The Monk’s Podcast 66 with Devamrita Maharaja – Pandemic – Reimagining the human project

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Humble obeisances, Devamrith Maharaj. Thank you very much for sparing your time to come for the Monks Podcast. Ever since I started this, the devotees who have been watching me have been requesting that please invite Devamrith Maharaj.
Please invite Devamrith Maharaj. He’s one of the foremost intellectuals in our movement. So thank you very much, Maharaj.
So I thought today we could discuss on the topic of the pandemic and how to have a compassionate attitude in the pandemic, how to present our wisdom in a way that is sensitive and compassionate. Is that OK with you, Maharaj? Yes, it’s something I’ve thought about deeply. You see, before the pandemic struck, we were, as bhakti yogis presenting the bhakti realities and transcendental realities, we were in a bit of the same boat as the ecologists, the environmentalists, in terms of presenting something that seemed not of immediate impact.
So if you study the challenges that the environmental movement had to face for many decades, they come in the form of a quintet, which actually applies to us also as bhakti yoga proponents. OK. So first, there used to be a thing known as distance.
Climate change, well, that’s the end of the 21st century. It’s so far away. OK.
Then there’s something called dissonance in which, yes, I know there are very negative human behaviors upon the environment, but anyway, I just can’t compute. Oh, the dissonance in the sense of cognitive dissonance. It’s there, but it doesn’t fit in my worldview.
OK. Right. Exactly.
And the third one is doomsday. No one likes to hear doomsday stuff if you’re in the first world or the second world. Yes, that’s true.
It’s not very popular. So there’s something in the conditioned consciousness of human beings that automatically clicks off whenever you present something that resembles doomsday talk. In other words, well, perhaps Krishna in Bhagavad Gita explains it best.
Asha, Pasha, Shatara, Bhatta. Bound by a network of false hopes. In that way, the mind drives material existence with a false sense of optimism.
And so we don’t want to hear anything that resembles the end is nigh. Doomsday is upon us. So that’s the third thing.
The third problem we share with the environmentalists. The fourth one is denial. Just outright rejection.
No, no, no. The whole environmental movement is using scare tactics. And finally… Sorry, you thought about these four words? Very striking four Ds.
I have discovered these principles in my perusal of what the environmentalists have to go through because they’ve been thinking for decades. Why aren’t people heeding us? Why aren’t people reacting? Yeah, beautiful. OK, thank you.
So the fifth one is designation. Because I have a certain religion, I have a certain ethnicity or political affiliation. I can’t accept what you’re saying.
So denial is neglect, but designation is more. It’s a ideological confrontation or it’s more based on one’s own worldview that you are like this. So I won’t accept it.
So it’s more intellectual designation. Worldview, yes. But even more particularly, your packaging, your political packaging, your ethnic packaging, your nationalistic packaging, your religious packaging.
You automatically take shelter of that and therefore reject anything, any view or information that doesn’t resonate with your bodily designation. Oh, OK. So designation and dissonance, the difference is that in dissonance, I don’t know how to process it.
So I put it aside. But in designation, I have a worldview by which I have a particular way of looking at it, by which I relegate it to the background. Is that the difference? Not simply I have a worldview.
I am my political affiliation. I am my religious affiliation. OK, yes.
Yes, I’ve seen in America. I am a certain nationality. Yeah, I think in American debates, the conservatives are often quite vehement opposers to the climate change issues.
They sometimes are deniers, but they also say that this is exaggerated and this is. So that would be one example of a political orientation that could lead to. Because I belong to a certain political party.
We ascribe to certain doctrines and therefore case closed. OK, yes. So it’s interesting that in presenting the bhakti yoga wisdom, sometimes we face the same hurdles.
Well, you’re talking about reincarnation. You’re talking about the supreme destination. You’re talking about pure spiritual attainment and existence.
You know, I got to deal with down here on the ground, right here and now. I’ve got, you know, university debts to pay. I’ve got crises at my workplace.
I’ve got relationship problems, you know. And here you are with this other worldly spiritual stuff, which is far removed. And you say that I should be, you say I should be concerned with the future.
But the future is so far away. Yeah. It’s beautiful that distance, then there is a dissonance.
So I can’t fit this spiritual business in my world view. It’s too much. I like what you’re saying, but click.
I can’t compute. You’re a nice guy, but click. My system, my information processing system just switched off.
Yes. So it’s like Dhritarashtra in the Mahabharata says that to Vidura, that what you say, I hear it, but it’s like lightning. It illumines for a few moments and then it goes off.
So something like that. That’s very striking. That’s a good one.
Yeah. Well, if we talk about denial, the fourth one, what you said in the Mahabharata reminds me of what a famous American comedian said. I think you say this in your book.
I think it comes in like 34 ways in India. You remember everything. I already made up my mind.
Don’t confuse me with the facts. Right. The mind is already made up.
Don’t try to confuse me with the facts. Yes. Amazing.
Yeah. And you talked also about doomsday and how that’s not the most palatable message to give or to receive. Yeah.
Have you, I wonder, heard of something called the Just World Syndrome? Just World Syndrome? No, no, Maharaj. Especially American sociologists have discussed it. It’s a syndrome that as long as I work hard and I’m an honest person and try to do good, bad things won’t happen to me.
And bad things shouldn’t happen to my country, to the area where I live. After all, the world includes innocent children. Surely, if you just endeavor nicely and be a good citizen, good things should happen and certainly no very bad things should happen.
This is a mindset that environmentalists have discovered blocks people’s mind to their message. Climate change. Look, you know, we’re nice citizens, nice people.
Climate change. Oh, that’s for Bangladesh. But for us in the first world.
We’re Christians. We believe in democracy, capitalism. Everything should work out because we hold all the right beliefs.
So the world can’t treat us in an unjust way. Why would my children and all the children in my suburbs, my affluent suburbs, why should they suffer? What kind of world would make them suffer? So therefore, I can’t process what you’re saying. Oh, okay.
So this would be designation, an example of designation. Or what do you think it could be? Denial. It’s also part of doomsday, I would think.
Wouldn’t you say? Oh, okay. Yeah. I don’t think this will happen to me.
This is. Yeah, makes sense. I’m a good person.
I mean, one fourth of the Bangladesh could be underwater like a few weeks ago. But, you know. But in a good, wholesome country, such things shouldn’t happen.
That’s what that’s the way people think. Yeah. It’s true.
I know in recently Bengal, there was in West Bengal, there was a flood, severe flood. So normally these things don’t happen so often in India. We don’t have like storms and floods.
So often when we hear about it also, okay, these things don’t happen here. How did this happen? So India has some weather extremes, but earthquakes or hurricanes, they are not that common in India. As compared to, say, in some parts of America.
Yeah, makes sense what you’re saying, Maharaj. So, thank you. So my point was that I’ve noticed over the years, up until the pandemic hit, and also up until the brutal blows of climate change are starting to hit.
Up until this time, our bhakti message had to encounter similar hurdles as what the environmental movement has to, had to deal with. Yes. So how do you feel the pandemic has changed that? Since you say till now it was like that, but have you seen an increased spiritual urgency among people because of the pandemic? Yes, I’ve definitely seen that in the first world.
Persons are pushed to think more deeply. The transitoryness, the fleetingness of life is really in their face. And the great human beings with all their hubris are powerless now.
The greatest nations in the world are powerless. They’re being ravaged and devastated. And so, naturally, that makes people wonder, where is shelter? What can I depend on? Reminds me of an old rhyme that little kids learn.
I don’t know if they would chant this rhyme in India, maybe due to the influence of the British. They might have done so in the schools for the little ones. Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. Yeah. All the king’s horses and all the king’s men couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty together again.
Did you learn that one in school? I heard the first two lines, not the remaining two. So all the king’s men means that all our best efforts, we can’t really bring things back together again. Right.
Yeah. I noticed that people are starting to think about human beings. What are they up to? What are they good for? You see, it used to be that people would wonder, how do I live a good life? What are good things to do? What are good things to feel? How to feel good? How to do good? Now, I see the questions have become much more fundamental.
What is life good for in of itself? Never mind feeling good, doing good. What is life itself good for? Why should we just… What’s the point to breathing, bleeding and breeding? What’s the point of it all? Yeah, beautiful. So what’s the point? Any moment, pandemic will strike you down.
And then, of course, other ongoing super threats to human existence. But if you ask me, I’ll get into it more, but I don’t want to bring any dark clouds into the sky. Although human beings have expertly done that, but I don’t want to point it out.
You’re tempting me now. So you’re referring to other environmental disasters or weapons of mass destruction or are you referring to the globalized order or what? We talked about the quintet before that I hold shares with the environmentalist. And then we have what used to be a set of twins, apocalyptic twins.
Twins of apocalypse. On one side, you had climate change. On the other side, the other twin is the threat of nuclear detonations.
So persons who are aware of the world situation have been worried about these two twins for a few decades. But now, like it or not, whether we want to talk about it or not, those twins have expanded into triplets. So you’ve got the nuclear threat, you’ve got the climate change threat, and now you’ve got zoonotic diseases, the pandemic.
Oh, yeah, all three. The whole set of triplets is more than our current wisdom stock and material society can handle. Yeah, so true.
It’s think people don’t think so much about the weapons of mass destruction right now, because maybe the Cold War has ended. But now, instantly in between India and China, hostilities increased. China and America also hostilities have increased.
North Korea and America, it was there. So that is also there. It may not be that prominent as it was during the Cold War.
But weapons of mass destruction are also serious. Political scientists, globalists are saying now that the current danger for nuclear exchanges is the same as it was during the peak of the Cold War. All the international treaties are being shredded and tossed out.
The U.S. is spending for the next 30 years, they plan. $1.2 trillion minimum for upgrading the nuclear arsenal. We can’t conceive of what $1.2 trillion is.
For those familiar with our Bhakti projects in India, such as the temple of Vedic planetarium, $1.2 trillion is over 16,000 temples of Vedic planetarium. Oh, God. So they say this is just to make the system more efficient.
But actually, honest nuclear scientists have pointed out that what’s going on is that the killing power will increase by three times. Now, let’s not just consider the major nuclear powers. You also have regional nuclear powers, whose names we won’t mention, on a particular subcontinent.
Yeah, that is true. Okay, each one of them possesses 130 nukes. That’s enough to affect the whole Southern Hemisphere.
Whole Southern Hemisphere? Yes. Yes. Affect means destroy? Change the weather, cause hunger, food problems, severe impact on the climate, which then results in more human suffering.
So my question would be, to those boosters, those supporters of human progress, how many nuclear weapons does it take to destroy the planet? It just takes a few hundred. But between Russia and the US, they possess approximately 12,000. And now China wants to increase? In the world right now, there are about 15,000 nuclear weapons, 90% held by US and Russia.
All right, there are hostilities, there are antagonisms, but how many times over do you need to destroy the planet? That’s my question. Yeah. We bhakti yogis are not pie-in-the-sky dreamers.
After all, the Bhagavad Gita is based on a battlefield. Of course, it was a battle based on dharma, but still, we’re not pie-in-the-sky. But look, okay, you’ve got a problem with some other nation, some other people, but how many nukes does it take to sort out the situation? It just takes a few hundred to obliterate the whole planet, and you’ve got, in the whole world, 15,000.
I’m saying this not to bring doom into your life, but just to point out, human beings have a big problem. I guess that’s my theme. Yeah.
So, you know, are we critiquing progress itself or are we critiquing the human mentality underlying the progress? Or should humans not have progressed itself? I mean, how do we direct toward a solution from the situation that we are in now? Right now, I see a lot of enthusiasm amongst human beings for reimagining the entire thrust of human existence. We’ve got to get back to the drawing board and reinvent, reimagine what is the human potential and the human objective. We’ve got to go back to square one.
Bring that rocket of human progress back down to the launching pad and roll it back into the hangar and we need to go back to the basics, the fundamentals. Oh, okay. That’s quite radical.
And that opens a lot more doors than what normally we would have for spiritual outreach. This is a great time for that because the human hubris, especially prevalent in some parts of the world, has become so great. We can handle anything.
If there’s a problem, we can fix it. But human beings are seeing that it hasn’t helped us. In fact, it’s hurt us.
We are destroying our own environment. The zoonotic diseases, viruses that jump from animals to humans are obliterating us. The sea levels are rising.
Maybe there’s a problem with our civilization. And maybe we need a different kind of wisdom. Maybe those ancient Indian texts might know a thing or two.
Yes, Maharaj. Maharaj, when we talk about, just to continue this thought, that when we talk about ancient Indian wisdom, often people also want some kind of demonstration that it will work or it has worked. But what we see is that current India is itself still a mess in many ways.
And in Indian history, as is being studied or, say, maybe presented by Indologists and other historians, there is a glory in it. But even then, they talk there has been caste system and exploitation. I wrote a book on reincarnation.
And one of the critics in that reincarnation book, I talked about how the understanding of that we are not our physical selves that can end discrimination. So one of the reviewers for that book, he said that his critique was that, you know, all this is fine in theory, but India had the most discriminatory caste system. So does your philosophy actually translate into any real world benefit? So how do we present something as an alternative, not just in terms of theory, but also in terms of its workability? Am I going too far ahead in our discussion right now? But this is what I have encountered.
No, the body, its attachments and its false identifications will always be a problem. There will be persons and societies that fester in the contamination of bodyism. So India has had its problems, but also India has a vast treasure house of knowledge that points in the other direction.
So the problem is more that we need an increase in application of that knowledge. Casteism in its various guises is a problem throughout the world. Yes, that is true.
Well, I just beat up on India. Yes, that’s true. Now, racial tensions are burning America apart.
So that is also a problem. It’s there everywhere. Some kind of discrimination based on the body.
Everywhere there’s some kind of discrimination because you look a certain way or believe a certain religion. You are under us. You are the lower caste, no matter how you distinguish that caste.
Maybe it’s by your parents. Your parents are untouchable. You’re an untouchable.
Maybe it’s by your religion. You’ve got a minority religion in our nation, which has a majority religion. Or maybe it’s by wealth.
In other words, throughout the world, there’s always been this tendency to seize on certain external characteristics as indicating superior or inferior status. So rather than just focus on mistakes that have been made and are being made in India. Let’s see it as a global problem.
Okay. Now, where do we find a solution? The knowledge that will solve this global problem. That’s what India can offer.
That’s a great step forward. Okay, not everyone in India is acting on that knowledge, but at least the knowledge is there. Knowing what the problem is gives you half the distance to victory.
Seeing the enemy is half the way to victory. That’s true. So I don’t downplay the treasure house of knowledge, yoga wisdom associated with India, just because there are problems.
So how could we phrase or present the Indian wisdom in a way that addresses the current concerns? Our first message has always been that human beings are not their bodies. You see, there’s another quintet of false characteristics. Okay.
Of which human beings think these characteristics establish deep unity and deep similarity. I’ll explain more. There are five very transitory characteristics, but human beings latch on to them as if they’re permanent and have deep unifying value.
But there are two things within that category. Number one is class. Okay.
Number two, the country that you’re born in or identify with. Number three, your color. Number four, your culture.
And number five, your creed. These things change so easily. You go to another part of the world than where you were born and people see differently.
They don’t consider this quintet the same way that others do in your land of birth. So they’re very ephemeral, but we hold on to them as if they are permanent markers, permanent qualities. Beautiful.
They’re all external. By creed, you are referring to more like a doctrinal faith or something like that. Of course.
I believe this. What do you believe? You believe that? Unbelievable. What’s wrong with you? And why do you believe that? Well, tradition tells me to believe this.
My parents believe this, so I believe it. And you don’t believe it. I cut off your head.
Okay. This encompasses practically entire human society today. If you consider class, culture and color, then creed and country.
Almost all people. Yeah. Everything that people conceive of themselves as is exhausted in all this.
Yeah. It’s very comprehensive. And what’s worse is that they think that within each of those five categories, there is the basis of unity and similarity.
And this is mostly imaginary. This syndrome is mostly completely imaginary. Okay.
I look at someone who is from the same country as me, and then I hallucinate that we have a commonality. We have a sameness that’s substantial. It’s just a shadow.
How substantial is a shadow? Tell me. But they make such a big thing out of it. Each one of these five offers such bonding.
I remember on the airplane, someone next to me was watching a Bollywood movie, and they had their earphones turned up too loud. And so the movie came to a climatic point. This one army guy was going to save India from some attack done by that other country.
So he said with such ferocity, intensity, the love of the nation flows through my veins thicker than my blood. That was the climatic moment of the movie. So he’s imagining that nationality provides some kind of commonality, a deep bond that’s shared amongst such persons.
And that’s an hallucination. Everyone is so different with their different karmic loads and baggage and emotional, physical complexities. Maharaj, when you say this is imaginary, are you saying this in an ultimate sense? Because historically, say in times of wars or something, nations have come together.
And even now, also because of pandemic, suddenly people are discovering the importance of national borders. And in that sense, there is a sense of cohesion that is felt by people. So what you’re saying is that it is not substantial.
What does it mean? It’s insubstantial and mostly imaginary. They’re making a huge thing out of something very tiny, a shadow. They’re turning a shadow into substance.
Okay. Like if I said, all you Mumbai Wallace are all the same. Okay.
That’s true. Just like my mother, when I first took up my bhakti practice almost 50 years ago. She said, why do you want to associate with something connected to that starving land of India? All the Indians are starving.
Now, 50 years later, she says, at my office, there’s so many persons from India. They’re smart people. They take all the good jobs.
So there are these blanket assumptions that because someone is from a certain country, someone’s a certain color, someone has certain mannerisms that we call culture. Or a certain class or creed that there’s commonality that runs deep enough to stake your life on it and others lives on it. So each of these things can provide some sense of unity, but that will not be deep enough to actually bring harmony.
In some situations. Yeah. It will provide superficial unity.
Okay. Shadow. A shadow is something.
Yeah. Okay. Makes sense.
Let’s see if I can make a shadow. No, I can’t do it. It’s something, but it’s so ephemeral.
It’s not worth basing your life on. And this is why people get angry and frustrated. They’re basing their society on things that are so shadowy.
And they’re milking those shadows for all that they’re worth, which isn’t much at all. So the bhakti knowledge presents a real basis for commonality. The non-material self beyond the constant changes of the body and mind, physiology and psychology.
So when we talk about the non-material self, so that is what is our essence. And in that sense, in that sense, we are all common. So how would that say, I mean, that understanding is important.
How would we translate that into either social policy or individual activity or individual living? It’s in concept, the idea that all of us have a core that is similar. That is, that is unifying. But how would that translate into addressing, say, today’s problems? First of all, it deals with the crazy phenomenon known as nationalism.
It deals with perceived bodyism, such as. Ethnicism. It deals with class consciousness.
It deals with the so-called culture. These things are skin deep, basically, in terms of behavioral mannerisms and how others perceive. Yet human beings are destroying each other because of these false unifiers.
I like the way one Bhakti Acharya explains it. He says he recognizes these characteristics, this quintet, but he says they’re at best secondary and probably just tertiary. The primary commonality is being missed completely.
Therefore, there cannot be peace. So, all right, we’ll give credit where credit is due. Tertiary, secondary, but still that means you missed the boat.
Yes, Mahajan. What if some people say that we are all, we are all humanity. So what brings us together is our shared humanity or what brings us together is our shared residency on the planet.
So you would put that also in a creed or where would you put that? That’s a good start. That’s a good start. You see, any intelligent human being naturally wants to see a shared experience.
We want to feel bonds with others. Yeah. Nationalism is like that.
We are from the same country. You want to feel similarity with others, but we must take it deeper. Why? It’s a start.
All human beings. But then, why didn’t it further? All residents of this planet, not simply human beings. I don’t know how much a quadrillion is, do you? Yes.
We’ll have to ask some of our mathematically minded associates, but there are one quadrillion ants, it is said, on the earth. So if you want to know who runs the earth, it’s the ants. One quadrillion.
Yeah, one quadrillion. It is a thousand raised to the power of five, ten raised to the power of fifteen. There are quadrillion hands.
Inconceivable. Yeah. Hands or hearts? Ants.
Okay. A-N-T-E-S. Yes.
That’s stunning. So they’re actually the rulers of the planet. So it would be a good start.
A great start for human beings to establish connections with all human beings, regardless of class, color, country, creed or culture. But then what about the other residents of the planet? I was just speaking at an event at a place where you thankfully frequent, the Bhakti Lounge in Wellington. That’s right.
And I was telling the audience. It’s one of the most vibrant places of outreach, especially to thoughtful Western people. It’s my honor to come there and assist you in the glorious project you have started there, Maharaj.
Yeah. So I was talking about human hubris, how humans think they’re so great. Just because of their economic expansion, which has now gotten them into so much trouble, that intelligent people are thinking how to reinvent human aspirations.
So I was explaining about honeybees, also known as bumblebees. Did you know that such bees can count to four? Four? And furthermore, they can recognize individual human faces. Oh, okay.
So some brave scientists are pointing out, what was the evolutionary need of such an ability in bees to recognize human faces, individual human faces? There was no necessity. There is no necessity for that development in order for their survival. Hmm.
So what is. And not only that. What is the point of this example? I mean, are you saying that there’s something inconceivable? To show you that human beings, they’re not human beings aren’t as smart as they think they are.
Oh, okay. So on one side, they can only. Except when.
Except when their consciousness. Okay. Their intelligence is directed towards spiritual development.
Yes. So on one side, what’s that? No, you said on one side, they can count only till four, but they can recognize human beings. So they have such a special ability.
That’s the point. The faces. No, no, no.
They can pick you out. They know differences in faces. Just a little bee buzzing around in your garden.
Oh, okay. As you’re walking around Govardhan Echo Village. That wonderful place.
Yeah. Outside of Mumbai. As you’re walking, you can.
And you see some bees. You remember this. But.
What’s more. They also communicate symbolically. Now, when you consider intelligent animals, people generally think of whales, dolphins, and the great apes.
But they don’t communicate symbolically. An ape may just grab a branch and shake it, indicating he or she wants something. But what do honeybees do? They dance in the hive in a certain way to indicate how far the pollen is in distance, what direction the pollen is, and how nectarian is the pollen stash.
They vary their dance. Those scientists are astonished. They shake one way and indicate fly northwest.
They shake another way, fly southeast. And they shake another way. It’s this distance away.
And they shake still another way. It’s that distance away. And then another dance step means it’s really super pollen.
And yet another dance step means just pollen, but it’s not so fantastic. So you can look at bee society and colonies, and you’ll see organization that leaves the human species far behind. Simply, there is no self-realization and no bhakti yoga wisdom.
So you are saying that all the things that we humans have prided ourselves on, actually they are present in equally, if not better, sophisticated forms in other species also. Yes. In terms of economic organization, organizing labor, organizing society, nothing human beings do compares to what the ants do in their colonies, what the bees do in their hives.
Economists have analyzed ant colonies and beehives in terms of measuring economic productivity. And they found these organizations to be extremely efficient compared to the chaos of human society. But if we add the need for spiritual science and spiritual development, only then do human beings excel.
So if I may trace the flow of thought, what you’re saying is that the pandemic has started making people think to reimagine the human project or human potential. And the pandemic has also shown that the way we have directed our human potential to do economic progress, to do language, symbolic communication, technological development, not only does it not really help us deal with big problems, but it also, we are superseded in that by the animals. So what can we do that is really special, that is really significant? We need to explore that.
And if we start exploring that, then the spiritual culture or the spiritual wisdom of Indian texts offers us a pathway. Is that how you’re flowing? Yes. Okay.
Yes. Okay. We have neglected our prime advantage.
As a human species, we’ve neglected our prime treasure. We’ve lost the plot. And people are ready to hear that these days because they see their political leaders can’t save them.
Regardless of how many times they hear about the impacts of climate change, they can’t do a U-turn. They can’t change their course. Their nationalistic problems due to body identification get them in trouble again and again, now and in the future.
Just like since you mentioned the pandemic. Yeah. Is it that a vaccine is going to solve all the problems? No.
Political thinkers are pointing out that just wait for the next madness known as vaccine nationalism. Who gets the vaccine first and in what quantities? It’s going to be a big mess. Is it a certain class? Is it a certain nation? Who gets first access? You’ve got how many billion people in the world now? More than 8 billion.
Yes. How do you distinguish? Just like in wealthy countries, amongst the wealthy who are in those wealthy countries, right now, if they want to party, if they want to go on a cruise, if they want to participate in some kind of social enjoyment, they have what is called boutique medical services. With your wealth, you just immediately get a COVID test.
Results are back immediately. You’ve got your clearance to party. Whereas if you’re just an ordinary person off the street, you’ve got to wait.
First of all, you have to find out where they’re giving a COVID test, wait in line and wait for the results. But if you’ve got the money, you get everything you need right away. So how do you think this, if a vaccine is discovered and there are many hopeful projects, how do you think it’s going to be distributed? It’s not simply the devil is in the detail, the devil is in the distribution.
When you’ve got a basic human defect, that screws up everything. Whether the environment or vaccines or artificial intelligence, a basic human defect makes a mess of everything. That is selfishness or misidentification of the self with the body.
Because of misidentifying the body and mind as the self, you then overemphasize the material plane and material aspirations. You fanatically absorb yourself in that and such a concentration, such a focus blinds you. So you’re armed with so much pride, so much hubris, just like in the USA.
Some people are starting to recognize there’s such a thing as American hubris, American exceptionalism, that this is a special country. And therefore, somehow that we should be immune as Americans, we should be immune to the chaos that’s happening in the rest of the world. But we’re not.
Oh my God. What’s happening? Why is our nation being struck with such blows as if it’s a third world country? This is not meant to be. There’s something wrong with the cosmos.
Where is God? Maharaj, this is a very, you know, very insightful way of talking about or presenting the insubstantiality of various pursued solutions. And now, I mean, how do we say if we take the basis of the non-material self as our identity. Now, how would that lead to a change in the practical sense? How are we reimagining the national boundaries to dissolve? Or are we imagining that people will no longer, as soon as they start thinking that I am the soul, they will stop racial conflicts by that? Because if I take a skeptic’s worldview, we can see that even among people who are spiritual practitioners, often there are conflicts because of various reasons.
So, in that sense, in principle, this sounds good. But in practice, how are we going to translate this? Let’s take a famous verse from Bhagavad Gita. Krishna explains, well, in Sanskrit, When you come to that platform, when you make real progress to that platform of understanding your non-material existence, you’ll notice there’ll be a reduction in desiring material gratification and also moaning and groaning because you are not getting what you want and even losing what you already have.
So those are the first characteristics, which are so valuable. A reduction in yearning, which is so prominent in a consumer society. And then that’s coupled with a reduction in lamentation, moaning, I lost this, I lost that.
Furthermore, Krishna explains, Such a person established in their spiritual existence sees all living entities as equal. Not the body as equal, but equally as equal as the non-material self as the spiritual self. So that’s a foundation.
It’s not the whole building, it’s what’s at the bottom holding the building up. So even just that primary or foundational or beginning understanding will benefit human society so much practically. The consumer society is destroying this world.
No more is this a kind of doomsday talk or non-mainstream presentation. It’s far easier now for people to understand and accept that our version of society is destroying the planet. Yeah.
And I’ve heard this verse many times, but in this context, it’s a very, very relevant verse. And if you consider, say, it starts with something which is quite rational and universal. It is not asking that, okay, you have faith in a particular, particular historical figure as your savior or have faith in a particular, a particular ideology or whatever.
It just starts with one foundational truth, which can be rationally accepted, at least understood. And then there is a logical outgrowth of that. So in that sense, this has a greater universal scope than what is conventionally thought of as religion or even what is thought of as ideology.
This is much more universal. Yes. Yes.
And if governments would base their administration on such principles, you would actually start to see the dawning of peace. Because the more we identify with the illusions, that quintet that I explained, the more we become angry, envious, greedy. You see, you can’t, the Bhakti Yogateks explain, you can’t just take on these illusions about what the self is and expect that there’ll be tranquility.
That illusion has companions, has family members. And those family members are lust, anger, greed, madness, and envy. They’re all partners and they’re in business together.
So it’s not that, well, so what if I think I’m the body? So what if I think I’m this class, this caste, this country, this nationality, this color? This is my culture. This is my creed. So what? What are the consequences? The consequences are that you are sharing the house with some troublesome co-residents.
Yes. It all comes together in one package. Yeah.
It’s interesting when you said lust, anger, greed, then you added madness. So are you translating Moha illusion as madness? Are you just saying that lust? I started with illusion. I started with illusion.
Just like you’ve got, you’ve got national leaders boasting about how big their nuclear, their so-called nuclear button is. Yeah. My nuclear button is far bigger than yours.
My nuclear button is bigger than yours. I can annihilate your whole country. This is the effect of identifying with the body and then madness is a co-partner as well as envy.
Nations recognize this and they will redirect themselves. Now consider this situation. I was talking this with a friend who has some sympathies for Dharma.
Not necessarily spiritual, but he has, he’s an Indian friend. So he said that, okay, even if I accept I am my, I am a soul, I’m not the body. But if tomorrow some rioter from some other religion comes or tomorrow a neighboring country which is hostile attacks me.
You know, whether I consider myself as a soul or not, our body, I have to defend myself and I have to equip myself. So in that sense, our understanding, our asserting that we are souls. But we are still living in a materialistic world where we do still have to protect.
As devotees also, we have to take medicines, we have to take care of the finances of our temples. So are you saying that it’s that we may do these things, but we don’t obsess over these things. And the obsession over these things is what is causing the problem, not just doing these things.
You know Bhagavad Gita, you know Mahabharat. Arjuna was a military man and an administrator and a family man. Yet Krishna spoke the Gita to him.
Not to a Brahmana by caste. And Krishna told him to act according to Dharma and think of Krishna. Krishna didn’t say Arjuna, you stay in the back, I’ll drive the chariot and you sleep.
No, Krishna urged him to action based on Dharma. So there needs to be a class of persons who will protect and who are qualified to give protection. But that’s not everyone.
There needs to be a professional class of protectors who have the ability, the qualification. Because there are always going to be some dacoits, miscreants, cheaters, plunderers in the world. So we Bhakti Yogis accept that.
But that doesn’t lead to the obsession, as you say, in bodily misidentification. Okay. Which will blind you to real human progress.
Okay. So even though Arjuna understood that he was not the body or the soul, still when required, he had to fight a war and he fought it. But his conception of progress was not that I’ll expand the kingdom and I’ll gain more power.
His conception of progress was that, okay, I need some order in society, but the real purpose is to grow spiritually and to help people grow spiritually. Yes. Yes.
Now, of course, you know, as well as I do, that Arjuna was not fighting some kind of oil war. He wasn’t fighting over uranium and titanium in Afghanistan or something. Yeah.
His family was attacked. And it was his duty as a professional protector to root out the criminals and protect the innocent. But he was hesitating to do that because he had distant relatives on the other side of the battlefield.
So he was showing his soft heartedness. But Krishna wanted him to do his professional duty. He wasn’t a military conscript, you know, drafted into the army.
He had that ability. He had that qualification. That was his duty.
And Krishna was taking it to a higher level by saying, not only is this your occupational duty, but this is also what I, Krishna, want you to do. So that way the Gita is on two levels. Okay, so circumstantial and transcendental.
That he’s fighting a war, but he’s doing it for Krishna. Okay. That’s beautiful.
He’s linked. He’s a yogi. That’s why Krishna told him, arm yourself with yoga and fight.
Your main asset is your ultimate connection. Arm yourself with that and fight. So Maharaj, in today’s world, if we, if say more and more people become infused or directed by spiritual wisdom, then circumstantially things may not dramatically change.
But what drives people will change. So we may still have nations. We may still have trade and political systems, whatever they are.
But what will the greed or the selfishness that is driving people, that will decrease and then we will be able to find solutions. I’m just thinking and my question is that, okay, this is a theoretical concept that I’m not the body, I’m the soul. But say if today, if we meet, if you meet the head of state of New Zealand or say a devotee meets the head of state of India.
Oh, by the way, since you mentioned New Zealand, the head of state, the prime minister a few weeks ago received happily a Bhagavad Gita and said, I always wanted to read this. Oh, yeah. Actually, I saw that picture.
It came in the Indian media also. I saw that. Yeah.
Thank you. So if somebody is in a position of influencing society today and if they want to incorporate spiritual knowledge, how would they do things differently? Say, for example, somebody is in charge of the research to find a vaccine for the pandemic. Or somebody is formulating the policy for the Indian government about how India should progress in future.
Should we industrialize? Should we do this? Should we do that? So how would somebody in influence in today, they are in a position of influence in the society today. If they had this knowledge, how would they translate it practically? So imagine if the Indian prime minister, we had the contact with him and he said, OK, I want to apply Bhagavad Gita in today’s world in India. So what could they do in today’s situation right now? First of all, recognize that, number one, their duty, their sacred duty is to give protection to people’s property and health.
And number two, they should make sure there’s sufficient food for everyone. That’s part of protection. OK.
But also you could put it in a category of its own because this pandemic is going to reveal big problems in the world’s food supply. The UN is already talking about that. You see, there hasn’t been such a severe global disruption since World War II.
That’s what’s hit us right now. And the food supply is being affected because the movements of food commodities around the world are disrupted. So a chief executive has as his first duties to give protection to the people, that means their property, their health, and also protect them in that they have sufficient food.
And then he or she should be able to give definitive lessons in what is the goal of human life. He or she should be able to instill in the citizens the vision for what a human being is actually meant to achieve. The head of state should also be able to appreciate and encourage the citizens, inspire them.
And also, according to the Bhakti Yoga texts, the head of state should give gifts to the citizens. Where does he or she get the wherewithal to give gifts to the citizens? The citizens happily pay taxes. That’s a new one, isn’t it? Happily pay taxes because they’re so appreciative of the protection and care they’re getting.
So such a qualified chief executive has opulence that he distributes. This is all described in the graduate study to Bhagavad Gita known as Srimad Bhagavatam. What I like especially is what’s mentioned in chapter four of Bhagavad Gita.
The purpose of the saintly heads of state is to protect the people from lust. Why do we need protection from lust? Based on what the movies and the social media tells us, the more lust, the better. But the Bhakti Yoga texts tell us that a saintly head of state knows how to protect the people from being decimated, destroyed by uncontrolled lust.
These kinds of qualities and activities that I’ve mentioned are all about change on most practical level. The head of state does have the power to direct people toward a particular vision. And most often today they will draw on the nationalistic sentiment and maybe ask them to sacrifice for the country or something like that.
But if the head of state were sharing spiritual knowledge, then people would take it with significant level of seriousness. Yes, the head of state should say, look, whether you call yourself Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, whatever, are you the body, are you the mind or something different from the body and mind? Let’s focus on that. Otherwise, leaders distract their people for the purpose of exploitation.
I remember a statement by the former head of Venezuela, Chavez, he said, speaking in a mass rally, he told the people, look, we may not have electricity, we may not have food, but we have the fatherland. So what you said is tragic. The imaginary satisfaction is used to justify the deprivation of real needs.
That’s what is distraction. Exactly. Well put.
Well put. Thank you. Thank you.
So, yes, that’s what I just said. Distracting. So the leaders, yeah, I think in some of your classes, you also mentioned how in today’s world, people are provided so much entertainment that people get distracted from even real material issues or to speak of spiritual issues.
Mass weapons of distraction. Distraction. Yeah, it’s true.
Yes. One former prime minister told me this. He said, you know, there was a time when we politicians used to fear revolutions.
Not anymore. All you do is give the people unlimited sports, unlimited movies, television, social media, and they’re just totally absorbed. They don’t bother you.
They leave the politicians to do whatever we want. As long as we can provide those distractions. Yeah, that’s true.
And sometimes if they want, they can use the social media to also manipulate people. Like if you want to create or foment a revolution, they can use the social media to do that also. So basically they can control over people then.
Truthfulness is fading fast. You see, the problem with falsity, false facts, misinformation, is not so much that people are getting the wrong idea, the wrong information. That’s bad enough a problem, I agree.
But worse than that is, due to this flood of misinformation, people become disorientated and even lose interest in trying to discriminate between what is real and what is fantasy. That is the worst outcome. Than even getting a wrong information instead of the right information.
The worst thing is, who can tell? Who really knows? This is too much. I don’t care anymore. Let what happens, happens.
If you’re a dictator, if you’re an ill-motivated controller of society, that’s where you want people. So in that sense, relativism, whether it’s philosophical relativism or any kind of relativism, that actually breeds apathy. And then people can control more easily.
Yeah. That’s why the Nazi propaganda chief had his formula. He said, the bigger the lie, and the more often you say it, the more people will believe it.
Yeah. They’re disorientated. They’ve lost all interest in trying to analyze and discriminate.
Just whatever, whatever you say. Oh, the sky is polka dots. Sure, whatever.
Yes, Maharaj. Maharaj, this point about… Yeah. If you were an ill-motivated controller, that’s exactly what you want out of people.
Hmm. Yes, Maharaj. This point about social media and distraction.
One trend of thought that I have seen nowadays is that it is our human progress that has enabled us to survive during the pandemic. The idea is that because we have technology advance so much, so we have say digital technology and we are able to work from home. We are able to connect with people without physically going there.
So there is a trend of thought which says that we need more technological advancement by which we can deal with such problems. So it is, yes, nature is cruel and nature has given this pandemic to us, but it is our technology which has saved us from the worst of the pandemic. So there is this whole idea of transhumanism which says we want more and more progress and then we will transcend our human limitations.
How could we address that? Who is saying that? Just the people who have all the resources and conveniences, they can talk like that, but most of the world cannot talk like that. Let’s just take the USA, for example. We don’t mean to beat up on the USA, but it has so many statistics readily available.
Hmm. Economists have pointed out that just three persons in the USA own more wealth than more than 50% of the population combined. Three percent or three persons? That means three persons have more wealth than 160 million persons combined.
Okay. So you are saying that if we have technology… So smart persons are saying… Okay. Smart social theorists are saying, how can a society go on like this? It has never happened in human history.
There is always some severe social outbreak, some upheaval. Okay. So what you are talking about in terms of how the technology has prevented the worst blows from the pandemic, first of all, we haven’t yet seen the end of the pandemic.
Some say that we’re just in the first wave and that there’s another wave due. So let’s not talk so gloriously that we have already met that challenge and dealt with it. No, we’re still over our heads.
We still have a lot of opportunities in it. As far as working from home and all these kinds of conveniences, they’re luxuries. Most persons in the world don’t have access to such convenience.
So let’s be big hearted. Let’s be compassionate and at least look at the plight of all human beings and not just focus on the privileged life of a few. Everyone’s life should be honored.
Yes. So if we focus on sharing spiritual wisdom, then that is something which everybody can benefit from. So technology will maybe benefit some wealthy people, some elite people and that is fine but the important thing is if you want to benefit a cross section of society, spiritual, directing people towards spiritual progress will be far more effective and foundationally transformational.
Isn’t it? Yes, because spiritual knowledge will equip people with compassion, empathy, a reduction in their greed and envy and a desire to benefit all living entities. In the Bhakti Yoga wisdom text, the head of state is responsible not just for the human beings in the state but all creatures. They’re considered citizens, passport holders, all living entities.
Just that conception alone will make such an extraordinary difference. Okay. Yes.
So why should there be this mentality of I live and you die. I get the vaccine. As for you, tough luck.
So we’re not really in a sense rejecting the current ways of solving problems they may also play a part like say vaccine is a part of the solution but if there is spiritual wisdom then that solution will be which will be say administered more equitably it will not lead to further as you said vaccine nationalism so there could be practical solutions to practical problems but spiritual wisdom will also ensure that the practical solutions are more workable and more equitable. Is that how we are? You’re reminding me of something our preceptor Shila Prabhupada once quit. We are not against the advancement of material society even though such advancement is suicidal.
It’s double talk. So in other words the technological fixation will take care of itself. Okay.
Take care of itself means it will meet its own natural consequences or shall we say unnatural consequences because it’s unnatural but that’s something else. Our point is technology or not what is the best way to live? Okay. Oh, okay.
Vaccine or not whether you’re an anti-vaxxer or vaccine fanatic still what is the best way to live? Okay, so that in the quest for happiness human beings don’t destroy the world and themselves. Yeah. So in a sense there could be various kinds of conceptions that drive people in their particular lives areas.
So it’s not that so for example as you said some people might be for vaccine some people against vaccines. So bhakti or the bhakti spirituality transcends this. You could and it’s more about not how specifically you go about living in the world but what is the purpose you are living? Why is not so much about the house, but the why why we are living when that is transformed and the house will take care of itself.
Can you put it that way? Yes, as the consciousness becomes purified by having the right vision and the right goal the incidentals will start to become clarified. Yes. And when we say apply all this knowledge Now, maybe this is just one or two last questions.
I don’t want to take too much of your time but say we often see today in the world even among spiritual people there are conflicts say if we are trying to practice but even among us there are as devotees there are conflicts sometimes. So do we see this as a human fallibility? Is it an inadequacy in our spiritual practices? Because of which this happens or that means we say spiritual wisdom will solve the problems of society but even in a society of spiritually minded people many of the problems mirror the problems in mainstream society. So then how do we explain this? The Bhakti Yoga global effort is like an international hospital.
Hospitals are meant for sick people you have to give credit to those who recognize they’re sick and have taken steps to become cured. The reason why they’re in the hospital is because they recognize they have a disease. If they follow the instructions of the expert medical staff they’ll become cured.
So we have to have a progressive view of spiritual development there’s the ground floor, the entry level and then there’s further progress to be made. So yes any yogi bhakti yogi or otherwise according to his or her level of focus can be affected by all the turbulence in the world the strife, the discord the quarreling that’s in the world but as such yogis mature those external influences start to fade into the background. So we’re not utopian, we’re not pie in the sky we’re realists, we’re pragmatists.
So pragmatist means the unfolding of the solution will also be gradual or incremental. So we may not Yes, for many Yes, for many it will be gradual for some it could be very quick but the bhakti experience is open to all whether gradualists or the quick transformers. So then for those of us who have access to the spiritual knowledge now if we are to share it with others would you like to share some concluding words about how we can or what we could do or how we can go about sharing this wisdom in today’s pandemic you of course given a overall analysis but any concluding words Maharaj? Let us be sympathetic to those whose lives are severely disrupted threatened and even ended by this pandemic.
Let us not lose sight of the reality that this pandemic is not strictly speaking a punishment from nature. Indeed it is human derived. The pandemic is zoonotic due to human beings inappropriate association with animals by invading their habitat having live animal markets by factory farming these viruses have jumped over to human beings.
So strictly speaking we’re not dealing with nature punishing us we’re dealing with human beings punishing themselves and you can’t blame the threat of nuclear detonations on nature and you can’t blame climate change on nature. Humans have initiated these fiascos. So it’s time for human beings to embrace humility and seek to reimagine its purpose its place on the planet.
So I advocate that the Bhakti wisdom can bring so much to replace what has caused so much problem for human beings. It is possible to so to speak turn the ship around but we need to develop a group of wise persons throughout the world who can demonstrate genuine spiritual development genuine spiritual lifestyle. Otherwise people just say more religion please.
More holy persons more priests. Oh please. They need to be able to see the difference in terms of wisdom and lifestyle and then they’ll become inspired.
So I think what you’re doing is wonderful. You’re promulgating that kind of global intellectual societal transformation. I’m simply being a channel for the wisdom of great souls like you taking inspiration from you and sharing the wisdom that I have learned from you and our illustrious teachers.
So I just tried to summarize Maharaj what you spoke so that we can have just a couple of few minutes. It was very illuminating. We started by talking about how if you had to be compassionate the pandemic the modalities in which people look at the environmental issues that was the similar to what people were looking at spirituality distance dissonance denial designation and doomsday and but now the pandemic has made us not just think of how to do good things or how to feel good.
But what is life good for? It’s a much more fundamental question. And we have our people are open to allow this phrase reimagining human potential reimagining the human project. What is human life meant for because all the all the progress that we had done and we are proud of it is it is not only been disrupted but it has been shown to be important in dealing with this staving off this catastrophe.
So then from there. So if you are to reenvision the human project the Indian wisdom text providers the understanding that our self essential self is non-material and this can be the basis of lasting unity. Otherwise you talk about this five C’s which provide a sense of unity as class culture country then creed and one class country creed culture.
Yeah. Yes. So so these things they provide.
It’s superficial and it can be disrupted very easily. So the way to these may play a role in society but foundationally if people become more spiritual then it will change the way they what they pursue in life. You talk about the Brahma Bhuta verse that two things will happen if individually we become more spiritual that our craving and lamenting will decrease and we will see people more equally.
And if there are influential leaders of society if they can assimilate this message then that will they can share it with others and that can also they whatever material solutions are being worked out they will be distributed more equitably and material and eventually our when if somebody says skeptically that you face the same problem that you claim you will be solving and it’s like that this is outside in the hospital diseases the pandemic diseases in the hospital also but in the hospital those who follow they are being cured. So those are spiritual practitioners. It is our responsibility also to demonstrate spiritual advancement by the way we live and then we can share spiritual wisdom and empathically compassionately be a part of the solution.
So thank you very much Maharaj for your time and sharing your wisdom. It has been it’s there are so many different aspects of knowledge or information. We say we get it today from material sources for spiritual sources but to put it in a coherent framework by which we can say okay these are the these are the challenges and these are the parts of the spiritual wisdom that addresses those challenges.
This is like a jigsaw puzzle which you put together in these one and a half hours. It is it is with your help with your help. Thank you very much.
I’m happy to be a instrument for helping more and more devotees and more and more people to see how brilliantly the bhakti wisdom can address today’s issues and how brilliantly you’re presenting it. Thank you very much. Humble obeisances.
All right.