Talk show – Ecology & Spirituality

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soon thank you hello everyone welcome to our talk show today we have with us Chaitanya Charan Das he is an acclaimed author many years he has been an invited speaker at several international conferences organized by UNESCO where he has spoken on interface of science and spirituality and he has also given lectures at colleges universities and companies all over the world from Australia to America he is the author of 18 books on contemporary application of spiritual wisdom and his articles appear regularly in several Indian newspapers which include the reputed speaking tree in the times of India so we are very happy to have you here and welcome you thank you so in this show we would like to learn a little bit more about how the ecology or the environment is related to spirituality or how can we see from a spiritual viewpoint about the ecological problems that we are facing in this day and age where the water, the air, the land and there is so much pollution all over the world how can we see this from a spiritual point of view and what solutions it has to offer yeah actually the environmental crisis is probably among the world’s biggest problems today and many thinkers saying that we are on the verge of ecological disaster if we don’t do anything and there are multiple causes some of those may be natural but definitely there is a substantial element of man-made causes and rather than just looking specifically at this industry is causing this much pollution or this industry is this is the chemical that has gone so much high carbon carbon emission or whatever the specifics are important to deal with at a specific level but we have to go to fundamentals and at a fundamental level we have to examine the vision that we have of nature if we look back at pre-industrial Europe Europe and its world view has actually spread all over the world that is America or India or all over the world so pre-industrialization Europe had a world view which is very similar to the world views that were present in most of the ancient and medieval traditions that was of subordination to nature that nature had its own mysterious powers and balances and we were advised not to tamper with them now of course we could argue at that time we did not have the technological power to subordinate nature and that’s why we were subordinate to them and now that we have acquired technological power then we should control it and that was in fact the attitude that led to the indiscriminate exploitation of natural resources so while trying to exploit resources like this we overlooked in a wondrous way the many balances and interconnections that actually exist throughout the ecosystem of the world the biosphere is a delicate balance and when we try to fiddle with any one thing thinking that okay by mining we will get by removing the forest we can expand our industries or whatever this has to be done much more thoughtfully there’s a biologist E.O. Wilson he did a study of the interrelationship between all the contribution of the various species in the planet to the ecosystem of the planet and he found that if any species if it was if it became extinct that would cause some problem to the ecology for example if the plants if the shrub and the vegetation the ground all that got extinct then the herbivorous animals would suffer if the herbivorous animals got extinct the carnivores would suffer but he found that there’s one species if it became extinct there would be no problem for anyone in the ecosystem no guesses which one is it? I think it’s a human being yes not very flattering about us so we are we are not just redundant we are actually a burden in fact you take this situation around and say if humans became extinct most of the problems in the ecology would be solved this is unflattering and sobering if we consider a classroom then if there’s one student who is known to be especially brilliant and if you find that that student’s contribution to the class is actually negative and the teacher is considering expelling the student from the class maybe the class order and the class performance will become better by expelling that student then we’ll consider what’s happening so if we consider we human beings are actually the most intelligent among the species in nature that’s how we have transformed nature in so many ways that’s how we have got science technology language literature architecture music all this we have got through our advanced human intelligence and yet the most intelligent of all the species is actually causing the most damage so what exactly is wrong so the spiritual worldview explains to us that we are meant to contribute to the ecology at a level higher than the material the Bhagavad Purana or the Shrimad Bhagavatam is an ancient devotional classic from among the wisdom texts of India and it describes a conceptual vision of creation and it describes how the source of everything created all living beings and he was not satisfied at that time finally he created human beings and human beings had the facility had the faculty to inquire about spiritual truths and when the humans were created he felt satisfied now the purpose of creation is being fulfilled can be fulfilled that means we human beings are actually meant for spiritual inquiry we are meant for finding spiritual satisfaction that is what will satisfy us when we neglect our spiritual side then we seek disproportionate pleasure at the physical level all living beings have four bodily drives the drive we want food shelter we need food we need sleep we need sex we need defense now among all these four needs if we consider we human beings are practically the only species that does this excessively some people eat so much that they get morbidly obese today in the world there are some statistics there are 800 million people who are undernourished but there is 1 million people who are obese so more people are facing problems because of eating too much rather than eating less so similarly if we consider each of these activities no bins, something is recyclable, something is not recyclable.
So reduce, reuse, recycle. These are very valuable. But spirituality adds a fourth one.
That is revise. Revise your conception of life. It’s only when we revise our conception of life, then we will get the impetus for doing these things, for changing these things.
Because as long as I think that trappings of material success are the sources of happiness, then if somebody tells me to live simply, what is the reason I should do this? You guys are, for example, say among the third world and the first world, there is a conflict about who should cut down on the things which cost the ecology a lot. So the first world has got a lot of facilities now and the first world is saying, third world, you don’t do these things because these are going to cost the planet a lot. But then third world is saying, you know what, you are enjoying these facilities, why should we not have those facilities? You are responsible for the mess on the planet.
Now it is your problem to fix it. But when India became independent, as the Britishers asked India, asked Gandhi, they said that now that India is free, will India follow the British model of development? So Gandhi replied that actually Britain is a small country and to develop according to its conception of development, it needed resources from the whole earth. India is dozens of times bigger than Britain.
To develop the British way, we will need dozens of earths and we have only one earth. So we can’t adopt that model. Unfortunately still, India did adopt that model to some extent.
But the point which he made was true. We need a more sustainable model of development. So just to give one example of what you are asking about, what can be practically done.
So it is not just a matter of world view. Exactly. That is what I was wondering about.
I understand that spirituality can offer a good world view, a good conceptual understanding. But does it only stop there or is there anything practical that spirituality has to offer that can really help in solving the problems that we are facing? So what are the practical things which can be done at a spiritual level? Spiritual is often the foundation for the practical. It’s like if in a particular garden weeds are growing and I uproot the weeds and I put vegetables over there.
But the soil over there is not suitable for vegetables. Just changing what I am growing over there is not enough. I have to change the medium in which it is growing.
Sometimes I may have to change the top soil, get a more conducive top soil and then the vegetables will grow over there. So similarly, the changing our actions is like changing the growth in a garden. Changing our conceptions is like changing the soil.
So reformation requires reformulation. So reformation is change of actions. Reformulation is change of conceptions.
So change of conceptions alone is not enough. That is essential. Change of conceptions is the basis for the change of actions.
That means, if we consider the general guideline of ecologists that live simple. Don’t consume so many products which are going to degrade the ecology. And what will give one the impetus to live simple? So the impetus for simple living comes from having access to sources of happiness that do not depend on flashy living.
So we have simple living, we have flashy living. So if we are told that don’t live flashy, live simple. But flashy living gives some pleasure.
So nobody can live without pleasure. So if people get access to means for non-material enrichment, then simple living becomes more easy to do. Otherwise, it is seen as deprivation.
So spirituality changes the soil, changes our conceptions and thereby gives us an impetus, the conviction to change our actions. The world over will see that there are intelligent people who are choosing to live in eco-friendly communities. Intelligent people who could be prospering phenomenally in terms of contemporary definitions of success.
They could be having big jobs in big companies. They could be having their own companies. And they are choosing to live lives of voluntary simplicity in eco-friendly communities.
Now what is inspiring them? Now there can be of course for many different inspirations. But a major inspiration is they feel that there must be something more to life than this endless treadmill of work more, buy more, work more, buy more, work more, buy more. So they are looking for simple living because they have got a sense that there is something higher to life.
So spiritual wisdom takes that sense and develops it. Not just a sense there is something higher, it actually helps us to access that which is higher. And therefore simpler living, wherever we are, that becomes easier when we are living spiritually.
Yes, I think we need a good understanding of why one needs to act and then how to act will become much more easier. If the why is understood, then how will become easier. I think that is what you are trying to emphasize on.
That is really nice. So when you were replying, you also said something about eco-friendly communities and living. So I was kind of trying to reflect on that thought.
Then what does spirituality encourage? Whether it encourages one to kind of live as our ancestors used to live in olden times, like live in a village, don’t live in big buildings and apartments or live in big cities. So what does spirituality encourage? Is it required for somebody to practice spirituality that he can go and live in a forest or a village or is it possible that one can still do it when living in a city? I would like to know some thoughts on it. So spirituality is primarily a change of intention, not necessarily a change of location, change of intention.
What is it that I am living for? So where I am living is not as important as where I am going. What is the purpose of my life? Where do I want to go? So it is not necessary that villages are always eco-friendly. There can be many villages where they may also be living in eco-unfriendly ways.
Of course, without the industrial, without products of modernization, the scale of ecological damage that they cause may not be much. But it is not automatic that just rural living is necessarily eco-friendly or it is necessarily spiritual. Nor is it necessary that urban living always has to be eco-unfriendly or it has to be anti-spiritual.
The point is the intention. So certainly, we can make that change and bring a greater level of simplicity wherever we are living. So we could use, even if you are living in cities, we could use products which are more eco-friendly.
We could try to use sources of fuel which are renewable instead of non-renewable. We could, wherever we are living, find out ways in which we can live more simply. And some people may feel inspired to actually set up a community to demonstrate and experience and relish eco-friendly living in rural settings.
So if that’s an individual inspiration, that’s wonderful. And we do need such people who are inspired. They are very precious exemplars for today’s society of an alternative way of living.
But it is unlikely that the alternative will become mainstream in the near future. So a significant number of people will be living in cities. But if it is also seen that there are intelligent people living productively, living fulfilled lives in villages, then the excessive glamorization of urban living that is happening because of which there is continuous immigration from the rural places to the urban places, and that leads to a whole variety of problems and the destabilization of the whole economic systems, that can be avoided.
So rather than thinking that we have to turn back the clock, spirituality is about turning on the compass. The compass is our own inner guide. Okay, what is it that I’m living for? What am I meant to do in life? And with that inner compass turned on, we will ourselves know what I should do, what I should not do.
And we will voluntarily choose to live simpler wherever we are. That makes sense. It’s very helpful, especially for those who live in cities.
I think it’s pretty reassuring and it’s pretty helpful, I guess, that one can still try to be spiritual and be sincere in whatever he does, and try to be as eco-friendly or as eco-conscious as one can be. So that’s really helpful. Now, what I was thinking is this, these problems that we are facing are kind of global in nature.
They are like, you know, it’s a big scale, massive scale. So I was wondering if spirituality, what can one do on an individual, like, you know, if I’m an individual, and if I want to create an impact on the world, try to help the world environmentally or ecologically, like, how can spirituality help an individual to make a practical and significant impact that he can make in this world at an individual level for a global problem? When we see global problems, there is a tendency to feel powerless. And we feel, what can my small changes make any difference? And then we stay on the way we are.
Actually, suppose, right now, the lights go off over here. For a few moments, you might get irritated, you might curse. Now, if, say, the whole city light goes off because of something, what would we do? We would immediately take out our flashlight, our mobile, and turn on our flashlight.
The flashlight does not replace the city lights, but the flashlight shows us our way. And similarly, if, say, 100 people take out their flashlights, but a significant light. In our day-to-day life, if suddenly we are plunged into darkness, we do not waste our time cursing the darkness.
Although, removing that darkness and bringing back the normal light is not in our power. What we do is, we turn on the light that is in our power to turn on. So, do not curse the darkness.
Light one candle. The same way, there is ecological darkness in the world today. So, we may feel that it is too big a problem for me to solve, but our individual resource is the only resource that we have.
And each of us can be a powerful, transforming example. So, if every one of us thinks that, what will my alone changing do? Which of us thinks, you know, I can make a small difference. But if it is small, it is significant.
The flashlight that you turn on, it shows you, it’s significant for you. It may not be significant for the whole city. It’s significant for you.
So, it’s significant. And if we all think that, let me make the small significant changes that I can make. Let me look at my own life.
What can I do to become more green in my life? If, for example, the Food and Agriculture Organization has said that, if all over the world people became vegetarian, then the amount of land that is required to feed, to produce the fodder that is used to feed animals, which are then eaten by human beings, all that land will become free for going crops for human consumption. And not just the whole world could be fed, actually 10 times the world’s population could be fed. And not only that, you say, oh, becoming vegetarian is very difficult for me.
I can’t do that. Well, take one step. Even if people decrease their meat consumption by 10 percent, that would substantially increase the resources available for developing food for humans.
So, wherever we are, let’s take small steps in becoming more eco-friendly. And as we take those small steps, we’ll ourselves feel reassured and inspired to take bigger steps. The change begins with us.
That’s really enlightening. Small steps can make a big difference. So, I think we had a wonderful time with you here, and I hope our viewers also gained a valuable experience and they learned something new.
Thank you so much for being here with us on the show. Thank you. We hope to see you again.
Thank you.