How to have loving exchanges 3 – Cultivating sensitivity

[Retreat at Sydney, Australia]

Video:

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna. So, broadly being sensitive, how can we make our communication sensitive? There could be many aspects to it, but broadly I will talk about these three ways in which we can communicate anything.
This can apply even to our outreach when we present Krishna consciousness and it can apply even to how we give some feedback or correction to others. So, broadly it is prescriptive, normative and descriptive. Prescriptive means like a doctor gives a prescription, you know, take this, do not take this.
So, in prescription, we are putting ourselves in a position of authority and there we are giving commands. Now, we may feel sometimes that in a particular interaction, in a particular relationship, we are in the position of authority. So, first let me just overview these three, then I will explain to you all these.
Prescriptive means that this is right, this is what you should do, this is what you should not do. Normative means it is not related with normals, but it is related with norm. Norm is the standard way of doing it.
This is right, this is wrong. So, when we are in prescriptive, it is directly telling that person you should not do this. In normative, this is the right thing, that is the wrong thing.
So, indirectly we are saying that you should not do this or you should do this. Whereas, in descriptive, what are we doing? We are saying that this is what I am doing and this is why I am doing it or this is what I would do and this is why I would do it. So, basically when we are being descriptive, what are we doing? Yesterday, there was a question that sometimes in trying to understand others, in trying to be sensitive, we try to acknowledge their frame of reference.
What about our own individuality? Should not we express ourselves? Yes, we express ourselves, but express ourselves in a descriptive way, not in a prescriptive way. From my frame of reference, this is how I see it and this is what I am doing. So, we are not denying our individuality, we are not suppressing our perspective, but we are not imposing our perspective on others.
In fact, in today’s postmodern world, we had pre-modern times, modern times and postmodern times. So, in the pre-modern times, it was more or less in the India or the West, scripture was considered to be the authority, whether it was the Vedas or the Bible or the Quran, whatever. That was the pre-modern times.
Modern times, scripture was largely replaced by science. If something is scientific, then we accept it. Otherwise, reject it.
Now, today the world is moving more and more towards what is called the postmodern times. Postmodern means, here people feel that there is no reliable authority at all. Even science, even scientists have their agendas.
Many scientists may be searching for truth at an individual level, but scientific institutions, scientific forums, they want power, they want funds, they want prestige. And there have been many things associated with science also, especially because scientific findings have been used for a lot of bad purposes, like weapons of mass destruction. So, earlier science was seen as a source of universal good.
At least, now it is used extensively. We can’t live without technology most of the time. But, it is not seen that science is a source of reliable knowledge all the time.
So, in postmodern times, people don’t accept any authority. You say, how can you live without authority? Yeah, we have to live, and it is not that we don’t accept any authority at all. But, people don’t like authority to be presented as an authority.
That means, you tell your experience, if it makes sense to me, and accept it. So, say for example, if we are having a get together in an office, and then everybody is taking meat, but we are taking vegetarian food. And somebody asks us, why don’t you take the food which we are having, or why do you take only vegetarian food? Now, the descriptive way would be to tell why we do what we do.
If somebody says, actually those who eat meat, they put carcasses into their body, and they make their body into a graveyard. You know, that is going to shock people, alienate people. We are not going to, even if some famous thinker has said that in the past, and we are simply quoting them.
It is not going to work. People are going to feel alienated by that. Or, if we say that, you know.
Now, what to speak of, I eat meat, I eat vegetarian food, you should also become vegetarian. Why do you kill animals to eat food? Now, what are we doing? You should also not eat meat. So, what are we doing over there? Which of these three? Prescriptive.
Now, who are you to tell me? In today’s world, see what has happened is, that most people, especially in the last 20-30 years, the world has changed more than the last 200-300 years, because of social media coming up. So, there is always the teenage generation, every new generation has a sense of rebelliousness. We don’t want to be told what we should do.
But, for some people, that teenage rebelliousness goes on throughout their life, almost. So, that rejection of authority becomes the driving motive for doing everything. That’s why, if anybody is told to do something, people don’t accept it.
And, this is one significant difference between, say, you could say, Eastern cultures, Indian, Chinese culture and Western culture. Western culture has become significantly horizontal. Indian culture is significantly vertical.
So, even in offices, I think, in the Western places, you never use, you don’t refer to your boss as sir. Just, you know, just refer to, call them by their name. Even your professors, you call by their name.
Now, I was surprised even, I was with some youth in America, they call their mother and father also by their names only, not even mom and dad. Just, they call them by their name. So, now, for an Indian, it would seem very odd.
How could you call like that? But, broadly, that is the way the culture has become. So, it is not necessarily we have to adopt the culture, but we have to necessarily, we have to understand the mindset behind the culture. So, the mindset is that people do not want anyone to throw their weight around on them.
You know, this is the right, this is authority and you have to do it. In fact, this can go to an extreme, where even in the medical profession, now, even doctors have stopped being prescriptive. One devotee, he had a fracture and he was telling me that he went to a doctor and the doctor told him that, you know, in this fracture, the X-ray shows this.
So, you could just wait for three months and see if the hand heals. You will have to rest. If you do the surgery, this can happen.
You can do this kind of surgery or you can do this kind of surgery or you can do this kind of therapy or you can just wait and watch. If you do this, this can be the, this may happen. Now, what do you want to do? Now, we say, okay, he has to take a decision, but this is, generally, if you go to a doctor, the doctor can give us some options, but the doctor, if the doctor expects the patient to take the ultimate decision with respect to surgery, certainly, doctor has to get consent, but there are times when the doctor has to tell.
Now, do this, do not do this. This is what he says. So, if the doctor becomes very deferential to the patient’s will, then how will, how will any kind of treatment be given? Say, as parents, sometimes the child does not want to eat healthy food.
The parents have to tell, eat healthy food. So, it is required, but the point is that overall, today’s ethos is such that people do not want to, people do not like, in general, the authoritative way of speaking. So, being sensitive means that there is the, there is the message that we are speaking and there is the manner in which we are speaking.
So, we are not talking about changing the message. We are talking simply about changing the manner in which we speak. So, the way we speak, if it is, if it is either normative or prescriptive, it puts off people and it is interesting that even in the animal kingdom, see sometimes we say in the animal kingdom, the might is right.
Now, whichever is the strongest animal that wins, but even in the animal kingdom, they have found that, say, if there is a group of chimpanzees or a group of bears, naturally the chimpanzee which is the biggest will become the leader of the group. But even among that group, the, if that chimpanzee is domineering, just my way is the only way, then sooner or later, two, three other chimpanzees come together and they pull down the chimpanzee, they attack and destroy the chimpanzee. So, even in the animal kingdom, it is found that certainly might is important, but whoever becomes a leader of a pack does not stay long if they resort only to might.
It is, if just, if might is there, then sooner or later they are overthrown. But even in the animal kingdom, so there is an experiment done with respect to some mice or rather rats, like there is a small rat and a big rat, even rats play. They may just play and then actually it is amazing that even they, rats sometimes, like they play and they wrestle.
Now, wrestle means, you know, one rat tries to push the other rat down, the other rat tries to push the first rat down. Now, if there are two rats and one is bigger than the other, so then after some time, say, naturally the two are playing, the bigger rat will pin down the other rat. So, once, twice, thrice it happens and if each time the bigger rat wins and after that the smaller rat stops playing.
So, smaller rat stops playing after that and the bigger rat does not want to play with. So, when they did this experiment, they found that every once in a while, every after five, six times, the bigger rat deliberately allows the smaller rat to win, the bigger rat allows the smaller rat to win. And then when it is clear that the bigger rat is, the bigger rat is, bigger rat is the winner, so the bigger rat is once, twice, thrice, four times, then within those experiments, it is quite, it is interesting that actually the smaller rat has to invite the bigger rat to play, because play is voluntary.
If the smaller rat does not want to play, then the bigger rat has no one to play. So, the bigger, if the bigger rat simply uses force and wins each time, the smaller rat thinks there is no fun over here, I cannot win any time. And then the smaller rat refuses to play.
So, the bigger rat in its own way recognises that I cannot simply rely on might. So, like we also, when our children are playing, we may tell them that it is not winning only that matters, it is how you play also that matters. You should play in a sportsmanly, play in a nice way, do not yell at others, if you start losing, do not get angry, do not yell, do not become violent.
So, now we may say, children may say, what? Winning is what matters. But the point is that life is not just, it is not just one play that you have, one game you have to play and win. For children, they want to be invited to play again and again.
If a child, that becomes very disagreeable, domineering and wins. But after that, other children do not like that child only. Say, we do not want to play with you.
Then that child is left alone. So, for the child, being able to play regularly is more important than winning immediately. Naturally, everybody wants to win.
But if some players, some children start playing so aggressively that nobody wants to play with them, then that is a bigger loss for them. So, just like in the Australian cricket team, they were known infamous for sledging and eventually they crossed a line and two of the top players, they were banned from cricket for some time. So, you want to be aggressive, but do not be so aggressive that you cross a line where people start feeling that you are disagreeable.
Now, same principle applies to relationships. See, when we, I am going to, next point is going to be intimacy. But even when there is a formal relationship, see some relationships we form as a, I mean a profession, we are colleagues.
Some relationships we have, we come together as devotees. Some relationships are like blood relationships, where we are born with those relationships or we have formed those relationships through marriage or whatever else, or we have children or whatever. But now, some relationships may be circumstantially forced.
We have to work with some people. Some relationships may be there because we are relatives. But ultimately, every relationship is voluntary.
In the sense that, not that the relationship itself can be given up, but how close the other person comes in that relationship. That nobody can force. Nobody can force.
You know, if a child is upset and the parents say, what happened? Now, the parents may ask, but the child has to voluntarily open up. The child does not open up. The parents cannot force open the mouth of the child and speak.
The child is upset about something, the child has to open up. And what applies to the speaking applies even more to the heart. So, relationships, there is, there may be an obligatory aspect to them, but there is also a voluntary aspect to them.
We may work together on an obligatory basis, but whether we share with each other, that is voluntary. And unless there is that feeling that this person is not going to dominate me. So, for that voluntary opening of the heart, the manner in which we conduct ourselves is important.
Just like those rats when they play, it is voluntary. So, relationships, there is an obligatory aspect where we may have to work together, but there is a voluntary aspect that how much people open to each other. There was an American comedian, Woody Allen, he said that, you know, my wife and I, we stay in different rooms, we drive different cars, we enter and leave the house through different doors, we eat at different times, we are doing everything possible to keep our marriage together.
So, now what is there to be together? If there is no sharing at all, that means it is an obligatory thing is there, but voluntary there is nothing there. It is actually keeping a complete distance from each other. So, there is a voluntary aspect and intimacy in terms of emotional intimacy or spiritual intimacy, it cannot be forced.
If two people have to come close to each other in any relationship, it has to be voluntary. And in general, the descriptive way helps even if the other person accepts what we say or does not accept what we say, the descriptive way helps the other person to understand why we are doing what we are doing or why we are the way we are, why we think the way we think. And when we speak in a prescriptive way, it is just like we are the authority and we are telling the other person what we are doing, what that person should do rather.
So, one way of being sensitive is that everybody has their own free will. Everybody has their autonomy and we respect their autonomy by not being prescriptive. We respect their autonomy by not being prescriptive.
In fact, one of my friends was writing a book on the Bhagavad Gita and he said that he is thinking of writing a book called the Ten Commandments of the Bhagavad Gita. Like there are Bible Ten Commandments. So, I told him, please don’t write a book like this.
The Bhagavad Gita’s mood is not of giving commandments. The Bhagavad Gita’s mood is more of choices and consequences. The end of the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna is telling, विम्रिष्षयित दशेषेन यथेचि सथा कुरूँ In 18.63 he says, now deliberate and do as you desire.
So, of course, there are certain statements which are instructive, no doubt. But the overall mood of the Bhagavad Gita, nowhere does Krishna say, I am God and you have to obey me. If you don’t obey me, I’ll send you to hell.
Even when Krishna talks about hell, it is not about because you are disobeying me, you will go to hell. Krishna is talking about because somebody has developed demoniac qualities, because of those demonic qualities, they do demonic actions and that’s why they go to hell. So, it is more of a demoniac disposition rather than simply disobedience.
So, Krishna is not in that mood of giving commandments. So, the Bhagavad Gita describes a God who respects human independence. You have free will.
He respects human independence and appeals to human intelligence. Now, deliberate, विम्रिष्षयित दशेषेन यथेचि सथा कुरूँ Deliberate and do as you desire. So, being sensitive to people’s free will means that we communicate with them largely in a descriptive way.
So, this was the first point about sensitivity. Any reflections or any questions about this? Yes, sir. The right example which you gave, they relate to the gambling industry.
Which industry? Gambling industry. Okay. That’s how they do.
They make you win initially, not many times. So, actually you just keep coming back to gamble more. And so, they advertise everything and then at the end of the advertising, they say gamble responsibly.
They are the big rats. They won’t do it. They won’t keep doing it all the time.
They are the small rat and they make you feel like you are winning sometimes. And that makes you keep coming back to the gambling and keep losing also. That’s the way they do it.
Yeah, okay. Yes, that’s true. They say this principle can be abused also, like gambling industry may abuse it.
Like even drug industry, the drug peddlers may give some free drug samples initially. But it’s not always like that. Like even a parent when they are playing with a child.
A parent, if a father is wrestling with a child. Now, the child may just gentle fist the child, the father may fall down. Now, the child says, oh, I felt you down, I felt you down.
Now, I bet you. A child feels happy. Now, what is that? The idea is that the parent wants to have just a sweet interaction and gradually the child grows up by that.
So, this principle is universal. It can be used for good purposes as well as bad purposes. Thank you.
Example. Anybody else? Yeah. Maybe you could keep one mic on this side, so in case anybody wants to speak.
Can you move it faster then? Yes. Yeah. When I came to Australia, I found that most people here, as I said, they are physically.
Then, when you are in India, you are always physically. You have to do this, you have to do this. You don’t get it.
And we also don’t get it. And that’s true. But what I found is, for each part, they come here and they come to the state of physical mentality.
They are not like that. They are not showing their natural ability. They think, oh, this is enough.
So, let’s say, our kids are brought up in the same way. We need to become good. We need to do good things.
When they come here, they say, oh, have you done this? Oh, this is great. They say, oh, this is great, this is great. Then what happens is, when they come home, we say, you have to take a good one.
They think, oh, these people are very restrictive. Teacher doesn’t say anything. They appreciate it.
We don’t appreciate it. So, it’s kind of mismanagement. Okay.
We have to be hobby people. Okay, yeah. It’s a good question.
So, because today, the culture here is not being prescriptive. So, even if the children do okay in the school, the teachers appreciate very much. But if you tell them that you have to do better, they feel that we are too demanding, we are too prescriptive.
Yeah, it is a challenging factor. There is this phenomenon in America called ABCD. It’s there in Australia also.
ABCD is actually… It’s Australian. Yeah, it’s Australian. American born confused deshis.
So, the generation who came to America and settled, or they came to Australia and settled, you could apply. Then the second generation is born over here. They, by their skin, their skin colour is brown.
So, they can’t entirely be Americans or Australians. But they are not Indians also. They don’t think like Indians.
So, it’s a confusion. And how to deal with it is, it’s a challenge. But broadly speaking, in each person, we have to see what helps them to move forward.
Sometimes a person is lethargic. Then they need a little bit of pushing. Sometimes the person is feeling burdened.
Then at that time, they just need to be accepted and appreciated. So, it’s good if that… Everybody needs a little bit of pressure to perform. But sometimes the pressure can become so much that they collapse.
So, some pressure has to come from parents, no doubt. And in general, because India is so competitive, there is so much population over there, the competition is brutal. So, everybody grows up with that ethos of working extremely hard.
And as compared to that, competition is there here also. But it’s not that bad as it is in India, especially in the student community. So, people, they may not feel wanting to perform so much.
But there is some amount of pressure that can come laterally also, from the peer pressure. But what happens, what peer pressure comes is more to look good, to appear smart, rather than actually to work hard and do study and perform. So, that pressure is more with respect… That external is there in India also.
But it’s not so much there. Here it’s more external. So, it’s a… With respect to this descriptive thing, I was going to talk this in intimacy in the next session.
But I’ll explain this briefly. That broadly, we can… One human being can influence another human being only in three ways. What are those three ways? I call them as enlightenment, engagement, and encouragement.
So, that means we can… Enlightenment means rather than telling you do this or don’t do this, we help them see the consequences of the actions. Rather than saying you have to get more marks, with this mark, you can get admission here. With this admission, this is what you can do.
With this mark, you can get admission here. This is what you will be able to do. So, show what we are able to see, we need to be able to help them see that.
So, that if we can do, then they will themselves take responsibility more for the choices. So, enlightenment means show them the choices before them and the consequences of those choices. Instead of just telling them make this choice, don’t make this choice, just show them the consequences.
So, it’s basically like help them if somebody wants to take a particular… going to a particular destination. Tell them if this way will take you here, this way will take you here. Then engagement means provide them some means to go along that way.
If, say, they are in a social group where nobody is studying very well. So, we all evaluate ourselves based on our peers to some extent. That is the innate comparing mentality we have.
Say, if we wake up in the morning and it is 4 o’clock, I should wake up. And we see everybody else sleeping. Why should I wake up? Let me also sleep.
We wake up at 4 o’clock and see everybody has woken up. Oh, I should also wake up. So, normally we naturally mould our actions according to our circle around us.
So, if instead of just telling them to do something, if we can provide them some access to some studio circle, maybe some tuitions, maybe some group of students who are… maybe they enter into some group where others are also studying or if they provide them some facility for studying. So, engagement means if you want to go along this way, how can you go along that way? That we provide. And third is encouragement.
Encouragement means that each person… Sometimes when people don’t do a particular thing, sometimes they just put on a facade that I don’t care. But it may not be like that. It may be that I am not sure whether I can do this.
And instead of trying it and failing and falling flat on my face, better I will not try it only. I will act as if I don’t care. So, often encouragement is what is very much needed.
So, encouragement can come in different ways. And I will talk about appreciation in the last part of our session. But if we can offer encouragement in some way, that means that whatever they do, we appreciate it.
Even if it is a small thing. And then we encourage them to do more, not in a demanding way, but in an inspiring way. So, how to do that, I will talk in the last session.
Any other comments? Okay, yes. Questioner 3 I was just reflecting when you were talking about the ultimate behaviour, when you look out this point of view, people may not immediately see our scriptures, our philosophy, they may not immediately see commandments. I think it is very important what people immediately see, how sensitive we are in how we speak, and how we behave in our lives, and how much pleasure we have in our behaviour.
When they see the pleasure and the healing that we are, I think we are going to speak much louder than the philosophy, and much louder than the scriptures, and much louder than the commandments. So, I think what people see is just about the benediction aspects, and the praying, and Buddhist activity. Ultimately, it translates, much louder than even what the scriptures say.
Yeah, definitely. Even when you see how much fun we are having, how great success we are having, that is true. Yes, we need to present.
People see our actions much more than our words, or even our philosophy. So, if people see that, we are nice, courteous, cheerful, and committed in our own way to what we are doing, but people do not see our commitment so much. How we are courteous, how we are cheerful, if they see all that, then that is what attracts them.
Prabhupada said, our followers are known as perfect gentlemen and ladies. That is true. Thank you.
Anything else? Yes. It is not over yet. The session is not over yet.
Yeah. Yes, that is true. And the right message told in the wrong way, people do not accept it.
So, there are times, of course, when prescriptive is required, but it is only when that person has accepted the authority. Still the person accepts the authority, if before that only we give the prescriptive, then people just see us as domineering. Thank you.
Yes. Thank you. Yes.
Because if you give the reason, this is why I don’t do it, then they can think, okay, this is the reason why I don’t do it. I would ask my mom, why this, why that, and she would say, I never ask my parents, why I just do it, because I am just doing it. And that is, I think that is really pretty wrong, because you are not empowered enough to know what the guidance is going to be, and so you go to some kind of these events, but then eventually you may not do that.
Whereas if you know why, and if you give the awareness, that you have to do it, you do it for yourself, and this is why you can do it, that will last much longer. Yes, that is true. And the kids, when kids ask why, see, knowing why, gives them a reason for doing it.
It is no guarantee that just after knowing why, they will do it. But not knowing why, becomes a very ready-made excuse for not doing it. If you don’t give them a reason, then they say, okay, I don’t want to do it.
It just goes out of their orbit of consideration also. So reasons are required. But in general, what happens? Every tradition, see, we, there are different levels of learning.
See, it’s, suppose, say, all of us, we learn Hindi, if you know Hindi or English. Now we will be able to speak in English, but if we have to teach English to someone, how do you form the sentence? Why this over here instead of this? Why singular here? Why plural here? Now we may not be able to explain that so well. So basically there is, they call it as enacted knowledge and articulated knowledge.
Enacted knowledge is the way we act. And articulated knowledge is the way we express. So, or we could call it embodied knowledge.
Embodied means what we act. So, for all of us, our embodied knowledge is much bigger than our articulated knowledge. So what we know and we act, that embodied, practically every field, embodied knowledge is bigger than the articulated knowledge.
Embodied knowledge is also a form of knowledge. Like if, again, 3-4 year old kids are playing, they may be playing a particular game and they may be following the rules of the game also. But if you ask them, okay, what are the rules of this game? They might not be able to tell very clearly.
They know, okay, we should not do like this, we should do like this, but they can’t tell it. So same way what happens? In general, in any tradition, there are rituals and there are reasons for the rituals. So the rituals are a part of the embodied knowledge.
The reasons are the part of the articulated knowledge. And in general, the rituals, being a part of the embodied knowledge, are remembered longer than the reasons. So if you consider, broad culture is there.
There are Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudras. Everybody would follow some religion in some way. And so the rituals would become a part of their embodied knowledge.
And that would be known to everyone. But the articulated knowledge, the reasons, are generally known only to the Brahmanas. So that’s why sometimes the parent may be following something and they may be benefited by it also, but they may not be able to tell.
And that’s why some forum where the kids can ask questions from somebody for whom those rituals are not just a part of the embodied knowledge, but also the articulated knowledge. And they can answer. Sometimes we know the answer to a question, but when we tell it, it doesn’t come out as convincing.
We ask some devotee who is an expert speaker, expert teacher, and they answer, I know all these points, but it didn’t come together that way. So what happens is that we need to, for us to become effective outreachers I’m creating this word now. The word preacher sounds very judgemental.
So outreacher. So for us to do outreach effectively, more and more knowledge we have to bring it from the embodied knowledge to the articulated knowledge. So when we do that, then it becomes more effective.
Yes, we’ll come to that. I have a question. I was just reminded of the verse from Bhagavad Gita where Krishna says, Anudvegakaram Vakyam.
So whatever we speak, even though it is true, whatever we say has to be true, we feel beneficial and non-agitating. Non-agitating, yes. Anudvegakaram Vakyam.
If it is agitating, then what happens? See, most people don’t come to spiritual gatherings for enlightenment. They come for peace of mind. They come for peace.
I want to feel peaceful. Yesterday I talked about three levels. Spirituality, the level of reality, the state of mind and the process.
So most people come for that peace of mind. They want to feel good. So they come for peace of mind and we give them a piece of our mind.
Then there is a mismatch. It doesn’t work that way. Yes, you can send one mic there.
There is a mic behind you. One mic can go to Sri Krishna. It’s just a comment.
You were asking about how it’s questioning how there is a balance and how our balance has we haven’t given the proper answer. We have just ignored the critical questions. Why is this in our life? One of the things that we already did because Ramana had not passed the knowledge the correct knowledge to the new generation.
And the second thing is even though, suppose I know what is the law of Krishna consciousness, what is the reason, because I learned a lot of things, the reasons actually, by those who are so rich, by talking to Krishna. Yes, definitely. I was Krishna consciousness, but not after, because I was doing whatever Ramana taught me.
He was instructing me or guiding me. But the second part of it is also supposing, now I am experiencing it in my own way. If I ask you a question, what would be the reality of the you know, I can tell over and over.
But suppose, because sometimes the kids are inquisitive. If one question, they will take the second question. If the second question, they will take the third question.
So the third question answer, you won’t be able to do it because it will be put back in their head. Understanding that, because kids won’t be able to understand. They might take the wrong answer.
So, this is the second part of it. And this might be great. But can we go over it? You know, this is the brief, the non-brief, that’s why we do this.
Because sometimes, we don’t know what to do. It’s unpredictable. Kids ask a lot of questions.
Most people, it’s very complicated. But, yeah, this is why most people, and also parents, we cannot disclose the details about the issue, you know. So, I, the same thing applies when we are adults.
Because sometimes, the issue of just, you know, I don’t, it’s not as expressed to a lot of people. Because, you know, at first, we didn’t know what issues, which one, what this is, and what that is, what that is, you know. But now, you know, we are, we have, we started realising more into this, to this.
Yes. Yes, that’s true. See, education, what happened? Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare, Hare.
Let’s come back, yeah. So, education means to speak according to the level. So, every educational system that is there, say, like, we have to give the standard example, three minus five, you know, it’s not, it’s not possible.
But later on, three minus five is minus two. So, similarly, some reasons, they may not be able to understand at that level. But then, you have to find out something which can at least pacify them at that point.
And there are times when there can be, if we have parents meeting together and discussing, how would you answer this question? We have, we observe preachers answering questions. Because, the same question you may ask, to define and different preachers may answer in different ways. Sometimes, this is a good way of answering this.
That way, we can find out what answer works at that level. Certainly, answers have to be given according to the level. Same for new people also, will answer a different place.
What devotees may answer in different ways. That’s just a part of any system of education. That, there’s a whole large body of knowledge.
We can’t unload all of that knowledge on people. So, we have to give them what is appropriate at that level. But, appropriate means, it should also, at a basic level, satisfy them.
Yes. So, I’m just going to do this in a few aspects of this. there are some more different answers which we have been taught.
Because, we come from a culture where, we’ve always been treated in a restrictive way and that’s how we are treated. Yeah. We also do it.
So, our kids also, like, we also do it. But, as I learned from this seminar, so, how we should be applying this, going ahead, in terms of how we can take this message. Also, considering that there will be who going to be interested this kind So, I’m ask you a questions.
Okay. If we consider, we came from a descriptive background and we also tried to share a descriptive way. But, what should we doing today in today’s society and what was it in the system also.
Let’s take this first about if you see, the Mahabharata has 110,000 verses and Vyasadeva doesn’t spare even one-fourth of a verse to name who is the guru of the Pandavas. Who was the guru? Drona was their martial teacher, Dhaumya was their priest. Who was their guru? See, there is no mention actually in the Mahabharata.
The point I am making is not that they didn’t have a guru, they were guided by Narada Muni, by Vyasadeva himself, by Markandeya, by many rishis. In general, the traditional culture was that not so much like subservience to one guru as reverence for a guru varga for the Brahminical class. So, the Pandavas would learn from many many teachers and Vyasadeva, that is how it is in the Ramayana also.
So, our movement started in what you could say a very historically unusual or anomalous way. Because Prabhupada went from India to America and he was speaking to people who were not who had no inkling of spiritual culture. Recently, we were talking with one devotee and that devotee was telling me, this is a senior devotee now.
He said, the first time I came to a temple and when this whole singing got over and then the conch blew, I was wondering, when you blow the the floor. So, there is no idea what was going on. So, for that particular setting, Prabhupada was their only teacher.
So, in many ways, Prabhupada laid a lot of emphasis on the position of the spiritual master. And, that is important. Now, the spiritual master is important, no doubt.
At the same time, if you look at Prabhupada’s own life, Prabhupada heard from Bhakti Sanskrit Thakur a few times, 7-8 times he interacted with him. Other times, he was in spiritual master giving him instructions. And, so the point which I am making here is, traditionally also, it was, you could say, it was definitely the vertical aspect was more, but it was not like this one authority to whom you outsource all the responsibility for decision making.
You just tell me what to do and I will do it. It was not like that. It was, say, you see when Yudhishthira Maharaj, when he felt that I, I am responsible for this bloodshed and I want to renounce the world.
Many elders, Vyasadev, Narad Muni, they all told him no. But none of them said, I am your guru and you have to obey me. That was not the mood over there.
They all tried to make him see reason. And even Krishna did not resort to his authority. I am God, you have to obey me.
Ultimately, it is Bhishmadev who spoke and that was what persuaded Yudhishthira. So the idea, that means in principle, there is submission, which has to be there. But in practise, it’s more of persuasion and negotiation.
It’s persuasion. Yudhishthira Maharaj had to be persuaded to do a particular thing. Not that here, he had to be dominated, just do it.
And we see negotiation and Dhruva Maharaj was told by Narada Muni. Dhruva Maharaj felt insulted and went to the forest. Narada Muni told him, you are a child.
Children don’t take insults so seriously. And if you think you are not a child, say, what you are saying is a true instruction, but it doesn’t apply for me. I am too badly hurt.
So please don’t tell me to see honour and dishonour equally. Please tell me how I can rectify my dishonour by getting a post that is more honourable than that of my father. And Narada Muni did not condemn him for his disobedience.
Narada Muni guided him accordingly. He appreciated his determination and guided him accordingly. So in general, the principle of obedience to higher authority is always there.
But in practise, the authority doesn’t throw their weight around and force people to do things. It is more the authority persuades. And sometimes the subordinates may also negotiate.
I don’t think I can do this. And then they arrive at a mutually understandable conclusion. Because ultimately, it is for the individual to apply it.
And if the individual is not convinced, the individual is not motivated, force them, you cannot do it for very long. You cannot do it wholeheartedly, it will not be done. So even traditionally, the word of the brahmanas was taken seriously.
And certainly, nobody wanted to displease brahmanas. Being cursed by a brahmana was something which is a matter of great fear. But at the same time, it is not that even the brahmanas would go around bossing people and forcing them to do what they wanted.
Even if it is good for them, it is more of persuasion. So I think it’s broadly, now also we see, the movement has become so big and many of the spiritual masters have many many disciples. So we are now in some ways moving towards the traditional way of things.
That we learn from many many teachers. Of course, our spiritual masters are foremost teachers and if our spiritual master gives a specific instruction, then we definitely should follow that. But generally, spiritual masters may not give direct specific instructions.
So we have to become responsible human beings and we have to take responsibility for our spiritual advancement. So the locus of responsibility always lies with the individual. It is not with the institution.
It is not that by affiliating with the school we are going to get spiritually advanced. Yes, it is important to be affiliated with the institution, but it is we who have to practise and by that we advance. So in general, I have seen that even in the tradition, the normative way was not that much.
So the parents might instruct, but even Chanakya Pandit also says, up to a particular power point, what is that? So he says up to the age of five, just pamper the child, just shower love on the child. For the next ten years, discipline the child and treat the child like a friend, like an equal. So, I think there is a time, there is an overall time when even the spiritual master may not give direct instructions.
Spiritual master may also do this. Now the disciple may take it as an instruction, but sometimes spiritual masters may tell also, I have seen my spiritual master and other spiritual masters also when I talk later, don’t take this as an instruction, just see if this works for you. So, I think there has to be a respect for people’s individuality.
That respect doesn’t mean that we are blind and don’t give them any guidance. If they are going on a wrong track, we let them go, but it’s just that we don’t force them. actually this brings us to the next point.
Can you just go ahead? Please go has diabetes and they are eating sweets, if that sweets is harmful for them, if they want to eat sweets, how can I tell them not to take sweets, that will be sentimental. But if we simply come off and dominate them, they will get alienated. We have to be sensitive.
Don’t tell them in front of everyone don’t take sweets. They also have their sense of self respect or whatever. So be sensible is important and we can’t be sentimental.
Sensitivity means that we consider people’s feelings. It is not that we consider only their feelings. We have to consider the facts also.
But we don’t have to neglect their feelings and we don’t have to neglect their facts. So that balance is actually to some extent an art. Say for example, if somebody is following some other spiritual teacher and they believe that spiritual teacher is God.
So if they ask us in a public class, what do you think about so and so? Now, some devotees for their preaching means what? They just heard some script and they download it. So and so is a fool. So and so is a rascal.
Now, those people don’t even know where we are coming from. So, what we do, if we, how can you, I respect this teacher so much and you call him like this, who do you think you are to call him like that? They can get completely alienated by that. So, if in public forum they can because of the philosophy.
This philosophy is only one part of it. So, therefore, we can’t be sentimental and say that that person is God. Yes, we also worship his God, not like that.
But we don’t have to be completely insensitive and criticise them. So, we can contextualise as far as somebody says my spiritual teacher is God, then we may have to say actually who is God is told in Shastra. And we have to say whether there is explicit reference for this.
There is no reference then we cannot accept something like that. So, we can be polite about it. So, we need to be, we can’t be sensible only nor can we be sentimental only.
We be sensitive as a balance between them. So, now this is a principle which is simple. You know, say, if you have a three or four year old child and a child has a room and the room is all dirty, messed up, you know, toys are hurled over here, the socks are here, the shoes are there, the books are here and you come to that room you tell the child, clean the room and then you go away and you expect after half an hour the room should be clean.
And you come back, now for the child at the age of three, they may not even understand what a clean room means. So, you may have to, now, if you want, for the child, see, if you consider actually what cleaning a room means, you know, it’s a clean room is actually an abstract concept, it’s an abstract concept, for us it is very clear, but for the child it may not be very clear. So, a clean room might mean many very different concrete actions.
One might mean that, okay, you know, this toy should go here, this sock should go here, these clothes have to go into this bag, they have to go to this closet. So, there are so many different actions which fall in the category of a clean room. Now, for us, we know it very clearly, but they may not know it at all.
So, then, if you have to tell a child, do you see that teddy bear, oh yes, can you pick it up, oh yeah, and then you pick it up, can you go and put it in that rack, a child knows what is the rack, okay, go and put it in the rack, and they look at you, and you smile at them, and the child feels good, and then you feel good, and okay, now can you take up these socks, can you put this there, and then you tell like this gradually through the specific guidelines, then the child starts understanding what a clean room means. So, clean room is very, very clear in our mind, but for the child it is not very clear. So, similarly, with respect to child and parent, this is very easy to understand, but we often have certain abstract conceptions, say for example, if somebody says that, if somebody tells us, you are, you are very insensitive, we are talking about sensitivity only, but what do you mean by insensitive? See, okay, at this point, I had told you to do this, but you did not do it and you did not even mention why you did not do it, or at this point, this was, this is what happened and you did not even acknowledge me, you did not even appreciate me, whatever.
So, when this is, sensitivity means that instead of just telling people, you are not doing, you are like this or you are like this, now give specific actions, now this is what, you know, I expect it should be done, but it was not done. So, if we tell somebody, you are irresponsible, now irresponsible is a very big category, now what there is person A and person B, what person A puts in the category of irresponsibility and what person B puts in the category of irresponsibility might be very different. So, somebody might say, irresponsibility means that, okay, I have to do this, this, this and I am doing it, how can you call me irresponsible, but for somebody else irresponsibility means, you are not doing this, this, this.
So, I never knew that this is what you expected of responsibility. We are now living in a society where because there is so much changes that have happened, that what role, who is expected to play, traditionally it was quite clear, but now it is not so clear. I was in Seattle and one devotee was telling me that, he and his wife, both of them work in office and he says, my wife often faces a lot of gender discrimination in the workplace and when she comes back, she is very upset and he says that I was reading a purport of Prabhupada, where Prabhupada says that, after the husband works very hard and comes back from a tired day’s workplace and when the wife comes, she speaks some soft, soothing words and the husband’s anxiety is relieved.
So, he said, every day when I come back home, my wife is agitated and I have to pacify her. So, he said, who is playing what role over here? So, the thing is that society has changed a lot. So, now it is that, because society has changed, it is not that we don’t have stereotypes.
There are certain, I am not using the word stereotype in a negative sense, there are certain expectations of what a role is meant to be. But, that particular, our real life does not conform to that role because society has changed. So, each person in a relationship may have different expectations of what the role is.
So, unless the expectations are clarified, then we may offer value judgemental statements. Like yesterday this question was raised, how to be non-judgemental. So, non-judgemental means, become more specific of what was expected and what was not done.
So, don’t give abstract evaluations. You are irresponsible, you are insensitive, you are domineering, you do politics. You do politics? What do you mean by politics? No, you gave that service to that person and that person belongs to your group.
No, I gave that service because that person is good at that service. So, when we give abstract evaluations like that, it simply polarises. So, being sensitive means avoiding abstract generalisations and giving specific points.
If you are specific, then the specific points can be discussed. But if you are not specific, then all that happens is people just get alienated, people get polarised. Go ahead, please.
So, now with respect to sensitive, just two points, I’ll conclude this, that sometimes I want to be sensitive, so I won’t get angry or I won’t speak harshly, I won’t yell at someone. Negative resolutions are actually very, very difficult to keep. Instead of that, it is always better to make a positive resolution.
A positive resolution is that, say, I will respect everyone’s right to be spoken to politely. If somebody is upset with us, even if we have made a mistake, now we would very much like that person to speak politely to us. Just as we would like to be spoken to politely, so the other person would also like to be spoken to politely.
So, if we think of it in this term, this is much more positive, yes, I will speak politely, I will respect everyone’s right to be spoken to politely. Then, it becomes easier for us. It’s a small mental switch, but that mental switch, it’s okay.
It’s not that I am repressing my emotion. Why should I repress my emotion? This person has done wrong, and I have to tell them that it’s wrong. I won’t repress my emotion.
It’s not repressing the emotion, it’s that this person is also individual, they also have feelings, and they are also souls, they are human beings, they deserve to be spoken to politely. So, I will respect everyone’s right to be spoken to politely. So, sensitivity is not about repressing our emotions.
It is about, we have to find a balance between, one extreme is repressing our emotions, the other is dismissing other’s emotions. We respect other people’s emotions, and then we respect our own emotions also, and we speak in a way that both are taken care of. So, when we have this idea that I will respect everyone’s right to be spoken to politely, then by that we will be able to move forward and we will be able to understand better how we can take things forward.
So, this is one way of being sensitive. Another way is, can you go ahead please, that when we have to deal with some conflict, some person has done something wrong, and we think this person is very different from us, like yesterday the point was there that, do people have very different perspectives? Yes, but even if there are 99% differences, begin with the 1% similarity. 1% similarity.
When we begin with that, then we start with a ground of agreement. Say for example, we want Janmashtami to be done in the temple, and we are part of the team. So, we feel that for Janmashtami we should have a big drama.
Somebody else says, we don’t have space in the temple to do a drama. We will just have some pooja, some abhishek of Kalash, and then we can raise funds for that. Now, these two people may have a strong disagreement on what to do.
Now, if we say, this is what we should do. Actually, our temple needs funds, we want to raise funds through Kalash, we can raise funds. Ultimately, the other person says, we want to build a community.
If our congregation children do dramas, they all participate, they can all do the drama and we will all come closer to each other. Now, both of them ultimately have the same purpose, that is to serve Krishna. That is to glorify Krishna.
So, we begin with the 1% similarity. First, they are also trying to serve Krishna, I am also trying to serve Krishna. Now, in particular situations, a particular course of action may be chosen.
But, if we just focus on, you never listen to me, you always focus on having your way only. But, ultimately, their way is also for serving Krishna. For us, what happens, whenever there are differences with someone, those differences overshadow our perception.
And all that we see is, that person did not listen to me, that person opposed me, that person dominated their own way. And then, when that difference overshadows the many things that are common, we forget them. On Shri Prabhupada, when he came back to India for the first time with his disciples, he introduced some of his disciples to his God brothers.
And, some of his God brothers were very appreciative. But, some of his God brothers were a little, you could say, they started telling Prabhupada’s disciples that, actually, Bhakti Sannyas Swami gives only basic teachings. You come to us, we will tell you those more advanced things about Radhakrishna.
And, when they started pulling some of Prabhupada’s disciples, Prabhupada became very upset. And, his one particular God brother, Prabhupada very strongly spoke about him. He said, he’s an envious snake.
Don’t ever go near him. And, then, what happens for, at that time, Prabhupada’s words were like the word of God for devotees. So, that, oh, he’s like an envious snake, he’s like an envious snake, he’s like an envious snake.
And, then, what happened, some devotees went and told him also. Now, Prabhupada said like that, now, he was very upset by that. And, then, eventually, he fell sick and he passed away.
And, when he passed away, then devotees came and told, Prabhupada, where did he go? Devotees sometimes get something like a perverse glee, okay, which hell did he go to? What was his destination? Where did he go to? And, Prabhupada was very great. Prabhupada said, he went back to the spiritual world. Devotees were shocked.
Prabhupada, you said he was an envious snake. Prabhupada said, he served my spiritual master through his life, and my spiritual master is very powerful. So, for protecting his disciples, Prabhupada spoke that statement contextually.
He is an envious snake. But, that did not blind Prabhupada to the big picture. He had also taken sannyas at a young age.
He had dedicated his life to Prabhupada’s mission. And, he had followed the vows of serving his spiritual master faithfully. So, sometimes what happens, we look at one particular flaw in a person, and we let that define our entire perception of the person.
Now, from our perspective, from Prabhupada’s perspective, at that time, he had to protect his disciples. And, he spoke strongly to protect his disciples. But, in his consciousness, he did not see that God Brother simply in a negative way.
He saw that God Brother also as a disciple of his spiritual master. So, what happens when we get overrun by emotions, our emotions distort our perspective. And, then when the emotions distort our perspective, we might actually have 99% similarity and 1% difference.
But, that 1% difference is what we see in the whole person. This person is like this, this person is like this, this person is like this. So, now here we are talking about not just that we should be sensitive, but how can we develop the sensitivity by seeing the full person, not just the area where they disagree with us.
So, we will conclude this with an exercise. Can you go ahead? So, again, if you want to make a resolve, I will never criticise anyone. Now, that is something which is very difficult to follow.
And, you might just feel repressed. This person has been so bad to me, how can I not criticise? But, a more let your first thought about that person be positive. That means that we may have negative interactions with that person, we may have negative opinions about that person, but let the first thought be positive.
So, I heard recently that Prabhupada told the gurukul teachers in Vrindavan and Dallas that some students are very mischievous and they do this wrong, that wrong, that wrong, that wrong. So, what happens is that the teachers have to find faults. So, when the devotees went to Prabhupada, Prabhupada told them that when that boy comes to gurukul tomorrow, tell him you are breathing so nicely.
What breathing? What is nice about breathing? Appreciate something. So, let the first thought about the person, about whoever we see, be positive. So, this will, we will conclude with one exercise now.
Can you go ahead please? Yeah. So, for three people with whom, this you can, you can use your phone or book or something and you can write this down. Think of three people with whom you interact regularly and your interactions with them tend to be spicy, where you tend to think negatively, they tend to think negatively about you and write down three good qualities about them, which you normally overlook.
So, the idea is even if we decide, hey, it is nice, let my first thought about others be positive, but when we see them, that thought will not come into it. So, unless we have consciously written it down. So, we can have about three to three minutes for this.
We can just write down three thoughts and next time when you see that person, next time when you interact with that person, try to think of that, those qualities. One minute more. How many of you have completed? Okay, one minute more, you can complete it.
So, I will summarise what I spoke. Are there any one or two reflections? We are already over time, but is any one or two reflection points anyone like to share till now? Is it a question or reflection? Reflection come question. Okay.
We were talking about how when we give them understanding about why reflection is important and we didn’t know. So, based on that, is it, I was just wondering in my head, say, is the outreach programme rather than preaching programme? Oh, definitely. There are many words like that.
Preaching is one word. Indra Dundar Maharaj had his diary of travelling preacher. Now he has changed the diary of a travelling monk.
So, even sin is not a very good word. I was with an interfaith conference and they said, it is sinful to use the word sinful. So, preaching is not so good.
Even cult, cult more or less, Prabhupada would use it, but we have almost retired it now. We don’t use it at all. All the Prabhupada used it frequently.
There are several words like that. Oh, very strong language, but in Prabhupada’s time it did not have. It just meant a group of people.
Prabhupada used it quite freely, but now it doesn’t have. Cult, preaching, then, sin is there, as I mentioned, hell. Hell is also, people don’t, it is quite alienating for people.
And, I am sorry, yeah, people prefer the word spirituality to religion. I think that is the whole question which I will probably discuss in the, we can discuss about it. Yeah, but we can use the word spiritual instead of religion as much as possible.
In fact, if you don’t want the word spiritual, we could use the word tradition. In our tradition, we do like this. Traditions are respected very much.
In my religion, I don’t talk about religion. In religion, somehow it has got a negative connotation. It has become sectarian.
it is, because words have particular connotations in people’s minds. And unless we are aware of those connotations, we will unnecessarily give people different impressions than what we wanted to give them. So, the meanings of words also change with time.
I think there are two different things. One is, there are words which have negative connotations and there are words which are not comprehensible. So, pastime is, what do you mean by pastime? There are many words like that, which people just don’t understand.
Now, the word ecstasy also is a drug called ecstasy. So, ecstasy, that word is better not used, especially when we are talking with outside people. Yeah, scripture is, actually, yeah, you could use it, but it has too many religious connotations.
You could use wisdom texts, wisdom texts like the Bhagavad Gita. So, generally, if we use words that don’t speak about, that don’t come up as sectarian or domineering or that kind of thing, so instead of rituals, use the word practises or ceremony. Ceremony is also good, but practises is very good.
There is no problem at all. In fact, instead of absolute truth, the word preferred is ultimate reality. Absolute truth sounds like, you think you know the absolute truth? The word absolute itself has a negative connotation to it.
So, absolute truth is ultimate reality. So, we are looking for ultimate reality. So, that way, we can learn to use, in academic circles or in colleges, instead of soul, use the word consciousness.
The same thing, but the focus is different. Instead of, I was with Bhakti Marg Maharaj. Bhakti Marg Maharaj actually, he walks across Canada.
He is famous. He is known as the walking monk. So, he was telling that when he meets people, may God bless you, people don’t like to use the word God.
So, he says, may the source be with you. Now, the source is ultimately Krishna is the source, but he is playing around in the Star Wars series, may the force be with you. So, may the force be with you, may the force be with you, may the source be with you.
Sometimes, we have to make sure that our communication isn’t alienated with people. I remember, I was giving a class here in Australia only, maybe 2-3 years ago, a corporate programme was there. So, mostly Australians were there and I said that, somebody asked me, how did you choose the spiritual path? So, then I spoke, after I passed out from my college.
I said, looking strangely, pass out means fall unconscious, you know. So, in India, pass out means graduate. We have to be sensitive, yes.
Anything else? Oh, yeah, definitely. definitely. Outreach is, nobody wants to be preached to.
You are going to sit on a high pedestal and you are going to instruct me what to do. No, I don’t want to do that. Oh, yeah, definitely.
In fact, you know, the Catholic Church has a whole commentary that retranslates the Bible every 25 years. Because words keep, the meanings keep changing. So, we need to be sensitive to the words of, how words are used at particular times.
should, should, must. Yes, should, should not be used. So, should and must are not so desirable.
Must also is a, we need to do this or we can do this. It’s better to do this. Some of the word should is, who are you to tell me should.
It becomes like that. Yeah, instead of spiritual, use the word non-material. Yeah, I think, see, there are, there are, there is popularity of words.
You consider mindfulness is much more acceptable than meditation. We are having a session of mindfulness. Oh, very much, very good.
We are having a meditation. It seems a little bit otherworldly. We are having a spiritual session.
Okay, okay. That seems a little more otherworldly. We are going to have a religious programme.
No, no, no, not at all. So, you could put them on a spectrum. Religious is widely unacceptable.
Spiritual is much more acceptable. Meditation is, meditation or yoga are much more acceptable than spiritual also. Because many people think that yoga is not really spiritual.
Yoga is for health. Meditation is for the mind. So, and mindfulness is, is very trendy.
If you have a mindfulness programme, you can go anywhere and say, you can have a mindfulness programme. People say, yes, we want to be mindful. Oh, yeah, it’s called SBNR, spiritual but not religious.
So, they say that, we don’t want to be sectarian, we don’t want to be narrow-minded. Since the subject has come up, I’ll just explain this. Who had asked this question to me yesterday? Madhavan Mataji had asked me.
Madhavan Mataji is not here today probably. So, I’ll just say, what, how do we, are you spiritual or religious? Somebody asks us. Now, what do we tell them at that time? So, we may say that, so, are you spiritual or religious? So, basically, as I said, when people use the word religious, they have the idea of either ritualistic or narrow-minded.
They are ritualistic or dogmatic. Dogmatic, this is right, that is wrong. So, ritualistic, when you do things, you don’t even know why you’re doing those things.
You become narrow-minded, you become sectarian. So, people are not interested in religion. That’s what they connote with religion.
Now, this was not the connotation of religion even for 40-50 years ago. Albert Einstein has used the word religious many times. This is a deeply religious outlook I have towards the universe and sense of religious experience that I get when I look at the majesty of the universe, the order in the universe.
But the word has acquired a negative connotation now. So, when they use the word spiritual, their idea is we’re open-minded. We want to learn more about, we want to feel good, we want to get peace, we want to be tolerant, grateful, kind, like that.
So, spiritual has all those connotations. So, the main thing is religious means they think you become narrow-minded because you affiliate with a particular group and then you become close to everything else. I was at an interfaith meeting, so one pastor was telling, we had a programme, a radio show, there was a person who said, I’m a not affiliated with any church, he says, I haven’t yet found any church that agrees with my philosophy.
So, they got the priority wrong, they didn’t go to the church to learn, they already know, is there a church that agrees with me? So, their idea is that they don’t want to become close-minded by affiliating themselves to any particular group. Now, the way I explain it is that, if you consider a mountain, the top of the mountain is spiritual consciousness, the bottom of the mountain is material consciousness, and we want to become spiritual means we want to become, we go to the top of the mountain, see things from a higher perspective. If we naturally go from a higher perspective, we will become more broad-minded, more open, more understanding, all virtues will come.
At the same time, we can’t imagine that we are at the top of the mountain, we have to take a path to go up the mountain, and the path that we take to go up the mountain, that is religion. So, we, if somebody says that, I want to go to the top of the mountain, I will go up mountain, I will I will go up the mountain, I will mountain, mountain, I will go up the mountain, the particular path, and instead of going up the mountain by that path, they keep walking down below the path. So our understanding is that yes, we are following this path, but there are other paths up the mountain also.
There are other paths up the mountain also and Prabhupada appreciated Jesus. He said he is our guru because he had so much love for God that he was ready to give up his life for the service of God. So if a person has so much love, we respect him.
So we acknowledge that love for God can be attained by different paths. So in that sense we are not narrow minded. That this is the only way.
That’s not the attitude. But sometimes in spiritual people say that whatever you follow, you follow that. It’s all relative.
It’s not like that. We can’t say that any and every path will take you up the mountain. Some paths will take you away from the mountain.
Some paths may take you down into a valley also. So we want to be open minded, but we can’t be so open minded that our brain falls out. So there has to be some objective understanding.
So the idea is that we say that we are spiritual and we follow certain practises because if we say we are only spiritual and we say we are not religious, but we dress in a particular way, we have particular prayers, we have particular chants, people will label us as religious because of that. So only when we understand the philosophy and explain the world, there are different paths we accept and we follow this path. But if others follow other paths, we respect that also.
So that way we can focus on we are spiritual. But then people say that all these things are sectarian. So that is, we follow this, but we don’t impose this on everyone else.
This is our way to grow spiritually. So if you put it that way, then people don’t feel so threatened by it. It’s more when people want to say we are religious but not spiritual.
Simply, they don’t want to affiliate themselves with something sectarian. They don’t want to become narrow minded. That is the main concern that people have.
And of course, that’s the positive concern. The negative aspect of that, they don’t want to commit to anything. They say why do I commit to spiritual practise? But it’s like if you want to climb up a mountain, you have to commit to a particular part of the mountain.
Otherwise, how will you get to the top of the mountain? So it’s explained objectively, then it’s understandable. But it’s better to use the word spiritual rather than religious. And if you use the word religious, we explain religion as a means to spiritual consciousness, not just as a set of beliefs or rituals.
Then it becomes more easily understandable. So thank you very much.