What is the position of Lord Shiva?
Transcription (edited) by- Keshavgopal Das
Question- It is difficult to summarize ISKCON’s position and I have not seen any official note from ISKCON about the difference between Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu. There is a reference in Skanda Purana which mentions that there is no difference between Lord Vishnu, Lord Brahma, and Lord Shiva. However, ISKCON’s position is that they are different. Lord Shiva is a demigod, a devotee, and a servant (or best devotee) of Lord Vishnu. Kindly explain.
Answer (short)–
- Relationship between Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu is of simultaneous oneness and difference. They are the manifestations of the same absolute truth but perform different functions.
- Lord Shiva is in-charge of mode of ignorance (tamoguna) and attracts conditioned souls who have natures in mode of ignorance.
- Vallabhacharya story from 500 years ago tells us that Lord Krishna is most dear to Lord Shiva.
- Various Bhagvad-gita verses tells us that demigod worshippers also get their desires fulfilled through Lord Krishna only.
- Important is not who is Supreme, but that we show our sincerity to the Supreme and pray for their guidance.
Answer (long)- In brief, the relationship between Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu is one of achintya bhedabheda (simultaneous oneness and difference). Sometimes some neophyte devotees while having some discussions or debates may emphasize a point of Lord Shiva being a devotee and a servant of Lord Vishnu (reference from Srimad Bhagvatam 12th Canto – vaishnavanam yatha shambhu i.e. among all Vaishnavas Lord Shiva is the greatest). At the same time, in SB there is also the pastime of Attreya Rishi getting Dattatreya as his son. In this pastime all three Deities appear and say that there is no difference between Us. Similarly, there are several places in the SB where Lord Shiva is glorified as if He is the supreme Lord. When samudra manthan leela is about to take place and the poison comes out, the devatas go to Lord Shiva asking for help, at that time the prayers offered to Lord Shiva indicate that He is the Supreme Lord Himself. But there is also a verse in Padma Purana (PP), which says that if one considers Lord Vishnu and other demigods to be same, he is a pashandi (an atheist). At the same time Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami in Chaitanya Charitamrta quotes from the Vedic scriptures, to say how one who considers Lord Shiva to be different from Lord Krishna is also an offender. Chaitanya Bhagvat also reiterates this point. The PP has many recensions and some of the verses ascribed to PP are not found in some of the recensions. Important point here is that we should not take one verse out of context, emphasize only that and downplay everything else that is said in the scriptures.
The essential message of Vedic literature is achintya bhedabheda. This means that there is simultaneous oneness and difference between Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva and this difference is inconceivable. The inconceivability does not mean that we cannot use our intelligence to understand it but our intelligence cannot understand it completely.
The one absolute truth manifests in multifarious ways to uplift the conditioned souls. When the one absolute truth manifests to control the mode of goodness it is called as Lord Vishnu, for mode of passion- Lord Brahma, and for mode of ignorance – Lord Shiva. Same absolute truth is manifesting in different ways. In that sense there is no difference between Them. This is the abheda (non-difference) part on how three exalted Deities is to be understood. The bheda (difference) part is that They have certain specific and distinctive functions – Lord Brahma is in charge for creation, Lord Shiva for destruction, and Lord Vishnu for maintenance. Because these particular functions are associated with particular modes and these particular Deities look after those particular functions, accordingly they attract certain kind of worshippers. Generally, if someone is in mode of ignorance if they would be attracted to worship someone they would be attracted to worship Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva also dresses and behaves to some extent out of His compassion in a way that will attract such worshippers. He lives in a crematorium, has a snake around His body, apparently drink bhang, and puts ashes on His body. This is to be seen as absolute truth’s compassion to manifest in a form in which Supreme Lord can attract conditioned souls towards Himself.
In Bhagavad-gita (BG) seventh chapter four verses (20 to 23) are critical to understand the complexity and compassion underlying demigod worship. In the seventh chapter, first Krishna mentions about people who do not surrender to Him (BG 7.15). Then from BG 7.16-19 He talks about those people who surrender to Him either with pure devotional desires or with not so pure desires. Then in BG 7.20-23 He talks about those who surrender to one of His manifestations i.e. demigods. And in BG 7.24 He talks about those who surrender to another manifestation of Him i.e. the brahman. He says that those who worship demigods do so out of material desire (kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ BG7.20) and since their intelligence is destroyed with material desires, they worship the demigods. Then Krishna describes in BG 7.21, whichever form (tanum) of demigod one worships that faith I only make unshakable (acalāṁ). When a person wants to worship Lord Shiva or Mother Durga, it is Lord Krishna only who makes the faith unshakable. Such worshippers worship such Deities according to their nature.
Krishna makes such faith stable in three ways – (i) as supersoul in the heart He inspires to worship a particular devata (ii) That person is attracted to a particular scripture that glorifies that devata (iii) that particular devata gives the fruits to the worshipper but it is ultimately Krishna only Who is giving the fruit.
Let us try to understand with the help of a story in the Bible. There is a story – prodigal son- that when the son of a wealthy father goes away, the son suffers and comes back home, and the father welcomes him- a sign of great love of father for the son. But the Vedic scriptures describe that the father’s love is so great that when the son goes away, the father not only accompanies him invisibly as supersoul, but also sends his representatives. Let us assume a case in which the father is a king and the son has gone to another kingdom and there he serves a master and suffers, then the king who understands the mentality of the son, sends one of his ministers having certain characteristics which will attract the mentality of the son. The minister meets the son and tells him that you are serving a master and getting so little. But if you work for me I’ll give you whatever you want, why don’t you work for me? The son gets attracted and comes back with the minister to the kingdom. Once he is back in the kingdom the minister offers him the salary and perks which actually are coming from the King himself (mayaiva vihitān hi tān BG 7.22 – but in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me (Krishna) alone). The son continues to serve the minister, but in this way the son has come back to the father’s kingdom and the son is indirectly under father’s care. Demigods are like ministers of Lord Krishna or Lord Vishnu and through the process of demigod worship, Krishna ensures that His lost children come back within the house of the Vedas. When they are in the house of the Vedas, then gradually their wisdom may awaken and they may turn to Krishna directly. We should see the system of demigod worship as a system of compassion.
The minister in this example actually equates with demigods like Surya, Chandra, etc. But in case of Lord Shiva, the minister in this example is like the alter-ego of the king only. Sometimes this manifestation acts like a Supreme Lord, sometimes this manifestation acts like servant of the Supreme Lord. This is mainly because Lord Shiva and Mother Durga are in-charge of the material world. Therefore Lord Shiva fully deserves the title of Vishvanatha. He is the Lord of the Universe and in this capacity He can act as Supreme Lord.
There is a story of Vallabhacharya who was a great devotee of both Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva. At one time he was very distressed with ups and downs of life and went to temple of Lord Shiva and started praying fervently. Touched by his prayers Lord Shiva appeared and asked him his wish. Vallabhacharya was surprised but since he was a pure hearted devotee, Lord Shiva appeared (this happened around 500 year ago). Instead of asking Lord Shiva some material desire he asked – please give me what is most dear to You. Lord Shiva smiled broadly and gave Him Deity of Lord Krishna. Since that time Vallabhacharya became a Vaishnava but never rejected Lord Shiva. In fact, he considered Lord Shiva his guru.
If somebody worships Lord Shiva with a pure desire, Lord Shiva will ensure that person will attain highest liberation either by directing the person to Lord Krishna/Vishnu in this life or at the end of life by chanting the names of Lord Ram in his ears. But if someone worships Lord Shiva with material desires Lord Shiva will reciprocate and fulfill those desires and there will be a gradual process of purification that will take place.
To summarize, Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are simultaneously one and different. They are one in the sense that they are the manifestation of the same absolute truth but for different functions and different characteristics controlling different modes. At the same time the whole principle of demigod worship is meant to elevate the lost conditioned souls. I explained this point with the help of BG verses and the “king-minister-lost son” example.
For all practical purposes at our level of devotion if we are not clear about who is the Supreme, the most important thing that we need to do is whoever the Supreme is we should show the Supreme our sincerity. We can pray if we have some faith in Lord Vishnu, some faith in Lord Shiva, we can pray to both of them, please guide me. Please help me understand what is the best way to serve You, what is the correct understanding. The Lord will reciprocate to our sincerity and He will guide us as it happened in case of Vallabhacharya. If you have any further questions we can discuss further.
Transcript
This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna. Question is differentiation between Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva. Here it is difficult to summarize the ISKCON position as I did not see any official notebook, note or book about ISKCON for this.
So there is a reference given about from the Skanda Purana about how there is no difference between Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu and Lord Brahma whereas ISKCON seems to say that they are different and Lord Shiva is a demigod, Lord Shiva is a devotee and Lord Shiva is a servant of Lord Vishnu, the best devotee. The answer in brief is that the relationship between Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu is one of Achaitya Bheda Bheda. Achaitya Bheda Bheda means there is simultaneous oneness and difference.
Sometimes some neophyte devotees while having some discussions or debates may emphasize the point of Lord Shiva being a devotee and a servant of Lord Vishnu and there is the verse in the Srimad Bhagavatam Vaishnavana Mitha Shambhu in the twelfth canto, among all the Vaishnavas, Lord Shambhu is the greatest. At the same time in the Srimad Bhagavatam there is also the description of the past time of Atreya Rishi getting Dattatreya as his son. So at that time all the three deities come and they say that there is no difference between us.
Similarly there are several places in the Bhagavatam where Lord Shiva is glorified as if he is the supreme lord. That means when the Amrutvantan Leela is about to take place and the poison comes out, so when devatas go to Lord Shiva to ask him for help, at that time the prayers offered to him indicate that he is like the supreme lord himself. So now there is a verse in the Padma Purana which seems to say that one who considers Vishnu and other devi-gods to be the same is a Pashyandi, is an atheist.
At the same time Krishnadaswamy also quotes from the Vedic scriptures to say how one who considers Lord Shiva to be different from Lord Krishna is also an offender. Chaitanya Bhagavat also reiterates this point. Now the Padma Purana has many recensions and some of the verses are not found, some of the verses ascribed to the Padma Purana are not found in some of the recensions.
So the important point here is not to take one verse out of the context and emphasize that and downplay everything else that is said in the scriptures. So the essential message of the Vedic literature is Achintya Bheda Bhed. Achintya Bheda Bhed means that there is simultaneous oneness and difference between Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva and this difference is inconceivable.
So the inconceivability does not mean that we cannot use our intelligence to understand it but our intelligence cannot understand it completely. The one absolute truth manifests in multifarious ways for uplifting the conditioned souls. So when that one absolute truth manifests to control the mode of goodness that manifestation the absolute truth is called Lord Vishnu and when that same absolute truth when it manifests to control the mode of passion is Brahma.
The same absolute truth when it manifests to control the mode of ignorance is Lord Shiva. So it is same absolute truth who is manifesting in different ways and in that sense there is no difference between. So this is how the Abheda part, the non-difference between these three exalted deities is to be understood.
But the Bheda part is that they have certain specific and distinctive functions. So as is famously known Lord Brahma is primarily in charge of creation, Lord Vishnu in charge of maintenance and Lord Shiva in charge of destruction. So because these particular functions are associated with particular modes and because these particular deities look after those particular functions so accordingly they attract certain kinds of worshippers.
So in general those who are in the mode of ignorance if they are attracted to worship someone they will be attracted to worship Lord Shiva and Lord Shiva also dresses and behaves to some extent out of his compassion in a way that will attract them. He tends to live in a crematorium and have a snake around his body and apparently drink Bhang or put ashes on his body. So this is actually the absolute truth’s compassion to manifest in a form in which the Supreme Lord can attract the conditioned soul towards himself.
So in the Bhagavad Gita 7th chapter 20th verse Lord Krishna describes that 20th, 21st, 22nd and 23rd these four verses are critical in understanding the complexity and the compassion underlying demigod worship. So first thing Krishna says in the 7th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita first Krishna talks about those people who surrender to him at 7.15. First he talks about those people who don’t surrender to him at 7.15 then 17.16 to 19 he talks about those people who surrender to him either with pure devotional desire or with not so pure desires and then 7.20 to 23 he talks about those who surrender to one of his manifestations the demigods and 7.24 talks about those who surrender to another manifestation of his that is the Brahman and there in so he says that those who worship demigods they do so because of material desires their intelligence is destroyed by material desires and that’s why they worship the demigods and then he describes yo yo yam yam tanum bhakta shraddhaya architam icchati tasya tasya achalam shraddham tam eva vidham yaham so whatever whichever form one worships yo yo yam yam tanum bhakta tanu means form so whichever form one worships shraddhaya architam icchati tasya tasya achalam shraddham that faith i make unshakable so it is krishna only when a person wants to worship shiva when a person wants to worship he is attracted to that particular worship why according to one’s nature and when he’s attracted to worship according to one’s nature to a particular devata krishna makes that faith stable so he makes that faith stable in three ways one is as a super soul within the heart he inspires that person to worship a particular devata second is that that person is attracted to the particular scriptures which glorify that devata and by reading those scriptures and hearing the mahima of that particular devata his faith becomes stabilized and third is that that particular devata gives the fruits to the worshipper but it is krishna ultimately who is giving the fruit so if a wealthy father’s son has left home and gone away in the christian bible there is a story the prodigal son the son suffers and comes back home and the father welcomes him and that is demonstrated as the sign of great love of the father for the son but the vedic scriptures describe that the father’s love is so great that as the son goes away the father accompanies him invisibly as a super soul but the father also sends his representatives so when the son has gone to some other kingdom besides the father is a king and the son has gone to some other kingdom and he is serving some other master and suffering so the father sends he observes the mentality of his son and sends one of his ministers who has a mentality that attract his son and then this minister goes and tells him tells his son you are serving this person you’re getting this much whatever you want you want some material things i will give you why don’t you come and work for me and he becomes attracted and he comes back to the kingdom when he comes back to the kingdom and starts serving the minister and the minister rewards him his salary and the so actually it is i who am giving it to you but the when the demigods give it is krishna who is giving just like when the minister gives the salary it is the king who is giving the minister the money so that he can give the salary so the son continues to serve the minister but in this way the son has come back to the father’s kingdom and at least indirectly he’s under his father’s care so similarly the demigods are like the ministers of lord krishna lord vishnu and through the principle of demigod worship krishna ensures that his lost children come back within the house of the vedas when they are in the house of the vedas gradually their wisdom may awaken and they may turn to krishna directly just like the son realizing that let me serve my father directly let me serve the king directly instead of serving the minister so the principle of demigod worship is ultimately a system of compassion now the minister example is relevant in a more precise sense for devatas like surya and chandra but when it comes to lord shiva the minister in this case is like a alter ego of the king that means it is another manifestation of the king only so sometimes this manifestation acts with the supreme lord sometimes manifestation acts like a servant of the supreme lord why is that because lord shiva and durga mother durga are in charge of the butter world and that’s why lord shiva is fully deserving of the title of shvanath he is the lord of the universe and in this capacity the lord of the universe he can act as a supreme lord he can be referred to as a supreme lord so there is the story of vallabhacharya who was a great devotee of both lord shiva and lord krishna and at one time he was very distressed by the ups and downs of life and he went to temple of lord shiva and started praying fervently at that time touched by his prayers lord shiva appeared and asked him what do you want so vallabhacharya was so surprised this was just 500 years ago that lord shiva himself appeared but somehow because he was a devotee a pure-hearted devotee so instead of asking lord shiva to fulfill some material desires to solve material problems he asked lord shiva please give me that which is the most dear to me lord shiva smiled broadly and gave him a deity of lord krishna and since that time vallabhacharya became a vaishnava but he never rejected lord shiva in fact he considered lord shiva to be a his guru and he respected lord shiva so if somebody worships lord shiva with a pure desire then lord shiva will ensure that that person will attain the highest liberation either by directing him to krishna or vishnu in this particular life only or at the end of life by chanting the names of lord ram in his years that the person returns to vaikuntha but if somebody worships lord shiva with material desires lord shiva will reciprocate and fulfill those material desires and there will be a gradual process of purification that will take place so to summarize lord shiva and lord vishnu are simultaneously one and different one in the sense that they are manifestation of the same absolute truth but for different functions and with different characteristics connected controlling different modes at the same time this whole principle of demigod worship and is meant to elevate the lost conditioned souls so the bhagavad gita also described that with the i explained that with the example of the minister and the king and the lost son so for all practical purposes at our level of worship at our level of devotion if we are not clear about who is the supreme the most important thing that we need to do is whoever is the supreme we should show the supreme our sincerity so we can pray if we have faith some faith in lord vishnu some faith in lord shiva we can pray to both of them please guide me please help me understand what is the best way to serve you what is the correct understanding and the lord will reciprocate with the sincerity and he will guide us as it happened in the case of vallabhacharya if you have any further questions we can discuss further what is the process by which the false