how it was done in the past. And this is how we should continue doing it.
And the liberals are concerned about their flexibility. This is where people are at and we need to reach out to them. If we don’t reach out to them, what is the use of doing things? So if we are only having fidelity without flexibility, then what happens is the tradition becomes too disconnected from the world.
Then it just becomes like a museum exhibit. That means, oh, this is how people were living in the past. This is how they were practicing Krishna bhakti.
But nowadays nobody is practicing it. There is one devotee recently. He is writing a paper.
He said probably by 2050, the way our movement is going, we will write, by 2050 we will write the obituary of the last Western devotee in our movement. ISKCON will become a completely Indian movement. Because the way we are going, we are not able to attract any Western people.
So do we want that? So in the Western world, we will just become, once it was a multicultural movement, now it has become an Indian movement. So fidelity without flexibility will make us a museum exhibit. So that is the danger of being too conservative.
On the other hand, if you are too liberal, if there is flexibility without fidelity, then we will just become another part of the material world. We will just become consumed by the contemporary culture. We will become a fashion trend.
So we need to have both fidelity and flexibility. That is what keeps it living and keeps it a tradition. So now coming to your specific question about externals, say whether it is wearing a particular dress, wearing a particular tilak, wearing a particular kanthi mala.
Now, how important are each one of these? First thing is definitely they are not unimportant. They’re not unimportant. The externals can help us to also develop the internals.
At the same time, just because the externals help us to develop the internals, does that mean necessarily that those same externals will help everyone to develop the internals? That is something which is a different question. So if we see within the history of our tradition also, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s followers went to Manipur. And Manipur was probably one of the few states in India which was actually almost entirely Vaishnav state.
There was Vaishnav bhakti all over the world, all over the country in India. But prominent, so prominent was only in that state. Now, what happened is, so for generations, there are Manipuri devotees who were followers of Lord Chaitanya.
They were worshipping, they were doing Gaudiya Vaishnavism. They were practicing Gaudiya Vaishnavism. And then our movement went there and we started a center.
And our movement’s devotees, they started telling these people who had been born multiple generations, they were Gaudiya Vaishnavas, that, you know, if you don’t wear dhoti kurta like this, if you don’t put pilaf like this, if you don’t wear kanti mala like this, if you don’t do like this, then you are not actually a devotee. Well, you might have been a devotee for 10-15 years and they have been devotees for multiple generations. So, immediately so presumptuous.
So the point is that when Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s followers went to Manipur and they preached in Manipur, they didn’t expect the Manipuri devotees to give up their dress, their way of living just to practice bhakti. When you talk about way of living, there are many things within it. There are some aspects of the culture which are anti-devotional.
Some aspects of the culture which are non-devotional. Some aspects of culture which are pro-devotional. So those which are anti-devotional, they need to be given up.
So, we know that Bhakti Samudand Maharaj was from Manipur and he actually had this Manipuri kirtans, Manipuri performances which would happen. And they added to the richness of bhakti culture. Many of the festivals in Mayapur and other places, he had them go all over the world to perform Manipuri dance.
It was a Manipuri devotional dance. If they had given up their Manipuri culture and simply adopted the Bengali way of dancing and doing kirtans, which we normally do in ISKCON, then that aspect of the culture would not be an added attraction. So, the point is, cultural diversity is very much included in bhakti.
Now, where does diversity lead to discord? Where does diversity lead to disconnection? That has to be carefully understood. So, the principle I’ll give in conclusion is that the key thing is the internal transformation. And there has to be the appropriate externals that foster the internal transformation.
So now, what will be the appropriate externals? That may vary according to culture. So, every somewhat spiritual tradition, they will encourage modest dressing, for example. Now, what might be modest dressing in the West might be different from what is modest dressing in India.
When the Britishers came to India, at that time there was something called the Victorian Age. And if you study the history of Britain, Victorian morality is often quite lampooned. Now, those people are so puritanic.
So, when the Victorian people came to India, they wrote books about India. And one of the things that comes so common is that these Indian women have no sense of chastity, purity, morality. What? You may say.
This is that they wear dresses which expose their midriff to everyone. They wear dresses in which their feet and their ankles can be seen by everyone. This is obnoxious.
Now, we may say, is this the kettle calling the cat black? Well, in their culture at that time, for a woman to expose her legs was considered almost that if she is exposing her legs, that indicates that it’s a come to me message. That’s what was done by society girls. So, India is a hot country.
Nobody wears footwear in terms of foot clothes. So, it’s not just women, it’s not just men, nobody wears that unless it’s cold. So, they were imposing their cultural standards on Indians and they’re saying, oh, these Indian women are so unchaste.
And we Indians may look at Western women and they may wear a particular dress and say, this is so unchaste. This is so impure. But even in the Western culture, there is there is modest dressing and there is a modest dressing.
So, rather than focusing on the particulars of the dress, you can look at the principle. The external should be such that they foster the internal. So, the the traditionalist.
So, if the conservatives say that these are the externals that are fostered internals and therefore, everybody should follow this. Well, maybe, maybe not. The liberals, they say, actually, the externals don’t matter.
The internals only matter. Therefore, whatever externals are there, that’s OK. Well, maybe, maybe not.
Now, some externals may not foster the internals. If somebody wears very revealing clothes, then they are not in bodily consciousness. They say, this is just the way I dress.
It’s not likely they are themselves going to go into bodily consciousness and they are going to put others in bodily consciousness. So there are limits to how conservative we can be and there are limits to how liberal we can be. So the externals need to be chosen in such a way that the internals are fostered.
And for some people, continuing with the external as they were in the tradition is the best way to foster the internals. For some people doing some adaptive adjustments so that people they can they can focus their attention to the internals. That may be appropriate.
Does it answer the question? Yes. Yes, Prabhu. It did.
It was very clear for me. Thank you. So, shall we stop here? If anyone has any questions, maybe this is the last chance.
Otherwise, we can, we can wind up here. OK. OK, thank you for such a wonderful, philosophical and quite thoughtful class.
Very, very educated classroom. We really relished the whole, the entire class. And this has set a trend now because, of course, going forward, I think whenever we have such interesting topics, especially with any tattva, we would request you that kindly enlighten us on those topics.
Yes. However, I think we also understand that our time zones are different, but we do consider that in mind and we may keep some extra buffer time so that devotees can have some question answers session. So that they can clarify the doubts and strengthen their philosophy.
OK. I think I take this opportunity once again, Prabhu, and on behalf of entire ISKCON Boston congregation, I deeply appreciate your association and your enlightening lecture on the Gaurila, especially the Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and the Ramananda Raya Samvat, which is very complex, but you have actually very beautifully analysed and simplified it. Thank you, Prabhu.
I really appreciate that. Once again, our deepest gratitude to you, Prabhu. Thank you for this wonderful services.
Kindly. Kindly gratitude by loudly chanting Haribol once for his grace Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Haribol.
Haribol. Haribol. Haribol.
Haribol. Thank you. Hare Krishna.
Hare Krishna. For those who want to stay in touch with Prabhu, there is the spirituals.com. Through that website, you can you can connect with him. And also Prabhu has one more site, which is an official website of him, chaitanyacharan.com. So please visit these websites.
You can actually get more resources of Prabhu. And if anybody wants any of his books, so kindly let me know. I have some copies of his of all his books I can share with you.
OK, thank you. There are a couple of other websites. There is GitaDaily.com where I write every day on a small 300 word reflection on the Bhagavad Gita.
I have pasted that over there in the chat box. And there is another website I started a few months ago. It’s called SpiritualWordsDaily.com where everybody who wants to improve their vocabulary and their spirituality simultaneously.
That’s a website where I take one word of a graduate or postgraduate level. And then I illustrate how to use it using three sentences, one based on the Ramayana, one based on the Mahabharata and one based on the Bhagavad Gita. That’s SpiritualWordsDaily.com. So GitaDaily and SpiritualWordsDaily.com. Thank you very much.
Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna dear Prabhu. Hare Guru.
God bless you. Hare Guru. Hare Haribol.
Hare Krishna. So for our forthcoming sessions, please stay tuned and kindly take a look at our website and also on the chat groups. You will be updated regularly.
Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna. Thank you.
Dear Gurus, I just have a couple of things because I think we, since we had this session.