Faith and Doubt QnA HG Chaitanya Charan Prabhu

So, thank you very much. Shreemad Bhagavad Gita Ki Jai.

So, there are four paths, philosophical, social paths, how people are attracted to God. Is there any preaching application? Can you tell me what is the preaching application of this? Like, some people, they are attracted by the social atmosphere, and if they see something wrong socially, then they will… Yeah. Well, one thing I would like to clarify is that, those four paths may not be exhaustive.

They are broadly indicative that there are different ways in which people may be attracted towards Krishna. So, different people have different reasons why they come, and we try to put them in some categories. But, like, say, if you say, some people may want to come because they want to help their children get some samskaras.

So, parents come, but the parents don't want to come for the programmes. They just want their kids to come, they drop the kids and go away. So, now, is that a social need? You could say some kind of social need.

It's not their personal social need, but they want their children to be hanging out with good people, people whom they consider good. So, these are four broad categories. They need not be exhaustive.

Actually, Prabhupada explains that realisation or rather speaking with realisation. What it means is that he says we take the message of scripture and we find the interests of the audience. So, he says to speak with realisation means that we should speak the message of scripture, but speak it in a way that is interesting for the audience.

So, for that purpose, in one sense, the speaker has to study the scripture, but speaker also has to study the audience. So, what is the interest of the audience? Now, interest is a generic word. We could have the word nice.

You know what is nice? Needs, interests, concerns and expectations. So, depending on what the audience is looking for, we need to be able to present accordingly. So, there was a big article in the New York Times a few years ago, how Christianity has rebranded God.

God was traditionally the cosmic supplier. There is a famous prayer that, O father, thou art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, give us our daily bread. So, now, in most of Western society, most people are not concerned about bread.

You know, in America, if you go, even the poor people are fat. They may be poor in terms of that they don't have money, but nobody starves, because the government has soup kitchens and often the government food that they give is unhealthy food. They have contracts with Big Macs and something like that.

Basically, it's a whole thing that people don't starve. In India, starvation might be an issue, but in the West, it is not. So, they have rebranded God, not as a cosmic supplier, but as a cosmic therapist.

Like you pray to God and you become peaceful. Pour your heart out to God. Unburden yourself.

God is your friend. So, now, is this kind of God as a vision there in the Bible? Well, it is there to some extent, but it is never emphasised in the past. Now, it is being much more emphasised.

So, we may talk about, say, mantra chanting for stress management. We have stress. Now, if you go in the Yoga Sutra or you go in the Bhagavad Gita, is stress management a topic over there? No.

Now, can the Gita's wisdom be applied for stress management? It can be applied. So, if we say, Gita wisdom for enlightenment. You say, OK, you know, Gita is for enlightenment.

I am not interested in enlightenment. Get lost. So, people, it may not be very relevant for people.

So, it is the expertise of the speaker to be able to understand what are the interests of the audience and then present the message accordingly. Like I said, when Prabhupada came to India, still Indian in 1970, when he came back, people were not interested in Indians in philosophical spirituality still. But there was a lot of cultural national pride.

That, you know, we Indians, we were ruled by Westerners. Now, our Indian culture is being adopted by the Westerners. So, Prabhupada tapped into that.

That was the interest and Prabhupada used that interest. There's a big sadhu samaj programme where different leaders from different traditions had come and different organising. They were all speaking.

And Prabhupada, instead of speaking, he asked his devotees to come on the stage and start doing kirtans. And everybody went there, like 30, 40 thousand people were there in the audience. Everybody went wild to see the Westerners in dhoti, kurta and saree, dancing and singing.

And some of the couples also had children. The children were also dancing on the stage. So Prabhupada said, I don't have to speak anything.

You have seen yourself how this Harinam can transform people. So the point is, when we talk with people, we also try to understand where is this person coming from? What are their needs? And then we can try to see what aspect of scripture we can present to them. So like if somebody is coming from a scientific background, science is very important for them.

Then we may present some scientific aspects of Krishna consciousness. But for those who are not from a scientific background so much, everybody likes to think that I am scientific. But not many people are either interested in science or even capable of understanding scientific concepts.

Like somebody asked me a scientific technical question, there are three problems. First is that the rest of the audience doesn't understand the concept. Second is the questioner doesn't understand the concept.

The third is I don't understand the concept. But the thing is that not many, some people are interested in science. So I asked in Stanford, I spoke on the topic of is consciousness reducible to brain phenomena? Now, how many people are actually, if you do this as a one time programme in India? Maybe that is the only one time we'll be invited to do the programme.

So not many people are interested in that. But Stanford has a whole consciousness studies is like one of the most promising fields of research in neuroscience. It's like a combination of various areas.

There is neuroscience, there is AI, there is cognitive behavioural therapy and mindfulness. A lot of fields, they are intersecting in neuroscience, in consciousness studies. It's a big field for those who are really into scientific research.

So it depends on which audience we are trying to reach. OK. Any other questions? Yes, please.

Hello, Krishna Puroji. Puroji, as two days ago you were saying about two concepts. One was borrowed conviction and another was personal conviction.

So what I could understand that whatever you are telling to us is from your personal conviction. So if that is your personal conviction and if we are listening to that. So that is also some sort of borrowed conviction.

And you also told that borrowed conviction will not work. So my real question is, is this also really a borrowed conviction that we are taking from you? And if this is a borrowed conviction, how is it going to work? All convictions begin as borrowed convictions. But then as we experiment with those ideas, we try some ideas out.

Then if they work for us, then they become internalised. So hearing or you could say learning, reading, whatever. That is the beginning of the process of growing intellectually, for knowledge growing.

But it is that somebody else told me it is like this. That's why I'm doing it. OK, that may work for some people for some time.

But then if I encounter somebody who challenges it or if I myself experience something which seems to not work accordingly, you pray to God and good things will happen to you in your life. And I see somebody prays to God regularly, but something terrible happens to him. Somebody else is an atheist and good things are happening to him.

Then that will raise questions. So if I have not gone deeper in the sense, OK, how does this make sense? OK, then there is a bigger picture I have to consider. There is also the idea of karma over there.

And sometimes we have past karma which appears in the present life. So all those things we need to consider. We need to have a bigger picture.

So all conviction will start as a borrowed conviction. But then shravan, manan, niridhyasana. So when we contemplate, by contemplation, gradually study, OK, this makes sense to me.

This maybe not now. Maybe we are not rejected, but I can't accept it. So it's like if you consider everything that we hear, what we are hearing, there are some things which we like immediately accept.

Wow, this is just so true because maybe it can have some close. So maybe this is something which is what I have already had some experience of that. And it just makes sense immediately.

Some things we may have to reflect to accept. OK, I ask some questions. I talk with others.

And some things we may not have to reflect. We may ourselves have to evolve. Evolve means we go through some more life experiences and then we accept them.

Some things we may just suspend judgement that this doesn't make sense to me. But the overall body of knowledge, it seems to be credible. So I can understand this, but it's not that important for me.

Like somebody, for example, the whole idea of we are spiritual being, not just physical creatures, that may make very eminent sense. But maybe the fifth canto cosmology, that may not make sense. And the two are not equally important.

It's not that, like I mentioned about the moon mission or even evolution. You know, these are not, Krishna doesn't say at the end of your life, you have to remember that man did not go to the moon, so come back, come to me. No, that's not the point.

That's not a core point at all. It will apply for Krishna. So some things you may just find as unacceptable.

I just can't accept this. So ideally, we should try to move things up this ladder, up this hierarchy. So if something is here, then we really need to talk and analyse.

But some things, OK, I can't really accept this, but it doesn't matter so much. Maybe in future I'll find somebody who I can talk with, with whom I can talk and I'll get, discuss and I'll get a better understanding. So all conviction will start as borrowed conviction.

But from that borrowed conviction, gradually it will become internalised. Hare Krishna Prabhuji, at first I wish to thank you for the wisdom you have been sharing. They have helped me in the past.

And even at present, if I had any doubt, I would type the doubt and at last I would write Bhai Chaitanya Charan Prabhu. So your explanations are genuinely very helpful, have been helpful for me. And one doubt that I had to ask was, in today's lecture, two characteristics of the mentality of Asuras were in the verse.

That is, they consider themselves to be Ishwar and Bhogi. What is wrong with that mentality? Because I, from my experience, feel that if I am eating something, it is only me who is enjoying the taste. If it is bitter, it is bitter for me.

So I am in some sense enjoyer and the controller also. So what is wrong with that mentality? And if there is something wrong with that mentality, how can I free myself from the mentality of enjoyership and controllership? Yeah, good question. See, there's nothing intrinsically wrong in the sense that if you see later in the 18th chapter, in 1842, when Krishna is talking about the qualities of Kshatriyas, one of the qualities of a Kshatriya is Ishwarabhava.

It's 1843 actually. Shauryam Tejodhuti Dakshin Yuddhe Chaapya Palahajan Dhanam Ishwarabhavasya Shatram Karma Svabhavajam So the idea of Ishwarabhava. Now Prabhupada translated Ishwarabhava as leadership.

So what we are translating also is leadership. The nature of leadership. What it means is that if there is a group of people, somebody has to lead a group of people and some people have that take charge mentality, not just because they want power and attention, but some people have competence.

So leadership is like everybody may wanted a trait, but everybody may want to be a leader. But there are some people who are actually capable of being leaders. So in that sense, the Ishwarabhava itself is not a problem.

So if you see parenting, if somebody becomes a parent, in one sense, the parent has to be a Ishwar. Isn't it? The parent has to control the children. If a small kid wants to go and play on the streets where there are vehicles racing by, the parents have to say no.

The spiritual master is a Ishwar. The spiritual master guides and instructs and controls the disciple. So the point is not just the Ishwarabhava, because we are all parts of the Supreme Ishwara.

So when we are parts of Krishna, we will have partly the mentality of Krishna. Now the problem is, why do we want to be Ishwara? So the Kshatriyas, they are often called as Naradeva. Naradeva means they are gods on earth.

The idea is that the king should take responsibility for people, just as a parent takes responsibility for children or God takes responsibility for all living beings. So if somebody is taking on the role of leadership so that they can help others come on the right path, that's not a problem at all. Similarly, enjoying.

So Ramanti is actually enjoy. In fact the very name of the very word Ram is what? So enjoying is not the problem. It is Ishwara and Bhoga.

Is it something which is taking us higher towards our better nature, towards ultimately goodness and God or is it taking us away from that? So if you say Ishwara, that can mean controllership, but Ishwarabhava, it can also mean taking responsibility. If I am taking responsibility right now for speaking, in one sense, what am I going to do? I will be trying to control the attention of the audience, not literally by force, but by speaking things that are meaningful and appealing by which I can retain your attention. But what am I speaking after that? Am I speaking something which is helping you come towards wisdom, coming towards goodness, come towards Krishna? Or am I just speaking something for cheap applause and something which will titillate, but agitate and create deceptions in the mind? So both the Ishwarabhava and the Bhogabhava, they are natural to us.

Krishna is the supreme enjoyer and we as parts of Krishna are also enjoyers. The problem with the demoniac mentality is what we discussed earlier that no boundaries. So for the sake of my controllership, so one way to become a controller is that I show that I am more competent than everyone else.

But another way is anybody who decides to challenge my authority, I destroy that person. Even if that person is actually better than me. That's what we discussed about destructive competition.

So then that Ishwarabhava is destructive. The boundaries are not there. See Bhoga doesn't just have to mean sensual pleasure.

If somebody has any talent, a gift in one is a gift for everyone. If one person has beautiful singing ability, then their singing ability can benefit everyone. If somebody has good painting ability, their painting can bring so much joy.

They get joy in painting and they bring joy to others. So how are we seeking Bhoga? How are we seeking that Ishwarabhava? That's important. So rather than thinking that we have to give up that, yes, the word controlling mentality or enjoying mentality has a negative connotation.

The way it is generally used in ISKCON. But the negative connotation is generally with the Prathak Bhava, with the separatist mentality. But if the same thing is used in a mood of service, in a mood of taking responsibility, in a mood of connecting with Krishna, then these are not bad things.

Yes, please. In one of the classes you had mentioned that sometimes there is a distance between intent and action. And you had given three to four categories that initially somebody intends something else, but acts so that his purpose is fulfilled.

That's still okay, but more dangerous is when the action is exactly, when intent is much, is a destructive intent. So I wanted to ask a personal question, which I'm not little clear. So even in Krishna consciousness also, like sometimes, like some devotees have some strengths, which are not always my strength.

And I would like to also take help of their strengths for forwarding my service. Now, I cannot oblige them by directly asking. I would, as one said, there is a distance between intent and action in the sense that I would serve them so that they would feel obliged towards me, so that they would help me in my service.

So then will that be considered as a destructive intent or an acceptable intent? Or should we correct this attitude? Because ultimately I'm doing it for God's service only, but the intent is not pure enough. Okay, it's a good question, quite a thoughtful question. See, the nature of life is reciprocation, that all relationships, all interactions involve reciprocation.

You ask me a question, I'm trying to answer the question. That's a reciprocation. Now, reciprocation is a basic principle of life.

Reciprocation can be two ways. One is transactional. The other is transformational.

So, transactional interaction means, say, if I go to a shopkeeper, I buy a product, I give some money. And I may not even, nowadays, in the past when there were like every neighbourhood had a small kirana shop, then what would happen is the people would know the shop owner and they would have some conversation. They would become familiar with each other.

Now, if you go to supermarket mall, there are different attendants at different times. So, it's very transactional. So, if the interactions are transactional, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but that's one way we function.

But the transformational, ideally speaking, what would happen? It's like when I interact with you and you interact with me. The result of that is the two of us come closer to each other. And both of us, through that interaction, we become better.

That is the ideal purpose of any relationship. Now, we come, like Prabhupada said, one of the purposes of ISKCON is to bring people closer to each other and closer to Krishna, the prime entity. So, this would be a transformational kind of interaction.

So, now, we all have different strengths and we are, after all, a team. We're all serving Krishna and Krishna has given us all different talents. So, now, if we do something for someone and then we expect them to do something for us, is that a wrong thing? I wouldn't say it's wrong.

It's just that if that person doesn't do the thing for us, then what do we do? Do we just completely neglect or devalue that person? OK, yeah, some relationships come closer, some relationships don't come closer. But it's not that just because that person didn't do something for us, we start treating that person as if they don't exist. Or I did something for you, you didn't do something for me and I really do something to you now.

So that is not very healthy. In general, the nature of life is that we reciprocate with many different people. In some relationship, we do a lot for someone and they do very little for us.

In some other relationship, we do a little for them and they do a lot for us. So in the overall net analysis, if we give, we will get back. If we offer service, we will get some reciprocation, but it may not be from the same person.

And if it is not from the same person, then for us to decide that, OK, I won't spend so much time on this person, that's perfectly OK. So I think it's the relationship may or may not develop that we can't control that. But we shouldn't devalue or dismiss the person or certainly not become an enemy of that person because that person doesn't reciprocate the way we expect.

What I generally do is that I would go an extra mile if the reciprocation is there, else I would do the regular way which I deal with everybody else. I won't disregard. That's fair enough.

I mean, that's how ideally things should be. We don't want to. People will disappoint us.

We will disappoint people. But we don't have to become their enemies. They don't have to.

We don't have to make them our enemies. So, yes, I think that's fair enough. We do something extra and we see how they reciprocate.

If they reciprocate, then we spend more time in that relationship. So, you know, about give time. Give time has two different meanings.

Give people our time or give people time to grow themselves. You know, let them take their time. So it's like sometimes in our boys outreach, we have certain standards, we have certain expectations and some students come up to those expectations, like say coming for the morning programme, doing this many rounds.

Some don't. In the past, many times those who would not come to our standards, you just completely not pay any attention to them at all. But we also learn by experience that maybe they are not ready right now.

But that doesn't mean that they are bad people. That doesn't mean they are insincere people. It just means they are not ready right now.

So we may not spend a lot of time talking with them. They may not want to spend a lot of time talking with us also. But they are not unfavourable to bhakti.

They may just not be that committed. So we might maintain some casual contact with them and invite them occasionally for some programmes and maybe five years down the line, ten years down the line, they may become more serious. Like now I've seen when I go to America, many devotees who are not very serious in bhakti in India, when they go to America and they are doing their PhD there or they got a job there, they get connected to the temple there and they want to do a lot of service there.

They feel the need more when they are there. So basically don't close the door. We open the door for somebody.

If they don't walk into the door, it's not that we kick them out of the room and slam the door in their face. OK, I open the door for you. If you don't want to come in, you can knock at the future.

I'll open and let you in. So keep the relationship, keep the relationship cordial. But we don't have to, we can't just, we don't, all of us have finite time and resources.

If somebody is not reciprocating, then we don't have to spend too much time on that person. OK. Hare Krishna Prabhu.

You were discussing about timeless principles and timely applications. Yeah. So how can we say about that this timely application is not deviated from the timeless principles? How can we know that the timely application is not deviating from the timeless principle? Well, many different ways.

You remember, I talked about three things. Whenever we are evaluating the right or wrong action is content. Three things.

What is it? Intent and consequence. What is the result? So all three are important in their own place. So we could say that Prabhupada sometimes prioritises consequence.

So say we have Zoom classes. Say now some devotees attend classes online instead of coming physically. Now, is that equivalent to physical classes? Well, most likely no.

But then it depends. For those who come primarily from the intellectual pathway. For them, coming to the temple is primarily for hearing the class.

And quite often they do not even like the social aspect. Now sit and talk with this person and then take prasad over here, stand in the queue. And for them, the Zoom classes may be very nourishing.

I don't have to navigate through all the traffic, all the logistics. Just peacefully and here, sit peacefully and here. So for them, that might be equivalent.

But for somebody who comes for the social aspect primarily. I'm not saying that they are not philosophical, but they want to talk with devotees. They want to have a feeling of communicating with people.

Now for them, the Zoom classes may just not serve the purpose at all. You can listen to the class anywhere, right? I want to meet with people, I want to talk with people. So I have one devotee in America, he is from India, he went to America.

He said, I have visited five temples of ISKCON and nobody in the temple even asked me who am I, where am I from? You know, what is the point of a temple? I said, okay. Now, is the point of a temple to ask everyone who comes, who are you, where are you from? Well, no and yes, the temple is for glorifying Krishna, but the temple is also a place for building a community. Now, some temples may just not have enough people or the people might be very busy in some services.

So I would say that each person will have to evaluate whether actually I am coming closer to Krishna or not by this. So like nowadays there is this, many western forms of music are used in kirtans. You know like mantra, rock and things like that.

So now, how much is that Krishna conscious? Well, for Indians, if they have never heard of rock before or it's very new, then what happens is the mantra is familiar, the rock is new. So they don't remember the mantra at all, they focus all on the rock. But on the other hand, for somebody who is western, for them the rock is the familiar thing, the mantra is the new thing.

So generally speaking, for them, they will focus more on the mantra. So for them, it may bring them closer to Krishna, for us it may not. Because phalena parichet is, at the end of it, what do I remember primarily? Do I remember the mantra or do I remember the rock? So each person will have to evaluate that.

That's why Desha Kaal Patra is so important. So in India, there is generally gender separation. And that's the conventional way, it's not just in temples, even if you go to locals, there are separate compartments for women and things like that.

So there's a certain amount of gender separation. I was talking with an American devotee, now become a devotee, he said that when he came to a temple, his girlfriend brought him to a temple, they came in the same car. But then he said, after we came in, we're told to sit in separate places.

And he said throughout the class, throughout the session, I neither could understand the aarti nor understand the class. I was so lost completely. And I couldn't even ask anyone what is going on.

So he said, I told my girlfriend, I'm never going to come here again. And then after that, they went to a Western Outreach Centre. And in the Western Outreach Centre, they don't have gender separation.

Men and women can sit together. If you go even now today, I don't know how it is in India, but in the West, in churches, people, the family sits together. Even if somebody's a fiancé, they also sit together.

So actually, sometimes the church is the only time the family is together. So now for an Indian, gender mixing together in a temple would be disturbing. But for a Western person, gender being separated may be disturbing.

So, you know, we have to see, each person will have to see from their background perspective. So it's not that easy to decide what is what is anukul and what is pratikul. So it's not simple that you can just look at something and say it's a deviation.

See Prabhupada had big plans for spreading Krishna consciousness. So around 1968-69, he started a political party in America. They called it the In God We Trust.

And Prabhupada said there is one advantage of being a politician. You can freely criticise everyone else. So Prabhupada was very enthusiastic and there is one devotee, Balwant Prabhu.

Prabhupada said you can become the next president of America. And then I met Balwant Prabhu also. So he said suddenly Prabhupada seemed to just lose all enthusiasm.

And then we went to Prabhupada. Prabhupada, are you no longer interested in the political party? Prabhupada said I am very interested. But don't ask me for any money.

So what happened was that when Prabhupada recognised, it's not just doing some political campaign and giving some rallies. Coming into politics involves a huge amount of money. And Prabhupada felt that the Lakshmi that we are getting from book distribution, Lakshmi that people are giving for donations, he said that we would like to use it for building temples.

With that we would like to use it for printing books. That we would like to use it for direct devotional activities. And so he decided that we don't want to get involved in politics.

Certainly not involve, spend Lakshmi that could be used for building temples on funding a political candidate. So the intent was right. The intent was also to spread Krishna Consciousness.

Can politicians help spread Krishna Consciousness? Of course they can. But Prabhupada decided this is not working right now. So was it a deviation? Obviously not a deviation.

It was an experiment. So some experiment, the intent might be good. But the consequence was turning out, it was just sucking the resources, financial resources.

They decided that this we can't do at this point. So I think deviation is a very harsh word. There is a huge amount of judgement associated with that.

So I think in life we all need to find out how things work for us. So Prabhupada in Margin of Bhagavad Dharma says that, My dear lord, you must have some purpose that you have brought me here. And the word used is Anumane.

Anumane means what? Guessing. Now Anumane you could use as speculation. And Prabhupada says I am speculating.

You must have some purpose. Now it's not speculation. Prabhupada says I am inferring.

It's an inference I am making that. Prabhupada was 69-70. We discussed earlier how for Prabhupada to get to America itself, how the sponsorship letter came, how he got the passageway on Jaladuta, how he survived the heart attacks.

Well Prabhupada endeavoured. So there was Krishna's hand there. So if Krishna you have brought me this far, you won't have brought me this far to abandon me now.

You must have some plan because of which you have brought me here. Brought me till now. So ache kichu karjatabe.

So I guess you must have some purpose. So what is that purpose? It was not that Prabhupada had like a hotline to Krishna. Prabhupada, Krishna was telling him, this person is not going to become a devotee.

Don't spend time talking with this person. This person will become a devotee. Spend more time with this person.

No, Prabhupada was trying. I mentioned this earlier also that faith is a combination of certainty and uncertainty. The certainty is that Krishna will protect, that Krishna will empower.

A devotee has that conviction, that certainty. But when and how? The time and the means. Now that is something which we may not know.

When Prabhupada also said, I can see temples. The temples are filled with people, with devotees. Only time is separating us.

Even Prabhupada didn't know how much time is separating us. Is it six months? Is it one year? Is it five years? So, Krishna's plan works at his pace. And how it will work, that we don't know.

So, we have to try things. Okay, I tried this particular service. If it works well and good, if it doesn't work, then we try to recalibrate.

Okay, let us try something else. And we all through that process, we learn what works and we move forward. I think deviation is a very harsh word to use.

Where is the mic? Hare Krishna Guruji, thank you for this lecture. I wanted to ask that in one of your lectures, you said that the fear of aparadhas lead to superficial relationship between the devotees. So, can you put a little light on this? And how can we know that our relationship with a particular devotee is superficial? And what can be done to make it deep-rooted? Okay, good question.

See, strong relationship. How do you know it's a strong relationship? How strongly you hug someone and you meet them? Well, that could be one parameter. But the idea is that one parameter of a strong relationship is even if strong words are spoken in that relationship, the relationship doesn't break.

See, life is tough. And life presents serious challenges, serious problems are there. And if two people are invested in solving a problem, the two may have different approaches.

Two devotees want to preach. But one devotee may say, let's focus on getting infrastructure first. Other devotee say, let's get people first.

Now, who is right? It's very difficult to say. Now, two parents, a couple wants to take care of a child. One parent may say, we have to rigidly discipline our child.

Other parent may say, we should suffocate our child so much. Let the child have space. Who is right? It's difficult to say.

So see, generally, disagreements are unavoidable in life. Now, disagreements, they can be at three levels. One is at the level of conclusions, that you know, you have arrived at this conclusion, and I have arrived at a different conclusion.

These are relatively speaking, the mildest. We all can, okay, I know, you think you are at that conclusion, I don't agree with it. But sometimes we decide, sometimes we'll do your way, sometimes I'll do my way, whatever it is.

Now, there can be disagreement about reasoning itself. That, see, what do I mean by reasoning? The way you are thinking about it. So at this level, it is more disagreement about action, what to do.

At this level, it's more at the level of intelligence. That means, the way you are analysing it. Say, if you decide, should we invest money in a particular, particular mutual fund or stock or whatever.

Now, some people may say that, okay, this is the track record over here. This is this company, this agent is talking about it. So, they may give a list of factors in its pro.

Now, somebody may say, but this is, no, this is, this person lost money in something like this. And there's so many scams now. And we have safer options, even if they don't have so much returns.

So, here, the disagreement is over intelligence. And this is also okay. It is a little more difficult, difficult to reconcile it.

But at least, okay, you know, I understand why you are thinking like this. So, I don't agree with it. But your position is at least intelligible to me.

It's not agreeable, but it's intelligible. But the most problematic is, when it becomes at the level of intentions. That means, I doubt your intentions.

I think you are ill-motivated. That, you, you want to do this, you want to preach in this way, because you just want popularity. And, or you want to preach in this way, because you will get, you want more position, you want more power, you want more money.

You're not really interested in people, in benefiting them, or you're not even interested in serving the mission of Prabhu. So, when the disagreements go at the level of intentions, then it's very difficult to reconcile them. Because, see, we may not trust people's judgments, but still we may trust people's hearts.

It's possible that, you know, I may not invest money where you recommend, because I don't trust your financial sense. But still I may trust you as a person. You're a good person.

But, same way you could say, could you apply it to me? So, but the thing is, when we start thinking that, somebody's intentions are bad, then it becomes a big problem. So now, when there is a disagreement, at what level is the disagreement? If we are too afraid of Vaishnavapradha, then what happens is, we don't, we neither probe the other person, maybe the word probe has a negative connotation, but we don't, we don't question the other person, nor do we express ourselves. And the nature of relationships is, that, quite often, when there is ignorance, ignorance quite often leads to a negative conclusion.

That means what? Say, if the two of us know each other, and say, we see each other, but I don't greet you, and even if you nod your head, I don't even notice you, then probably, then you'll start thinking, maybe I'm, maybe I'm upset with you, or you may think I'm a rude person. So, now, it might just be that, maybe something else is on my mind, and I didn't even notice it, I was thinking about something else. But what happens is, our mind, whenever there is a interaction that we can't make sense of, we often don't leave it at that level.

We don't leave it at that level. We try to, why is this person behaving like this? And over a period of time, we go towards the intentions. And then that happens, then it becomes a big problem.

Say, if I trust you that, you know, you are dedicated to Prabhupada's mission, you trust me that I am dedicated to Prabhupada's mission. Now, I may have made some mistakes in how I present the philosophy, or how I make some managerial decisions, but if you trust my intention, then even if you attack me, the attack will be more on the particular decision made, not on the individual itself. But then, all this requires some talking.

If in the name of not committing Vaishnava aparadha, we don't talk with each other, then what will happen is, we keep arriving at our own inferences. Why does this person behave like this? Why does this person behave like this? And then as the negative inferences start coming up, then slowly we start doubting people's intentions. So, then it becomes very problematic.

So, you know, Ashwatthama in the Mahabharata was a good person. He was not a bad person at all. And he had nothing against the Pandavas.

But, he ended up doing probably the worst deed in the entire Mahabharata. What was that? Killing the Pandavas' sons while they were sleeping. And not just the Pandavas' sons, the entire Pandava army basically.

Slaughtering them. Now, how did he do that? What made him such a bad person? What happened was, that Dronacharya was killed. Now, Dronacharya was killed when he was unconscious, rather when he had gone into meditation.

And he thought, the Pandavas killed my father when he was unconscious, so I will kill them while they are unconscious, or they are sleeping basically. Same thing. So, now, the key difference here was, the Pandavas had not made a cold-blooded plan to kill Drona.

The plan was, to get Drona to lower his weapons, because Drona had got so frustrated at his inability to win for Duryodhana, that he started using celestial weapons against ordinary soldiers. It's like, in ordinary war, somebody starts using nuclear weapons. So, then, somehow or the other, that country's leader has to be assassinated or brought down.

So, the Pandavas' plan was, basically, to get Drona to lower his weapons. And then Arjuna's plan was, we will arrest Drona, and keep him under house arrest. But, Dhrishtadyumna happened to be the closest to Drona, when Drona lowered his weapons.

And Dhrishtadyumna had been born for the death of Drona. That's what his father had performed as yajna. But, Dhrishtadyumna had come nowhere close to killing Drona.

And, in front of Dhrishtadyumna's eyes, Drona had killed Drupada on that very day. So, Dhrishtadyumna was frustrated. And when he got the opportunity, he charged Drona to lop off his head.

Warriors from both sides told him, Stop! This is a heinous activity. He is your guru. You cannot do it to anyone like this.

But, things happened so fast, that he just lopped off the head. Arjuna was so angry at that time. Arjuna went forward to attack Dhrishtadyumna.

Satyaki came to assist Arjuna. And then Bhima had to come in between and they had to stop. So, it was the hot-headed action of one individual.

It was not the cold-blooded plan of the entire Pandava panth. The plan was, speaking a lie, was a cold-blooded plan. But, killing was not the cold-blooded plan.

But, what happened was, Duryodhana told Ashwatthama, The Pandavas planned in a cold-blooded way to kill your father. And Ashwatthama just couldn't believe this. He said, Arjuna, whatever… Arjuna and Ashwatthama were rivals.

But, he knew. Arjuna was a good archer. And Arjuna was a faithful disciple.

He just couldn't believe. How could Arjuna have done something like this? But, at that time, he just made one big mistake. That, he didn't ask the Pandavas.

He believed Duryodhana's version of the story. He could… Just once he could… How could he have killed our Guru like this? Now, what kind of person does that? Now, you could say that they were fighting a war, they could kill. That's true.

But, there is an honourable way to kill. There is a dishonourable way to kill. So, because he didn't ask that, he bought into Duryodhana's version of the story.

That's why he felt self-righteous. Now, what you did to your Guru, I will do to you. That's how he ended up doing something terrible.

So, the point I'm saying is that he started questioning or he started believing that the Pandavas were ill-motivated. And that's where the problem came up. So, we need to talk with each other.

If somebody is doing something which doesn't make sense to us, which agitates us, then asking you, what was your reasoning in doing this? So, the other person should not be so insecure. Who do you think you are to question me? Or we should not be so insecure. If I just question this person, this person will become so offended that our relationship will end.

So, that should not be there. So, in that sense, sometimes to face real problems in life, we have to ask hard questions of each other. And the readiness to, the courage to ask the hard questions and the courage to answer the hard questions, that, if it is present, it's a strong relationship.

So, if we are constantly afraid of committing a crime, see, the mind is not going to stop thinking. Why did this person do like this? So, then we will say, I don't want to commit a crime, but how will I not commit a crime? Because that person has done some action that has affected me. And I have to somehow make sense of that action.

So, either I have to ask that person or I have to ask someone else and then find out from that person. Maybe that person knows that person, that person can ask someone else. That's why we have mediation, we have ombudsman, we have various mechanisms.

Does that answer your question? Thank you. Where's the mic now? Okay. Can have the mic come here to Mataji.

First two questions there, then we'll come here. Hare Krishna, Prabhuji. Thank you for this wonderful series of sessions.

This was very good and very enlightening. Regarding those stages of bhakti, when you were mentioning that how someone began bhakti, like how he came, and then somewhere I understood like what you said, something like that, later when we try to analyse that for what reason I came to bhakti, and we analyse where we are, and then it helps us to further root us and then further advance from that position. So when I reflect on this, I see my friends and other devotees, they share that they come out of frustration of questions, like some frustrations, that someone came from inquisitiveness to know something, and something like that.

But when I reflect, I only see that, or mostly I see, I don't know certainly, but at least gross level I see that it happened, I was not doing anything relevant, so devotees were calling, I liked the devotees, I liked what they are saying, what they did, so just I am continuing. And they only help me bringing the curiosity, while telling that what is your purpose of life, ok, ok, something, I have to think like this also. Ok.

So what I am asking, I am asking Prabhuji that, so now like, somehow or other I came to Krishna Consciousness, how to take now, and how to fix in the root now, and so that… Yeah, it's not easy, because in many ways, we are a mystery to ourselves. You know, there are many times, we do something, and then somebody asks us, why did you do that? You know, we come up with an explanation, that will make sense to them. But you know, is that the real reason why we did it? Maybe it is a part of it.

But, the point I am saying is that, you know, sometimes understanding human motivation is very complex. So, why we do particular things, is, we can try to understand to some extent, of course, because we are responsible for our life in many ways, so we have to try to understand. But it is not so easy.

And life also is to some extent the very nature of life is that, we have to make huge decisions based on tiny information. Like if you choose a particular career, you may choose engineering, you may choose a particular field of engineering, how much can we know about it? We may try to find out, we may try to know this is a good college, this is a good field, but how much can we know? You know, if we take up a job, how much can we really know about that particular job? And even if we know, the world changes, the economy changes, that particular job may not be so lucrative. If we get married, how much can we really know about the other person? So, the point is, that in life, that is just the way we function.

That sometimes we have to make huge decisions based on tiny pieces of information. And we try to use as much reasoning as we can, try to get as much information as we can, but much of life requires stepping out in faith. So, we try as much as possible to make sense and sometimes we can make sense of our past actions, sometimes we can make sense of our present actions.

And it may not be that the reason why we came to Krishna Consciousness is the same reason why we are continuing in Krishna Consciousness. And we change, our reasons also evolve. So, we can say, okay, what is it that inspires me right now? So, those are my reasons.

So, in Krishna Consciousness, there are, say, maybe a dozen activities. Which are the activities that I look forward to? Generally, one way to understand our attractions is that what is it that if we do, we feel happy. And what is it if we don't do? We feel grumpy.

You know grumpy? Grumpy is like irritable. You know, we just become annoying. We become annoyed and we become annoying.

So, we can observe this and by that we can try to understand what is it that is presently driving us. And it's a self-understanding also takes time. Just saying, I am not the body, I am the soul, it doesn't really give us much self-understanding.

It is okay, I am the soul, but still I am living through this particular body-mind machine. And what is the nature of this body-mind machine? Understanding that also takes time. So, just do the best that we can.

And sometimes we learn something about ourselves from some decisions. Sometimes we just don't, there's not much to learn. Okay, I made this decision based on these factors.

So, we just understand, okay, these factors were what shaped my decision. It may not have been a conscious decision, but it's these factors. If the way you are describing yourself, then you may also find that if you chose engineering, it might not have been by a lot of conscious deliberation.

Maybe the parents told us, maybe some friends told us. So, some people are like that. I am not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, but some people reflect a lot before making decisions.

Some people may not reflect a lot. If the people around us, people whom we respect, people whom we trust, people whom we like, they suggest something to us and we don't find anything terribly wrong with it. If it makes sense, we go along with it.

So, it just speaks, it just tells us something about our nature. So, don't worry too much about it. Thank you.

Where is the mic? One more question. In one of your sessions you said, a devotee looks forward for Krishna when he proceeds, like further goes ahead in the bhakti and not Krishna's blessings, Krishna's gifts. Correct.

He looks forward for Krishna. And then you described it with Krishna's blessings as service and I think opportunities. Yeah.

So, I wanted to know, my understanding was that Krishna's service is more important than looking for just person Krishna. That is true. See, I was talking from a particular perspective.

It's not so much the service, it's more like the tangible manifestations of the service. As in the example of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada went to America, and he was very attached to Krishna and the way he was connected with Krishna to the service.

To chanting Krishna's name, to speaking about Krishna, to writing about Krishna. But then, he did not have any tangible blessings of Krishna manifested in this world. He didn't have followers, he did not have temples, he did not have an institution.

But he was not disturbed by that. So, service is one thing, but the results of the service is another thing. So, if we have an opportunity to speak about Krishna, even if one person is there to hear from us, that's an opportunity to serve Krishna through speaking.

And we can be grateful for that. But if you are giving a programme, and instead of one people, hundred people come, then that is a further blessing. Isn't it? So, sometimes that blessing may manifest at the material level, sometimes it may not manifest at the material level.

So, what I was saying is that some devotees, as we grow, we want blessings to manifest at a gross level first, then at a subtle level, but then afterwards, even if the blessings at the subtle level don't manifest, like somebody is a pujari, they worship the deities, or they dress the deities, and after that somebody says, you know, the dressing is so beautiful today. And they feel that their service is being valued, it's being appreciated. But somebody may be serving the deities in a temple where not many people visit, not many people appreciate, but they are just happy serving the deities.

So, then that is something which is, I would say, much more advanced. Of course, they would also love if people came and took darshan of the deities, but their relationship with Krishna and their dedication to Krishna's service is not dependent on their recognition of their service by the world. Does it answer your question? So, Krishna's service here, you meant more on material things? I haven't used the word material, but the manifested results.

Manifested results. Yeah, because, you know, if somebody is coming to attend a kirtan or attend a class, can you call it really material? You could say the result is manifested in the material world, but it is, those people are coming to hear about Krishna, that is definitely, at least partly spiritual. Thank you.

Thank you. Yes. This side here.

Are there any other questions? Okay, we'll come back. Yes, Mataji. Religious and spiritualism, is it the same, religiousness and spiritualism, or is there any difference? And at ISKCON, what we are doing is religiousness or spiritualness? Can you please explain? Because this is very confusing.

Everyone's talking about these days' spiritualism, but their spiritualism explanation is quite different. Yeah. So I mentioned that there is this whole genre of people who call themselves as SBNR.

Can you guess what it is? Yes. Spiritual but not religious. There are entire books written about this also.

So basically what has happened is that words, in general, in philosophy of language, words have denotations and they have connotations. Now, both of them seem very complex, but denotations is what they literally mean. And connotations means what they remind people of or what they are associated with.

So for example, you know, in the West, people don't like to use the word I came to Krishna Consciousness. Because they say, you know, it's like, I am exploring. So came to means, you know, that exploring aspect is not there, it's like a destination is there.

So they say, you know, I encountered Krishna Consciousness. Now, in India, the word encounter has a different meaning. So, in India, we use the word pass out.

So pass out means graduated. In the West, you know, pass out means to fall unconscious. See, I was giving a class, I passed out in 1998 and people became concerned.

So, words have denotations, what they literally mean and connotations, what they symbolise. So, before 1950, the word spiritual and religious were more or less synonyms. If you see the quotes of Einstein, he sometimes uses the word, you know that the deeply religious sense that there is a higher intelligence manifested in the universe.

So, he uses the word religious in a very generic sense. So, the humanity is defined by religious instinct. So, what the religious instinct means? The instinct to look for something deeper, something bigger, to find some meaning and purpose.

But, especially the post 1950s and especially I would say after 1980s, 1990s and especially after 9-11. 9-11 was when the twin towers were brought down. So, after that, religion, it started being associated very strongly with sectarianism.

Sectarianism and then fanaticism. Sectarianism means, what did you know that? Religion divides people. That, you know, people belong to this group and my religion versus your religion.

So, the word religion started acquiring a negative annotation. That, you know, religion tells you, you have to believe this and what I believe is different from what you believe and there is conflict because of that. And then fanaticism, you know, we discussed two forms of fanaticism, you remember? There is exclusivism, which is more in thoughts.

That some people have the idea that I or my religion has exclusive rights to God. You can go to God only if you follow my religion, my God, my sacred book. So, that's exclusivism.

So, exclusivism is thought. But there is also extremism. Now, extremism is in actions.

So, exclusivists say that if you are not going to worship my God, you are going to go to hell. Extremists are even kinder than exclusivists. They say anyway you are going to go to hell, why delay it? So, we will help you get there faster.

So, what happens because of this that religion, the word religion has got a strongly negative connotation nowadays. In contrast, nowadays the word spiritual, it is associated with openness. Like openness to experience.

That, okay, you know, I want to do something more in life. I am open to try out various things. I am open to learn new ideas.

So, spirituality is associated with openness. And it is also associated with positive emotions. Like people say, spiritual with, oh, I went to this, it was a very spiritual experience.

That means I felt very good. And it's not just like superficial good, I drink and feel good. No, some deeper good I felt.

So, the word spiritual has got a very positive connotation nowadays. And, most importantly, spiritual is not seen as sectarian. So, now, in Krishna consciousness, what we are doing, is it spiritual or is it religious? Well, it's not that simple.

Like, one way to understand this is this analysis I do based on 9.2 in the Gita. See, science has two aspects to it. There is theory and there is experiment.

So, like that, spirituality has two aspects. There is philosophy and there is practise. And now, one aspect of practise, or when the practise is systematised and codified, that becomes religion.

So, just as, in science, there has to be some experiment. Otherwise, the theory just remains in the head. We don't know whether it's right or wrong.

Similarly, in spirituality, we may have different philosophies, but we have to have some practise. And, that, see, curiously, words have different connotations. The word religion has a negative connotation, but the word religious does not have such a negative connotation.

It's like, somebody was religiously dedicated to his sports practise. That means, like a religious person would every day do some practise, like that. Now, nowadays, the word monk has become very cool.

You know, the idea is that monks are people who are very focused. So, there is also, there is a whole word called, oh, I was functioning in a monk mood. Monk mood means, like, I was, like, I was so absorbed, I was so focused, I was so single-pointed.

So, there is a whole book about how to live in the monk mood. There is a book, Think Like a Monk, which is there, but other books also come up like that. So, the idea that, the idea of religious dedication, that means, you know, single-pointed, committed dedication, that is valued.

But, so, the idea is that, if somebody wants to be spiritual, they have to do some practise for being spiritual. And that practise will be their religion. But they may not use that particular term for it.

Because the word religion makes people quite uncomfortable. So, now, as far as ISKCON is concerned, anybody who sees us, we will say we are religious. Because they associate certain externals, you know, we wear a particular symbol, tilak, we wear particular clothes, we have particular prayer that we chant.

So, somehow in the mainstream mind, many times specific is associated with sectarian. The more specific your practise is, it becomes that it's associated with a specific group of people who are practising it, that specific group becomes a sect. So, specific is associated with sectarian.

But, it doesn't have to be like that. So, are we religious? Well, yes, in the sense that we have a specific set of practises. But are we spiritual? Yes, in the sense that we are looking for higher experience.

We are seeking to develop love of God. So, if we consider that the top of the mountain is spiritual consciousness, the bottom of the mountain is material consciousness. So, now, in our tradition, we do accept that there are many paths to God.

The Prabhupada in that purport of that there are many paths to higher consciousness, to God. And Prabhupada was asked about Jesus. He said, Jesus is like our Guru.

He had so much love for God that he was ready to lay down his life for the service of God. A person who has so much love for God, we respect that person. So, Prabhupada had that broadness.

When he was in Iran, now Iran has become like a hotbed of fanaticism. But that was after 1979, they had a revolution. Before that, Iran was quite open.

Now, if you go to Iran, it becomes Iran. Among all the countries in the Middle East, Iran is probably among, even more than Saudi Arabia, at least they are trying to cultivate a liberal image. But, because they want business and other things.

But Iran is very hardline. Anyway, Prabhupada is in Iran and he was talking with some devotees and at that time, in the background the namaz prayers or the shahada started being called out. And Prabhupada paused.

Prabhupada just closed his eyes. He heard out the whole prayer. And Prabhupada opened his eyes.

His eyes were shining. He said, wasn't that beautiful? And then one devotee said, Prabhupada, wouldn't it be better if they chanted Hare Krishna? And Prabhupada looked almost hurt. Why are you making me sectarian? They are worshipping God in their way.

We are worshipping God in our way. So, now, does that mean that it is exactly identical? Of course not. There are differences.

So, the idea is that, if, say, this part of the mountain is rocky, this part of the mountain is marshy. So, now, different parts of the mountain, same mountain we are going up, but they may require different equipments. The kind of shoes one wears, the kind of pole one carries for support, the kind of clothes one wears, depending on what kind of winds are there, what kind of rains are there.

So, there will be differences. And sometimes those differences may be non-trivial. Serious differences might also be there.

But still, there can be a common purpose. So, we have a specific set of practises. In that sense, we are religious.

But we also accept, we are open. There is a certain level of openness. We accept that there are many paths to God.

So, in that sense, we are spiritual. So, in general, because the word religious has a negative connotation, we can focus on the word spiritual. And if you see Prabhupada, in the Seven Purposes of ISKCON, he uses the word spiritual.

He doesn't use the word religious. The first purpose is to correct the imbalance between material and spiritual values through systematic spiritual education. And then later on, he talks about erecting a place dedicated for the worship of Krishna.

Worship of the prime entity Krishna. But he doesn't specifically use the word religious. So, in one sense, if people are using the word religious in the sense of being sectarian, narrow-minded, intolerant, we are not religious in that sense.

But religious in the sense that we have a specific set of practises by which we rise towards spiritual consciousness. In that sense, we are religious. So, it's a long answer because it's a complicated question.

But if you have a short answer, you can say, yes, we are a spiritual organisation. That's the primary we can focus on. Thank you.

Are there any other? Where's the mic? I was giving a class in America. Where's the mic? Instead of where's the mic, I said, where's the mic? And four people raised their hands. Okay.

Yes, please. Hare Krishna, Prabhuji. Please accept my humble obeisances.

Thank you, Prabhuji, for the wonderful classes. I want to ask that sometimes we intellectually become like confident or we intellectually become convinced that this is wrong, this is right. But sometimes I am looking for sensual pleasures, like mind is looking for sensual pleasures.

So, the question is sometimes when we restrain, it creates frustration. So, the first question is, how to deal with this? Like this frustration or how we can control this? So, it's not that no sensual pleasure is allowed. It is within boundaries.

So now, what exactly the boundary will be? That may vary from person to person, situation to situation. So, each of us has to find out how we can practise spirituality in a way that is progressive and sustainable for us. Progressive means we are moving ahead.

Sustainable means it's not that we are feeling suffocated constantly. So, like it's, you know, in one way is parenting. So, it's like we, our intelligence can be like the parent for our mind.

So, parenting has two aspects to it. One is we care for the present child. Second is we care for the potential.

Potential child means the potential in the child. Isn't it? So, parents, they want their children to have a bright future and that means they have to study, they have to discipline themselves, they have to maintain their health. So, the parents need to care for the potential.

The child is not going to care for the future. Isn't it? The parents have to care. But at the same time, the parents can't be caring so much for the future of the child, the child starts feeling suffocated right now.

Children will want to play. Say, you know, oh, if you study, you have such a bright future ahead. I want a bright future, but I want some light in the present also.

Isn't it? Isn't it? In the name of brightening my future, you are darkening my present. So, the parents say, you know, you study, no playing at all. Playing is a waste of time.

Well, children will need to play. They need to have some fun. They need to be children.

So, sometimes it happens that, say, some children, maybe they lose their parents or their younger siblings to take care of. Like sometimes, some children have to grow up very fast. And it is laudable that they take up responsibility.

But it is still sad that, you know, they did not get to be children. So, by nature, there are various phases in life. And we go through those phases.

So, similarly, there is a future me, which I definitely want that my future me should be better than my present me. So, we want to care for the future me. But at the same time, we want to care for the present me also.

So, the present, if I care only for the present, if you say, the present me, if I care only for the present me, then I will get stagnated. That if the parents say, oh, my child, you like to play, just keep playing. Then the child will not grow in life.

But if we care only for the future me and not the present me, we will be suffocated. So, each one of us has to find out that balance between we want to brighten our future, but we also want to take care of our present. So, how exactly that will be, that will be different for different people.

So, each one of us will consult our seniors, look at our own experience. And based on that, we decide. Thank you.

Yes. Okay. My question is that sometimes, like, either subtly or grossly, like, pride is one of the anarthas that we have.

So, sometimes, when we are, like, suppose doing any service or sometimes, like maybe something we do it in a good way. So, the pride comes into ourselves. So, how to deal, means, what are the tools that we can use to deal the pride and how to be safe? You see, pride is a very broad word.

It's like, what does pride mean? On a positive side, it can mean a sense of honour. On a negative side, it can mean arrogance. you know, like, or you can say, if there is, what we may use the word self-respect.

Prabhupada uses this, say, when, or in the first, in the fourth canto of Shrimad Bhagavatam, Dhruva's pastime is described. So, there it is said that Narada Muni is appreciating how that, how great is the effulgence of the Kshatriyas, that they cannot tolerate dishonour. The small five-year-old child, because he was dishonoured, he is left home.

So, now that requires, he is saying, how great are the Kshatriyas, what is their splendour? Now, we say, we should all tolerate. Amanina manadena. So, why is Narada Muni saying this? See, the point is that different people are made differently.

And Kshatriyas, by nature, are concerned about honour. But, what happens is, their concern for honour inspires them to behave in honourable ways, to behave in ways that will ensure that their honour is maintained in society. Like, what is that? What is that? So, that is that idea that if I have given my word, I will stick to it.

So, nowadays, people give their word, and that is the only thing they give. So, it's unfortunate. So, honour itself is not a bad thing.

A sense of honour, if a person has, that will ensure that they behave in honourable ways. And some people, that may be more, some people may be less. And the word pride, nowadays, the way it is used, it has a positive connotation, many times.

You have seen so many, like, hotel executive pride, or hotel pride. Like, say, if India and New Zealand are playing a match, it's a five-match series. India has lost all first three matches.

The series is already lost. But they say, then, we will be playing for pride. That means what? We don't want this to be a dishonourable clean sweep.

At least we'll win one or two matches. So, like, I have seen hotel pride. I haven't seen anywhere hotel arrogance.

So, the word arrogance has a clearly negative connotation nowadays. So, we all need a sense of self-worth. We all need, at a basic level, the sense that our existence matters.

That our contributions are of value to someone beyond ourselves. That tomorrow, if I'm not living, it will make some difference to someone. Not that I want to shake the world, but my existence matters.

That's a very deep-rooted need for every human being. One of the needs is a need to be needed. Now, some people have that a lot.

Some people may have that less. But that need to be needed is a part of the human psyche itself. So, if we do some service, and after that we expect some appreciation for that service.

Is that pride? I wouldn't think so. It can be. It's one thing to want appreciation.

That's just acknowledgement that I did some service, and you know, this was for me, you did good. Maybe some things could have improved. There's a difference between seeking appreciation and seeking recognition.

Recognition is that, you know, if I did a good service, you should announce to everyone publicly that I did this great service. Well, sometimes, that service may be special, and we may get that. But a basic level appreciation is just a human need.

And amanina, maan dena. So, what does that maan dena mean? It is not just artificial Prabhuji, Prabhuji, Mataji, Mataji. It's not that.

It's genuinely, we see the good in others, and we appreciate them for that good. That is maan dena. So that's, so now that we cannot say, or we cannot dismiss the need for like basic human appreciation as pride or ego or anything.

Pride in the negative sense, ego or arrogance. So, I would say there are two different things. Appreciation and ego.

Appreciation is more like, I matter. My existence matters. My contributions matter.

Ego is more that I am better than others. That the wanting to be proven or shown or acknowledged to be better than others. That is ego.

And that can lead to destructive competition and other things. But a basic level of appreciation is just a human need. And if we don't fulfil that need, then if we don't develop a culture where we fulfil that need for each other, then we won't have much of a community.

So, we can ourselves observe that when we do some service, are there some people who value us? Everybody will not value us. That's just the way life is. But there are some people who appreciate us, some people who value us.

And in that way, we get that need fulfilled. But I would say if it's more of ego or pride or arrogance in that negative sense, then one way to deal with that is to reflect on our own experience that okay, even if I am praised, even if I am glorified, how much joy does that give me? It's like over the years I have recognised that if somebody praises me publicly and somebody appreciates me privately, it's not just the same thing. You may say, being praised publicly is better.

Not necessarily. If they are praising me publicly, it might just be out of etiquette. It may not be, but it can be.

It's just a part of the culture. If some guest has come, you need to appreciate that guest. But if there is no one watching and they are speaking that appreciation to me alone, then there is no ulterior motive over there, at least generally speaking, unless they want something from me.

So, I can always go to analyse and devalue everything over analytical mode. But my point is that sometimes what the Gopis say, Krishna, when you speak, prahasitam priya premavikshanam, viharanam chate dhyanamangalam, rahasi samvido ya rudhis prushaha. That privately, when we are together, at that time you spoke words of affection to us.

You spoke in romantic lines, sweet nothings. You spoke those words of affection. We remember them.

They touch our heart. So, we can look at our own experience and say, okay, when we are publicly recognised and glorified, how much satisfaction does that give actually? Yes, some satisfaction is there, but it's not that much. Once I gave a class and it was like, I thought it was one of my best prepared classes, almost like every point I had thought out very well, and every point I thought of a good example, and my delivery I thought was very good.

And after that, no one appreciated the class. You know, I was so annoyed. But then, that night when I was journaling, it struck me that actually while I was preparing the class and while I was delivering the class, I was so absorbed because I was connecting with Krishna, I was taking shelter of the philosophy, I was trying to serve through that philosophy, and the amount of satisfaction and absorption that I got when I was preparing the class and when I was delivering the class, that was actually far more than the dissatisfaction I felt because nobody appreciated the class.

So, it's like over a period of time we start realising that the opportunity to immerse ourselves in Krishna is far more fulfilling than the recognition that we get to the service that we do by such immersion. So, it happens gradually. So, three things I would say is, don't mistake the need for appreciation with pride or ego.

And second is that appreciation where we need it, we need to find out circles where we can have that fulfilled. Some people will appreciate it. We need to spend time with those people and they will also give us some constructive feedback that also we can accept.

And third is, if we have that dissatisfaction of not being recognised, then try to look at which are the most satisfying moments in our life. Okay. Thank you.

Yes, please. I have one more question. Can I ask this? Okay.

My question is that you mentioned about instincts or vrittis that we have that are imprinted, that are programmed like insiders. So, that are good that are good aspects inside us. So, how to cultivate them and like rely upon them.

So, like sometimes we see that some instinct is coming but we don't like really believe that it is something from our mind or is it from the instinct that it is coming. It's very difficult to know from where it comes. You know, when something comes from inside, it doesn't come with a nice convenient label.

Is the mind speaking? Is the ego speaking? Is the intelligence speaking? So, the best way to know it is to look at the result. If I do this, where will it take me? And we can look back at our past to say that where has this taken me? So, if somebody is not listening to me and something speaks within me, yell at this person, then I can understand. In the past when I have done this, I just ruined the relationship.

But, maybe we are good at good in a particular way. We may be good at organising, good at writing, good at music. And something says, you know, maybe let's sing this tune in kirtan today or let's write this this way.

So, we can look at our past and see generally what I do comes out well. So, we have to look at the result and to look at the result, we need to look at the past results. That's the best way to do.

Thank you. Thank you. Like you were mentioning that we are secular.

At this point, we are secular. But still we make the Did I use the word secular? I used the word non-sectarian. I'm sorry.

Yes, non-sectarian. But, but still we make the relative comparison with other religions. Like we have one of the standard devisation.

We use the analogy of pocket dictionary and chamber dictionary. And while Prabhupada suggested that you should name the society that God consciousness, Prabhupada said no Krishna consciousness. And Sankaracharya said that if there is only one scripture, it should be Bhagavad Gita.

So, then, being sectarian is a social tactic which we use or is it a fact? Okay. See, it's a good, it's a good question. And I would say there are two distinct aspects to it.

See, every tradition, okay, let me first put it this way that you know, the various traditions, I said some could be exclusivist. Exclusivist means this is the only way. Now, some traditions go to the opposite of the pendulum.

They are what kind of pluralist. Pluralist means there are many ways. Some people say there are as many religions as there are people.

Everyone has their own religion. I was at an interfaith conference where a Christian pastor was telling how challenging it is to preach in the West. He said he was on a radio show and there was one person, he said, you know, I am a Christian.

I don't go to any church, but I am a Christian. So, then, he said, I very respectfully asked that person on the radio show, that person, can I know why you don't go to any church? He said, actually, I haven't yet found any church that agrees with my philosophy. So, some people go to a guru so that the guru may show them their way and others go to the guru so that the guru may sanction their way.

I am a good person. I am doing good things. You just give me some aashirva so that I can continue doing what I want to do.

So, pluralism can, see, exclusivism can go towards fanaticism. Now, pluralism can go towards a total relativism. Now, pluralism sounds very good.

And yes, people have a right to believe what they want. Somebody wants to be an atheist, they have a right to be an atheist. We cannot infringe on people's right to what they want to believe.

But at the same time, with the idea that all paths are right, that is not even logical. Because if all paths are right, then atheism is also right. We are not talking about whether a person can believe that.

We are talking about in terms of actual reality. See, if atheism is right, then all theisms are wrong. Isn't it? So, all paths can't be right.

I gave the example of the different paths to go up the mountain, but that doesn't mean that all paths go up the mountain. Some paths may just go round and round the mountain. Some paths may go away from the mountain into a valley also.

Isn't it? So, pluralism, basically the Abrahamic religions are generally exclusivist. Now, Hinduism is thought of as pluralist. But actually Sanatana Dharma is not so much pluralist, as you can see, it is inclusivist.

Inclusivist means what? There is one purpose and that one purpose includes many paths. It's like one purpose is we want to go to the top of the mountain. For going to the top of the mountain, there can be many paths.

So, that way, we want to raise our consciousness toward developing love of God. So, that's why Prabhupada said that we respect Jesus as our Guru. The idea is love, one side of love is sacrifice.

One characteristic of love is sacrifice. So, Jesus was ready to sacrifice his life. So, that's why we respect.

So, it's that there is one purpose and there can be paths to the purpose. So, in that sense, we are non-sectarian in the sense that the purpose is universal. The purpose does not have to be bound to a particular path alone.

Now, having said that, what happens is that every tradition will see other tradition as I talked about as exclusivist, inclusivist and pluralist as different traditions. It is not that simple. Every tradition will have statements of all three kinds.

It is, exclusive statements are also not a wrong thing. Somebody says, somebody says this is an exclusive statement, but not necessarily. It's like say a patient has come to a doctor and doctor says, okay, you got this disease, take this treatment.

And the patient says, but you know, I went to this doctor and this doctor said that and I went to that doctor and the doctor said that and I went to that doctor and the doctor said that. And this doctor said, just forget what all other doctors told you. Just do this and you'll be cured.

Now, when this doctor is saying, just forget what everyone else told you, that does not necessarily mean that all those doctors are quacks. It is that now you come to me, you take this treatment. So, within a tradition, there could be exclusivist statements, which are primarily meant to create focus.

Although, they can be misinterpreted to lead to fanaticism. Similarly, in every tradition, there may be pluralist statements and that may be to just let go. That is, don't worry if everybody is not following what you are following.

Let them do what they want. And every tradition may also have inclusivist statements. So, for example, Krishna is saying, As all people surrender unto me, I reciprocate.

That means Krishna is accepting that different people may surrender in different ways. And Krishna is not saying, my way or the highway. He is saying, all people are on my way.

So, there could be different ways in which people function. So, the idea is that it depends on the leaders of the tradition at a particular time, which kind of statements they will emphasise. If they emphasise the exclusivist statements primarily, then that tradition, especially its followers, can become fanatic.

So, similarly, other statements. So, the point is, every tradition has the right or you can say even the responsibility to point out the strengths of its path and attract people to that path. So, let's say, somebody might be allopathic doctor, somebody might be naturopathic doctor, somebody might be ayurvedic doctor, sorry, yeah, different kinds of doctors might be there.

They have a common purpose to boost the health of people. Now, sometimes some ayurvedic doctors, you go to them, the first thing that they do is start criticising allopathy. And, okay, yeah, allopathy has its side effects and things like that.

But then in today's lifestyle, maybe allopathy is what works for many people. Ayurveda requires a lot of lifestyle change and that is not possible for some people. So, rather than criticising allopathy, just focus on treating people.

If people are cured, people will come to you. Isn't it? So, does allopathy have a right to promote the special virtues of allopathy? Of course, it has. Does Ayurveda have that right? Ayurveda also has that right.

Now, could it be that Ayurveda is better than allopathy? It depends. It depends on context. For acute diseases, generally, allopathy works better.

For chronic diseases, Ayurveda works better. Just general principles over here. My point is, every tradition can have the right to talk about what is special about the tradition.

But what is special about a particular tradition does not mean that we are demonising other traditions. So, this is the path of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the path of Krishna, the path given by Shri Prabhupada is what we are following because it has benefited us. We have experienced some transformation.

We have experienced some illumination and that's why we are following it. And while we appreciate other paths, is that a public relations tactic? I don't think so because when Prabhupada spoke these statements, like he spoke this, that why are you making me sectarian? It was not in the presence of Muslims and he was not speaking it to Muslims. He was speaking in a private conversation to his disciples.

So, to call that as a PR technique would be, I would say, an imposition of our conceptions on Prabhupada. So, to conclude these two points, that we accept that there can be different paths to God, but that doesn't mean the paths are completely equivalent and interchangeable. Allopathy can have its benefits, Ayurveda can have its benefits.

And we have experienced Krishna consciousness as beneficial and transformational. So, we follow that. Now, Prabhupada generally had two different approaches.

Prabhupada didn't encounter much Muslim people, but he encountered a lot of Christians. So, those who were nominal Christians, he encouraged them to take up Krishna consciousness because at the mercy of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, this is a Yuga Dharma. But those who were devout Christians, Prabhupada would encourage them to become better Christians.

Prabhupada would encourage them to become vegetarian and follow that thou shall not kill. So, Prabhupada had different approaches. So, our purpose is not just to convert people from one religion to another religion.

Our purpose is to transform people from being materialist to be spiritualist. And we have this conviction that the rising of consciousness from materialism to spirituality will happen in the fastest way through Krishna consciousness. That's why we are sharing that.

But if God calls someone, if somebody feels called to God from some other path, you know, we are not here to come in between them and God. But we will try to give them some criteria to evaluate. Are you actually going closer to God or not? So, one basic way to know whether you are going closer to God is, like we discussed, God becomes bigger and the world becomes smaller.

Our attraction to worldly pleasures and worldly fame and worldly power, it decreases and our satisfaction and delight in joy, God increases. Okay? Yes, you had a question? Hare Krishna. Prabhuji, as you said earlier about like we are part and partial of Krishna.

So, we have that mentality of controllership and enjoyership. So, we have the anarthas also. So, is it because of Krishna or how and why do we have it? Of course, I know that Krishna doesn't have any anarthas, then how come we have that? Yes.

Are anarthas because of Krishna? Well, you could say yes and no. And I was in Australia, one devotee asked a question that, as a new person becoming a devotee, he said, you know, if God wants us to make good choices, then why are the bad choices so many in this world? And the good choices so less? So, I said, that's how it always is in any multiple choice exam. So, you can say, even the wrong choices come from the teacher.

Isn't it? But, the teacher has also given us the education by which we know which choice to make. So, yes, in the Vishnu Sastranam, it is said that anyway, what is it? Anyway, the three names are there, that he is the fulfiller of desire, he is the fulfilment of desire and he is desire also. That, Kamada, Kamaha, Kamaha.

So, Kamada is the fulfiller of desire. Kamaha is the destroyer of desire. Kamaha is the, he is the supreme desirable.

So, basically, that Anartha, what does the word Anartha mean? Anartha means that we see Artha, things which don't have much Artha, like somebody has alcoholism as Anartha, that means, they see great value in alcohol which has very little value. So, now, where is that taste of alcohol coming from? Ultimately, nothing attractive can exist without Krishna. The attractiveness of everything is a spark of Krishna's supreme attractiveness.

But some sparks, they take us toward Krishna. Some sparks take us away from Krishna. So, there will be two singers and both of them are good singers in the sense that they have good musical and singing ability.

But, one may be singing very explicit sensual songs that trigger lust in people. Somebody is singing devotional songs that evoke bhakti in people. The singing ability of both comes from Krishna.

But, connecting with the singing ability of one person may take us away from Krishna and connecting with the singing ability of another person may take us closer to Krishna. So, it is for us to choose. So, we could say that nothing comes independent of Krishna.

Nothing exists independent of Krishna. But, if anarthas are present inside us, it is not because Krishna placed them there. It is Krishna only gives us options.

If he has given us free will, he has to give us options to choose according to our free will. But then, when we make some choices repeatedly, those choices create impressions within us. And those impressions, they become anarthas.

So, you could say that the anarthas have come within us by our own past actions. But, we can make better choices and as we make better choices, we will keep moving closer and closer to Krishna. One more question.

Can I ask? Like, you were answering one of the devotees this question. So, you know, you were saying that one devotee was asking that we don't have that conviction. You know, we were doing some bad things and ISKCON people came and they suggested that these are the things which we were doing.

And they find it nice or good, whatever it is. So, they came in Krishna consciousness. But, they don't have that conviction.

So, this will, of course, not last long that much. So, how come we can get that conviction so that, you know, we can fulfil Prabhupada mission or support or help in this mission? Yeah. So, it is look at the things that we are convinced about.

Look at our experience. See that what are the aspects that we have experienced to be true. And start with that, build on that.

So, it's like you have to build a skyscraper. We start by building, putting one brick and then gradually the skyscraper is built. So, like that, we want to see, okay, what is it that I am convinced about right now? And focus on that.

And then build on that. Okay, this is something I am convinced about. Let me see if this also works.

And then let me see what is my life experience, what is my personal understanding. So, it's incremental. So, as we try things out and we see that they do work for us, that we learn some principles and we apply them and improve the quality of our life.

So, generally the purpose of philosophy is to help us make sense. Make sense of things that don't make sense. There is much that doesn't make sense.

But when you study the philosophy, okay, why is the world like this? Why do bad things happen to good people? Or why do good people do bad things at times? There are so many things, questions that come up. And then we, just the normal conduct of life will bring questions. And then we try to see the answers that come from Shastra.

If we consider that scripture is like a manual, then I prefer the word guidebook rather than manual because manual seems very simplistic. You press this button, this will happen. You pull this lever, this will happen.

Life is not, life is too complicated to have any manual. But if there were a guidebook for a machine, what would happen? The machine would make better sense to us. And we would be able to function better with it.

Similarly, we can see, scripture will help us to make better sense of life. Our gyanendriyas will be able to perceive the world better. And scripture will help us to make better sense in our life through our actions.

Our actions will become more meaningful, more judicious. So, if those two things are happening, make sense in terms of the gyanendriyas, we are able to better understand what is happening. And we make better sense into our karmendriyas.

So, as we see this happening, gradually the conviction will become more and more internalised. Okay. Thank you.

Maybe one or two questions. Where is the mic? Hare Krishna. Thank you for your valuable association.

So, during discussion of nine process of devotional service, as you said, sraddha keeps increasing as time passes. And so, the same thing is happening with me also. Sraddha is increasing as time is passing through bhajankriya and sadhusangha.

But, one thing that always disturbs me on this path is there is no enough peacefulness of mind. So, in Bhagavad Gita, in chapter 5, verse 29, Prabhupada says, this is the peace formula, Bhokta, Ramya, Gita, Pashyam. So, can you please tell me, how can I apply this peace formula on my life to become more peaceful? Well, peacefulness is overrated.

Well, why I am saying this is, if you consider a relationship, generally, for many people, spirituality, they have more of an impersonalist idea. So, you become peaceful, shant, and that is one aspect of it. But, if you see there is a real relationship, in a real, deep, serious relationship, there is a gamut of emotions.

Sometimes, in a relationship, there is joy. We love and care for someone and we meet them after a long time. There is joy.

Sometimes, when two people care for each other, they may just sit together, they may not even talk, but there is a comfortable silence. When two people don't like each other, there is a very uncomfortable silence. So, now, there can be peace.

Sometimes, when two people relate with each other, there can even be anxiety. Say, if a couple have a child, and the child has had some accident in school, and the child has been taken to the hospital, the mother and the father, both of them rush to the hospital, and the child is doing some surgery, is happening. Now, both of them are together, both of them are in anxiety, but even that anxiety brings them together.

We are in that shared anxiety, we are caring for the child. So, if two devotees are doing a service together, and something is going wrong in that service, then sometimes the worry about that service can bring them closer to each other. So, in bhakti, it's a relationship with Krishna.

And the relationship can mean that there are variety of emotions, sometimes there is excitement. Now, we are trying to do something wonderful for Krishna, and it's about to happen. Say, we work to do a festival, and the festival is just unfolding now.

We are organising a rath yatra, we are doing janmashtami, we are doing some big festival. There is excitement. So, in a real relationship, there is a variety of emotions.

It is bhakti, rasa, amrut, sindhu. So, it is rasa, amrut, it is not just shanti. Now, of course, we all need a certain level of peacefulness.

Now, beyond that, a relationship can just give us a strong sense of purpose. And if you see, in one sense, being purposeful and being peaceful can always be opposite at external level. When Prabhupada was sitting in Vrindavan, it was quite peaceful.

Now, he was respected as a sanyasi over there. And when Prabhupada went to America, there was anxiety. He said, I didn't know whether to turn left or right.

But, there was a deeper purpose. So, in the Bible, it is said, the peace that passeth all understanding. What it means is, to the material vision, it doesn't look like peace.

But, at a deeper level, we are convinced, this is what I am meant to do. And, I am a part of Krishna, this is what I am meant to do in service of Krishna. And, knowing that we are doing what we are meant to do, that brings a deep level of peace.

Even if, at an external level, there is anxiety, there is uncertainty, there is fear, there is a variety of emotions. So, first thing is that, we don't just come to bhakti to be peaceful. We come to bhakti to develop a relationship with Krishna.

So, that's why, we shouldn't, that's why I started by saying, peace is overrated. Now, having said that, peace is also a need of the human mind. Just like we want some excitement, we want a variety of emotions.

Let's say, people watch horror movies. Why? You could say, to be horrified is also an emotional need. Well, like, you know, we have this bibhatsa, one of the rassa, bhayanaka bibhatsa.

So, we are stimulated by various kinds of emotions. So, for some people, the need for peace may be more. For some people, the need for peace may be less.

That's also one need. So, we do need to have some space, where that need can be fulfilled. And, if we find ourselves constantly being agitated, and we are feeling ourselves insecure or fragile, bitter, feel as if I'll break down at any time now, the way things are happening, then maybe we need to withdraw, maybe cut down some responsibilities, at least for some time.

And then, do the things that strengthen us, that help us to become more peaceful. So, that need, based on our particular situation, we can try to satisfy it. And create the space for satisfying that need.

But, overall, bhakti is about having a relationship with Krishna. And, that relationship brings peace, but that relationship is far bigger than just peace alone. Okay? Last question? Okay, yes, bro.

In previous classes, we discussed about finding the right war and fighting. First thing to realise that we are in war. And then, finding the right easier wars.

But, bro, what happens sometimes, because of picking the wrong war, difficult things to do, and failing in them repeatedly, and the determination to fight a war or do anything gets lost. So, the determination only gets lost. So, it is very difficult to find anything to do.

So, that is very difficult to… Yes, you can say, one of my services is writing. So, generally, they say, if you want to write, you should read well-written books. And you will find inspiration.

That, you know, this is the way things are written, so beautifully the message is conveyed. But, I read in one writing book, they said, you should read terribly written books. Which is why, after reading such books, you will feel driven by anger.

If crap like this can be published, then I can also be published. So, like that, you know, we say, the carrot and stick approach. So, like that, the human mind is complex.

And what will motivate us at what time? We can't have a predictable formula for it. So, we can have positive motivations, and we can have negative motivations. So, positive motivations means that how by fighting this war, I can become better.

Say, by studying Shastra, maybe five years down the line, I can also become a speaker. I can share Krishna's message with others. I can answer difficult questions.

That could be positive motivation. But, negative motivation can also come by knowing that if we don't fight a war, things can become worse. And, we may say, okay, nothing will happen.

I'll just stay the way I am. But, it doesn't work like that. Maya will be creeping in our consciousness.

And, if we don't define some boundaries, then Maya will keep attacking, keep attacking. Like China, if India doesn't take a stand, it'll keep encroaching, keep encroaching, keep encroaching. And, that's how Doklam, the whole area now, is under Chinese control.

So, in Arunachal Pradesh also, they're trying to do that. So, what happens is that negative motivation also, if I don't fight, that is where I can end up with. One of my friends, an alcoholic anonymous, he says that they have this principle that whenever they see an alcoholic, a person who is drunk and dysfunctional, they say, but for God's mercy, that would have been me.

That means that if God had not been merciful to me, I might have ended up in that plight. So, it is also that sometimes the rewards of winning can motivate us, but sometimes the dangers of losing can motivate us also. Okay, maybe I will not be able to win and become better, but at the very least, I don't want to become worse.

So, in this inner war, we won't just stay where we are if we're not fighting. So, we have to find out what motivates us and we have to explore and sometimes it's sometimes one thing will motivate us, sometimes another thing will motivate us. So, we have to have ready an array of weapons and see which weapon will work.

It's a tough battle. There's no easy formula because the mind is unpredictable, but we try various things and we find sometimes this will work, sometimes this will work and sometimes that will work, sometimes that thing will work for some time and then after that, everything will start working. So, it's difficult, but keep trying and especially one thing is if you have taken up some responsibilities, that helps a lot because in general, I'll conclude with this metaphor.

You know this game of wall climbing, is it common in India? Like people climb up a wall, you know, you hold on to something and you pull yourself up and you pull yourself up, pull yourself up. So, in general for us, when we are trying to grow spiritually, it's like wall climbing and there are these like objects, like grips we can hold on to. Sometimes the grip will be right in front, sometimes the grip will be far away, sometimes the grip will be over here.

So, in general, for us, there are four grips. We have to find one of these grips. So, like one grip is emotion.

I feel like doing it. Another grip is reason. This is good for me, that's why I'll do it.

Another grip is relationship. That, you know, I don't feel like doing this, but this is what this relationship means. Like, a mother who has a baby and the baby starts crying in the middle of the night.

You know, the mother can't say, you know, this baby is crying too much, I don't want to be a mother anymore. No! No, a relationship means that there are certain things we should do in the relationship. So, and then beyond that is responsibility.

So, basically, for us, one of these grips will be there. So, if we expect emotion to be the only grip, I feel like doing it. That grip is sometimes way up, you know, we can't even reach that grip.

But then, okay, reason is there. Sometimes the relationship is there, you know. And for this person, I don't want to displace this person.

So, for your sake, I will do it. So, we broadly have these grips and we try to have as many grips as possible. So, if we take up responsibilities, then that will inspire us to do things even when we don't feel like doing things.

So, that's one way to take things forward. So, thank you very much. So, I am grateful to all of you for your very enthusiastic participation, your thoughtful questions, and your very engaged hearing.

Generally, October, November is the time when I go to Australia, New Zealand. I think I went for Durga Puja after many years I've been here. So, I am grateful to be here with all of you and it is a joy to see how enthusiastic all of you were to hear and learn.

I was telling Hanuman that, you know, that all of you are so enthusiastic that I didn't have to make any effort to entertain you. Many times you have to give a class, you have to become an entertainer. So, I become tired of entertaining.

So, all of you are so interested that, you know, I don't know if you are entertained or not, but I was entertained. So, I am very grateful to all of you for being so enthusiastic and I pray that whatever we discussed about the journey of bhakti help you in moving forward in your relationship with Krishna and that if it helps you in any way you also pray for me that I can continue in my journey to Krishna. Thank you very much.

Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna. Satyanacharan Prabhu Ki Jai.

Essentially we are all indebted to Prabhuji that I remember that Prabhuji, as Prabhuji said that Prabhuji during this time is in the west generally, but he was very conscious.