Why does ISKCON stop its devotees from associating with Gaudiya Math devotees?

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
so why are we as iskcon devotees told not to associate gaudiya mat especially when we live not in the institution but outside we have to maybe work with or live with or be friends with different people in society and in many ways the gaudiya mat devotees share so many of our practices so why can’t we associate with them I’ll answer this question in three broad parts one is the philosophical second is the historical and the third is the interpersonal philosophically we understand that there are different paths to elevating our consciousness and attaining Krishna and if we can be so broad minded that Prabhupada even said that Jesus Christ is the son of God and he is our guru because he gave up his life for the service of God so now there are significant differences between Christianity and Gaudiya Vaishnavism some may consider those differences to be small some may consider them to be big but there are differences undoubtedly as compared to that gaudiya mat is almost like a if Christianity is like a distant cousin gaudiya mat is almost like a close cousin or a close brother so certainly it’s not that we consider that somehow we alone are going back to Godhead and nobody else is on a right path to Godhead or anything like that ultimately it’s not the institutional affiliation that will take us back to Godhead it’s the heart’s disposition that will take us back to Godhead so if we have developed devotion for Krishna whichever path we are following we will go towards Krishna and if somebody’s association stimulates devotion within us then that can also help us go towards Krishna in that sense, philosophically there may be differences between something which Prabhupada stressed and something which other gaudiya mats may not stress but those differences do not undermine the fact that we are all part of the same tradition and there are huge overarching similarities in at least our overall philosophy and a significant number of practices which is a specific way in which we practice quantity we practice may be different historically religion is also a business not a business in a commercial sense but a business in the sense that religion is a means by which souls are to be attracted towards God and historically those religious paths that are the closest to one’s own path are also the closest competitors to one’s potential audiences and somebody who is a Muslim or a Christian that person may or may not become a Hare Krishna and somebody who is a committed Christian they are unlikely to become a Hare Krishna at all but somebody who is likely to become a Krishna devotee now for that person gaudiya mat and ISKCON may be almost close choices which one to go to and because the two are close competitors so often a certain amount of tension comes up among the close competitors when the five Pandavas married Draupadi after they came back to the kingdom and they were given Khandavprastha Narada Muni came to meet them and Narada Muni is a renounced sage and he is coming to meet Pandavas who are grahasthas but the main thing that he talked about with them in the meeting was that Draupadi should not become the cause of dissension between the five of you he told a story of how there were two demons Sunda and Upasunda who were brothers and they had got a vow from Brahma that no one would be able to kill them except each other and they were such friends that they would never die and finally they were harassing the gods and the gods went to Brahma and Brahma created a beautiful Apsara Tilottama and as soon as the two demons saw this Apsara they said, both of them said she will be my wife and your sister and both of them started fighting with each other and eventually both of them killed each other so Narada Muni told this story and he said that you have to create a serious protocol to prevent dissension from coming in and then the Pandavas did create a serious protocol that if one of them is with Draupadi others will not come in each of them will have quality time with Draupadi and others will not intervene at that time and if anyone intervenes then that person will go on exile for one year it is a radical rule and actually Pandava Arjuna went on exile for one year because there was a Brahmana whose wealth was stolen and Arjuna wanted to help that Brahmana but his weapons were in the chamber where Yudhishthira and Draupadi were sitting and talking with each other so he went in, apologized for barging in Yudhishthira understandingly smiled when he explained the situation he took his weapons and went out he helped the Brahmana but then he came back and said I am going to the forest now for one year Yudhishthira said you don’t have to go he said no this is a vow and Yudhishthira said no the younger brother is like a son so this rule is only for the older brother coming in when the younger brother is with his wife not for the younger brother coming in when the older brother is we cannot play with these rules like this he said I am going so I give this example that sometimes even among the closest of friends or relatives if there is some cause of competition if it is not dealt with carefully it can lead to dissension and historically right from the time of Prabhupada there were some of his god brothers who tried to take away some of Prabhupada’s disciples by telling his disciples what Bhaktivinoda Swami was doing was not proper he tells only basic things you can tell him more advanced things and Prabhupada was very concerned and then he did speak strongly against some of his god brothers at that time now Prabhupada’s strong statements were for a particular purpose it was to protect his disciples one particular god brother he said he is an envious snake it is a very strong criticism to make but then eventually that god brother passed away and then devotees came and asked Prabhupada where did he go he thought that he is an envious snake he has offended Prabhupada he must have gone to hell and Prabhupada was very grave and Prabhupada said he went back to godhead he said my spiritual master is very powerful and he served my spiritual master faithfully he served my spiritual master so spiritual master took him back to godhead so then Prabhupada told I can say these things about them but you can’t you just keep a distance from them and then in the last days of his life when Prabhupada’s god brothers came to meet him and Prabhupada with folded hands apologized to his god brother he said during the course of preaching sometimes we have to say so many things for the purpose of preaching so if I have offended any of you please forgive me I am Mahapatit I am very fallen and his god brother said Prabhupada you never committed any offenses they would call Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami they would call him Swami Maharaj Swami Maharaj you never committed any offenses and you are not Mahapatit you are Mahapatit Pavan you are the deliverer of the greatly fallen people so it was a very gracious and a very devotional interaction which Prabhupada had so this means that so that is the I have just given a broad contours of the history so what had happened during Prabhupada’s times happened subsequently also so Iskcon and Gaudiya Math need to have some kind of protocol so that there is no unnecessary competition and dissension just like the Pandavas had a protocol with respect to how they would interact with Draupadi unfortunately we don’t have that kind of protocol and in many ways Iskcon some of our Iskcon’s leaders there are three broad issues here one is sometimes Iskcon’s leaders themselves some of the top leaders have had difficulties some of them have not followed the principles some of the Gurus have fallen so the Iskcon devotees feel that some Iskcon devotees whose faith was shaken or shattered by this they feel that maybe nobody in Iskcon can give me shelter so maybe somebody who is who is born and brought in a traditional Brahminical or pure background they will never fall and I should take their shelter so feeling like this some devotees were attracted towards Gaudiya Math and when devotees are initiated in Iskcon and they are initiated by a Vaishnava Guru for another Vaishnava Guru to initiate them is not according to the tradition of Vaishnavism also so that created some bad feelings second is that some devotees feel that in Iskcon we don’t talk sufficiently about Krishna and Krishna Leela we just keep talking about basics and some Gaudiya Math devotees also propagate the notion by talking about esoteric pastimes of Krishna and more advanced Krishna Leela and they say that we will tell you more about Krishna you will learn from us how to love Krishna you won’t learn this in Iskcon and saying this they make it seem like a hierarchy Iskcon takes you to a particular level and then Gaudiya Math will take you further so again in this case Gaudiya Math is not properly you could say respecting the fact that Iskcon is also an expression of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition and Iskcon can also take people all the way to Krishna of course it’s not Gaudiya Math it’s Krishna who is taking people to Krishna but Krishna can act through Iskcon and through Gaudiya Math also and thirdly because in Iskcon Shri Prabhupada instituted certain standards which are significantly higher than what are there in most Gaudiya Maths so some Iskcon devotees feel that if it’s the same tradition then let us take initiation over there ultimately we get the same affiliation we are going the same path itself and some devotees take it up not because they are inspired by a Gaudiya Math leader or by a Gaudiya Math atmosphere it’s not because they are positively inspired over there it’s just because they feel that the easier way and now this also creates this also creates further tension now I won’t say that because Gaudiya Math devotees also sometimes say that you don’t have to you don’t have to wait for all that you can just take initiation easily now I wouldn’t say that all the fault is only in Gaudiya Math Iskcon has sometimes overreacted and sometimes Iskcon has in some strong terms criticized some very senior and respected Gaudiya Math leaders and has even tried to ban some Gaudiya Math books which we should see more as a contextual overreaction rather than a philosophical principle it is suppose a mother has the experience of a child of a child being kidnapped and some other child is saved and the child comes back and or that child is lost and then she has another child and the child tends to wander off here and there the mother may say that now anyone don’t talk with strangers, don’t go anywhere with strangers, as strangers are kidnappers a mother may point to a particular person and say that person you see, that person also might be a kidnapper he may look like a nice person but he may be a kidnapper so now this is said by the mother to protect the child if the child goes to that person and says are you a kidnapper? my mother told me you are a kidnapper now that’s not the purpose, that’s not the point of what the mother is saying so if we see the restrictions that ISKCON sometimes has imposed as more of historical reactions rather than as philosophical injunctions then we can see the intent without getting too caught in harping over the specifics so historically I say there is a history and somehow sooner or later ISKCON and Gaudiya Madhya if we are to live peacefully we have to come to some protocol about how the world is a big place and there are so many souls in the world we don’t have to be fighting for taking people from each other but this is also a challenge ISKCON feels that getting people to start from scratch and get them to develop faith in Krishna that is a big challenge and after ISKCON does that then if Gaudiya Madhya says take those people away to them then then it is a problem so this is the historical institutional situation and there are I know many senior ISKCON leaders who have very warm relationships with many Gaudiya Madhya leaders and I also know there are many senior Gaudiya Madhya leaders who are at one level very they are very learned they are very charismatic but then they also seem sometimes to be like hunting for flowers in ISKCON I remember a very respected Gaudiya Madhya sanyasi once there was a controversy going on in ISKCON and some devotees had targeted me so that sanyasi came to know what he wrote to me he said if ever you get fried out with ISKCON the doors of my movement are open for you so I had a lot of respect for that sanyasi before but after that I never corresponded with him so even on historical level how do we deal with each other all of us are volunteers and ISKCON is an inspirational organization, ISKCON cannot become a legislative body it doesn’t have the authority to become a legislative body so in that sense ISKCON cannot police its members maybe those who are temple residents and financially dependent on ISKCON maybe those people but not others but we have to see how best we can practice our Krishna Bhakti in with as less disruption as possible so if we are in general unless somebody has been brought up in a traditional Vaishnav, Gaudiya Vaishnav or at least a Brahminical family for most of us we need contemporary association to practice Bhakti we need like-minded people, we might get we might, I am not sure whether we will we might get some very cultured advanced senior sanyasis in Gaudiya Math but that is not the association we are going to get on a daily basis on a daily basis or on a regular weekly basis or regular basis we will need association of people who are at a level similar to us who understand the kind of challenges we face in our life and who can help us to meet those challenges and in my understanding the broad community of ISKCON devotees can offer a much better social support system to a sadhaka than can Gaudiya Math so if if somebody is deciding which which organization to go to I said that at a personal level there are three different situations say one is already initiated and committed to a particular organization, say somebody already initiated in ISKCON, second is that somebody has been introduced and cultivated in ISKCON but is now thinking about whether to be connected with ISKCON or Gaudiya Math third would be that somebody who is just being introduced to broad Gaudiya Vaishnavism and is exploring ISKCON and Gaudiya Math both so if somebody is initiated and already in ISKCON then for them it’s important to understand that if we have taken a path that we have to stay committed to that path to go back to Krishna just like if we take admission in a particular university, if somebody say Oxford and Cambridge are very big universities in England and both of them are esteemed universities but if somebody is registered for a degree in Oxford then they are repeatedly going to Cambridge and attending classes over there and interacting with the professors over there well, if they want to learn something specific, it’s okay but they have to commit to the examination process in Oxford and they are going to get their degree from Oxford so similarly if you are initiated in ISKCON then it’s best that we stay committed to the practices of Krishna Consciousness as taught in ISKCON and within ISKCON also we have a huge variety in terms of we have devotees with wide variety of dispositions wide variety of inclinations and whatever is our particular need we can find some Vaishnavas in ISKCON who can address that need whether it is for Krishna Leela, whether it is for Krishna Tattva whether it is for whatever if somebody is cultivated in ISKCON and is now considering going to Gaudiya Math then it’s important that to know that the grass always seems greener on the other side so if one is positively inspired by some Gaudiya Math leader and one feels that generally when we take message from someone the personal inspiration of the Guru is important but that is not the only thing that is important because all due respect to the disciple actually the amount of association that the disciple is going to get from the spiritual master directly is going to be very limited and most of the practical life of the devotee is going to be in the association of the broad community of devotees and we could say at best in the association of the Gaud family so by this association we look not only at the personality of the spirituality of the spiritual master but we also look at the kind of community that the spiritual master is inspired and whether we feel that we can have a good place and purpose within that community if you only look at the personality of the spiritual master I know some devotees who who were initiated by a charismatic Gaudiya Math leader but then he departed from the world and now they are disoriented because now they don’t know how to where to get their inspiration from so if somebody feels inspired not just by the by a particular spiritual leader in Gaudiya Math but also by the kind of community that is developed around him then taking initiation from that Gaudiya Math leader might be something which one can consider but otherwise if one has been cultivated in this con then even if we have had some unpleasant experiences with some devotees still the Krishna conscious movement is broad enough that Prabhupada said I build a house in which the whole world can live so devotees even with wide variety of dispositions can find out other like minded devotees and continue the practice of bhakti so it’s best to because it does create a certain amount of rupture then if some devotee who is mostly associating with the con devotees but that person takes initiation with Gaudiya Math in Gaudiya Math and then whether that devotee can take a responsible position in service in this con what kind of service they will be allowed to do, what kind of service what will be the kind of tension or lack of tension, it will all be very subjective, a lot will depend on the particular leaders and the particular community so it definitely creates a certain amount of tension which may actually go on lifelong initiation is a it’s not a one time thing it’s not a once it is done it is done generally within the tradition it is not recommended that we take re-initiation, in fact there is no tradition for taking re-initiation if one has taken initiation from a proper Vaishnava guru that’s why it may be best for somebody who has been introduced and if one is inspired by a particular Vaishnava leader one can take inspiration from them we can always they are also they can also be exalted devotees but whether they we want them to be our personal spiritual guides that we have to decide so commitment doesn’t mean disrespecting someone else and respecting someone of some other part doesn’t mean that we can’t be committed that Oxford Cambridge example I think is best to understand this and I think this same broad dynamic will also apply to somebody just getting introduced whether they should take initiation from Gaudiya Matharu is gone and overall it’s our responsibility to grow spiritually and we can’t outsource that responsibility for our spiritual growth to any institution nor can we nor can we give up the responsibility for our spiritual advancement just because we find the institutional conflicts to be too taxing and frustrating whatever be the institutional dynamics ultimately we as souls have a relationship with Krishna each one of us and each one of us has to take responsibility for developing that relationship the movement, whichever movement it is, that is actually meant to help us develop the relationship with Krishna and if because of tensions between two institutions if we let ourselves become disheartened in the practice of bhakti itself it’s like if there are two rivers there are two tributaries of a river both of them are going towards the ocean and one drop becomes so indecisive should I go in this river or this river the drop stops flowing forward itself and stays stuck that is not advisable so we have to find out which is the best way we can move forward towards Krishna pray to Krishna and then take the best step forwards